I see no real harm in adding the crossdressing tag, even if it's ambiguous (I mean, if it weren't, we wouldn't be having this discussion). It's not a trigger warning, just content information in this case. If someone looking for crossdressing manga doesn't feel that this is crossdress-y enough, well boo-hoo, they wasted probably all of five minutes reading the first ten pages or so before figuring out that it isn't for them. Now consider that others looking for crossdressing manga do feel that this fits their wishes and would have missed it without the tag. They've gained an hour or two of reading fun as it stands and have another series to follow.

I think the potential gain outweighs the potential harm.

But is it -cross dressing- if that deception has no bearing on what you choose to wear, since "dressing" is specifically part of the term? Isn't it just a -lie- at that point, and not the specific behavior of cross dressing?

I see that it's definitely a case that's up to debate and it's okay to disagree, but I think Kanda wearing a corset to, however ineffectually, hide outward signs of her being female, does constitute choosing what she wears to pass as the opposite gender.

I mean you say it's the addition of deliberate deception, but deliberate deception isn't even a necessary part of cross dressing. Drag queens and crossplayers usually aren't trying to deceive anyone at all, they're just wearing clothes they like or dressing as characters they admire.

There are required parts to a definition, and sufficient parts to a definition. Deliberate deception is not necessary to crossdressing, but if you dress a way to deliberately deceive and pass for the opposite gender (or whatever different gender, depending on how you view the spectrum), I would say that is sufficient to classify the act as crossdressing.

I feel like the element that makes cross-dressing what it is isn't deception, but a deviation from expected norms, be they personal or societal. An intent to deceive -can- be part of that, but it isn't necessarily.

Even if we ignore my argument that deliberate deception is sufficient to call it crossdressing, isn't it true that she, through the way she behaves and dresses, deviates from expected norms and is by your definition crossdressing as well?

last edited at Jul 31, 2020 7:26PM

65 F.....bruh how is that even possible?

Me and my wife were just as baffled at that. It's technically possible, but not likely, and doesn't sound healthy. She'll need really good bras for that, and her assets are still liable to cause her diminutive body back pain eventually.

At this point it probably comes down almost entirely to intent. It would have to be something like a girl adopting a style of dress for the express purpose of passing as male, while still identifying as female. Or being a drag king I guess.

Of course, this is relative to culture. If you're in, say, Saudi Arabia, there's still clothing that is 100% masculine coded.

Yeah, I guess intent and resulting behavioural adaptations would be a big part of it, and I can also see how traditional clothing has a much stronger gender exclusivity in many parts of the world. Even here, in southern Germany, the traditional "Lederhosen" are still largely masculine-exclusive, despite some women wearing them on occasion (which may even elicit negative reactions from traditionalists).

If we assume that "behaviour" is part of crossdressing, I think it's rather fair to say that Kanda is crossdressing as masculine, because she's deliberately wearing gender-neutral or masculine clothing (even making sure Ookuma won't notice her breasts) and playing the part of the boyfriend.

@random
I was specifically thinking of Kilts when I noted that there were some exceptions to skirts being feminine-coded ;-)
And I agree, Kilts are masculine a.f., especially if you wear them commando, and super comfy in hot summers.

last edited at Jul 31, 2020 5:37AM

Considering that Kanda doesn't consider herself a man, and was already dressing that way before she cared what anyone thought of her gender presentation, that seems wrong. There are plenty of butch girls who dress like that, and they're not cross dressing.

How would a girl crossdress anyway? There isn't really a lot of "masculine-gender-locked" clothing anymore. A suit or tuxedo (with a suit jacket, not a blazer) comes to mind, maybe a shirt, everything else, meanung most everyday clothing men wear, is unisex. Unlike skirts and dresses, which are (with very few exceptions) locked to the feminine. Blouses are basically just shirts adapted to female anatomy, so I'm not even sure if we should distinguish them from shirts, and tight-fitting t-shirts (similar to girly-shirts) have found their place in masculine fashion as well.

Honda's last inner monologue made me giggle.
"I'm scared that if she found out how I felt, our ambiguous relationship as it is would be over."
Hell yeah, it would absolutely be over. At least, the "ambiguous as it is" bit. The relationship itself would actually just kick into gear at that point. Geez, useless lesbians at it again.

