Overly cutesy kouhai falls in love with clumsy male sempai: This is trash, misogynistic and the most pathetic wish fulfillment

Overly cutesy Kouhai falls in love with clumsly female sempai: This is the highest form of art and only deserves the utmost praise

Clumsy? I think you mean "lazy but intelligent, perpetually speaking in sarcastic monologues" male senpai. Or "breaks your phone and verbally puts you down but only because he loves you so much and is misunderstood" male senpai.

Jokes aside, changing the gender itself is a big change in terms of the both direct portrayal and the more indirect context surrounding the character in question.

tkmiz put it nicely in that an end of the world scenario involving two girls in love is beautiful to him, but with a guy and a girl it's just obnoxious, in that the context of the relationship changes completely, even if they were portrayed the exact same way (which they wouldn't be anyway).

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 3:42AM

Good job. That b... bad person insulted me grossly and supported incest and rape in comics on the laughable claim that it's just fiction. She deserves to be banned. Next in line for being grossly offensive are Jeanne Mathison (^a piece of her is quoted above) and Minalinsky.

Frankly, I can't differentiate between "invested parody" and "actually serious" at this point.
For what it's worth, I don't have anything against incest in real life too! (assuming it's between two adults of course)

Just to make you more grossly offended. In case you're serious. But surely you're just joking, right?

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 3:16AM

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The world needs more people like you. (‘▿’ʃʃ)

Unironically.

People who feel child abuse/incest/rape is cute??

So far I've only read a cute story about incest, not rape and abuse. I mean, unless you're talking about the nonsensical prattling of various posters that's borderline abusive to my ears - but that stuff isn't cute.

Seriously though, some of you are trying so hard to paint this as some kind of insidious story about broken and twisted people, like the poster who made the mental leap to assume that Ayako saying "it's her fault" means that she's talking about her secret drugging and raping of her unconscious daughter rather than her lack of presence in her daughter's life due to being a single working mom away from home all the time, a theme that's already been brought up multiple times in the story. As opposed to sekrit drug-induced rape shenanigans, I mean.

I wish I could say I'm making this shit up. Actually, I take back what I said. It's cute how ridiculously tone-deaf to the writing of the story this idea is. Only ironically cute though.

Let me explain one thing further as to why it's tone deaf, since I realize now I'm pretty much saying it's dumb without really explaining why. What people should understand about stories like these is the intent of the people writing or drawing it: what they seek is not to depict some 1:1 version of the average (not even all!) taboo relationship in question, whether it be incest, or loli age gap, or polygamy, or whatever some posters here and elsewhere feel the need to morally police about every so often. What they want to do is strip away all or at least most of the most harmful negatives, only depicting the potential good or appealing sides - yes, there are always sides that are appealing or good - of the relationship in question. An idealized form of it. So people coming charging in on their crusade announcing that real life versions of said relationship are not necessarily like this, or even worse, trying to apply real life conventions to said relationship, are pretty much assuming everyone else is fucking stupid and are attempting to bring enlightenment to us uncivilized savages, and I can't say I appreciate that much. I mean the theory Arcane cooked up is harmless enough, if completely implausible, but in the greater context of this discussion, it's getting pretty old, seeing people constantly trying to twist the story to fit the "muh abusive" lens some other people are absolutely demanding everyone else see the story through

last edited at Jun 23, 2019 1:23AM

Feast your eyes, everyone. Child abuse, incest and rape. It's so CUTE!

This but unironically.

The only other Marina I know of is in Bang Dream and is a girl.
Maybe it's a last name?

last edited at Jun 22, 2019 11:07AM

Thing is, lots of yuri manga has undefined characters in part because a lot of the audience thinks it's gauche and rude when a woman says something like that out loud about herself. The purity is the point. And I'm never gonna get behind that... good to see this author isn't doing it.

That isn't really why I don't like it. It's just more romantic to me if you love someone and because of that you are gay, rather than being gay and because of that you love someone.

