They also increased Yuma's bust size a lot.

What was she, a D cup? I don't see why/how they'd be so big, unless it's the boobs' force of inertia or something as she jumps up
Hotaru's supposed to be a cup size bigger too. If Yuma's already really friggin big, Hotaru's fucked

Now I think we can tell with certainty what genre of yuri the anime will be lol. I prefered Yuma with smaller bust size tbh.
Also Takeda's hair should be black, not brown. Idk why they changed the color

last edited at Nov 19, 2016 9:29AM

Abuse relationship what? Nah
It was a relationship that started to help each other from unwanted confessions (dramatic and forceful ones) so while it was fake I suspect Fujiwara might have felt that both Hotaru and himself were similar. Camaraderie? friendship? Whatever it was that met an inconvenience because .. then he found out about her being a DFB.

Hotaru why are you so horny and retarded? >_>;

In the flashback, there was a hint of anger Fujiwara let slip when he found out he was just being used by Hotaru after he saw her with Yuma so perhaps the trip wasn't the first time but what is the worst is that Hotaru was ready so breaking up or whatever outcome happened was expected for her (sex was normal for her from what is implied so no big deal there) even Fujiwara was surprised a bit asking her if that was what she wanted.

They're accomplices and ironically both being the piece of shit they're ironically are more similar than they were before (btw if I got it right Fujiwara cheating was just a fake rumor cuz himself doesn't wants to be involved with anyone for the time being and Hotaru is a good cover).

Have you read the translation somewhere? It makes sense why he doesn't break up with her when he caught her and Yuma together, if this was a relationship to avoid confessions.

It was implied he did cheat, because after a trip a girl was texting him. But maybe she was one of these he was trying to avoid. Well if that's true, it makes the story more interesting

I love WDTFS but I think the Seju x Sumin baiting is getting old. if Seju and Sumin are not going to end up together. please, just stop this charade already. first of all, I don't buy Sungji's break up woes cause even on times of distressed. she's as flat as it gets. Seju's interference felt like it was only a plot device to "deepen" Sumin and Sungji's relationship (than progress the story) which imo doesn't do anything to justify, why they should be the end couple. all their flashbacks only involves them flirting and flirting and flirting. . . . . . it only proves how shallow their relationship was, imo this is also like a cheap tactic by the author to insert "mushy" Sumin and Sungji scenes to please their shippers. I get the reason on why their pandering to them but how many times will do this? it's like every chapter we have this. I also found it funny that Sumin is more devastated than Sungji. when it supposed to be the other way around.

tbh, I'm kinda wishing to end this webtoon already. just to see the conclusion of Seju's story since the ambiguity of the ending of this webtoon is already down the drain. I have no doubt in my mind that Team Gaji will not take the risk of disappointing their loyal Sumin and Sungji shippers. so, there goes that "elusive" ending.

I feel like this too. It's getting too much for Seju's pov. I mean, she has done all of this for nothing afterall. Not that she hasn't done any mistakes of course, but really her story is just very sad.
On the other hand, if they just dropped her parts the story would become less interesting imo. So I expect for this to be dragged until the very end.
But other times I wish they would just create some drama over Dawoon and Sungji, with Sumin being jealous and Seju just going away. So the bait would die already and everyone could move on, including the readers :P

Another thing, in drama love triangles, it's very common for the mc to not end up with anyone in the end. So I've been thinking if this might even apply here too.

Yeah, I know..xD well, people arespeculating that it could be the "twist" at the end where most readers would flip table while others would throw those confetto..xD and I'm the latter tbh haha

I think all of the three characters are nice their own way. I just believe there is more substance between Seju and Sumin's relationship.
I think Sumin and Sungji are pretty different to work in the longterm. Besides, Dawoon seems to represent that Sungji could move on from Sumin. And I think, even if she is a healer type of person, she would end up being messed up near Sumin instead of helping her.
So far, the story is almost over, and there is not a "Dawoon" for Seju. She's always about Sumin.

