You have no arguments. What's depicted in the story has everything to do with it, and your unwillingness to admit you got caught propping up heteronormative bullshit under the shield of "gender roles don't exist anymore guys" is why you find yourself isolated in this discussion. You exposed yourself, and instead of owning up to that you attempted nothing less than an out-of-hand dismissal of the very idea that it might somehow inform how two humans are conducting a romantic relationship.

There's still time to reverse course from this insanely absurd path you've embarrassed yourself by taking.

That ain't gonna happen but I think it's time to end this before the mods step in.

last edited at Oct 5, 2019 10:55AM

One of the primary aspects of heteronormativity is the adherence to gender roles and the traditional gender roles within a heterosexual relationship are the man as dominant provider/protector and the woman as a submissive dependant. There are massive religions devoted to propping up this model. Kase's behaviour and how Yamada is portrayed is reflective of this model imposed onto a WLW relationship. Learn about concepts before you lazily dismiss someone elses completely accurate representation of them.

"If you don't dress more conservatively you'll be harassed by men" is like the go to justification men use to shame women into wearing what they want them to. It ain't a good look regardless of motive and certainly if that motive is just your own comfort.

I suppose if you really want to go the whole 10 yards you can see it that way.
Antiquated gender roles have nothing to do with modern heterosexuality and pretending that such relationships these days have anything to do with control and the like is simply idiotic, which is why the term heteronormativity is terribly insufficient in the first place. The usual intention of using heteronormativity is to address that society views hetero relationships and all that it involves as the standard. The way you use it here is just another ideological buzzword. Just say gender roles if you wanna harp on gender roles.

Sure, if this was a serious demand Kase made or if it was actually enforced in any way, it would be a pretty bad look. But as we know, Yamada does what she wants and Kase will be annoyed and try to be protective, but not actually stop her. This was an embarrassed response to feeling aroused, not a rule she set up and Yamada didn't just cave in either.

So you're either clueless or being wilfully obtuse because the idea that traditional gender roles are no longer an issue in modern relationships is just wildly absurd. Like this is just a pointless discussion because you're either so incredibly uninformed I have to explain rudimentary gender politics to you or you're being incredibly disingenuous.

I think I'm finally starting to realize that Kase's whole "could you please not wear that" schpeal is more for her sake than any jealousy over the boys seeing her.

Someone gets it.

Someone gets that it's even worse than it appears? Making insincere appeals to scary boys as bogeymen to frighten Yamada into doing what she, Kase, wants for her own comfort would be blatant and cynical emotional blackmail in exactly the same way women are forced into rigidly "modest" clothing the world over for the "comfort" of their self-appointed watchdogs. Even I don't think Kase is terrible or selfish enough to be doing that, at least not intentionally.

I don't hate Kase or this manga, but she has a problem that continues to manifest, and pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

Sorry, you are the weirdo who just equated a need to control to heteronormativity, I'm not sure I can take you seriously lol

It's not to frighten Yamada at all, it was a simple justification, an excuse. To jump to blackmail or whatever else is insanely dishonest, considering the worst consequence possible in this scenario is that some sleezy guys will leer at her because she is too pretty/sexy.

The most disinegnious thing would be to equate an embarrassed excuse to the issue that was actually set up chapters ago. This was supposed to be a fun and cute little chapter. The possessive stuff and communication issues were not the focus this time around.

One of the primary aspects of heteronormativity is the adherence to gender roles and the traditional gender roles within a heterosexual relationship are the man as dominant provider/protector and the woman as a submissive dependant. There are massive religions devoted to propping up this model. Kase's behaviour and how Yamada is portrayed is reflective of this model imposed onto a WLW relationship. Learn about concepts before you lazily dismiss someone elses completely accurate representation of them.

"If you don't dress more conservatively you'll be harassed by men" is like the go to justification men use to shame women into wearing what they want them to. It ain't a good look regardless of motive and certainly if that motive is just your own comfort.

“Uncritical”—the word does not mean what you think it does.

Critique of the moral or ethical worldview expressed in a work is still a valid avenue of critical thought whether you appreciate it or not.

"Expressed in" is not the same as "imposed on," which what I know you do.

Bye.

You are a very strange person.

Bazu's grudge against humanity is actually kinda appropriate considering how vengeful crows are.

...they are? :|

They recognize people and recognize patterns in treatment by them to the point where they can form violent grudges where they harass known enemies and even teach their children and other crows to harass them. They also recognize friendly treatment and people have even experienced instances of crows they've been friendly to giving them gifts.

