"What's more painful: Getting to taste a spoonful of pudding and then let someone take all pudding away forever from you or never having tasted it in the first place?"

If you speak about sex and intimacy, the latter. It's not even a contest. This is the same reason who people do break-up kisses and last nights together all the time if they are breaking up in amicable terms and not in middle of a household war.

That depends on who you are and what your mental state is. A buddy of mine is going through a fairly amicable divorce right now, but it's kind of broken him. Five years ago, if you'd said this to my face, because of where I was after my last breakup, I would've decked you. (Okay, probably not, because I have better self control than -that-, but I would've wanted to.)

But if we're gonna relate this back to the story, Are you talking about Yuu, or Sayaka? Because Sayaka has both been in love before and metabolized rejection pretty effectively, but this is Yuu's first rodeo, and she's slow to fall in love to begin with. So much so that for most of the series, she wasn't even sure that was what was happening, and we've already seen her starting to convince herself that she was never -actually- in love.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 2:55PM

Notice also that at first Sayaka is in the lead going up the stairs, but for some reason Touko intentionally moves ahead of her so as to be waiting when Sayaka gets there.

I loved this detail. It's really graphic about Touko's state of mind but I struggle to put the impression in words.

Speaking of little details, did anybody notice Touko getting uncomfortable when they talked about yatsuhashi? Looks like she's still got Yuu on the brain.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 2:08PM

So no, my attention to the remarkably methodical and fully developed story structure of YagaKimi absolutely does not lead me to expect something like Citrus.

I... didn't really know what else to say to the paragraph comparing Sayaka to Darth Vader.

Oh come on, I didn't compare Sayaka to Darth Vader, and if you think that was the point, you haven't understood a single damn word I've said through this whole conversation and you -really- should go back to school and take some reading comprehension classes. (Edit: It helps if you finish sentences before moving on, which I did not. Stupid ADD.)

I was talking about story structure, and how, in every story, there is a point at which the central conflict comes to a head.

In a sci-fi action epic, the central conflict is a literal war against bad guys. In romance, it is the relationship between the principle characters. But the details aren't the point, the point is that the author structures the story so that the main goal of the protagonists, which the reader/viewer sympathizes with, is jeopardized so that there is a sense of catharsis when everything works out. I picked an action movie because the stakes and threats are obvious and you can generally assume everybody's seen Star Wars. There aren't many romances that have that kind of universal familiarity.

In fact, I would wager to say there's evidence in the chapter that suggests Touko was oblivious, or at least in denial, up until the moment of truth. When she helps Sayaka with the love charm....I mean her behavior in that scene is a little...irresponsible? If she knows or strongly suspects that she's the subject of Sayaka's feelings. She almost seems amused that Sayaka's even interested in something like that, and it's definitely inconsistent with the "Don't do it" that comes at confession time.

I mean... her entire relationship with Yuu is irresponsible, so that's not exactly a stretch. And this is kind of a loaded topic in my experience because I think people want to believe she's oblivious, and with Yuu I think she is, but I don't think she's toying with Sayaka or something like that either. I guess in simplest terms I think she's convinced the genie will stay in the bottle when it comes to Sayaka's feelings.

Her relationship with Yuu is more oblivious than conciously irresponsible. Yuu lied to her about what she wanted right from the start, and Touko believed her. You can call that naive, but I don't know that irresponsible is the word. But helping Sayaka with a love charm and congratulating her up close when she succeeds...If she knew about Sayaka's feelings, eh, there's just no reason for her to act that way. It'd be...kinda mean, honestly.

I think from what we've seen so far, Touko catches on right before the confession, and that she wasn't convinced of Sayaka's feelings until the moment came.

Slice of life stories still have structure. In fact, Slice of life stories tend to be way more formulaic and episodic about it.

I mean technically a sitcom or CGDCT is a slice of life but that's not what I'm referring to at all. I mean "slice of life" in much more of a 'Western' sense for lack of a better way to put it.

Yeah, I don't understand what you're getting at at all with this. Can you give me an example of the kind of plotless, unstructured slice of life story you think this is supposed to resemble?

Is Macross Delta really different or something? The other series all had really definite narrative arcs!

I brought it up for its triangles, not its narratives. Most the series had pretty meaty triangles, but Delta actually had a rival with 0 chance I think you would have appreciated.

Ohhhh, okay. I thought you were saying Macross is a plotless slice of life story, and I was like whaaaaaaa-

Macross does have pretty meaty love triangles! Hikaru, Myung, and Alto's romantic options featured prominently in the original, Plus, and Frontier respectively. I haven't seen Delta, I can't remember if Zero had a love triangle, (the two sisters? There were two sisters, right? I only watched it once.) and I remember very little of 7 aside from the fact that Basara made me constantly want to punch him.

