Your argument was actually great, and I enjoyed reading it.

Thanks for saying so. I always enjoy a good debate, and encouraging people to think more.

But, you too, have a good New Years

(probably around 9-12).

I'd say it's safe to assume it's more then that. We already have nine girls actively gushing over her. And they are meant to represent the student body. Fujiwara also implies it happens a lot, and she's not a first year student.

You could do with structuring your... theories/allegories/not-sure-what-it's-called-really/constructs more clearly from the beginning

You're right, I should. But, I kind of have a habit of forgetting it include the obvious parts of the mental process involved.

But, yes. Happy New Year.

You can quantify and explore all options that may be availible to one individual.

Did you forget we are talking about a large group? If so, that would explain a lot. Listen, Because so many girls confess some of the HAVE to land on "blatantly obvious" point of the spectrum. And, because of those people being examples Fujiwara would know the feelings are serious.

Since you classify teary-eyedness/crying as the base for shyness.

No, I put 'shyness' on the same spectrum as teary eyed/crying. See first point about large groups.

Go look up more about Game Theory, and then you'll get my point. Predicting behavior of large groups is simpler than that of a single person. But, both can be done. Also, google 'spectrum'.

Well, I get where you are coming from, though I can't agree. I've said my piece in full.

Fair enough. Have fun... I should really be working on my current project, too.

You're clearly investing a lot into this story. Maybe you ought to go write a thesis on it and get back to us in a couple years. I'm sure we'll all be waiting on the edge of our seats.

Not really. this is very basic information processing that does not require much thought. Though, I might be more offended by your remark if you were smart enough to realize you don't need to quote a whole post, and subsequently spam the page with the same image.

Sex association is even

Not in the context you're using it, though. Gender roles and the names you associate with them are not concurrent. Gender roles come from you conditioned memory, while names come from your experiential/learned memory.

But even if they was the case, she did not personally know Fujiwara long enough to develop a conditioned reflex to consider her male. She only first started thinking of her as a male partially though chapter one. And between then and the end of the chapter is only a few days at most.

Except she didn't say 'boyfriend', she said 'prince' which is still a male adjective. This isn't a case of name association, because they are different words.

NorthernDruid:
http://pastebin.com/217200Nd

so what would you compare it to?

Mmm... I'd put it some where at the level between First Love Sisters and Gokujou Drops.

You may have missed the caps I added to the quote of myself. I'll repeat it here. That tells me that AT THE TIME THEY FIRST SAID IT, that neither one was thinking of it as an actual romantic relationship.

Yes, I got that. But I'm not seeing the relevance. She is STILL referring to her as a boy as of the end of chapter one, when she developed the romantic feelings. Thus countering acting anything she said before that. Because the end of the chapter shows the most developed status of their relationship.

And my point being; if we are to consider Miu's feelings serious, we also have to consider all the other girls feelings as serious.

Hmmm? I'm confused as to what you are trying to get at. What does the page number how to do with it?

That's the last page, and she still referring to Fujiwara as a boy, and blushing implies romantic feelings.

At that point she most definitely did not harbor any romantic feelings.

No, she definitely did. That's the whole point of the last page. It's fairly conclusive about it, too.

keep up the good fight!

Thanks, I try. Though I repeat myself a lot people people read like, one post, and rage it's not something positive about a series that they like.

And yes, I think it's a huge point that both Miu and Kaori say they want Fujiwara as their BOYFRIEND. That tells me that at the time they first said it, that neither one was thinking of it as an actual romantic relationship, even though Kaori clearly believes that is what she is after. This even though Kaori was crying.

As I said in one of my Pastebin links. Miu's feelings are clearly being presented as serious through the stories perspective. This is obvious as of the last page of chapter one. The same page where she also refers to Fujiwara as a prince (a.k.a. a male). So if we're to take Miu's feelings as serious even though she refers to her as a boy there is no excuse to think the other girls are not serious as well.