That's not being "vengeful", that's learning from experience and having a good memory. Most halfway smart animals can do something similar which is why assorted scarecrow-type devices work very poorly on many birds (gulls being a prominent urban example). Also culture of sorts in the form of passing on knowledge to offspring.

Their smaller cousins the jackdaws do something similar; they exchange tips on foraging prospects when they gather in their characteristic noisy nighttime roosts.

It's literally dictionary definition vengeance. They attack people that have harmed them in the past, that's what vengeance is. Yeah, anthropomorphizing animals isn't scientifically accurate but I'm not being scientific here I'm drawing a parallel to real world behaviour.

Once again, you assume this behavior (or rather, your particular re-interpretation/rephrasing of it) has an innate value separate from any particular manifestation or depiction of it, so of course you can’t come to any other conclusion than you do.

It’s not how I read texts, because I don’t see it as a very useful or enlightening way to do it. So it seems our mileage certainly does vary.

I'm not sure how reading texts through an uncritical lens is particularly enlightening. Then again I'm not sure how much enlightenment you excepted to get from cheesy teen romance regardless of how you read the text.

“Uncritical”—the word does not mean what you think it does.

Critique of the moral or ethical worldview expressed in a work is still a valid avenue of critical thought whether you appreciate it or not.

Once again, you assume this behavior (or rather, your particular re-interpretation/rephrasing of it) has an innate value separate from any particular manifestation or depiction of it, so of course you can’t come to any other conclusion than you do.

It’s not how I read texts, because I don’t see it as a very useful or enlightening way to do it. So it seems our mileage certainly does vary.

I'm not sure how reading texts through an uncritical lens is particularly enlightening. Then again I'm not sure how much enlightenment you excepted to get from cheesy teen romance regardless of how you read the text.

You act like Kase is always on Yamada's back tolding her what she can do when Kase's comment on the yukata is more likely for Kase herself having trouble to keep her hormones in check when Yamada is wearing something "sexy".

Literally the strongest critique I made of Kase's behaviour was to describe it as "awkward and off putting" stop trying to pretend I decried her as some evil manipulator.

you don't deny it thought

Having emotions isn't a shortcoming.

It's MORE creepy if it's portrayed as sweet and good, not less. That's kinda all that's creepy about it! If this story was about questioning or deconstructing all this stuff, it'd be way less of a problem.

It always throws me when people are like "well the author portrayed this creepy thing as good so why are you still creeped out by it?" Because it's a creepy thing. Draping it in shoujo flowers doesn't make it less creepy it just adds dissonance that makes it even creepier because now I feel like I'm in the dang Twilight Zone.

It's a sweet chapter.

All you people arguing about stupid stuff are weird.

Fr it could have also been added for comedy purposes

Of course it was supposed to be funny. If you see it as being about Kase’s over-the-top adoration of Yamada’s sexiness, that’s exactly what it is.

There are a number of readers, however, who react very negatively to (what they see as) Kase’s overprotectiveness and controlling behavior, hence the “what if this were real life?” and “what if Kase were a guy?”-type questions.

As I said, ideally I’d prefer to see more “Yamada grows up” scenes interspersed with the “Kase saves the day” ones.

I’m not about to get pissed off about it, though.

Come on don't pull the ole "everyone else is being overemotional" thing that's just dismissive and uncool.

Bazu's grudge against humanity is actually kinda appropriate considering how vengeful crows are.

...they are? :|

They recognize people and recognize patterns in treatment by them to the point where they can form violent grudges where they harass known enemies and even teach their children and other crows to harass them. They also recognize friendly treatment and people have even experienced instances of crows they've been friendly to giving them gifts.

I’d put it a slightly different way—I’d prefer to see Yamada put in more situations where she was actually expanding her horizons and growing as a person rather than seeing her (and karp is correct here) in more “Super-girlfriend to the rescue” situations.

But I’d say that we haven’t actually seen Kase’s possessiveness hinder Yamada’s growth or deny her the chance to do something worth doing (which does not include that horrible singles bar).

If the series is ever going to show real maturing in their relationship (as opposed to being, in essence, an expanded-format 4koma-esque repetitive comedy series), yes, the possessiveness (as well as Yamada’s cluelessness) would be the issues that need to be addressed. But I don’t think we’ve seen any actual harm or specific instances of stunted personal growth from either of those traits just yet.

