Interesting case for comparison between versions.
I don't know enough Japanese to comment on the exact phrasing of the original, but the four English versions I looked at for this scene right now all somewhat differ. (Edit: looked at the raws again. Interesting, the descriptor for the things ([x]-mono) is even more obscured than in the English versions. So I guess the translators were all "just assuming" that it would be "things that I love/like"? Even in the Japanese dub this one word is utterly unintelligible to me, as it perfectly coincides with Yuu starting to yell. I mean, it's clear enough from the context what she means, so I don't think actually knowing the words that were used really matters.)

4S Translation:
Page 29 last panel: Same goes for you, Senpai.
Page 30 first panel: How can you say you hate something I lo- // YOU JERK!

Official Kadokawa/Seven Seas release:
Page 29 last panel: Then I wish you wouldn't...
Page 30 first panel: say you hate something that I [illegible] either. // IDIOT!

Sentai's subtitles for the Anime adaptation:
You should do the same...
... don't tell me you hate the things that I like! // You idiot!

Sentai's dub for the anime:
You should do the same.
Don't tell me you hate all the things that I like about you // Idiot.

(Side note: the next line, which in the original and the first three translations I mentioned is just something along the lines of "Senpai, you idiot! // Senpai no baka!", has been altered to "You're wrong, you hear me?" in the dub. Personally I'd probably just have gone with "You're such a Jerk!", but I think the deviation doesn't diminish any aspect of the narrative, but to me rather adds to it as it fits very well with the character development at the time.)

The french translation lacks a relevant aspect, unfortunately, as translations are so often want to do.

By the way, how did the french guys translate the much-discussed clubroom-honorifics-scene if they generally omitted them?

last edited at Mar 7, 2020 8:05PM

Hot damn Jesus Touko's amazing in that scene in the Japanese dub, incredibly soft. I like how Luci Christian does it, but this is on another level, props to not only the actress, but also the recording staff. Not everyone would so confidently go to ASMR-levels of whisper. Makes me want to pick up my Japanese lessons again, because I also noticed that reading along did allow me to understand what they were saying. Which is nice. Maybe I'll make it two rewatches, one for each language version ;)

One of the scenes that earned YagaKimi my top spot. We far too rarely see actual intimacy in romantic anime.

Not being bold enough is incidentally still the biggest issue dubs in German and English face (IMO): they aren't bold enough in being confidently imperfect, aside from maybe being not accurate enough, depending on who you ask. Especially in German dubs everything must always sound unnaturally properly pronounced, no unclear pronunciation, far too little idiomatic omission. Writers, actors, directors, technicians and especially producers should take a few more notes from their book.

And don't worry, you don't have to ever watch that dub, or any other, ever again. I'll gladly catch that bullet for you and most likely tell you how they didn't change a thing.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 7:39PM

It's a fantastic scene in either version and I think it shows how adding animation and the right palette of colour can enhance the experience.

Speaking of anime enhancing the experience: Episode 2, Heating Up, from 14:15 to 14:55 notice how the score precisely follows the scene's dynamic, reaching a major cadence at Yuu realizing that her first kiss was actually not bad, which could serve as a "upbeat" ending, but then slightly diminishing and returning to its contemplative minor motive and eventually leaving it unfinished, without a proper ending chord, just as she feels unfulfilled by the kiss she's thinking about. That's by far not the only scene in which I found the score to be really good at enhancing a scene.

Also: There is a home video dub selection on Sentai's stream now, for the first three episodes only so far. The rest will release weekly until March 15th.

For one thing it provides subtitles for on-screen graphics like book, movie and song titles. Don't think that was necessary. The cellphone texts were resubbed as well. In terms of the dub I haven't noticed any changes (obviously), especially not with regards to something as substantial as how they address each other. I'll definitely go and see if they somehow altered the hotly-debated clubroom scene once it's released, but considering they haven't made alterations to earlier episodes I don't think they turned that one on its head yet again. Or maybe I'll just rewatch it entirely once the home video release's dub is fully available in March. That sounds like a good plan.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 7:00PM

Having genuflected more than sufficiently in the direction of the very creditable YagaKimi anime, I will say that my basic personal opinion remains, for me, according to my personal taste, subjectively speaking for me and for me alone: fuck anime (with some exceptions), and especially fuck dubs.

Comics/manga rules! (Sorry—roolz!)

IMHO.