But leaving aside the fact that none of those relationships are the focal point of the plot, they're also handled pretty differently structurally. Hikaru's story is about growing up, and his transition from a superficial crush on Lynn to a more mature and serious emotional connection to Misa is just one small piece of that journey, but their relationship was built up and developed gradually over the course of the entire series. The same was true for Alto, Ranka, and Cheryl.
Way more times was spent keeping the triangle balanced and showing Alto's growing relationship with both of them.
I'm pretty sure those three just end up in a poly relationship anyway, since Cheryl and Ranka also seem pretty into each other. ;p Then you've got Macross Plus, where you had Myung, Isamu, and Guld, but that was a pretty different dynamic and it was pretty clear though the whole story that Myung only ever really had eyes for Isamu.

I could write an essay on why each of those is different from the situation with YagaKimi, but it really comes down to one basic thing. In those stories, none of those relationships were the -focus- of the story. They were all side-plots to the main narratives, which were about fighter pilots doing fighter pilot things in and out of various war situations. YagaKimi is a -romance- that is explicitly about Yuu and Touko's relationship. We know it's about that because not only is it all over the text and the subtext, It's also all over the metatext and we have Word of God on it from the author herself.

As to why Touko “keeps Sayaka around,” it’s because they’re, you know, friends.

Yeah but... Sakaya is almost definitely not going to be able to stay friends with Touko if/when she gets rejected and I think its pretty likely she'll bail on Student Council too.

I actually agree with you that a rejection will be a considerable strain on their friendship. It's not a foregone conclusion that they can't reconcile it, but it would definitely be difficult. But she definitely won't bail on the student council. That's an obligation, and she's a serious person with a pretty professional personality. Japanese students take organizational duties pretty seriously. (at least the studious ones do.)

Hurrah! The witch is dead! But... will Touko have lingering thoughts of Sayaka when she's gone? Hmmm.

Touko needing some time to deal with the emotional fallout of losing Sayaka (right after Yuu) is another reason I don't think a grand romantic gesture from her makes sense. I could see her exit sparking something like a slow "picking up the pieces" phase where Touko and Yuu begin to start over though.

I mean, what is your idea of a grand romantic gesture? And if she "loses" Sayaka, it will only be -because- she has resolved to get Yuu back. Like I said, I imagine we'll see a turning point in Touko's attitude towards her feelings for Yuu within the next few chapters, which is -why- she'll turn down the confession.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 3:19PM

The problem with Sayaka that I think you're not seeing is that her identity revolves so much around being Touko's perfect platonic wife

What.

ikr? I mean, all that attention given to her developing relationship with the cafe owner (as mentor) is just meaningless, right?

So if Touko tells her, “I’m sorry,” Sayaka just dissolves into ashes, like in that Avengers movie.

Sayaka: Mrs. Nanami, I don't feel so good.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Oh hi Subaru.

Yuu x Touko is the endgame of the series so am not too worried. But I also want Sayaka to be happy as well & stay best friend's with Touko even after her confession.
Am hoping Nakatani sensei is planing on having Sayaka fall in love with another girl that love's her back. And am also hoping she's planning on having that free-spirited girl from the light novel about Sayaka's past show up in the mainseries, cause that girl actually had feelings for Sayaka, unlike that senpai that used Sayaka as an outlet.

I think that Nakatani sensei has a plan to have Sayaka have her own happiness in the series too just as much as she does for Yuu & Touko.

The part about Sayaka pairing up with that free-spirited girl is just wishful thinking... but it's a wishful thought that I also have.

I dunno. The original story with Baka-sempai does a well enough job of establishing Sayaka's sexuality. She didn't need another, earlier event showing that oh, actually, there was another girl even earlier...

I mean, there's reasons for doing it, like, maybe they wanted to clarify that, no, Baka-sempai, you are NOT the reason Sayaka is gay, or maybe they wanted to subvert the whole girl's-school trope, or maybe they just wanted to point out that some people know their sexuality at a very young age.

But it's also possible that they're setting her up so they can bring her back in a later book.

Honestly? I also kind of wonder if part of the reason for the novels might be because a second season of the anime might need more material, but that is DEFINITELY wishful thinking.

Touko is still in love with Yuu, and showed no such interest in Sayaka. Never mind that accepting Sayaka's confession would make no sense, it would also not be fair towards Sayaka herself.

Way back in the volume 2 (the one where Sayaka didn't show up at all or something) side chapter there was a flashback to their first year where Touko asks for Sayaka's advice on a confession from a girl, in which Touko says she... might be ok with dating a girl, but the bigger issue was obviously that she didn't want to date anybody.

After 37 and the likelihood that Touko has known for some time about Sayaka's interest I have a lot of questions up to and including that encounter. Like... was that Touko's making a gentle attempt at letting Sayaka down? Why did she keep Sayaka around? Did Sayaka's interest maybe spark something in Touko that Yuu was the beneficiary of? There's a bit of a gap there between "maybe" and Yuu...

One thing I think many people are off base on, that I haven't gone into any depth on, is this assumption that Touko -knew-. I get why people might jump to that, and since it was one of the first things anybody said on this forum after seeing the new chapter, a lot of people have it stuck in their head. However, there's nothing in the text that suggests it. Just because she cuts off Sayaka before she confesses doesn't mean she always knew, it just means she knows in that moment.