To put it another way, I don't want to read about, or think about myself as someone who would stop loving my partner if they got a sex change, or magically woke up as the opposite gender, all else held equal. In fact, It's actually one of the biggest annoyances I have with protagonists of otokonoko/trap manga even if I like that type of character a lot too, but the non-crossdressing protagonists usually have this whole "nooo but he's a guy" tripe that just goes on and on until the end of the manga even if they like everything about the other person; sometimes most of the time the entire conflict of the manga is predicated on this and nothing else - Prunus Girl being one example, and I don't even dislike that one. Yeah there's the typical "but we're GIRLS" line in yuri manga but usually that gets solved quickly and then it goes into other drama so it's more endearing than anything like that. So it's not really a woman or a man thing for me, it's obnoxious either way.

That isn't to say people who define themselves by their identity that way don't exist nor am I saying they're necessarily bad people or anything, but I don't really want to read about them.

last edited at Jun 21, 2019 1:15AM

My original complaint was that yuri manga has a tendency to not want anyone to speak out loud about the gay part of a gay relationship, even within the own characters' heads.

It came to my mind for this manga not because it's especially bad in this regard, but because it apparently has a main character driven by normative pressure to marry, but who is attracted to women (or at least is attracted to one now)... and there's no textual acknowledgement on her part of the non-normativeness of that! It's like, the pressure to have a normal life is her driving psychological force, but meanwhile she has a "love is love; sometimes gender doesn't matter!" orientation toward gayness at the same time, and it's baffling.

It might sound weird to you but that's exactly how I feel about my own shit and its primarily why I read yuri and not western lesbian fiction. I don't want yuri to resemble the latter, it's foreign to me and I don't really like reading it usually, so people pushing for yuri to be more like that is pretty off-putting.

For me, it's like that oneshot that was posted a while back, Rainbow. Not taken to that extreme of a level where I see myself asking my partner when we're 80 "HM ARE WE GAY," but I understood the sentiment being preached by the author. I teach and I have kids that ask me "When did you find out your were gay?" and I always tell them I never really just woke up one day and found out, I just happened to fall in love with someone and they happened to be the same sex.

If you define your relationship on the basis of your identity first and partner second that's fine and all, but some people (like me) prefer to define it by our partner first and identity second.

last edited at Jun 20, 2019 11:12PM

I didn't choose teaching as a profession for nothing. Probably.

It doesn't need to be a quote from the author because it's pretty obvious what the joke is.

1. Hino and Koguma have discussed previously that being held back would result in less consistent visits from Koguma as she would not know when Hino is cutting classes, thereby establishing that being held back is a bad end for the manga and their relationship.
2. Koguma says that tests are coming soon, and that HIno would need to pass all the subjects or she'll be held back.
3. Hino says "Sure, when hell freezes over" thereby implying that it's impossible to do so, fating herself to being held back.
4. The series reaches its bad end, hence the message saying that the manga is over, and to look forward to the next author's work, a fairly common message at the end of various serialized manga.
5. Koguma tsukkomis with a "Wait a second!" because it's obviously a silly way to end the manga and just a joke.

last edited at May 22, 2019 1:08AM

aren't we ever gonna accept the fact that characters in fictional works aren't supposed to be perfect?

Hino and Koguma are perfect though.
For each other.

last edited at May 19, 2019 8:18PM

the way some of you sound like you'd think Hino held up a fucking knife to Koguma's throat to force her into the toilet rather than "threatening" to stop holding hands. It's like calling it physical abuse when someone says they'll bop someone on the head for keeping a secret.

At this point I think some of you should just stop reading this.

last edited at May 19, 2019 8:01PM

I was just about that mad regarding Love Lab, so it's sort of relieving to see others get mad about yuri bait.

But I'd prefer to focus on this nice series.

https://i.imgur.com/CJfMI2q.jpg

Like whatever uncomfortable miasma of gender identity "My Wife is a Man" lies in.