Don't get me wrong, I think the story is decent enough. It's just nothing in comparison to Morinaga's other works.

Konetsu :
http://pastebin.com/HEYvrC97

esn:

This event makes me think that it's only going to last 4-5 chapters.

Well, it hasn't even been in every issue of Hirari since it was published. Which tells us a few things. Morinaga herself is not very invested in this story, or she would have put forth the effort to get another chapter out. Which is probably the same reason the writing is sub par.

It always seemed to me that Morinaga preferred very feminine characters reflecting a refreshing lack of gender roles, so I was surprised by the addition of a story with a boyish girl and the "boyfriend" terminology.

This, so much of this. Another reason why this story is bad.

NorthernDruid:
http://pastebin.com/750VbXWp

Pastebin is free, I recommend you use it.

That's a pretty racy Santa outfit.

Quiet. Sayaka is as pure as the driven snow.

awww boo, you're no fun. no one's attacking you. for the record,

I didn't think you/they were. I'm just tiered and for some reason thought that would be funny.

it's " yo momma."

I was going to say that, but apparently the grammatically correct part of my brain took over.

NorthernDruid... Wow. I'm going to reply with pastebin so it stops cluttering the thread. Because we are no longer on topic of the story, and this is just going to be me telling you why you're wrong. This has morphed into a mostly definitional argument.

But I will point out two things publicly.

Now to be honest I find it difficult to understand your arguments, because they're so vague.
i'm not really keen on rereading the entire thread just to be sure),

Nothing I have said has been even remotely vague, and if you're not going to read the whole thread this pointless and unfair to me because it'll just lead to me repeating information that would have other wise proved you wrong with out me saying anything.

http://pastebin.com/Fzg1xiH3

reeling off 'yo momma joke

ciega , Your momma so [insert witty, yuri based pun here].

What? Something is definitely being lost in translation.

Well, yeah. That's kind of my point.

What you claim as objectivity comes off as you claiming your personal opinion of one or more tropes

Well they're not. And it's kind of surprising how you said so much, but ultimately added nothing to the argument. I am referring to your whole post. Not just this line.

And the entire underclassmen-fawning-over-one-popular-upperclassman is so common I can't count all the works that use it,

Okay... But how does that help your argument? That's not one of the contradictions I pointed out.

hence the comedy tag

You can't use a third parties tagging system to support your claim. Because it is but only subject to change, it has no official bases. Thus reflects nothing about the story in terms of finite aspects.

It's combined with the "insincere confession" where a such underclassman confesses but doesn't expect to be accepted and/or doesn't want an actual romantic relationship complete with sexual encounters

Again, this adds nothing to the argument, and has already been said multiple times. it also does not disprove the points made.

in Kisses, Sighs & Cherry-blossom pink

There it is not used as a plot device for the sole purpose of forcing the story along.

in the genre (or at least the comedy-aligned subset of the genre).

See point about tagging.

since that's what you did in the first complaining post, the contradictions you see are nonexistant

This is what you call a faulty syllogism, just because you say they are not contradictions doesn't mean it's true. You need to support your claim with reasons. It also does not help you are confusing things I said were clichés and things I said where contradictions.

those external conditions

They are not external conditions because they are directly from the story. You just are not seeing the relation to it.

RL conceived notions of how girl-frienship-hierarchies

The conditions don't come from the lack of realism, you really need to reread the thread. Because this point has been explained a few times.

I also find your "only one possibility for ways things can happen" attitude (bad word, can't think of anything better right now) to be hillariously naive.

No, that is the only way she could develop a preconception of that form without being literally retarded. If she did not lean it that way she would have no reason to think the girls confessing to her would not be serious.

Lastly, your whole post was mostly empty words, and repeating common knowledge ad nauseam. But, it is clear you don't qualify and perceive information in logically coherent manner. A few examples of this are how you confused clichés and contradictions, thought that a tagging system holds some type of sway over the story (it is actually the exact opposite), and that you claim something is 'hilariously naive', but don't even give a single counter example.