Touko's not an idiot, but with Yuu we've seen that she can be a little blind to what other people are feeling. It's very probable that it just never occurred to her that Sayaka was into her -romantically-. Hell, it's possible that she only started reevaluating Sayaka's feelings because she so brutally misunderstood Yuu.

In fact, I would wager to say there's evidence in the chapter that suggests Touko was oblivious, or at least in denial, up until the moment of truth. When she helps Sayaka with the love charm....I mean her behavior in that scene is a little...irresponsible? If she knows or strongly suspects that she's the subject of Sayaka's feelings. She almost seems amused that Sayaka's even interested in something like that, and it's definitely inconsistent with the "Don't do it" that comes at confession time.

I would posit that she doesn't catch on until https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch37#19 this last panel. But, like, Sayaka ISN'T BEING SUBTLE. She grabs her hand, drags her up to a secluded place to see the night skyline alone together, and she's clearly working up the nerve to confess when Touko looks back at her.

Even if she had zero suspicions, (which is probably not the case) that is definitely enough for her to pick up on what's going on in time to cut her off.

If I was going to guess, I'd say she's probably had moments where she's wondered, just like there were moments where she wondered if Yuu was falling for her. But as long as it's plausible that you're wrong about your fears, it's human nature to push them out of your mind. So yeah, she's probably has had some moments where she's like "What was up with that arm grab?" "She sure seemed interested when she asked if I was against same-sex relationships" and the like, It's just not that much of a stretch to go "Nah, I'm thinking too much. She's just trying to be a good friend."

You could also make the case that Touko is just a really, really horrible awful person if she knew and sort of exploited Sayaka on top of exploiting Yuu. But I really don't think its that simple. Although... I suppose comforting each other here is like opening the Panama canal to a SayakaYuu endgame... now that I type it I think I might actually be really into it...

Anyway.

It's worth mentioning that she didn't even really mean to exploit Yuu. She was always very straightforward about what she wanted from Yuu and she held back from things she thought Yuu wouldn't like. Hell, even the whole "don't fall for me" thing wasn't actually part of the agreement at the start, but they both started getting more and more twisted up as they went along, and they were both afraid of speaking up about the growing conflict of interests.

Hell, Yuu was even the first one to lie when she said she didn't have any intention of falling in love with anyone. She said that to make Touko feel safe, but she -knew- that she actually really did want that feeling.

The only question is whether we're at the bottom yet.

Well, I sincerely doubt Sayaka is going to be willing to continue to be friends with Touko after being rejected, especially given what I've seen about the LN.

Sorry, not sorry.

Look, like I wrote yesterday, you're beating me over the head with "story structure" to what I see as a character driven slice of life.

Slice of life stories still have structure. In fact, Slice of life stories tend to be way more formulaic and episodic about it.

All stories have structure. It's one of the things writers have to learn to understand before they can write anything good.

Even when stories break from traditional structure, the authors do so with an understanding of the way they're subverting expectations. And this series....are you kidding me? With the build up, the pacing, the character dynamics, the meta commentary, the foreshadowing and visual callbacks?

This series doesn't just have structure, this series has ARCHITECTURE.

I mean, don't get me wrong, if you don't care about any of that, That's fine. You're allowed to enjoy things for whatever qualities you want, and if you just like the cute people struggling with love and stuff, that's fine.

But I promise it's there. ;p

So, to me you're expecting characters to act in unnatural ways to service a plot or story structure that doesn't exist in the way you're claiming it does.

I never said I was expecting characters to act in unnatural ways. In fact story structure is useless if the character's behaviors aren't also consistant and believable. That's why, when you plan the story, you make the characters who they need to be to serve the story, and then you set that up in advance. I think everything I've predicted is perfectly in keeping with who these characters are and who they are growing into.

On top of that you're expecting Citrus and I'm expecting Macross. Actually that analogy should also lead to SayaYuu... but... no... can't...

(tilts head) I'm...sorry, I don't see how that works. In fact that analogy almost makes me think your'e trolling again. (Edit: As in makes me think, as I think I joked before, that you're trolling, not that I think you're the person who was trolling before, who I am aware was a different person. Just wanted to clarify that) Macross definitely has structure! It does it better than Citrus does, in fact. Citrus did go through the whole "all is lost" thing at the end, but the ending itself was super rushed and kinda nonsensical. (I am expecting Yagakimi will resolve it better than Citrus did. It says something that I'm giving a series which -literally ends with pop star song magic saving the day- more credit for an organically structured conclusion than Citrus.)

Is Macross Delta really different or something? The other series all had really definite narrative arcs!

I've said from the beginning that I do still think the series will end with Touko and Yuu, BTW.

True enough, but what I disagree with is the suggestion that it could go either way. It isn't set up for that, IMPO. If you JUST look at the characters as people and think "what would they do", then sure, it's plausible. But that's the point. That's how it's built.