Poggers!

I love these translators.

No it's called being tone deaf.

I don't follow. Seems appropriate for the scene it appears in.
I mean, yeah, it would never fly with a "professional" editor for a publication, but I think it makes for a charming, "more real" translation.

"Ruining Manga" lol

Zormau posted:

What's the TL team got to do with it? (somewhat genuine question, I can't read Japanese)

... I'm really getting tired of seeing people ask questions that clearly indicate they simply stopped at the last actual comic page and didn't bother to look at the subsequent credits page. Just because most such pages only list the names of the individuals involved in the translation doesn't mean that all of them are so limited, and even those groups that usually do so do occasionally add important info in one of those pages for one reason or the other.

...What? I'm confused as to why you're assuming they skipped the credits. They were asking why the other person was saying the translators were somehow responsible for making Tsuruta look better than he actually was (somehow). I'm interested in what they meant as well. Since I also can't read japanese, I wouldn't know what the original script made him out to be. Was he "insanely creepy" in the raws? Or did he just come across as kinda lame and immature like he did in the scanlation?

No no, they were kinda right in this case - I had not read the post-chapter commentary and was honestly confused what the background was. Maybe I should pay a little more attention to the TL commentary on the credits pages.

last edited at Jul 23, 2020 4:14PM

Why did the tl team had to make Tsuruta less creepy? Isn’t that part of his character? It just seems that they decided to make him likeable so I don’t understand :(

Also, people here make it seem like he would be the perfect boyfriend when it seems that he has never been in a relationship, and would idolize miwa instead of seeing her as an equal. Dunno, I don’t think pining makes you immediately a better option of a partner

What's the TL team got to do with it? (somewhat genuine question, I can't read Japanese)
The entire chapter was about giving insight to Tsuruta's behaviour, why he couldn't help himself and ended up behaving creepy. Being creepy wasn't the core of his character, but a consequence of it: He's new to romance, a bumbling fool whose brain was being scrambled by a silly and childish, if persistent, crush. Now, it seems, he's finally been made painfully aware of just how ridiculous he's being, which is why he'll apparently do some damage control now.
He's not a "good guy". He's a "guy", warts and all.

I also think we've been reading very different threads because I don't see a general consensus that Tsuruta'd be a good match for anyone. Quite the opposite.

last edited at Jul 23, 2020 11:39AM

I really do wish something substantial would finally happen after 60 chapters.

i want more progress too, but this felt like a big step. the two of them going on a date together and kissing each other on the cheek.

feels like this is the first time they hung out outside school intentionally. if their dates continue, they will have more opportunities to grow. things were getting stale behind the equipment shed anyway.

hino clearly is aware that she has a mondo-crush, and badly wants to kiss koguma. kogu is maybe a bit behind, but i think she is aware of her heart racing whenever anything intimate happens with them.

this is probably the most progress in a chapter yet. i got all happy from reading it. :D

despite the slow progress, they have had a lot of cute, intimate moments. them sharing selfies in bed was extremely cute. so was them holding hands while walking to class, and their umbrella sharing. basically any time hino blushes :P

I would propose that there might be progress that we can't directly see: I think if Hino hadn't covered her mouth with ice cream but asked for a kiss directly she might have gotten a positive response. Kogu was simply too distracted by how ridiculous Hino looked.

pretty sure all their classmates think they're a couple at this point. now, in another year they will kiss on the mouth. then 2 years later they will decide to date. =_= hinokogu in 2023!!

So kinda like those two? https://dynasty-scans.com/series/after_school

It's kinda fun that we now have a third party trickster character in Miyoshi. I don't think she'll actually try to seriously pursue Ichika, but she'll gladly tease them and hopefully also give them a little push every now and then to help them become "official". I mean, all it takes to get there is admitting their respective feelings, which is totally not a big deal or anything.

(I dearly hope the sarcasm in that last sentence came through)

last edited at Jul 18, 2020 4:31PM

same basic character conceptions, same setting, different storyline.

This. I think this story is precisely this. Take the same characters, expand heavily on their background, give them a different emotional reaction to each other, tell the corresponding story.