You're free to argue with me all you like, but I insist you give examples and reasons supported by actual events. Not just "I say so, therefore it's true."

the baseless and banal bickering

Not a single thing I have said has been baseless. The same can not be said for others though.

that whole autism business and the like

But see. No one was ever actually being called autistic. The only reason that became a thing was because Moderath did not realize it was not being used literally, and refused to read the whole thread. The most I have done in the way of "personal insults" is ask people to clarify their poorly worded English statements.

Whoa!
Naughty!

Priceless.

Compared to everything else that's said here? This conversation might as well be national level debate.

Can we request some cleanup in this thread? This all seems like pointless arguing to me.

Do you have some aversion against people actually talking? God forbid a thread be filled with something more than emoticons and fluff speak.

Wow... 'dat length.

they sound like absolute shut-downs with no room for debate.

Because there isn't. I'm not arguing subjective aspects. I'm reiterating the events of the story in a more simplified manner.

I actually thought she meant to use the "romantic relationship" as a reason to reject confessions,

You have it backwards. Fujiwara has no reason to think Miu is not just using her. Thus no reason for her to consider them friends. If she can't pick up on if the girls confessing to her are serious or not she should also not have the ability to see that Miu is doing more than just using her.

Are harems that uncommon in real life?

Yes, they are. And it is a vastly over used cliché. That's also not what I said was unrealistic, even though they are. I said harems force plot progression and story development.

and doesn't seem to imply harems on their own

I'm not sure you understand what I harem is in the Japanese mediums. I harem is when three or more people hold romantic feelings for a single person. And it is clearly well past that both with characters who get panel time, and back ground implied characters.

the Japanese people to deem it a normal part of adolescence.

No they don't. It's sheer wish fulfillment fantasies.

I'm a little confused about when this was pointed out.

Are you serious? Did you even read the whole thread? I don't think this could be any more clear. I have said in prior posts that all girls schools are not jam packed with lesbians. I am just clarifying that further here by also pointing out it is unrealistic.

By cliché, meaning in stories? I thought it was a real stereotype too, and not only because of manga.

Google the differance, this post is to long as is.

I didn't see Miu's signals of being upset as vague, but maybe that's just me.

As I have told other people. you are confusing knowledge you have as a read with the knowledge the characters have of each other.

There are cases where the girls are using the subject of their love/admiration as a replacement for a man [...]

Do you really think anything you said here is not common knowledge for anyone who reads yuri, or even people who don't? I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.

Experimentation is definitely a thing.

No one said it wasn't. But this does not help justify any point because again it is not realistic for there to be so many of this type of person in a single place at one time. You as basing your whole argument of clichés in the anime/manga medium.

Fujiwara seems to have a certain preconception of such confessions

This can only really go one way. She has experience/knowledge of the girls not being serious about relationships in an all girls school . meaning she herself was in a relationship with someone before and they left for various reasons. And in this case she would know that the feelings could be serious because her's would have been. This can also be applied to someone she knew closely, it does not actually have to be her. She would have the experience/knowledge either way.

That "preconception" has no basses because that only way she could gain it would also disprove it.

When/where was the exposition on this?

There are only three basic ways a confession can go. Teary eyed/crying, casual, and jokingly. If we are to take the stories word for it that confession happen on a regular bases then "teary eyed/crying" must have occurred, and she would have no reason to think they are not serious. And based on the last few pages of chapter two we already see a girl crying over Fujiwara. So we can only speculate it has happened before.

Humans have varying levels of sensitivity

That "varying" level is really only governed by one thing; how much it conflicts with their personal opinion of something. If they like something and someone else points out flaws in it they automatically perceive it as being mad. If you look that the people post histories you can find many, many examples of this.