If they can write a smooth transition into Seju x Dawoon, they really are the smoothest motherfuckers in manhwa town lol.

I would prefer Seju x Nami.

Lool at least that would make some sense. Seju just deserves more than a random person to throw at her so she doesn't completely get discarded just like that.

Sumin crying, I think she will realize she loves Sungji and won't want to lose what she had. We've never seen her cry for Seju EVER.

But this is totally not true xD She just said in this chapter she cried more than 31 times for Seju when they broke up. She also cries now, which can be argued that it's not for Seju, but I think Seju is also a part of it too.

Sungji and Sumin flashbacks are only natural to appear now. We can't say this indicates they will end up together only because we get some flashbacks now. Sungji got flashbacks with Dawoon after she broke up with Sumin. Which someone could eve say this is a hint they are setting things up for Sungji and Dawoon endgame.

She also told me to stop reading wdtfs already xD but of course, I won't stop reading it.lol

Lol I think other people have tried this before, me included. But this story is not something that can be easily dropped. Especially because the ending is not predictable.

In Sumin's situaiton though, It seems like she physically can't give Seju a second chance. It's a two ending word, she was so in love with Seju and that was why she got so hurt over it too.
Not to mention her parents dying and mole guy situation.

last edited at Nov 18, 2016 10:11AM

I still root for Sumin and Seju. I think as long as they have feelings for each other, they should just try and work for it for once. Well, until the very last chapter, we still can't tell for sure. But even if they don't end up together, Sumin has to work on her trauma to be able to live like a functioning person again.

I don't know who Sumin loves more, but I think Seju needs and maybe loves Sumin a little more. Sungji can move on from Sumin eventually. I don't think it would have a positive effect on her in the longterm if they date again for too long.

Ohh yes you're right. I didn't notice the bruise on her cheek missing in the next pannel :/
Man, these flashbacks need to stop

Sungji has never been emotionally in love with Sumin.

It seems like her definition of love is more highschool-like I'd say? Doesn't mean she is not in love, it's maybe the way she expresses it, it sounds like that.
Also, it's a bit suspicious how Dawoon was added now. Makes me think that Sunji might end up with her instead of Sumin in the end.

Even now, I don't think we can predict the end, but damn Seju makes me feels so sad every time she shows up.

Edit:
Also, it seems like Sumin has been permanently screwed up now. Because she says "You should have said I love you before, when I still wanted someone to hold me" Probably means she has now lost her abillity to want to be with someone :/

last edited at Nov 18, 2016 9:08AM

Spoilers ahead cause I don't want to fill this page with black lines xD
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

^ The abuse scene and the non-consensual things that followed it looks to be part of the flashback showing Hotaru meeting Fujiwara. If anything, it shows that their relationship has always been abusive and fake....poor Hotaru ; - ;

I think this particular scene is in the present. Because we can see that Yuma and Hotaru kiss now and Fujiwara sees them from the window again. Keep in mind, Hotaru and Yuma didn't kiss before chapter one. So this couldn't be a scene from the past.
Fujiwara probably got mad that she essentially cheats on him. Seriously, they should just break up already. I could see why Hotaru wouldn't break up on him if he wasn't an asshole or abusive, since she still thinks Yuma doesn't like her, but this is inexcusable.

I mean, thinking about it, as much as he loves Yuma, he was willing to break-up with her when he thought that she was forcing herself to be with him; it would be really out-of-character of him to be against Yuma wanting to be with Hotaru.

I root for the happy yuri ending, but I think he's been a good person so far and he at last deserves to not get screwed in the end by this mess.

Yea, any yuri anime is a great news, but still I really wish they picked anything else. If not something great, at least series that I actually did enjoy.