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 4:02PM

I am beginning to think that the emotional impasse in the story is leading us to take out our frustrations on each other. :)

That Touko in particular could use a good forehead flick, and a stern talking to.

Honestly, I think Touko is on the edge of an epiphany, and I suspect that Sayaka just gave her the missing ingredient to understand her own feelings. (You can keep loving someone if they turn out different than you expected.)

I don't know how long it will take her to process that, but I don't think it'll take too long.

The thing is more that when she comes back to Yuu, Yuu will probably have withdrawn from acknowledging her own feelings. She'll come back to Yuu, Yuu will have gone into "Oh don't worry about it, I was just confused, I really can't fall in love after all" mode, and the rest of the story will be about Touko trying to win back that trust and intimacy.

And you missed my point too. I never said there was meant to be an ambiguity. It is clear she feels Yuu is missing and it's painful, I agree that there's nothing ambiguous about that. It's just an implication, or it's implicit, whatever word you choose. "I feel lonely" already makes it clear in context that she feels lonely because Yuu is not with her anymore. I don't see why there should be any ambiguity on that kind of translation. And yes, the contradiction is the point, I said that, which is why IMO, saying "I am lonely" reinforces this contradiction more than "I miss her", the latter is stronger. We know Touko misses her, but for me it's better to keep the implicit connotation behind "I feel lonely" rather than outright stating it "I miss her".
We may not go anywhere with this argument because I did mention it's a matter of preference so we should agree to disagree.

The phrase -doesn't- just mean "I feel lonely", in common use though. Just like when I say someone is hot, There is a meaning that extends beyond the literal definition of the words, that turn of phrase means "It's lonely without ____" with the subject of the sentence, in this case, being implicit in the context.

You can be lonely being alone after a breakup without actually missing your ex. "I'm lonely" could imply that she just wants to be with -someone-. In english, you could take that to imply that she's actually pretty ready for Sayaka's confession, but the Japanese, in context, doesn't suggest that. It suggests she misses Yuu specifically. This is why I say translating it as "I'm lonely" introduces ambiguity that isn't in the original japanese.

Are there any yuri manga where they're also parents? Closest thing I can remember are some Sailor Moon doujins.

Does 1x1/2 count? ;p

But seriously, there's Ohana Holoholo, which is great (but is being translated way too slowly), And Ebisu-san and Hotei-san has (as a side element) the title characters bonding over taking care of Ebisu's niece.

^^^ Like I said, the implication of a feeling of loss and lack is present in Touko's sentence. I just prefer implications to remain implications, a matter of preference I guess. "I miss her" is too strong when the expression is softer, which also emphazises the contradiction between Touko saying Yuu is not special to her anymore and then feeling lonely without her (a word that has been used by both Touko and Yuu in several chapters).

You're missing my point. There's a difference between "implied (but ambiguous)" and "implicit". The original japanese phrase is about feeling lonely because she's missing something. That she is missing Yuu is -implicit- but it is not ambiguous. Translating that to "I'm lonely" would -add- ambiguity to a scene that would not be ambiguous to a native japanese speaker.

Also, the contradiction IS the point. She's talking about how Yuu isn't "special" anymore, but she is demonstrating that she actually -is-. This is about how Touko doesn't understand her own feelings.

So I got sidetracked by Matsuri_Trolls the other night, but I did want to come back to this. I'm assuming -you- are being sincere

What are you even talking about? I never said there are no stakes, I said that Sayaka winning in the end is unlikely because it doesn't fit the narrative. There are still stakes -within- the narrative, the end result just isn't difficult to predict, because the author has spent five full volumes so far setting it up.

You said Sayaka was an "obstacle" and I'm still wondering how. For as long as your post was I'm impressed you evaded the one simple question I asked. If you're saying there's basically no chance between them... what's the point? And where are the stakes?

When I watch Star Wars, I know the Death Star is not going to succeed in blowing up the planet with the rebel base on it. That doesn't mean there aren't stakes. Lots of people are on that planet! Princess Leia and C-3PO are there! The leadership of the entire rebellion! Those are high stakes!

But I know the bad guys aren't going to win, because it's not that kind of movie.

In a good story, there is always a moment of maximum tension before the resolution. We feel satisfied with the resolution -because- we went through that moment of tension. That moment when "all is lost". The Rebels are beaten and battered. All of Lukes squadron is dead or retreated. He's all alone, they've already failed once, the rebel headquarters is in range, the Death Star Laser is spooling up, Vader is zeroing in on Luke and preparing to fire...This isn't just true for action movies. You can take pretty much any well-told story and find the "all is lost" moment right before the main resolution.

Now, where are we now? Yuu and Touko have broken up, Yuu is regressing and denying her feelings, Touko is confused and afraid, they're physically seperated by the school trip, isolated and alone, and Yuu's primary romantic rival just laid down a super slick and effective confession that, seems to have a decent chance of having worked.