There is literally nothing wrong with My Wife is a Man.

They don't have feelings. They don't exist. Yes, the bigot should be ignored but their feelings that actually exist still outweigh nothing it's the feelings of the real gay people who would gain from lesbian representation that outweigh theirs and should be prioritized.

You can see it that way, sure, but the feelings of the real people or the gay community don't come into mind for me. Except for mine. I mean I hate the anti-yuri folks, so I get that satisfaction, I guess. But primarily I'm thinking about the characters. If you're going to argue that the bigot's unsightly and ugly feelings stand above the love of the character's, well I can't agree on that.

I don't read yuri to fist pump that it's another victory for the gay community, I read them because I love the characters and the way the interact with each other.

last edited at May 10, 2019 7:31PM

Do you think we should treat real people and fictional characters with the same level of ethical priority? If the trolley problem had your favourite fictional character (who doesn't exist) on one track and an actual living breathing human being on the other would you be conflicted about saving the actual living breathing human? Like that's what I'm talking about here not like really loving fictional characters and investing in them but straight up believing they have the same intrinsic worth as actual human life.

Well, the equivalent of the fictional character on the track would be the concept of the fictional character being erased from existence, as that would be the equivalent of death for them.

And to answer your question. It depends a lot on the identity of the person on the track.
(and to a lesser extent, the character whose existence is in question on the other.)

I mean I can count a lot of fictional characters that bring greater joy and good to the world than quite a few real people.

last edited at May 10, 2019 7:25PM

Prioritizing the feelings of fictional characters that do not in fact have feelings over those of real people is delusional. Empathizing with them within the context of their stories? Perfectly reasonable and part of the point of stories. Thinking they have the same ethical standing as actual people in a real world context? Psychologically unwell.

Depending on the situation I would certainly prioritize the feelings of the characters over the feelings of real people.

Like, say, a very common type of person that would feel threatened by a potential lesbian couple in fiction because it damages their ability to enjoy the story. I often wonder what kind of person would want to destroy the feelings of the characters for the sake of their own self-satisfaction. That would count as prioritizing a fictional character's feelings over a real person's.

I suppose that makes me psychologically unwell. Who knew?

last edited at May 10, 2019 7:22PM

Koguma is not a real person therefore her feelings have no bearing on ethical considerations outside the text.

Not everyone consumes fiction this way, nor are they obligated to or should do so in this way.

If such a thing were so self evident then this discussion wouldn't be happening, but I'll concede I may have misinterpreted the statement. (or may not have! It's pretty ambiguous).

Are people actually arguing about this adorable bundle of cuteness?? I love this series. If it makes you uncomfortable, that just says something about YOU, not the story. Get over it. Love the cute. FFS people.

Here's how I think of this: could the receiving character claim the other character molested her, and seek legal action? If the answer is yes, we have an uncomfortable, rapey situation, and the other character should not have done it.

If you're going to take the context of their relationship out of the equation then you might as well cry foul on hugging too then. Or kissing. Or anything really.

last edited at May 10, 2019 6:40PM

If it was merely a matter of stating one's discomfort, I'd have no problem. Personally, I'd say a bit of danger is the spice of life, and I don't understand the need some people have to sanitize something to the point where I'd feel the lifeblood and excitement's completely drained from it, but to each their own.

What I do find fault with is the need to cast the author as some kind of sick fuck because they didn't do so and also may (or may not even, apparently!) draw loli on the side, which even if they do, would be a massive leap in reasoning. It's literally a case of "stop liking what i don't like" but dressed up as moralistic prattling.

last edited at May 10, 2019 5:58PM

y'all can like your non-con loli porn all you want.

Whoa, I missed when 'non-con' was brought up.

Meh, I went through their Pixiv and the closest thing I could find to "loli sex" was two separate comic strips of Sakurako and Himawari from Yuru Yuri, where both comics fade out and return to them nude (with their genitals covered, either by sheets, frames, or body positions) implying they had sex during the interval.