To be honest, most romance mangas are based on cliches. It's not easy to write a very original slice of life romance story imo. Because it's a bit of limitating by its own nature.
Sure, they can have real life issues like coming out to friends, familly etc. But if every author chose to show this in every manga, it would end up being boring again when we read it.

I, on the other hand, think they could have not start dating so soon. But it seems like Saburuta wanted to make a story about them during dating, instead of mostly the drama before.
Citrus have become better lately though. I'm not a big fan of it, but I think some problems it has are justified for the reasons above.
It's usually short stories that get to be better, because only most important stuff is being mentioned. But when they have to make longer stories like this, it's normal for problems to arise.

Only long yuri drama stories that I think have a natural flow is Wdtfs and Their Story. And that's also because the authors focus on the side characters quite lot too. It's not really possible imo to solely focus on the two people of the main pairing in a long story and make it interesting too.
Compared to the other stories around, Citrus is not as bad as some people say. It's not great either, but I see why it got an anime adaptation.

last edited at Nov 18, 2016 8:39AM

Ohh flashback. I thought this was new drama with these other people, but this makes more sense.
Also it could be me, but Takeda seems to not really be mad when he thinks of Hotaru and Yuma. I'm telling you, he might end up shipping them lol. But I feel sorry for him tbh. At least Yuma doesn't date him now.
The Hotaru abuse needs to stop though

Oh oh major drama ahead.

It has nothing to do with theme. They're just the best selling series in the magazine after YrYr. In fact, had it been done last year, maybe we would get a Yuri Danshi anime instead of NTR.
I don't think it would be better received.

I'm not sure. Yuru Yuri is not very yuri imo. It's more of the "adolescence" type of yuri imo. And people like to see cute girls doing cute stuff without the fear their waifus will be stolen from a male character

^ Are you sure your avatar shouldn't be Junko instead, MacySan? ^ _ ^"

Hahah why do you say that? xD I actually don't like her :P I like antagonist characters, but when they are also relatable and have a good side to them too. Junko is just pure evil and crazy.

This is something that I've noticed even here tbh, it's quite a polarizing manga for ppl reading it. Still, impressionable is better than being forgettable, in a way.

They say negative advertisment is good too. Bad impressions are better than something being forgetable.

Also, it should be noted that the two series that are being animated both have to do with breaking taboos. I wonder why they chose to animate this theme in particular.

Hmm I was wondering if people in Japan started asking for more yuri. This season we had a lot of subtext yuri,so these shows might also be an experiment to see if the audiences are interested in this type of genre.

It's pretty obvious this won't have a het end. It's a manga on Yuri Hime, after all. It could be a bad end, but not het end.

This. What I'm worried more is not the ending, it's whether the drama will go out of hand at some point. So far it's fine, but I don't know what will happen with Fujiwara's photos and Takeda. I don't want to see them being outed in front o the whole school or Fujiwara uploading them on a site or something.

Eh, I wouldn't call her a yuri mangaka, she does straight [smutty] stuff too, tho a large portion (majority?) is yuri. Her arsenal is quite diverse, I'd say.

It's interesting to note, if you check the ratings on NTR you'll see the majority of votes are either 1/10 or 10/10. There is also 7/10. They are extreme reactions, so this shows NTR is something that leaves an impression, whether good or bad.

It reminds me, in a documentary about what type of woman was considered the most attractive. They had a conventionally pretty woman and another who was more "in the eye of the beholder" type of attractive, let's say.
The second one won against the first, because the reactions she was causing were extreme. Some people were giving her really high ratings, while others really low.
Meawhile, the first one was getting steadily fine ratings from everyone.

Perhaps it's bias from having a preconception of the series before reading, but I didn't really notice how the earlier chapters were done badly. Though I do agree that subsequent chapters did a really great job detailing Hotaru's real feelings with the reveal that she only started dating guys because she felt that she was being a burden to Yuma's popularity and how her self-destructive tendancies were likely due to her feeling that she doesn't deserve to be with Yuma openly as her girlfriend.