Our protagonists are split up and emotionally battered, the rival seems to be winning, the focal relationship we've followed the entire series is threated on multiple fronts, internal and external. That's a hell of an obstacle! If things don't go right, Yuu could spend the rest of her life afraid to love again. Touko could be stuck with regrets about Yuu for the rest of her life. Hell, even from Sayaka's perspective, she has no idea she's trying to get into a relationship with someone that is hung up on someone else. I've been there. that shit isn't fun. Those are stakes! Those are pretty high stakes, to a teenager.

So yeah, Sayaka's confession is an obstacle, contributing to the tension of the main story.

Sayaka's role in -this- story is a tragic one. She doesn't get the girl. There's somebody like that in -most- romances, I don't know why you seem so incredulous about this.

I just fundamentally disagree with you. I don't get why you seem to be taking it so badly.

I don't think I'm taking it badly, I just don't get how anybody can read this series and think it's not clearly and explicitly about Yuu and Touko's relationship, with Sayaka as an obvious side character whose crush on the protagonist isn't going to work out.

I get -wishing- Sayaka would win Touko, I just don't see how anybody can actually think it's going to happen. I mean look at the post about the title pages. This is -obviously- a manga about Yuu and Touko.

If you mean you don't get why I'm arguing the point...Because I think you're wrong. And kinda because I think you're setting yourself up for a massive disappointment in a chapter or two when Touko hits the turning point that I know is coming. Because you seem to think Sayaka has a chance, but, again, this -isn't her story-. And it'd be a shame to see someone walk away from a well constructed and well set up romance narrative because they deceived themselves into expecting something that was never there to begin with.

And even if you -are- just trolling, well, I have fun talking and thinking about it anyway, I learn and realize new things by going over it over and over, and maybe -somebody- will learn something constructive from my posts.

You're writing pointless paragraph after pointless paragraph telling me I don't understand the story and so on yet you're defending your interpretation a tragic character (who has 2 spines, 3 if we get to chapter 9) who you're saying is tragic... pretty much just for the sake of being tragic. To me that's an example of bad writing, not a slow buildup into a triangle. If Sayaka's story had been buttoned up 2 or 3 volumes ago I'd probably agree with you. Where we are now, not so much.

I can't even parse this paragraph. Spines? If you mean story spines, the main story spine has clearly been Yuu and Touko's. The author has -said- this in interviews.

What I will give you is that an author can run the risk of losing the audience who wants their ship to sail. But as I see it there's no clear path from Touko to Yuu either right now, or at least not one that doesn't involve Touko making a grand romantic gesture or acting almost completely out of character.

That's the point. At the climax of the story, everything has gone wrong, all is lost, the bad guys are winning (or if there aren't "bad guys", which there really aren't in this story, at the very least the protagonists look set to lose everything that they've worked for the entire story. That is the moment when something changes.

The only question is whether we're at the bottom yet. If we are, then in a chapter or so, Touko will make a decision that she's going to get Yuu back. If we're not, maybe Touko goes out with Sayaka for awhile, things continue to spiral, Yuu becomes more detached and depressed, Touko gets frustrated and also depressed...The fan base gets exasperated....

Either way, though, at some point, and I bet it will be soon, one or both of the main protagonists will resolve to fight for the relationship they've been building and the story will heat up, and yeah, there probably -will- be some kind of grand romantic gesture involved.

The dilemma starting now would be a terrible structural mistake. What you are describing is a complete narrative flip 6 volumes into what is probably an 8 volume series, according to hints that have been dropped by the author.

You don't read/watch many triangles do you...

Yeah, I do. I've been reading stories with romance in them (and explicit romances) for decades. I've also rarely been wrong about the outcome of any of them. But this series is not about a triangle. This series is about Yuu and Touko. Sayaka is a rival character, not a protagonist.

Sorry, not sorry.

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 10:27AM

It seems what Touko was saying there was not "I miss her" but "I feel lonely" if you see the more literal meaning (寂しい). Not sure why 4s translated it like that, although it's true that 寂しい gives the feeling that something is lacking, but I prefer "lonely" since it also fits with the title of chapter 35. "I miss her" takes the nuance and the implication away imo, since it's a bit stronger. Of course they miss each other, but I prefer implied things to remain implied.

One of the difficult things about translating from another language is that quite often a literal translation -isn't- a literal translation. Words have usages in language that don't carry over if you just look them up in a dictionary.

For example, if I say "Man, that girl is hot!" any english speaker immediately understands that I mean she is attractive. But if you just look those words up in a dictionary and translate it to
男は、あの女の子は暑いです, (Literally, "male, that young female is hot (as in physically warm)") that meaning is not only gone, but the new sentence is gibberish. It has none of the meaning that the original sentence had, and wouldn't make any sense as a direct comparison.