Yeah, well, y'know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man. insert big lebwoski meme here

Which is cool.

@Zormau
This thread was faaar beyond 1500 posts when the anime came out. I think we were around page 200 something. The anime did not give this thread any major boost.

Interesting. Had not expected that. Reinforces my point, though, that it was beyond the scope of a script writer's job to read sheer endless forum discussions.

As I already said, the Japanese version had Nakatani Nio (the author of this manga) there giving her input during recordings. So the "interpretation" is as close to what Nakatani envisioned as physically possible. The lines are taken straight from the manga, no translation necessary, so the Japanese version will always be more accurate by default. The worst they do is cut some lines. Therefore the nuance can only be affected by how the seiyuus deliver it, not by a shoddy script.

That may be true for the original anime adaptation. Unfortunately that one's not accessible for anyone who can't understand spoken Japanese. Add subtitles and you have a translation. Notice also that while the spoken lines may be identical to what's been said in the manga, the subtitles already deviate from the official Seven Seas/Kadokawa release, the Mangadex translation as well as the 4s translation, which in turn deviate from one another.

We know that the English script writer and director didn't read the manga, because of their attrocious failure with the first and last name business that they had to bend backwards for to somehow work through when the episode came up where it actively ruined the plot point. Such a short-sighted mistake is impossible if even one of them had read a single volume ahead in the manga. Such sloppiness is all over the YagaKimi dub, so the only argument you typically use is "I didnt mind it though" because you don't care about the specifics of the story and ignore all artistic integrity.

Let's just not go there again, alright?

@BV
Ask ten people how to make a good dub and you'll have twenty ideas.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 4:40PM

That's not how dubbing works. There is a script writer who takes the translation and adjusts it to be more palatable for the American audience. Then they work with the VAs to adjust the dialogue to the lip movements. Usually they don't do much research and just look at the episodes, especially because this one was almost simulcast (I think 1-2 week delays?). They didn't even wait for the complete anime to be out, unlike the Japanese production obviously, which had the entire planned script during recordings.

Direction is more sparse and the director obviously doesn't know what the original really tried to convey and just gives their own interpretation. The mix of having a tight deadline and having all these barriers makes it nearly a miracle for a simulcast dub to be any good at all.

While I've not done lipsync dubbing scripts, only VO/overdubs, that is largely correct from my experience.
From what I've learned it's rather common not to have access to the entire show/original script in its final form when the translated scripts for the first episodes are to be written, unless the original's script is likewise complete - then there's little reason not to pass it along. Scripting means adjusting the length of the takes to fit in the given original audio's timeframe, as well as fitting lip flaps where applicable (should be a secondary concern in Anime, is something to be considered more closely when doing large scale live action movie projects) and most importantly converting a rough, often rather literal translation into a text that sounds more natural in the target language (which many, many dubs, in all languages, have failed at in the past and which many will continue to do for some time in the future) and ironing out errors the translators may have missed or introduced. Research is also part of the procedure, but a 22 minute script should probably be done in two days at most (three to four if working from the foreign original instead of a properly encoded raw translation), which does not allow for much time ahead, so reading a couple thousand posts in various online forums is out, I'm afraid (I'd guess there might have been 1000-1500 posts in this thread before the anime first aired, assuming it grew a lot after that started). Reading the source material could probably be done, if provided to the author and not too comprehensive. Reading YagaKimi as far as it was released would probably have been manageable at the time.

However, while it was simulcast with a 3 week delay (IIRC), that does not mean that work on the dub only commenced after the original aired - turnaround times were quite a bit longer where I worked, though it also depends on how many controlling instances you have that need to re-check each step. Both the streaming service as well as the guys responsible for the script and dub (in this case: Sentai Filmworks and their subsidiaries on both counts) receive the (usually heavily watermarked if pre-release) media considerably before the airdate and are also generally done with at least two weeks of buffer. Could be different with anime.

The key point is that it's a different interpretation. It is not, and shouldn't be, as extreme as putting on a theatrical performance of a play, in which case the results will often vary wildly, even if the spoken text is identical, but there will still be slight differences in tone, nuance and emphasis between different directors and actors.
Script writers, voice actors and (voice) directors ultimately are artists usually interpreting something originally written by someone else (cf. classical music).
Thus I'd rather judge both works on their individual merits first rather than start by comparing the first interpretation (remember, even the original dub is a script being interpreted by actors and a director) with its successor(s) and get hung up on the differences. My question isn't "is it different?" but rather "is it good?" and "do I like this?", which becomes nigh on impossible to distinguish once you've seen or read another interpretation beforehand. Even so it's perfectly legitimate to say "I like this interpretation better".