I have no idea how they'll end up. If they don't change, talk things over and open up to each other, the relationship will fail. If they enter another relationship that has an emotional core and origin and don't act differently, that will fail as well.

I'm curious about Miwa's first crush. I mean, odds are that she's straight and in a relationship, so that'll be a rough landing. Might be the push Miwa needs to get her act together.

Mom's advice not to be open with your partner about your past and keep spicy things secret from your partner does indeed work for her and her husband. Because the core of their relationship is not love, it's not born from emotion. It's a contract, an arranged marriage they've made their peace with. Love is not at the core there. They aren't close the way Miwa and Saeko want to be, and they've decided that that's okay for them. I can't see Saeko and Miwa going that route, so they'll either break up or finally fess up and own their past "sins". I can't think of anything they could be hiding that would upset the other to a worrying degree.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/so_do_you_want_to_go_out_or_ch20#13

Panel 1: "I wonder if this is one of those times..." - No, ab-so-f*cking-lutely not.

Panel 3: "If I'm going to hurt her by asking too many questions, then I don't want to dig too deep." - She's already (emotionally) hurting herself by not talking about it with the one person that's closest to her. Those emotional wounds are festering within her, so, in keeping with the metaphor, you'll have to dig all the way to the rotten core of the issue and excise it before she can properly heal.

Also I feel bad for Tsuruta. He can't really just outright "stop having a crush" on Miwa, but his insistence is so cringey, and it's become kinda creepy at this point.

last edited at Jul 18, 2020 10:23AM

Koguma has good taste. So does Hino.

Pretty sure that if you asked them about each other, they'd come to find that they don't only have good taste, but also taste good to eachother. Nom.

I think the people who are reading too much into this are reading the English too literally and forgetting that this is a translation of Japanese and that English words are approximations of Japanese meaning. Even the translated title has different nuance than the English "Sheltered Girl". The Japanese title has "hakoiri musume" which is literally "daughter kept in a box". She's wasn't just sheltered, she was kept from almost all knowledge of the world and thus doesn't even know what genitals look like to tell male from female. This doesn't feel like a stretch to me.

Thanks for the input about the original title, it's nice getting some background every now and then. No translation will ever perfectly replicate what the original provided, and I generally like to take what I get at face value rather than pine over what could have been.
I would say, however, that "not knowing what genitalia look like" is still a massive stretch at college age, and that "sheltering" her from that knowledge is absolutely irresponsible on the parents' part. Not that I doubt that there are parents that would love to do it that way, I just think it's not plausible for it to actually happen all the way into adulthood.

People are similarly taking the "I might attack you" think too far as well by reading "attack" too literally. Love making is a very "vigorous" action. Just as "attack" is used in sports, it doesn't necessarily mean literally violent action.

Yeah, it's an interesting case because it's actually stated as a warning by the characters, and thus (at first) used in earnest, fully aware that sexual predation and assault are not okay. In the first instances, it is definitely used in a non-romantic "I'll do things to you whether you want it or not" way. After that they start toying with the rhetoric, making it their own, which is cool and empowering. This is the turning point: https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/handsome_girl_and_sheltered_girl_ch10#25

The more I think about it, it only bothers me if used willy-nilly as praise or romanticized, by an outside narrator. What the characters (or actual people) themselves say in bed is ultimately their own business, whether I like it or not. And if it fits in some playful dialogue, I probably won't mind at all. Chemistry and context.

You mean "let's bang" isn't about firing explosives at one another? Man, no wonder my last relationship didn't work out.

No wonder you thought that's what it means. You're a physics major IIRC.

You guys* made my night right there.

*or girls, what do I know.

last edited at Jul 10, 2020 7:26PM

Hence my emphasis on context--some uses of the trope endorse toxic contemporary cultural attitudes and others do not. I have yet to hear a convincing argument that this one does.

I agree, both in regards to context being key in the wider spectrum, as well as the conclusion about this specific case.

Hey BV, been a while. I'm always cycling through various forms of media. Play video games for a few months, get bored with that, watch anime for a few weeks, get that appetite sated, move on to reading manga for a few weeks, and the cycle continues. Since I've now taken to at least five ongoing manga, I'll probably show up more frequently again.