I think they felt you were forcing your theories and views on others in a less than diplomatic manner

Probably because I was. These are not subjective matters we are discussing.

I know there are other non-Anglophones who are also similarly unforgiving of those who don't master English

It's not a matter of whether they are good at English. I am not faulting them for not being adept at English, I am telling them it's stupid for them to assume they understand the events of the story better than a person who clearly has a better grasp of the language. An example would be elevown understand of the word "some". By placing it in a different place in the statement then where it actually was, it entirely changes the meaning. If cases like that happen in simple phrases like that you can safely bet it also happens when anything is implied or slightly complicate in wording.

I think he was stating the facts as he perceived them, but did not express it in as direct or absolute a manner. He may be allowing room for debate since he did not imply his perception of the facts was the only truth.

Yet there is no room for debate because there are absolutes. If he has presented points to contrary of mind without them being blatant influenced by opinions I would not have said anything and responded in kind. But as they clearly were opinions I had not reason to not present my points as finite.

That last sentence in particular is an example of why some would be misled to thinking you carry a hostile and/or angry attitude with your comments.

Ever think there might be a reason I spoilered it?

Someone's overly upset. And it's nice to see your now just spewing baseless insults. Posting in any way shape or form does not prove I have no life.

These are all opinions

No, can't say that about what I'm saying. You also mean they are my theories. Opinion are used solely for denoting personal likes and dislikes Another example of just a general lack of knowledge.

'Scuz me. I have trouble picking up on social cues. You should have used a word like "aspy" then I would have gotten it.

Maybe the fact that a multitude of other people who also responded to the post did not mention anything about it might have been a clue?

First of all, elevown has no trouble with english. You're obviously continuing to support your over-analytical self by claiming shortcut words are grammatical errors.

Nope, not even a little. I explained why it's a problem, and I said nothing about his spelling. Which is also very bad. And do you honestly think I don't understand the internet is a global concept? More over, I don't know why you would think I'm mad about anything. You would have no reason to assume that unless you were looking for an excuse to dismiss my points without a solid reason why.

There is a difference between the growing relationship she has with Miu compared to those fan girls that claim to love Fujiwara.
in terms of physical closeness but rather intimate closeness
That's what she meant by distancing.

You mean the relationship she as no reason to think is anything other than explanation? You're confusing knowledge readers have with the knowledge the characters have of each other. If you want further elaboration why you're wrong just go back and re read the thread because nothing you have said is new in comparison to the people before you.

I also don't understand why you don't like having lots of confessions for Fujiwara. Please elaborate.

On principle I hate any and all harems, implied or otherwise. Because they are nothing more than cop out story telling devices used to forcibly progress the plot with no real justification. Which we already see happening here in the last we pages of chapter two. An irrelevant side character is being used to force Miu and Fujiwara together, or at this point it's really just forcing Miu to acknowledge her feelings for Fujiwara. But it amounts to the same thing. Also other events like "Oh she's so popular I might lose her to someone else" angst. There are example of bad story telling.

Not to mention the whole "everybody is gay point. It is silly and unrealistic to assume so many gay people would be in one place at one time.

There's a stereotype that girls' schools tend to have meaningless relationships between one another as an experimental kind of thing

This is a cliché, not a stereotype. Very big difference. But, that's besides the point you're trying to make. And as it's already been noted that it's stupid to think she could pick of on Miu's vague singles of being upset around those other girls but not be be able to tell if the people confessing to her are serious.

She'd have to be thinking like this. "Oh this girl came up to me all teary eyed, confessed. I rejected her and she left crying... Eeeeh? She must have been just joshing with me; back to volleyball practice".

If that can't be taken seriously no confession can.

Honestly, it seems to me like you're purposely trying to rile everyone up.

Again, you have no reason to think other than you want to dismiss my points with no solid evidence. Just because I don't blindly gush over everything and anything that's tagged as "yuri" does not mean I'm trying to antagonize people.