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 4:06PM

I've grown used to her quickly, but I think neither actress protrayed Yuu the way I expected her to sound when I read the manga. Oftentimes the anime completely overwrites my impression or I grow to like it, but in this rare case I just don't think either did her real justice.

Yeah, it's rough when that happens, but that's the crux of any adaptation to a different medium.

Bebop is a once in a decade miracle dub where everything came together incredibly well. You will barely find anyone who is not a diehard dub hater that denies it was good. It is not representative of its time, nor of the genere overall.

True, and while CB stands above its contemporaries immeasurably more, Black Lagoon isn't representative of its time either, they're both probably by far the best examples of their times (maybe with The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya coming close to BL).

Spice & Wolf holds up phenomanally... Though I guess I haven watched the English version in years. The Japanese dub at the very least is still as amazing as it was back then. Spice & Wolf deserved a season 3, 4, 5 ,6 and whatever else it needs to catch up to the novels. Such a shame that Japan has shit taste.

Maybe you should rewatch it. It's not bad at all, just takes a little getting used to it again, and overall it was a superb experience rewatching it after a few years. Also yes, please, gods of anime, give us seasons 3 through 8 (assuming they do 2 LN volumes per season again and jumping off after vol. 16 or 17). J Michael Tatum and Brina Palencia are also still very much in business and play so nicely off each other...

As we already established last time we "discussed" this topic, you just got used to one side of the equation. Because you are biased towards English dubs after mostly only listening to them (and understanding them), the Japanese dubs seem outlandish to you. You can't pick up the ways their voices work or how well acted they are because of too little exposure. I'll just flat out say it, the Japanese cast is more experienced in the field and far more talented. They also don't have to work with shoddy scripts.

Completely fair assessment, nothing to argue against there. If I were able to properly understand Japanese dubs without needing to rely on subtitles, I'm pretty sure I'd be watching that way.

If that was Tia Ballard's best performance I don't want to hear her worst one. Blegh.

Yeah, YMMV. It sounded quite different from many of her previous gigs and I loved it. She's more often used for calm, and timid, sweet young women (cf. ex. Sakura Quest), which she does well, but didn't make such an impression on me with.

Almost all English dubs pre-2010 are horrible. Don't pretend otherwise.

If you want to set 2010 as the mark, go ahead. I couldn't think of a good English dub from 2000-2006 at all, before Black Lagoon (2007, oh if only Tabitha St. Germain still did anime) and Spice and Wolf (2009, which I don't think has aged as well, just rewatched it last month). Before that I'd call Cowboy Bebop (1999) the benchmark dub.

Little anecdote: earlier this week I hopped into the first episode of The Slayers (1995) on Funimation. Man, that's some retro stuff. It looks, sounds and feels like a cheap homebrew VHS recording of an episode that once aired on TV, and the script and voice acting are about as cringe-inducing as you'd expect.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 12:03PM

Suit yourselves, I guess ;)

@BD I really get that attitude towards availability, used to be my stance as well (would still be if VPN weren't an option). I've chosen for myself that I'd like to at least in some way support the creation of the media I enjoy (which is chiefly anime), but I'd much rather also be able to support a properly licensed service for my region. If I weren't an "English dub" kinda guy, I'd be mostly capable of doing so, Crunchyroll, Netflix, Amazon and hidive (also available in Germany with a fraction of their US catalog) have a fair selection of subs (and in Netflix's case hideous German dubs).

Curiously, the way Japanese Seiyu sound often rubs me the wrong way, so I generally find anime more palatable in English. And since it's not my native tongue either, many English dubs (at least those made after 2006 as well as a select few from before that - the quality has improved massively since the 90s) don't feel as bad to me as German dubs generally do.
Bloom into You I found a particularly well acted dub and I much preferred the voices of Tia Ballard (Yuu, probably her best performance to date), Luci Christian (Touko), Shanae'a Moore (Sayaka) and Clint Bickham (Maki) over the Japanese version.

@Lilliwyt funny, I couldn't quite warm up to that dub. I don't think it's bad by any means, but I wouldn't count it among the better ones.

