S&M is not about sex

checks the bdsm tag
all NSFW

lol okaaaaay.... sure ;)

Correlation not causation

Explain? Well thanks awfully, here I thought this was a conversation but actually it was instruction all along? Very well, I'm done here then.

Explain (v): 1.1 Make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas:

You were very clear about your...well lack of clarity on the subject matter. So I just tried to offer an explanation since you asked. Don't be an ass about it like you usually are just because I got involved.

Seeing Kotori touch herself while giving oral at the same time, I'm like "ok that's hot but mostly that's REALLY IMPRESSIVE." Takes some serious skill to multitask successfully like that.

Uh, it's not exactly rocket surgery.

Rocket surgery is easy though?

The culture of s&m isnt about sex (or only about sex), what individuals do with it is a whole 'nother story. Too many people watched or read 50 shades of nonsense and think that's what s&m is. Sunstone is a more accurate depiction.

Also what KittyCatOmaniac said.

Just have to read "Nana to Kaoru".

There's absolutely no sex in it (lots of service though), but it's damn thrilling. One of the cutest dom/sub relationship I ever read about.

There's no sex in the sense of going all the way, but it's clearly about sexual tension, about desire; they will get to sex sooner or later (not necessarily in the manga, but you know their relationship is headed in that direction). The SM in Nana to Kaoru is thoroughly sexual. If that's the kind of yardstick people are using for "Oh, no, no, SM isn't a sex thing" I am greatly skeptical.

And I think it's unnecessary, a sort of defensive reaction, taking on board a hint of puritanism from the critics, like "Oh, no, it's not some mere tawdry sex thing"--hello, sex is a foundation of our existence as biological organisms, we wouldn't be here without it as much as we wouldn't be here if we didn't eat. Obsession with sex is a basic important survival trait, so of course sex is intertwined hugely with our cultures, with huge amounts of what we do. Back to SM, if the point isn't driving that fundamental obsession (in a sometimes somewhat obscured way) then I don't get the point; I don't see how sex is just an optional extra. I can envision SM without a sexual component, I guess, but it seems like the drives involved must be much less basic.

(Although I suppose Tachi's reaction to SM is almost nonsexual, it's like a different kind of athletic effort for her. But I don't really grok her take on it for precisely that reason.)

Well, maybe I can properly explain what's going on.

Sadism is the pleasure received when being aggressive towards someone. Kinda like the feeling you have when you want to squeeze a cute animal. Different, but similar. Masochism is the pleasure received when getting aggresived on, if that makes sense. Together it works very well and can become a very selfless relationship: you act as a sadist in order to make your partner feel good, and seeing that in turn makes you feel good. Vis-a-vis for masochism. (fun fact: existentially all babies are technically masochists...but that's a whole 'nutha discussion)

However, it's not necessarily a selfish desire-fulfilment. Harken to the scene where Yuuka commented how seeing Moe was upset about her music player being broken but didn't feel particularly good about it. She doesn't want to see Moe in actual pain. She herself wasn't in tune with her sadist side until she met Moe. There hasn't really been any predominantly sexual themes until this chapter. It's been mostly romantic.

Essentially S&M is about "i like to push my partner" and "i like to be pushed by my partner". It's a cyclical and lovely thing. I can't speak with complete ethos, of course, because I am only partially a masochist. But I can say that the main reason we can see a lot of their dynamic as sexual is because Occidentally (and partially Orientally, but far more for us) we are taught that sex and love are completely interlinked, much more so if physical contact is involved.

I just want to know something.

How can some people dislike Takeda for "only wanting sex" (yet he's always backed off after seeing Yuma uncomfortable), but be fine with Hotaru, who has outright been sexually assaulting Yuma?

We don't particularly dislike Takeda, he's just not a good boyfriend.

Hotaru is far more complicated. She has clearly done a lot more for Yuma over the years, and their relationship is deep and beyond it. I'm no more okay with her actions than I am with Takeda's. Takeda's actually been the better of the two from a purely on-paper perspective. But, of course, things go way beyond what source code stipulates.

ya know for a manga about sadomasochism it's surprisingly not sexual at all XD I both love and hate it. But it's so cute and funny I can hardly complain. I don't want this to end ;-;

S&M isn't really about sex. It's about trust and control and submission. Sex is often associated with it because of ignorant writers and Hollywood.