So you wouldn't translate it that way. You'd translate it to something like うわ～！彼女はイケテル。 or 彼女はセクシーね。

寂 as a kanji by itself carries a meaning of "lonely." 寂しい means something like "I'm lonely" "This is lonely", or "I miss (something)" A japanese person, with the given context, would immediately understand that Touko is lamenting that Yuu isn't there. She's clutching the keychain from the date, she's specifically thinking about Yuu's absence. "I miss her" is closer to the natural japanese reading of the expression than "I'm lonely".

C’mon guys—no calling names. We’re all just trying to have fun here, albeit sometimes in some bizarre and incomprehensible ways.

I have very little patience or interest in trying to engage with people who lie about their own opinions in order to troll people. I said what I meant and I meant what I said, and now I'm done with it.

That's so stupid I need to stop your efforts right here lol I've been trolling (and I'd guess others also unless they are delusional readers) and you take it seriously to this level, amassing evidence to prove that some couple from a fictional story is meant to be. What do you want with this, to "enlighten the masses" or feel satisfaction that you won an argument that has a self-evident correct answer? WTF lol I appreciate your effort actually but you don't need to go to that extent, we already know.

I enjoy discussing and debating characters and story structure. It's something I do for fun because I like it.

In that context, you're like some idiot who ran into a basketball match, scored against yourself over and over, insisted he was winning, and then said "Why you even trying to play the game bro I don't even want to win!"

Okay, enjoy being an idiot.

How about: Yuu is adorable. Sayaka likes girls. Sayaka corners Yuu in the equipment shed. Hijinks ensue.

See, this is why I'm a terrible writer. Your version makes so much more sense.
Getting quite some use out of that equipment shed, aren't ya?

Heh... the equipment shed seems to run deep in the thoughts of everyone in the fanbase. For a place that (to my memory) was only shown twice, it sure is mentioned more often than expected among the readers and viewers.

It's more that the equipment shed is a common trope in teen romance stories, being a dark, quiet, out of the way place where makeouts can happen without the teachers being likely to find you.

Oh, also,

I don't need a cuckquean Sayaka in my life. Set the girl free or something.

Nevermind that the term "cuck" is only used unironically by assholes who think girlfriends are possessions, you're also using it wrong.

Not getting the girl is not the same thing as being "cucked".

Also MAN the art for this series is SOOO PRETTY.

^
Omg @Heavensrun, idk what to say anymore. That’s a lot of proof. Lol.

I honestly was just going to do a few, but it was kind of fun looking back at the title pages, which I didn't pay that much heed to the first time around, so yeah.

All this ^ Finally someone I agree with. It all depends on how much story there is left. Sure if it ends in a few more chapters, it must be YuuxTouko, but if the story is long, the introduction of the 3rd-wheeler Sayaka might in fact be because there are 3 protagonists in the story. I mean Sayaka is given an outrageous amount of attention for a 3rd wheeler.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch01 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch02 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch03#3 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch04 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch05 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_toranoana_extra Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch06#2 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch07#2 StuCo! Centered on Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch08 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch09 Yuu. Chapter about is Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_interlude_before_daybreak Sayaka's first chapter! ...which was an interlude. Literally a side chapter.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch10#2 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch11 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch12 Sayaka!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_her_sisters_perspective Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch13 Yuu! Chapter is about Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch14 Yuu and Sayaka!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch15#4 The three girls!, Chapter is about Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch16 Yuu and Touko's hands probably.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_3 Sayaka! Another side chapter.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch17 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch18#4 Yuu. Chapter is yeah you guessed it.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch19 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch20#3 Yuu again. this is the first chapter that really feels like it's -about- the love triangle, by the way.

...

(promo blurbs are about Yuu and Touko.)

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch21 Title shot of the trio! If they'd all been like this, there might be an argument.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch22#4 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_4 Have a volume cover with the trio, chapter is mostly about Miyako and Riko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch23 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch24 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch25 Koyomi!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch26 Yuu.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch27 Touko. (Guess what's next?)
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch28 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_5 Yuu! Side chapter about her thinking about Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch29 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch30 Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch31#2 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch32 Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch33 Yuu and...Rei! Cute sisters cooking together!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch34#3 Yuu.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_special_6 Riko! Side chapter about Riko and Miyako's past.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch35#2 Yuu and Touko.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch36 It only took us thirty six chapters to get our second Sayaka focused cover page!
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch37#3 Touko and Sayaka! This is literally the first cover page focused on them as a pair.

These are just the chapter cover pages (or first pages on the special chapters, which don't have cover pages) But I think it illustrates my point pretty well.

Also most of the volume covers and virtually all of the external promotional images are about Yuu and Touko being gay together. Sayaka has a whopping five title pages, two of which are of the three girls together, two of which are her by herself, and only one of which pairs her with Touko. (Edit: Oh, forgot about the one of Yuu and Sayaka, and the one with StuCo all together.)

Edit again: Man, I don't know why I don't proofread before I send these things. Corrected some typos)

last edited at Jan 6, 2019 1:26AM

This isn't optimism, this is an objective assessment of the structure of the story. Yes, but a well crafted love triangle story puts emphasis on the dillemma.