Edit: I don't think there's an official English dub for any of the Monogatari series, Blastaar, so it was probably a fanmade dub. Netflix has a German dub, and I couldn't take that one for more than 2 minutes.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 10:31AM

It's available legally on hidive (Sentai's own streaming service), provided you either live in the US or convince the website that you do.
I'd rather use paid "as close to legal as possible" streaming (vpn+"licenced" service) than illegal streaming (for which you obviously want a VPN as well).

@Blastaar they didn't include a new English dub in the Blu-Ray release, did they? (assuming you got a US-release Blu-Ray from Sentai)

About the adaptation: I can't judge how close the subtitled, let alone the Japanese version, is to the original (which I've likewise also only read in a few different translations) in terms of word choice and phrasing. I know that the English dub has taken some liberties and significantly altered some parts (as has been discussed to death, I know, let's not rehash that), which I must say I didn't personally mind. Since I read the manga only after I'd seen the anime (and 95% only in dub as well) my inner voice direction and acting for the manga's dialogues was already influenced by their interpretations and as such I didn't find it to be that much different in tone, but I do think you could make a point that Yuu and Sayaka's interactions come across as a bit more sharp and pointed in the anime.

Content wise I'd say it was a very faithful adaptation of chapters 1-24, with the ending of the aquarium being altered (IIRC in cooperation with Nakatani herself) to make the anime feel a bit more rounded by itself, with no second season on the horizon. I also think that they captured the artstyle and visual quality rather well in most situations. I for one loved the lush skies, considered making a screenshot from the stone-hopping scene of episode 6 (or was it 7?) my PC wallpaper for a while.

I think the scenes involving physical contact and intimacy came out really well in the anime, as they did in the manga, obviously.

That pre-aquarium train station scene was, as you said, a lot clearer in showing what manner of dark place Touko's mind had wandered to, simply due to the "arriving train" noises (which, even if present, would come across way less oppressive in written form). The manga isn't really subtle here either, though, so I think the extra emphasis is warranted. Lots of negative space in the images (pp. 21, 22), downtrodden mood and Touko's standing really close to the edge. Seeing her reaction to Yuu's message in motion, however, certainly added to the experience for me.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 9:04AM

They could simply do the voice acting abroad, too. Extremely common practice in the video game industry at least. Recording studios are everywhere and the Internet exists to transfer data.

It's not always quite so easy. Some companies are very protective of their material and would rather not transfer it to new partners or studios they don't usually work with half a globe away. Much of that is paranoia, and it's a rather rare phenomenon, but leaks are an unfortunate fact of the entertainment industry.

That normally only applies to really, really high profile stuff, though. The place where I work was involved in the German dubbed version of the latest Game of Thrones seasons, and due to previous leaks by third parties they were only given poor materials to work with, which does not make it easier for the voice actors (and in our case, also the script writers).

Another potential issue is that different studios get different results, as every setup is slightly different - be it the microphone, software or just the layout of the recording room. Additionally, from what I remember, it's not uncommon for anime dubs (yes, the Japanese version is technically a dub as well) to be recorded with multiple VAs in the room at the same time.

I'd advocate waiting until she has time to come to Japan for it rather than doing it abroad. If the producers make it worth her time, she should be able to readily squeeze the entire recording into one semester break.

Mind you, I probably won't peruse the Japanese dub either way, and just wait for the English dub release, especially if Sentai end up releasing it with a mere two week delay yet again. Still, I think it'd be better for the Japanese version if they take their time with the recording.

last edited at Dec 7, 2019 9:05AM

Considering what ends up happening in the manga ending it kind of makes this doujin funny. https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/an_evening_breeze_blows_in

I thought that one was pretty decent and funny in its own right. One of, like, only three hentai doujinshi for YagaKimi in existence?

I think it captured the character dynamic quite well, although the author obviously had to remove some social and mental restrictions to have them go all out already.

Now if only the art of that doujin had been on par with Nakatani's original. Come on, one can dream, right?

My two cents on rings: They are bands of (usually precious) metal. As such their objective value is determined mostly by the materials chosen and the craftsmanship that went into it.

Any further value is purely up to the individual person. If you want an engagement ring, hope you can afford it. If you don't want one at all, good for you. My wife and I got rings when we got engaged. Not your typical embellished engagement rings, though, but simple gold bands with a nice "hammer" finish that's by now mostly worn off. We knew we'd be using them as wedding rings eventually, because who says you can't just choose a plain engagement ring and, for example, switch it to the other hand when you get married?