@Blastaar I think we missed each other's point. I was just referring to a meme about a very niche YT content creator whose favourite word is more or less "context". I was not referring to your link at that moment, if that's what you were thinking. Besides that, I'd misread your previous response to my inquiry as agreement, not as a valid counterpoint.

I'm still not a fan of lightly making connections between "violence"-related words and imagery, and "vanilla" sexuality. Don't get me wrong, I get that it's a sensibility of mine that many people won't share (while others absolutely will), but for me "pseudo-violent" aspects of sexuality require a lot of context and ideally co-text to not come off as overreaching or downright disgusting, especially when injected via outside narration. The degree of explicit consent and chemistry that we have in this very case, combined with the inexperienced and clumsy characters makes it totally work out okay for me - they're being playful at this point.

and I think if a Mochi book had a male-sexed protagonist, it might be something like a divide-by-zero error on the entire universe.

Oh well

lol.

Context matters in everything.

What is this, a Matt Easton video?

I only just stumbled upon this gem by scanning the "college" tag entries (had my fill of high school for a bit).

I love the artstyle. Kanda's great. Ookuma's character design isn't quite for me, but whatever.

I liked the progression, and, like dear Blastaar pointed out as sharply as usual, Ookuma is finally coming into her own and may be more than just a bubbly airhead in the future.

With regards to the ongoing discussion about how the "men are all wolves" line is to be interpreted, I'd take the middle ground. It's clearly depicted as a trope, and thus a clear oversimplification, but the fact remains that it's not "challenged" per sé. On the other hand we should take into account some peculiarities about Japanese culture and, as has been correctly pointed out, the baffling prevalence of "violent" imagery and words in erotic discourse in Japanese fiction.

Personally I'm taken aback when "aggression", "attacks" and "violent" appear in a sexual context, but that seems to be a somewhat western sensibility to me. Am I wrong? I'm more than willing to expand my horizons here. Still, how Ookuma reacted in the final pages was great, emphasizing consent despite the lingo.

last edited at Jul 9, 2020 9:37PM

In these past few chapters we've seen that they do care and are serious about each other: Both of them seemed self-consciously worried about souring their relationship, Miwa with her gloomyness/passiviness and Saeko with her jealousy. Also in chapter 19 Saeko introduced Miwa as a girlfriend to her mom, while Miwa offered to dry Saekos hair after noticing she had been hurt by being made to remember middle school. Furthermore Miwa is showing initiative in not only improving herself so that Saeko doesnt tire of her(ch 15-16), but also in uncovering Saekos past traumas and making sure she stops distancing herself whenever something that bothers her comes up(chapters 17 to 19).

To me this makes it seem that they are in fact emotionally invested in each other, something the one-shot outright denied they were.They arent struggling to fall in love with each other, but with breaking out of their past habits and experiences so that they can keep a healthy relationship(which they both seem like they want to do!). So, regardless of how it ends, this is completely different from the shallow relationship they had in the one-shot where they broke up apathetically without even trying or feeling anything.

I agree, at this point their relationship isn't doomed at all, but it will end up failing if they don't open up to each other about the uncomfortable emotions they're feeling. I think jealousy and possessiveness are normal, to a degree, but they need to communicate their feelings and negotiate what to do about them.

It seems Miwa is starting to come out of her shell, she's probably found the resolve to make a stand for their relationship and actively work to maintain it. Now I guess we need to see if she goes through with it, and if Saeko manages to own her jealousy.

I want more stories like this, that are not so much, or at least not only, about falling in love, but rather figuring out how to keep loving, how to establish and maintain a relationship. I felt that Bloom Into You somewhat fell into that category (although more on the "learning to love"/"defining love" side), while this one takes it one step further, probably partly due to being set in college rather than high school.

last edited at Jul 9, 2020 7:59PM

Kinda surprising how the comments section basically only blew up four days ago.

Everything past the first chapter was only uploaded now. You can find the original comments thread for the first chapter here.

Makes sense.

I originally found it on another site and wanted to look around if there was more somewhere else. Oh well, if there's already a preview of chapter 10 on the artists' Pixiv I'm happy to wait until the new chapter releases.

Is there a somewhat regular rhythm to the releases or have the chapters been coming out just "every now and then"?