I think part of the reason some people hate NTR is because they have only read the first chapters and then dropped it. It was one chaptter every two months, so imagine reading the first 6 chapters in the period of one year.
In the beggining Hotaru seems like she sexually assaults Yuma, and is trying to screw Yuma's relationship.
I first read NTR in March, and it was around chapter 7. Admitedly I dropped it because I thought it was too much. But after a while I happened to check it again out of curiosity, and it was when Hotaru showed remorse and starting showing another side of herself. So I found this character interesting.

This might probably be just my own speculation, but it seems like whenever Hotaru gets close to Yuma but the latter backs away, she ends up throwing herself into another self-destructive activity, almost as if she feels guilty or wrong for her advances towards Yuma. The amount of internalized hatred that Hotaru has for herself due to her feelings for Yuma makes her character so compelling to follow; she wants to be with Yuma, but the latter's responses is making her hate herself even more for having such feelings.

I wonder if we will ever get a chapter explaining Hotaru's background and why she is self destructive, as well as manipulative. We know she only lives with her father who is usually off to work. It's highly likely she doesn't talk with her mother, or she is even dead.
I think they should give us some more background stories in the anime. It will make the characters more relatable and sympathetic. Also will give more episodes.

Also, having read some other Kodama works (my second favorite is Cocytus) it seems like Yuma will start showing yandere tendencies from now on. It's how Kodama works. She makes the characters fall too deep. Maybe even Takeda will start changing after he finds out about Yuma and Hotaru.
Either way, if the ending is happy and none of them actually gets into trouble, I think the angsty trip will be interesting.

last edited at Nov 16, 2016 7:37AM

The nsfw art from the sex scenes in the VN Kindred Spirits on the Roof weren't male gazey.
Hmm, this doesn't seem male gazey XD

This one seems like NTR fanservice to me to be honest. I don't know, maybe you say ti for NTR because of the boob touching in the covers? :P Because the rest is pretty regular.
Anyway, even if this is intended for male audiences mostly, I think most female readers will also like it. So it doesn't matter

this one maybe? You don't have to read it btw, just.. skim maybe, at best.

Yeah, I think this types are more hentai-sh and to me not aesthetically appealing. Especially these weird crotch openings

I heard that it was cus they liked the girls' relationships in the show. Honestly, I really liked Valkyrie Drive, regardless of the fanservice. Fanservice, male gazey or not, isn't necessarily a bad thing for me, I wouldn't dismiss something just cus it has fanservice. VD's were pretty extreme actually, but I still enjoyed other aspects of it, with the occasional/frequent cringe at the breasts, but I still enjoyed it.

I watched itfor the relationships too lol. Not a fan of this type of fanservice, but it doesn't stop me when the rest is good.

I was just commenting on Ntrap's. Its fanservice isn't a bad thing, it wouldn't stop me from reading it, but I just couldn't help but notice the way the girls are usually presented, that's all. It certainly matches the premises I guess? People reading it aren't people who absolutely want/seek to read about healthy relationships. NTrap is erotic, it's dramatic, it's exciting I guess? It fits.

Yeah I guess if you see it from this perspective it makes sense. But personally I always thought NTR was pretty tame to its fanservice. Maybe Hotaru's border assaulting character makes it seem more like it? Instead of the nudity only

last edited at Nov 16, 2016 7:13AM

I see what you mean, but i don't think this type of fanservise falls under the "male gazey" category.
Can you bring an anime or manga example where there is regular female nudity or yuri action that you think doesn't belong to this category?
Because by these criteria seems like every female nudity show is basically male gaze.

To me, shows like VDM fall under that category, where the target audience is men. They usually have big boobs and the girls show more promiscouty than focusing on the romance. Also phallic shaped stuff.
Shows like these are more targeted to male audience. Not that this is what every guy likes, or not interested in the romance though

NTR starts from the romance and feelings that lead to the fanservice. In the less female friendly shows you are refering, romance doesn't exist, or it's there as subplot or to only lead to fanservice.