See that's the series I had originally hoped this would be: Yamada and Kase maturing together and helping each other grow. But instead they're in this stasis that's frequently pretty awkward and off putting as Yamada continues to basically be a child despite moving out and going to college. Kase's behaviour isn't visibly stunting Yamada's growth because the author is already doing so. In a work where characters were actually allowed to develop Kase's hovering and tendency to yank Yamada out of challenging situations would definitely be counterproductive to her learning to deal with those situations.

Bazu's grudge against humanity is actually kinda appropriate considering how vengeful crows are.

I would be a lot more patient with Kase's possessiveness if it were portrayed at all as an issue in their relationship that they need to work on but instead it's pretty clearly supposed to be viewed as romantic and chivalrous which is just not how I'm going to view trying to control what your partner wears or where she goes. This continuation has a lot less of the charm of the original series and I think it's largely because Kase's protectiveness of Yamada was cute in the contained and familiar context of high school but now it's stifling in the context of Yamada actually becoming a functional adult and expanding her horizons while Kase firmly tries to keep her the same.

last edited at Oct 4, 2019 4:00PM

Oh lord here come all the handholding jokes.

oh gosh

That teacher had to struggle for his whole life because of being aro.

Someone talks with the MCs for 10 minutes, *BAM* their whole life change and everything is solved.

Hime just had to talk 5 minutes with her parents and that crossdressing boy, and lo', depression is averted.

Being a MC makes life easy sometimes.

Well, understanding and supportive authority figures and friends do make a really big difference for a lot of LGBTQ youths and it's pretty clear that this teacher had none whereas the MCs have him, their parents and friends who aren't constantly invalidating them and making them feel ashamed of who they are.

Nah, Dorothea/Petra is pretty intensely gay plus they don't spend a large chunk of their lives apart.

Wow, that was actually really fucking good.

Is really cool to know the content of the volume ahead of time hehehe Thanks for the release! Mondays ain't so bad after all

Yeah, I definitely appreciate this. It's especially good to know that Yuu is gonna continue being hounded by the Mahi-Mahi duo which is extremely important to me.

Ai is just a great girlfriend that was so nice just nipping that crash dieting bullshit in the bud with positive reinforcement.

It's almost kind-of annoying how every girl just seems to let the MC get away with whatever she wants. Even a gag manga needs some reaction.

It's all boke little to no tuskkomi so it ends up being a bunch of setups with no punchlines.

The way this is super popular and causes explosions in the comments reminds me of Citrus. Admit it guys, you like this. You LOVE this. You will come back for more, especially if the characters get more twisted up and wrung out by the author.

Honestly I'm hoping for a good end for Kaoru and Uta, but I have to admit I'm as much in it for the explosion of the Kaoru and Reiichi's relationship as anything. Ideally I'd want to see Reiichi get caught out entirely and given the 3rd degree. I want him to suffer a bit for what he's done.

I am watching this for the car crash and I know I'm not alone. I want Kaoru to find strength and happiness, but I also want to see a glorious mess on the way.

People can continue reading stories they don't like. Hell, I read Her Pet all the way through (and payed for it) and it was fucking garbage and by the end I just wished I could unread it but I was driven to finish it for the sake of getting closure and the faint hope that maybe it would stop sucking (it didn't).

She's basically a female pickup artist I'm not sure what I'm supposed to like or respect about that. It really seems like she just straight up does not perceive others as actual people with thoughts and feelings rather than objects that exist to amuse her until she finds a new shiny thing to be amused by.

Look, is kind of hard for me to explain why I like her, we can see she is not a horrible person thanks to the chapters that she interacts with her sister, but I don't like her because of that too, I like her because her weirdness makes her entertaining. She is like the mix of a casanova with a drama queen and adding her self confidence and weirdness justs makes her a very funny character for me, there's not a chapter that she at least doesn't make me giggle a little (I think probably just the infirmary one wasn't funny to me tbh)

Well, sorry for my possible really bad explanation, you and the other people that don't like her have good reasons for that, I'm just silly. lol

No, that's fair I'm not gonna judge you for liking her even if I don't get it. I'd be a lot less harsh about her if we didn't keep seeing the aftermath of her cavalier treatment of other people's feelings like I got no beef with players as long as they make sure everyone involved knows the rules of the game it's just she doesn't and people keep getting hurt as a result.

last edited at Sep 27, 2019 5:03PM