So I don't think the things that you're citing are actually contradictions.

Key word here being "think". What you personally think is not really relevant to anything. And even if that was the only contradiction, you'd be wrong. Because there are other contradictions that have been pointed out in this very thread.

do you know ANYTHING about autism?

I can't exactly respond to any of these points because you did not pick up on the fact the term "autism" was being used euphemistically, not literally. Everyone else noticed that though. Kind of another reason why anything you think or say does not hold any validity.

First: It is clear that Miu does consider herself to be Fujiwara's friend

Well duh. That's obviously the intent, but that does not mean the story wrote it correctly.

Second: Miu never once said or implied, or apparently even thought, that she would tell anyone that Fujiwara broke the vase.

Yes, but Fujiwara does not know that. Thus the contradiction.

They are not bad people.

Did anyone say otherwise? I'm not sure you followed the conversation all that well.

My english was fine

Not even by the wildest stretch of the imagination.

Secondly whats the point bringing up the english in a post on the internet?

I directly said why, because I could not understand the point you were making. It also means you miss the subtler points of what you're reading because you don't understand the language. Which you have kind of done is spades. You also come across as overly aggressive. Heaven forbid people point out the objective flaws in a series you like. Not everyone indiscriminately thinks that anything yuri is written well.

So i mistakenly said backetball club- did that change the point I was making?

Not in and of itself, but it shows you both don't pay attention to write and read. Even more so because you went back and edited what you said. So you had a chance to fix it.

As for your point of hating the lots of confessions thing
and it was to force the plot along

Um... You even wrote it. Forcing plot progression is a problem. This is why I say you missed points made due to your lack of English skills.

A character who is meant to be super popular WOULD get lots of confessions and letters.

Yes, and this is an example of bad story telling. As the same effect in terms of relationship development could be achieved without it if better writing was used.

The point about the confessions not being serious- and saying they were not laughing at her- are you serious?? We have seen in LOADS of yuri manga where girls confess without being realy serious. Ofcourse we dont mean joking! They are serious in terms of wanting to express their 'like' / admiration / crush - but not at ALL in terms of wanting a girlfriend - if she said yes lets go out - i can guarantee 90% of them would run a mile. We see this issue of fan girls not being serious in terms of wanting a real girlfriend in tons of yuri manga.

This whole "paragraph" rapes the English language. But that's beside the point. You are basing everything you say on assumptions, not what the story is actually telling us.

We see this issue of fan girls not being serious in terms of wanting a real girlfriend in tons of yuri manga.

Yeah? Name some? Because more often than not we see them being entirely serious and presented as real love interests. As is done on the last pages of chapter two. The only time it's not portrayed as serious is when it's a nameless upperclassman who graduates and ends the relationship, thus being forced Aaaansgt fuel for the characters in the story, and ultimately leading them to get together.

The senpai states 'some' girls seemed to be serious- (though she wasnt sure if they were) and she didnt know how to deal with them - making it clear she knew most were NOT serious confessions of love.

See, here's where you being an ESL master becomes a problem. She never said that; She did say "sometimes girls who seem completely serious will come up and ask me to go out with them.". Here the "some" is the qualifier of the time the events happen, not the mental status of the girls. "Sometimes" is describing the times when girls come up to her to confess. And that equates the grand total sum, not a partial event. If she had said "some girls who come up to me and ask to go out seem completely serious." you would be right, but it's not.

Kind of missed Morinaga-sans "girlfriends style" works

Oh please god, don't compare the two. Save for the art the these two are nothing alike. Girlfriends is practically a work of art while this is a doddle at best.

Actually, to quote myself.

Because contrary to popular belief all girls schools and not filled to the brim with raging lesbians.

I honestly thought Morinaga was above writing stories with this awful cliché, but to see it used by her, and so poorly at that is kind of disappointing. More lesbians does not make a story better. Intelligent writing does.