Kitsune has just won the thread. Go home people, we're done here.

Thank Madoka for this blessed series.

PurpleLibraryGuy

Everyone just read his comment. He nailed this whole juncture with respect to realistic moderation pretty spot on.

Personally I'll still see Fujiwara as a douchenozzle only because of the vibe I'm getting from 'im. But he's completely correct about how Hotaru is being manipulative without particularly trying to be malicious. She's just afeared and letting her doubts run her actions.

^ She dealt this on herself.

Oooo. This is absolutely gorgeous.

I'm not feeling bad for Takeda because all the time he is "I want sex", he doesn't look like he is really in love.

... And Yuma is so stupid ._.

Actually, Takeda's really cool. And he's totally the most gentlemanly bruh in the series. He didn't always focus on sex. He's shy and really awkward, so he's leagues better than Fujiwara. Plus in the end, he didn't hurt Yuma by doing it with her on the latter's impulse. I don't know bout you, but I would totally go for her, but no. He didn't. He's nice like that. I wouldn't even mind if Yuma gets an ending with him.

Wrong, wrong, right, wrong. He has is brain completely focused on sex. The fact he created a "fight" over the fact Yuma "didn't seem like she would like it" is more than enough testament to that. She didn't even resist! He just wasn't confident she would like it (which is good clairvoyance, I suppose).

Being better than Fujiwara is about as much of a compliment as saying "Hey, you're not a complete fucknugget!". I don't think he's bad, don't misread me. But he does not know how to be a proper boyfriend if the line between love and lust is so blurred right now.

Man it's really hard to read this thread with all the stupid comment's from you guy's. I'm getting sad just reading it so i better stop before you ruin this great manga for me. :( Doooitz

Thank you for getting the reference. I app'eciate it.

Abusive is a bit of a leap.

Right now? Yes, but i can see it happening later. The one time Yumas puts up resistance and slaps Hotaru, she turns it around immediately and puts all the blame on Yuma, because there is just no way she could ever "abuse" her, if she didn't wanted it to happen. Sounded like a classic abuser tactic.
If they get together and everything is fine? Both will be happy. But if an argument/jealousy comes up I'm pretty sure Hotaru would use her skills to controll Yuma in some way, depending on how insecure she is about the relationsship and Yumas feelings. If Hotarus believes she only got Yuma into a relationship through her tricks and manipulation, can she ever be sure that Yuma loves her and will stay with her if she stops manipulating her? But that is all a big What if? about how it could develop from her "little" manipulation. It could also end with sunshine and rainbows.
So right now i would say that she isn't abusive yet, but she's going into a dangerous direction.

She is, but from what I know of her personality I don't think Yuma will let her do that, or for that matter Hotaru won't let her do that to herself. Yuma has enough strength and independence that she won't be dependent on Hotaru, and while will probably obviously be the passive one in bed, she'd likely give a lot of what I call "power love" in the relationship. Without question I don't know what's going to happen, of course. But that's optimal end at this point.

Ha! This was great.

I see we've reached the point in the Drama/Angst department where everyone starts venting in the comments.

In the words of the great sp4zie: IT BEGINS.

God I really wish they continue the series beyond the ending we saw in the anime. It's selfish, I know, but I think the writing is good enough they could find a cool way to continue the series with all the characters still intact. I don't know what would stop them other than simply getting cold feet.

i could think of cool ways to bring them all back but i doubt it'll happen. like all this being a test and now all of them protect haru now or something

I was kinda thinking the same thing, with there being some overarching grand plot going on. The anime did have that one ominous scene at the end with Tokaku's sensei, and while Diomedéa had to take the plot in different directions for budget reasons, they very well would not get away with doing anything the copyright owners didn't approve of since they don't have near enough money to buy all the rights to everything they do.

It's always sad to know that a relationship was completely fine and could have worked if you had just stuck with it. Miscommunication is the number one enemy of all relationships ever.

Am I the only one that thinks this is Hotaru's own weird way to say she needs Yuma in her life and loves her in her own twisted way?

No that's exactly what this story is about...and it cuts both ways. Yuma needs someone who'll treat her gently but firmly and not sway no matter which way the wind blows. It's clear, cut, and obvious they both are head over heels for each other, they're just caught in this awkward love polygon that's not so simple to climb out of until Yuma accepts her feelings completely.