But... the "dilemma" could just as easily start now, particularly with Touko and Yuu broken up. It makes Sayaka look better for holding back until they were no longer an item, too.

The dilemma starting now would be a terrible structural mistake. What you are describing is a complete narrative flip 6 volumes into what is probably an 8 volume series, according to hints that have been dropped by the author.

Sayaka took -two- volumes- to even become a rival. Two volumes! That's 9 chapters of Yuu and Touko being the sole protagonists of this story. If the plan was always to have a balanced love triangle where things could go either way, that's an -awful- decision, because it makes the story unsatisfying for everybody.

Also, Sayaka doesn't look better or worse. She doesn't KNOW they were an item. She suspected that there were some feelings between them, but she has no idea that they were going out, she doesn't know they "broke up". She chose this moment because she sees Touko changing, and she thinks that bodes well for her, but she doesn't know enough about the landscape to realize what she's doing right now.

I think people are getting sidetracked by how smooth Sayaka's confession was, which, to be fair, is the point. And that's the core of it. Sayaka's confession has come up as an obstacle in the larger narrative. It's supposed to make us apprehensive about what Touko will do.

...an "obstacle" how? Or for who? You're making the point that there are stakes but at the same time no stakes. Its kind of confusing.

What are you even talking about? I never said there are no stakes, I said that Sayaka winning in the end is unlikely because it doesn't fit the narrative. There are still stakes -within- the narrative, the end result just isn't difficult to predict, because the author has spent five full volumes so far setting it up.

Introduction->Rising Action->Climax->Resolution.

We are at the climax. We spent five volumes setting up the conflict. Yuu and Touko are in love, but their struggles with understanding what it means to love another person have gotten in the way of them being happy together. Now they've hit a crisis point. They're broken up, All is lost, we worry for their futures. We are approaching the moment of truth, when they either overcome or fall to the source of the conflict. If they do the former, it's a happy story. If they don't, it's a tragedy.

Fuck, just google "story structure" and save me from having to explain it again.

What exactly do you (and others) see coming out of Sayaka's story? Because there have been volumes of build up to this confession, and now to have her exit stage left and not show up again until the spinoff seems like bad form. And expecting her to have a role in helping Touko and Yuu get back together is probably worse. I don't need a cuckquean Sayaka in my life. Set the girl free or something.

Sayaka's role in -this- story is a tragic one. She doesn't get the girl. There's somebody like that in -most- romances, I don't know why you seem so incredulous about this. "Volumes of buildup"? She wasn't outed as a rival until the end of volume 2, and since then, we've had...6? 7? chapters that were Sayaka-focused. Yuu and Touko are literally on the cover of -every volume-, and most every chapter, /including half the ones about Sayaka/ were about their relationship. You want to talk about buildup to a confession.

Yes, Sayaka is a great character, excellently realized. All three of them are. I want to be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight in terms of the characters. Sayaka and Touko would be easily as adorable together as Yuu and Touko are. If the series had started with their meeting, and we'd had two volumes of Sayaka trying to subtly help Touko through her problems before the interloper Yuu showed up and stole Touko's heart, I'd be saying that Sayaka and Touko are end game.

If Sayaka and Yuu had been introduced as love interests in the first couple of chapters, and the three of them were depicted on all the covers with Touko in the middle of every image, I'd say it's up for grabs.

We don't have that manga. That isn't the series Nakatani decided to write. She decided to tell a story that starts with Yuu and Touko meeting, entering an unconventional relationship, and falling in love with each other, with occasional diversions to side characters, including Sayaka.

As great as she is, this is not Sayaka's story. Hell, I can almost guarantee you a significant part of why we're -getting- a spinoff is because Nakatani wanted to make sure Sayaka got to shine somewhere.

The central question of the series has been described by the author as an answer to the question "What is love?" Not an exploration of different kinds of love, but a single response to the question. ...... This series is primarily about two characters trying to figure out what love means to -them- in the context of their central relationship. That's how it's clearly structured.

Except Sayaka's existence in the story basically contradicts that. You're not even asking the question if you're intent on skirting around her or dismissing her outright.

How does her presence contradict that? She is consistently conveyed as a tragic character outside of the main relationship. She gets exactly the ammount of screen/page time that you would expect to be allotted to an important side character.

Let me get you started -- Which "love" is more true; Touko's heart on her sleeve but "don't love me back" towards Yuu, Yuu's self(ish(less)) wanting (to help) Touko to change, or Sayaka's loving "everything" about Touko from afar while she waits? Do all of them or does any of them deserve something in this situation?

That has literally nothing to do with anything, because they're fictional characters. They exist to serve the narrative. It doesn't matter what any of them would deserve as individuals, it matters what. serves. the story. A romance that spends 5 volumes basically exclusively devoted to the development of a particular relationship then swerves suddenly to change to an entirely different relationship for the last two (with one providing the transition) is badly structured. That's it.