Specifically about their rings I'd say that they're not really "engagement rings", they can't (yet) get married either way and at least Yuu hasn't come out to her family yet. So they're not even "official" yet.

last edited at Oct 1, 2019 7:31AM

This isn't a coming out story. This is about two persons learning to love and finding their place.

You're disappointed about something the author never intended to talk about.

Well now that we can speak with hindsight: Obviously. Yet I still somehow wasn't "detracted" from my expectation.

I'd also say that "finding your place" should definitely include being comfortable and confident enough about your identity to let your family in on your relationship.

But, uh, I'd rather discuss this once we don't need spoiler tags anymore. So can we put this off a few days?

last edited at Sep 28, 2019 1:45PM

So we got a final chapter. It's okay, I guess.

I am a little bit disappointed, but hey, what we got overall was nothing short of spectacular, and me not getting everything I'd hoped for from the ending is really a small price to pay.

Sure, it'd be hard to write two or three coming-out scenes (famil(ies), friends) and convey them in just one chapter, but I was convinced Nakatani would take that in stride and at least give us one.
I am really disappointed that at least two years have passed and they've been keeping their relationship a secret from at least Yuu's parents for the whole time. (Timeframe deduced from the former second-years now being in college and the former first-years apparently being done with school as well.) I was certain the plot thread that had been initiated by Rei contemplating how a coming-out would play out would eventually be followed up on.
Now I know, the Japanese are a lot more reserved towards PDA than us westerners anyway, but still... You'd probably have to be utterly dense not to notice that something intimate's going on for two whole years. Not sure how long the friends and Rei have known about it - considering that Natsuki hasn't even seen Touko yet - but it would have been nigh on impossible to keep it from them.

That timing is pretty convenient, about a week before the final chapter...

Also kinda makes me even more hopeful that we'll get a second season.

Wonder if we'll get home video audio on hidive, if they redid any of it. They have updated the available streaming audio in the past I think.

Also yay, Golden Time dub.

last edited at Sep 18, 2019 12:33PM

With all due respect, Zormau, your posts are reasoned and articulate—and often rather delusional.

Hehe, no argument there, especially in this case.

Chapter 39 is prior to Yuu and Touko’s reconciliation. It is beyond unlikely that Touko would consult Rei before meeting Yuu in those circumstances.

Then in Chapter 42, Rei sees Yuu run off to meet Touko and thinks, “Lately she’s gone from being down in the dumps to walking on air. Busy girl.” Alternate translation: “Her mood has been up and down lately.” Clearly indicating that Rei doesn’t know what is affecting Yuu’s mood.

I had forgotten that one, thanks for the reminder. Yeah, that blows my theory, fun as it was, out of the water.

And Japanese has an excellent way of communicating the nuances of naming and familiarity, one that does not require inventing a nickname: honorifics. Sayaka, for instance, calling Yuu “Koito-san” is not the same as calling her “Koito.”

While you're right, I think it's a pretty decent compromise between flow and authenticity. Everyone will draw their line somewhere else. I also think nuances between, for example, Sayaka calling Yuu "Koito" instead of "Koito-San" can be well enough expressed through tone.

I think a small part of my aversion to honorifics probably stems from how much of a meme they've often become in English. It might be a worthwhile endeavour to try and take them back from the "notice me senpai" crowd and use them for more earnest experiences again, but I don't think that's my battle to fight.

Translate, of course, in any way that makes your feelings tingle. Be not surprised when others remain markedly un-tingled, however.

Nothing's gonna work as well for everyone, yeah.

It's highly unlikely, but not impossible.

If it's not confirmed or denied it's totally gonna be my headcanon.

Ch. 39

I don't think Rei appeared in that chapter? I just re-read it to find her, but didn't see her anywhere?

No, she didn't, you're right.

The chapter starts with Yuu laying in bed while Rei's having a long phone call in the next room and the murmur is keeping her awake - or rather, that's her excuse for not being able to sleep. Yuu assumes that she's on the phone with Hiro, but I'm not convinced. Touko's not a bad judge of character, so she might have figured that she could entrust herself to Rei. It's a stretch, but isn't that what fan theories are for?

^ I'm sorry, the Wi-Fi sucks here in Lloret, can you just tell me what the vid says, since I can't wait to return home to find out.

Don't Yuu worry, it's just a laugh track on YT, from the HollywoodLaughTracks selection.