The only other thing that stands out to me is an illustration of a frontal nude of Sanya and Eira from Strike Witches sitting lateral to each other, with a gap between them, where their body proportions appear quite juvenile. Their breasts and nipples are exposed, however their vulvas are concealed. The illustration doesn't seem very sexualized in any other way, other than a blush and expression on Eira's face that could be interpreted as arousal.

Other than that, the artist seems to have a preference towards small/flat breasts and has drawn some feminine looking men (noteably Hideyoshi from Baka to Test) topless. It seems to me that the person who brought up issue with their pixiv is more concerned with the body type then the emotional/moral content. I'm guessing they just threw in the 'non-con' bit as a last minute strawman insult because they found it more damning than 'consensual loli porn'. Or else they're implying that no porn involving lolis can be consensual, thus the comic strips involving Himawari and Sakurako are 'non-con' by default, but in the comic strips mentioned, both characters appear to take active roles, and anyone familiar with the characters should be able to imagine the emotinal states concerned with such a scenario.

Edit: As it turns out, both of those "comic strips" of Himawari and Sakurako have been translated and uploaded here on Dynasty already.

Regardless if the claim is true or not, what the artist draws on the side is irrelevant as long as they draw good yuri.
If people want yuri to expand as a genre beyond the current niche it is, then the first step is to not shit on the artists for things they're interested in drawing. I've seen this happen time and time again for whatever reason, at least in western communities, sometimes voiced even directly at the artist.

last edited at May 10, 2019 2:25PM

Wow some people are taking this a bit too seriously. This is a lighthearted romcom, not a serious dramatic romance exploring the psychological effects of dom/sub relationships. At no point are we led to believe that Hino has any malicious intent towards Koguma, nor that she wouldn’t stop if Hino seriously told her to. And it would be unnatural for them to have a well defined and explicit power dynamic with safe words and everything when the entire story so far is about ambiguity.

There's always people who feel the need to suck the joy out of things because they lack the capability to take context from whatever they're reading and insist on judging it by rules that clearly don't apply to it.

Sometimes I wonder if it's even fun living like that.

last edited at May 10, 2019 1:36AM

Oh, c'mon. If instead of yuri it was any other genre it would be an instant drop for all of us. If anyone paid it any attention was because it is yuri. If it was scanlated it is for the yuri.

I'm not disagreeing with that at all. But I don't mind mediocrity if it's mediocre yuri.

It's not like the series is particularly upsetting like a handful that come to mind for me so I don't mind it.

Oh, I don't like Kuroneko either, I just feel like OreImo is like if someone made a romance with King Joffrey Baratheon as the love interest.

I wouldn't know the details of what you're referencing because I don't watch things I don't like, which is evidently not the case with you. That or you're just memeing on a character after watching a handful of episodes, because her behavior given the circumstances revealed later aren't at all unreasonable or particularly childish. She has a pretty believable reason to be tsundere.

last edited at Apr 13, 2019 11:44PM

Mediocrity aside, yuri manga getting canned is never a happy thing for me.

Getting a free pass just because it is yuri ain't good either.

I'm not giving it a free pass so much as that it's just mediocre to me, but that's not really a bad thing. I keep up with it because it's alright enough to keep reading, if I hated it it'd be another story. The biggest problem I had so far was that the developments in this chapter were rushed as hell, if I had to complain about something.

I mean, you like what you like. I'm not gonna be that asshole that insists my opinions are objectively correct . People love Kirino Kousaka, so anything's possible.

It's time to let it go.

Anyway, unrelated anime aside, I don't mind cliches, but the developments this chapter were kinda way too fast. Feels like it's being pushed towards an ending, I hope it's not a cancellation in store or something. Mediocrity aside, yuri manga getting canned is never a happy thing for me.

last edited at Apr 13, 2019 5:03PM