Surprisingly, VDM had quite an appeal to female audience as well though.

@ Faust

Not only men read this type of fanservice though. So I wouldn't call it necesserily male gaze, just simply fanservice.
Objectification is used in a negative way. But not all sexually suggestive actions are automatically derogative. Following this logic pretty much every anime could be viewed as such. We could even say it when a girl wears a dress that shows a bit of her cleavage.

NTR fanservice is not similar to what you posted above. Those are hentai ones and obviously there are panty shots, etc and more provocative poses. Also I assume way more happen in these shows than what the covers simply show.
Even if they chose to make NTR an echii type, they won't go to this level for sure. But imo a bit of fanservice in some yuri shows is not bad, whatever target audience they might have on mind.

NTR Trap has always felt male gazey to me, there's this way Kodama draws them, presents them. I wonder (+sorta fear) how male gazey the anime will be >_>

Tbh I wouldn't mind if this was as echii as it is in the manga. To me the fanservice is normal, not something over the top, like say VDM.
But echii genre most of the time is judged poorly by the audiences. And if we take into account the already controversial nature of this manga, it will be an exploding situation imo. So only for this reason I think it should be better it they make it more age approapirate.
Since there are two canon yuri anime in one year centered on the romance exclusively and not as subplots or purely for fanservice, I think they should try to make it as appealing as possible.

Both Citrus and NTR Trap are doing really well in Japan

Have you read that anywhere? I mean, I knew about Citrus but had no idea about NTR. Anyway, I feel like yuri genre has gotten a bit more recognised since the past year. We got all these shows this season with yuri subtext. Now they are doing two canon yuri shows in one year. Maybe this genre is gaining more audience

Well, whatever western fans think of the series, Japanese fans clearly like it (and Citrus) because both seem to be doing quite well.

True. But there are some people that claim popular is different than being good. Imo indifference is the opposite of like. In this case, I think people love to hate this, but they are still somehow attracted to read more. Obviously everyone, but some of them at least.
It's a different type of yuri we haven't had since a long time.

@ Rina

I'm glad there are people who like this too. It's refreshing to read positive reactions.

I think people are too quick to judge this, because in the beggning there are too many things going wrong. When I first read NTR I didn't like Hotaru either. I did share the same opinion as some other people who dislike it. But after a while, we can see that she is more than what it seems to be. She genuenly cares for Yuma, even though her ways were not always right. This shows in chapter 8, where we can see their background and when Hotaru first got a boyfriend.
I believe Kodama has done a very good job with her character. Of course there are some clihes too though. But it's up to the reader to decide if they ruin the story for them.

But of course, angst and more dark themed mangas tend to be avoided by some readers. To me, I just like angst. I wouldn't want to watch yuris like this all the time, but once in a while it brings a balance between all the fluffy and subtext yuri we usually get.

last edited at Nov 15, 2016 4:31PM

I wonder how Yuma's and Hotaru voices will be. I'd imagine Hotaru sounding a bit like Matsuri's from Citrus, and Hotaru's voice like Yuzu. Although I'd really like if Hotaru actually has a smoother voice instead of a more child-like. But she always just striked me like this type.
Also Fujiwara's voice actor is the one of Sebastian from Black Butler.

Maybe I'm the only one with this opinion, but I'm actually a little bit happy about this information because we've finally a yuri anime even if this is in 2017. (Was a yuri anime coming this year? I don't know.) And this is something new with the theme, even if this anime is...special...

Yeah, my thoughts too. Back in September I thought it would be really cool to have this type of manga animated. I never expected for it to actually happen though.
But the shistorm is already here, so I'll try to stay away from the forums a bit. It's certanly controversial, but Ithink it doesn't deserve the hate it gets.

last edited at Nov 15, 2016 12:33PM