Yay, I'mma make another post towards the very emotive discussion we had.
It's gonna be a big concession, so pls don't be mad.

I've mulled it over and over in my head and come to some conclusions. Took a while, but I'm kinda stubborn that way.
While I still find the dub to flow more nicely due to the omission of Japanese address habits, I had forgotten that they can add quite a lot of depth to a story. It's just that I didn't, and still don't necessarily, consider BiY that way.
That isn't to say that I don't acknowledge that proper address habits (surnames and first names, that is, I'm not budging on honorifics themselves) can add another subtle layer to characters and interactions. I was effectively reminded of this yesterday when I rewatched an episode of Hyouka on a whim, where the English dub does deliberately employ first names and family names to emphasize the relationship dynamics between the characters throughout the story. Now I'd say that Hyouka is much more deeply steeped in Japanese culture and lore, but the point stands: it can add so much that I was neglecting.
Coming back the the Manga at hand: If I go through with my editing project, I'll definitely do the first few chapters with both a first-name as well as a more authentic approach (sans honorifics), just to see if they're really that different to me. Spoilers: I think it'll work.
It wouldn't solve all the issues. The StuCo scene in Ch. 12 would work right off the bat. "Touko-Senpai" could, for the most part, become just "Touko", the few times that actually happens. A name-substituting or lone-standing "Senpai" is usually mostly filler or an address and can probably be replaced with either the surname, a different idiomatic filler or a pronoun. For the finale of Ch. 44, however, I can't quite see a better solution than a nickname. I mean, in that situation a nickname would probably work since they are lovers and it was an intimate situation... but still, unless it's foreshadowed in Ch. 12, it's not quite as elegant (which I think can be done without much issue).

Thoughts? (pray for my soul...)

Also I have another theory for the final chapter: They're coming out to Yuu's family, but Rei already knows and does her best to move it along swimmingly. Not only has Rei put two and two together herself, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was on the phone with Touko that night at the start of Ch. 39, not Hiro.

last edited at Sep 11, 2019 4:23PM

and then they intertwined fingers.

Yep. Things got really lewd this time around.

You were so focused on if Yuu could, you never stopped to as if Yuu should.

Don't know about you, but I was always convinced that Yuu should, and in this latest chapter we finally got to see that Yuu could.

Just trying to kinda take it back to topic.

No, they don't, because the context has been completely changed and it doesn't match the essence of original. So no, they do not get the gist of it, because here, the nuance has been removed and butchered.

Honorifics are the opposite of nuance to me. They're about as in-your-face as it gets. Hence "hierarchy is expressed differently in English, yet it still exists". Sure, that argument is irrelevant if you want the story to remain as specifically Japanese as you do, as much linguistically as culturally.

It's not. It would be if it was localization done right, but it isn't. We aren't arguing about doing localization or not. We're arguing whatever that localization was done well or not. And choice between well done localization and poorly done one is not "apples and oranges". As BugDevil said, it's pretty clearly case of you simply liking it and defending it despite its flaws.

This is very important: I don't like it despite the "flaws", as you call them. I love it for them. They immeasurably improved my watching experience.

Because you don't care about Japanese culture and are more than willing to remove it from the work.

Now that's coming off a little strong and hostile, don't you think?

You're ignoring that even if you perfectly follow sociolinguistic rules of the target language, the story still takes place specifically in Japan, so you can't change the norms to fit target audience and then hand wave the fact, they don't match anymore to what was presented in original story. No matter how much you want it to, it doesn't reflect original context anymore.

Right. So would you like me to rewrite a chapter and actually not "reflect the original context anymore"? That would certainly be an interesting experiment. It could be set it in an Austrian University, different continent, age range and school type, that should make for an interesting context, you know, because it apparently makes no difference if I "misrepresent" one aspect or the entirety of it.

That would be a monstrous thing to do, which is how you and Gude have been portraying the existing dub's script.
It's also what modern theater people do all the time.
"What, the Magic Flute is set in a fictional, religiously-inspired fantasy world with magic? Let's put it in a late 20th Century German city. Papageno the bird catcher is now a burnt-out businessman, Monostatos the (emphatically black) African slave is now a white biker wearing black leather."
Come to think of it, that was actually a fun interpretation to watch and listen to, despite being really offensive to the purists.

Yes. I expect to get experience as close to original as possible. You just want to read something that flows well and don't care if original story had to be changed in the process.