This isn't Sayaka's story. It's Yuu and Touko's. That is objectively evident by literally every piece of secondary art, merchandise, the advertising, and most importantly, the structure of the story that we have been shown.

last edited at Jan 6, 2019 1:35AM

Oh, sorry if i’m missing your point. I was just commenting at your words “nobody jumps in front of trains.”

Yeah, I didn't mean literally no one, I meant statistically, the number of people doing that to kill themselves is vanishingly small. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 8:39PM

There were actually jumped in front of trains. Maybe it’s not the usual, but there were. There still news about it in various newspaper or online. Though the rate fell down from the past 10yrs by providing safety barricades like auto gates in platform. I read that Tokyo planning to put all the train stations with auto gates for future safety but it might take too long coz it’s sure cost a lot.

So it won’t be a surprise that readers thought Touko “might” do it or has a thought ending her life through it.

You're missing my point. Yeah, I'm sure there are people who have jumped in front of trains to end their lives in japan. It isn't -common-, and it isn't an association that most japanese people would leap to.

In this case, the author has clearly been telling one story, and shows no real signs of suddenly swerving to tell a different one, especially one that makes a complete thematic hash of everything that has gone before.

I guess... what do you feel the story is about thematically? Because I may be a bit sarcastic but I'm not expecting an asspull.

Touko ending up with Sayaka runs contrary to basically all of the manga's built up structure and themes so far. If Nakatani-sensei wanted this to be about Touko and Sayaka ending up together, she could have started the story with their meeting and brought Yuu in as a side rival character. If she wanted it to be a love triangle with an open question at the end, she could have spent the first few issues setting up the triangle, but she didn't. She set up Touko x Yuu and -then- introduced Sayaka as a rival side character with an unrequited love.

I appreciate your optimism as far as your preferred pairing but there's not really a hard and fast rule to how a triangle has to either begin or play out. That's why they're not for the faint of heart, especially when they're well crafted.

This isn't optimism, this is an objective assessment of the structure of the story. Yes, there's no hard and fast rule to how a triangle has to begin or play out, but a well crafted love triangle story puts emphasis on the dillemma. Will they pick this person or that person? The story is built so that it is ambiguous.

This story has not set that up. It started with Yuu and Touko meeting and Touko realizing she could fall in love with Yuu. Sayaka was presented as "just a friend" for nine chapters. That's almost two full volumes before she was even outed as a rival, and she was never shown as having an actual chance with Touko within the narrative before now. Even now, the last thing we heard from Touko's inner dialogue was literally about how much she misses Yuu and still cares about her. I think people are getting sidetracked by how smooth Sayaka's confession was, which, to be fair, is the point. And that's the core of it. Sayaka's confession has come up as an obstacle in the larger narrative. It's supposed to make us apprehensive about what Touko will do.

My loose understanding was that YagaKimi was an exploration of different kinds of love which I think demands Sayaka gets a fair shake. I also sort of want to see Yuu evolve because I think she needs to be something more as a character than simply the catalyst for Touko to "change". And for the record, I do still expect a Yuu X Touko ending. Just not Touko performing a grand romantic gesture or something like that anytime soon.

The central question of the series has been described by the author as an answer to the question "What is love?" Not an exploration of different kinds of love, but a single response to the question. If one wanted to explore different kinds of love, I imagine it would focus more on different kinds of relationships, familial, romantic, platonic, different kinds of romance, different kinds of relationships and sexualities, but that isn't this series. This series is primarily about two characters trying to figure out what love means to -them- in the context of their central relationship. That's how it's clearly structured.

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 8:31PM

(now, going back to address something actually addressed to one of my posts)

Actually, I think Japan is MORE enamored with suicide than the west, whether it be in romance or in real life. There's the modern real-life suicide epidemic in Japan, as well as the historical "honorable" Japanese suicides, seppuku/hara-kiri. Just 3 years ago, the big (and really good) romance anime movie Koe no Katachi dropped, and in it both romantic leads were about to kill themselves in some point of the story, but were stopped.

Sure, Touko's probably not actually going to kill herself, but with the signs and symbolism Nakatani dropped, I think she's implying Touko might have killed herself after pulling off the play if Yuu wasn't there to save her or something.

Japan definitely has an uncomfortably high suicide rate, but my point is that the imagery and symbols involved don't say "suicide" to a japanese audience like they do to a western audience. Suicides in japan happen overwhelmingly by hanging, self-electrocution, slitting wrists, or by jumping off bridges or buildings. Nobody jumps in front of trains. I've never even seen that on any of the statistical lists. Trains are an every day fact of life in pretty much every corner of society, but nobody associates them with suicide, because Japanese culture is also interminably polite, and jumping in front of a train would inconvenience others.

the Obon imagery is also culturally important and so things like graveyards or incense don't have the same kind of assumption of morbidity that they have for people who live in the US.

I bet if you asked Nakatani, she'd be surprised anybody read it that way.