I wonder if peoples' opinions of Takeda have changed regarding the events of chapter 5. We all know the other guy is a real douche, but I've read a lot of people lumping Takeda in with him before this, mainly saying he was only concerned with getting laid on the trip and didn't care about the protagonist at all. Personally, I can no longer say that's the truth, but I wonder if others have had their opinions swayed.

I've been on his side until I got substantial evidence to prove otherwise. Ultimately at best he doesn't understand the difference between love and lust.

But seriously? A fight because your girlfriend "didn't seem like she would like" sex with you? That's the tipper. Whether he likes her or not, he's not ready to be a good boyfriend.

Heh, Hotaru is really a grade A emotional manipulator. And I'm afraid Yuma has no chance against her, if no one helps her. So I guess she will end up in an abusive relationship with Hotaru?

That's too simple. Very well could be an option, but as far as I'm concerned if Hotaru eventually does get Yuma in a clear way, she'll chill with the control. I don't think she herself is an emotional manipulator, or for that matter is particularly trying. She just is doing what she wants in desperation.

Hotaru did finally speak openly that what she was doing with Yuma was cheating; moving forward Yuma will be aware of it too. Maybe then she'll finally understand and accept what her hearts says? I think it'll take an emotional moment of Hotaru finally speaking openly about what she feels.

people are forgetting that communication is a 2 player game, aka the reader has as much of an say into the story they are perceiving as the writer

Maus Gets a lot if it. Ultimately writing is a conversation, and whether or not the writer had original meaning in what he/she said, the reader gets to define what they think of it. Granted there are such things as wrong interpretations, but if the reader sees something special or different in an entity the writer totally didn't intend for/anticipate, it still is all the more valid.

This is Death Of the Author, is it not? With a dash of Intent Is Not Magic for flavour.

It is very much like that. I've always thought that title as a bit of a misnomer...but for very complicated philosophical reasons it's also very accurate haha.

As an aside, the Beatles were famous for putting stuff in their songs and album covers in order to mislead and generally mess with people doing minute analysis of their work. The whole "Paul is dead" thing being a great example.

I Am the Walrus is literally 100% meant to screw with people overanalyzing their works.

And by I Am the Walrus you of course mean Glass Onion. I'm on to your little games.

winkyface.emoji

God I really wish they continue the series beyond the ending we saw in the anime. It's selfish, I know, but I think the writing is good enough they could find a cool way to continue the series with all the characters still intact. I don't know what would stop them other than simply getting cold feet.

Kobayashi-san, ΩGJ

What colour was the dress again?

White and gold.

I'm pretty sure it was black and blue.

...bees?

Black and yellow.

(Better version) Black and yellow

...

Aren't we already at the point of subtext with this?

I was alluding to this:

But thank you all for making it all the better

last edited at Aug 8, 2015 8:34PM

Holy shit I made a half-joke about me possibly overanalyzing something and a few days later this is what happens.

people are forgetting that communication is a 2 player game, aka the reader has as much of an say into the story they are perceiving as the writer

Maus Gets a lot if it. Ultimately writing is a conversation, and whether or not the writer had original meaning in what he/she said, the reader gets to define what they think of it. Granted there are such things as wrong interpretations, but if the reader sees something special or different in an entity the writer totally didn't intend for/anticipate, it still is all the more valid.

It makes writing fun! You make your content, pick your meanings (kind of), and throw it out there and let the audience run with it.

tl;dr You don't know that they're trying to be simplistic anymore than we know they're trying to be layered. Plenty of writers do think about this stuff, and do pay attention to what they're writing.

I can see eye-to-eye with you as a writer myself, but I will say that there are often times that I don't put deeper meaning in some things I have written. You don't see anyone dissecting the color of the bedsheets in Madoka or the color of the wallpaper in Toradora, and those two shows are so overflowing with symbols and greater meaning you could write a 50-page thesis on the first 6 episodes alone, each.

In this case, Shou explicitly called to attention the words Keiko had written rather than having her say it herself, or just briefly showing them in passing. There was an allotted upper third given a hefty amount of space in a panel where nothing much else was going on. Enough reason to believe he did want us to notice some meaning in the descriptions.

As an aside, the Beatles were famous for putting stuff in their songs and album covers in order to mislead and generally mess with people doing minute analysis of their work. The whole "Paul is dead" thing being a great example.

I Am the Walrus is literally 100% meant to screw with people overanalyzing their works.