I'd add "slightly" to "changed", but yes. Flow is more important to me, as long as the character, message and feel of the story remains unchanged.

But you do you. It's clear nothing we tell you, will ever change your mind. It's a bit scary that you or people like you might be working on some localizations in the future.

You yourself probably need not worry about me. I'll only be localising works into German, at least professionally. And believe you me, what we currently have is about as terrible as bad-to-average English localisations from fifteen years ago.
Besides, if the market or client decides that localisations are appreciated more the way you like them, that's what we'll start delivering. I don't know if there have been any studies on that, and due to cohort effects the results might be of limited use for companies aiming for broad audiences, but we'll do what the market decides.

Now that is rich. You first preach how translation should do all work for reader/watcher and make it as in line with sociolinguistic rules of the target audience as possible, but now when said translation fucked up something, you're backpedaling and saying the audience should figure out how to make sense of it?

The debate about this scene is one I really can't win, and never really could. You've all argued the point quite well, so I'll concede that the scene will never work as smoothly as the original did.
When I first watched it (before I'd read the manga), I immediately caught on to what the original context of this scene and the one before had been. It was clear that the scene had been constructed around the way Touko and Yuu address each other (or rather, how Touko addresses Yuu), and that they'd had to rewrite it since they'd been using first names from the start. This definitely reinforces your point that it did not quite work out by itself. I'm probably contradicting previous assertions I'd made. I admit that I'm backpedalling in this case.
As mentioned before, I was and still am willing to have this scene not work out quite as well, considering how much more I enjoyed the rest of it.

There is one thing that I would like to remind you all of. You've been on this forum for years, probably been reading Shoujo and Yuri manga for a good portion, if not the better part, of your lives. I haven't.
I'm a former aficionado of all things Japanese, part-time anime and JRPG enthusiast with probably only about a hundred watched shows under my belt.
This means you've been living and breathing this medium and these translations. They're second nature to you. They're completely natural to you. You don't stumble over surnames and honorifics, because you're nearly as used to them as a Japanese person. I do, as do those around me.

Our perspectives are different. Your perspective, of the purist, enthusiast, aficionado, is a very valuable one to have and consider. It is not, however, the only valid one.

I'm obviously not as invested as you are in the purity of the original, and here's why:
I consider "how much did I enjoy it" the ultimate metric to entertainment media. BD can claim that it's irrelevant, but in the end we consume fiction to have a fun or emotional experience. In some cases we appreciate it being weird, foreign or difficult, in other cases we enjoy how polished the experience is.

I'm fairly familiar with Japanese culture as well, don't worry, but I don't find enjoyment from the stories in anime and manga because of their setting. It's not despite it, either. Stories work across cultures. Characters work across cultures. Sure, some elements will be specific, and those can be very important. Linguistic ones, however, rarely make or break a story.

If the alterations in the script actually ruined the dub for you, then I feel honestly sad for you.
Because you were unable to enjoy the one piece of media I enjoyed most in years.
You simply can't please everyone.

If they actually re-dub it with the alterations Gude would like to see, I will absolutely watch that dub as well. If I end up enjoying it as much as I did the first version, I'll happily eat my words. I wouldn't hold my breath, though, for either of those events. That is the one thing that could change my mind.

Anyway. I'm going to do something else now, so would Yuu excuse me...

I had to.

Thanks for the effort. Yuu did gud. I also had to

Edit: Damn now I really want to see this alternative dub. You'd be happy to have the version "as it should be", I'd get to properly test my assertion that I enjoyed the omission of Japanese address formalities. It's a win-win, right?

last edited at Sep 7, 2019 5:37PM

At this point I'd rather see more puns than this tedious back-and-forth over localization, even though the latter is at least nominally on-topic.

I'd say the discussion between Blastaar, Nevri, BD and me is done, so I'll quickly (really) wrap up with Gudetamago and hope the best.

@Gudetamago
A discussion about nuance is not the same as a nuanced discussion. You know that. ;-)

I'd be very curious about what factors brought about our different perspectives, because we disagree on many things in strange ways. We probably shouldn't pursue that train of thought here, though.
It's tempting to draw it out and further enumerate on the hows and whys of what I think, but let's do Nezchan a favour and stop.

Dunno about Yuu, but I think we're done with the discussion anyway.

We should probably REIn in our egos now and appreciate what we got.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 8:52AM