Yeah, I found this to be pretty enjoyable I just found the translation to be a bit awkward at times. Especially when they say (persons name) instead of you. It just sounds like they are talking about a completely different person

Yeah, I guess it's a moderately common mannerism in Japanese, which comes out weird to a generic English audience if translated as such. The translation is awkward, weird and at times confusing, but I'd still MUCH rather have it this way than not have it at all. I only found the series yesterday and now I'm about as thirsty for more as Shiine and Ichika are for each other.

Kinda surprising how the comments section basically only blew up four days ago.

last edited at Jul 9, 2020 9:42AM

Thanks for that. Yeah, a bit of a bummer, as it puts way less stress on Yuu slowly becoming aware of her feelings. Giving detailed (what's the issue, why do you think it's an issue etc.) and constructive feedback to the publisher (assuming the translator/editor isn't directly available) seems like a good idea. It's easier to avoid flaws and keep growing if we're made aware of them.

last edited at Mar 7, 2020 8:59PM

By the way, how did the french guys translate the much-discussed clubroom-honorifics-scene if they generally omitted them?

You mean when Touko start changing from Koito to Yuu ? Fortunaly, even if we don't have the honorifics, we didn't have the characters on first name basis. Until then, Touko refer to Yuu as Koito and Yuu,well she still refer as Nanami.

Yeah, that's a good compromise.

Would you mind sharing the exact wording of the french version in chapter 22 you were talking about earlier? My french is rusty and far from conversational, but I should be able to read it well enough.

Interesting case for comparison between versions.
I don't know enough Japanese to comment on the exact phrasing of the original, but the four English versions I looked at for this scene right now all somewhat differ. (Edit: looked at the raws again. Interesting, the descriptor for the things ([x]-mono) is even more obscured than in the English versions. So I guess the translators were all "just assuming" that it would be "things that I love/like"? Even in the Japanese dub this one word is utterly unintelligible to me, as it perfectly coincides with Yuu starting to yell. I mean, it's clear enough from the context what she means, so I don't think actually knowing the words that were used really matters.)

4S Translation:
Page 29 last panel: Same goes for you, Senpai.
Page 30 first panel: How can you say you hate something I lo- // YOU JERK!

Official Kadokawa/Seven Seas release:
Page 29 last panel: Then I wish you wouldn't...
Page 30 first panel: say you hate something that I [illegible] either. // IDIOT!

Sentai's subtitles for the Anime adaptation:
You should do the same...
... don't tell me you hate the things that I like! // You idiot!

Sentai's dub for the anime:
You should do the same.
Don't tell me you hate all the things that I like about you // Idiot.

(Side note: the next line, which in the original and the first three translations I mentioned is just something along the lines of "Senpai, you idiot! // Senpai no baka!", has been altered to "You're wrong, you hear me?" in the dub. Personally I'd probably just have gone with "You're such a Jerk!", but I think the deviation doesn't diminish any aspect of the narrative, but to me rather adds to it as it fits very well with the character development at the time.)

The french translation lacks a relevant aspect, unfortunately, as translations are so often want to do.

By the way, how did the french guys translate the much-discussed clubroom-honorifics-scene if they generally omitted them?

last edited at Mar 7, 2020 8:05PM

Hot damn Jesus Touko's amazing in that scene in the Japanese dub, incredibly soft. I like how Luci Christian does it, but this is on another level, props to not only the actress, but also the recording staff. Not everyone would so confidently go to ASMR-levels of whisper. Makes me want to pick up my Japanese lessons again, because I also noticed that reading along did allow me to understand what they were saying. Which is nice. Maybe I'll make it two rewatches, one for each language version ;)

One of the scenes that earned YagaKimi my top spot. We far too rarely see actual intimacy in romantic anime.

Not being bold enough is incidentally still the biggest issue dubs in German and English face (IMO): they aren't bold enough in being confidently imperfect, aside from maybe being not accurate enough, depending on who you ask. Especially in German dubs everything must always sound unnaturally properly pronounced, no unclear pronunciation, far too little idiomatic omission. Writers, actors, directors, technicians and especially producers should take a few more notes from their book.

And don't worry, you don't have to ever watch that dub, or any other, ever again. I'll gladly catch that bullet for you and most likely tell you how they didn't change a thing.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 7:39PM