Strange how people think it's joke when there is nothing indicating this is the case. I guess the scene was supposed to be humourous but Kasumi herself sure was serious. I don't she is the sort of people to joke about theses sort of thing anyway

No indication? She was laughing while she said it..

Smiling is not laughing... And there is no indication she didn't mean it. She never contradicted it any point and is okay with Sakurako talking about their honeymoon.

And again, what is your explanation for Kasumi kissing Sakurako of her own volition?

Well what author says in outside source is irrelevant as per death of the author. At least in case of Liz to Ao Tori we can wholeheartedly discard what she said and interpret it on its own merit. So it isn't like her saying it made any yuri interpretations invalid. Doesn't make her approach to it any less shitty though. I mean "I'm making it look like yuri romance on purpose, but no homo" is not something you say to endear gay people to you.

Hence why I said everyone is entitled to their interpretation. In my case, I take the director's vision very seriously, so this makes it blatantly non-yuri to me. In a franchise that was build on het, I don't really feel a big sense of loss in this regard anyway. Can't hurt me when I never put my hopes up... lol

Again, I want to stress this, it was not about the yuri aspect. She said she generally just likes to portray platonic relationships in a romantic way. It's her style. I haven't seen too many of her works, but she is very good at this subtle romantic stuff. Usually she doesn't have perfect control over the story and meaning however, so the romance might be more real in other works.

My point was that I can't be expected to sing the praises of someone who was a dick to me, just because they do something nice for once. Not that Kyoto Animation is an isolated example.

Certainly. Likewise it would be hasty to only measure someone by their mistakes and ignore their good deeds though. As far as I can see, KyoAni's staff and directors are actually big fans of yuri. They simple are very much caught in a world where it neither sells nor gets widespread appeal, so they do what they can with works like Euphonium that are het, but very strongly yuri-esque.

Kobayashi probably got a pass because it has something for everyone and is mostly family values centered (and just absurd enough to distract from any sexuality related debates).

Though I would argue that she didn't really care about whether it was LGBT or not.

So? She doesn't recognize that pulling a stunt like this with a sapphic pairing has a different weight than with a het pairing, as heterosexuality isn't underrepresented or marginalized in media. This betrays either comfortable ignorance or possibly contempt for the LGBTQ+ community. But the intentions aren't really the point (and they're impossible to prove); a statement like that speaks for itself.

In my book treating het and homosexuality the same way is far better than the alternative of looking down on one in particular. I would get just as upset if this happened in a het romance I really enjoy.

last edited at May 4, 2019 2:52PM

Funny thing, in the anime it felt more like an internal line.

Actually rewatched it to check this, and it's exactly the same in the anime as well. But seeing how it begins as an internal line and ends with just the one word spoken, it's easy to see how one could miss it, as Blastaar just showed with the manga as well.

That's why I said "felt". In the manga it's obviously a speech bubble, but in the anime it just is the same tone of voice, so it blends in better.

Just because they adapted Kobayashi-san, doesn't mean they're suddenly not responsible for the bait and switch that is Hibike. If my friend smacks me across the face, and then offers me ice cream, does that mean I was never slapped in the first place?

If Naoko Yamada really said that and meant that, I'm very disappointed in her. That's basically a big middle finger for the LGBTQ+ audiences. But it's not like it should be a big surprise. Obviously, hijacking the aesthetic of queer romance for moe / sexy points and then discarding it / denying it is what we should have come to expect from mainstream media by now.

Well no, but the statement "they only ever slap me in the face" would be incorrect. They also gave you ice-cream once.

Sadly she did say that. Though I would argue that she didn't really care about whether it was LGBT or not. She generally just prefers to play with romantic cinematography even if it is platonic to her. It's been a long tradition among some directors. The only thing that upsets me specifically is that she is admant about it. Other directors would have the decency to leave it open to interpretation. That is what a good writer/director/artist does. You can only gain from letting people interpret more into it. As opposed to popular opinion, inclusivity never harms the product. Only shoehorning it in does...

^ K. But whatever, I found the vid I was referring to:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xVbd3ujMgQE
Enjoy!

Zeria said it right in the video. The true start of yuri was in the 70s (well I think late 60s is more accurate, but its not wrong). Sure, the foundation for it had to be laid by actual real lesbian progression and movements in the decades before it, but I wouldn't claim those as "Yuri".

Either way it can't be bad to get more educated on the lesbian movements in Japan across a century.

That's... when it started trully getting steam. I took my information from Zeria, who briefly mentioned this mangaka who made a yuri all the way back in 1919. That video in which she mentioned that was also the announcement of a series on the history of yuri, so, being both a yuri fan and a history buff, y'know I had to subscribe her just so I wouldn't miss that series (I forgot what's it called... something along the lines of "Yuri 101", or something? )

Lesbians are a concept that outdates yuri... Just because someone in the early 20th century drew some lesbian art (or wrote some smutty literature about it) does not mean it can be considered Yuri. The Yuri genre very specifically was coined for manga.

last edited at May 4, 2019 1:37PM

Naturally everyone is entitled to interpret things how the want.... but Naoko Yamada specifically said that Liz to Ao Tori is not a romance movie. She stated in an interview that she likes making platonic relationships look romantic. She very directly said that there is no actual romance going on between the girls...

Yeah it's that bad. She doesn't even allow it to be up to interpretation.

That aside, I want to defend KyoAni just a little and say it isn't completely yuribait. They did adapt Kobayashi-san, which is overtly yuri both in the manga and their anime adaptation. Can't wait for season 2.

They won't live the Euphonium disaster any time soon though.

^The one in chapter 18 is said out loud as well - and is the only part of her full thoughts there actually said so, making it seem for Touko as if she's only (and possibly jokingly) complaining about the food, not the balance of their relationship.

Funny thing, in the anime it felt more like an internal line.

The Yuri genre in the modern sense was started around the late 60s... Thats not 100 years in any sense of the numerical system.

Hino-san no ninny

You don't have to "fix" anything, as most successful group shots at family functions demonstrate--even if the reality is that Uncle Joe borrowed money and never paid it back to Sally and Marge, who are pissed, and that cheery-looking teenager in the front makes pocket money selling bootleg Adderall to the beaming cousins on the other side, who are totally stressed about college-admissions testing, and Grandpa looks so relaxed because he just peed in his adult diapers, it comes out as a "great shot of everybody."

You fixed the subjects to look like a happy family, which they are not. It's really no different from using powder and a knife to make a disgusting loaf of bread look like it was made well from first class ingredients.

I think this has run its course now lol

The supposed force of this analogy escapes me. The relationship between the appearance of food and its taste is not at all parallel to that of a visual representation and the essential nature of the thing being represented.

Especially with food--having done some commercial food photography, I can say for a fact that the goal is to make the food look like it would taste great--even if that bowl of soup is stone cold and has rocks in the bottom to make it look like it's chockfull of delicious ingredients.

As art objects, the visual impression and emotional effect of Chou-chan's photos on the viewer is not at all dependent on the actual relationship between the two subjects.

When you sell food, you want it to look appealing. It doesn't matter what it actually tastes like, because you just trick people into buying your food.
When you sell photos you want them to look appealing. It doesn't matter if they don't reflect reality or are in fact the opposite of what they display, because all you want is that one illusive fake moment to win your contest/sell your piece.

In both cases authenticity, something people put value in, is disregarded for the sake of gain.

If you shoot a photo of two people who hate each other, but fix it so that they seem deeply in love, that might be prasied for the effort itself, but still leaves a bad aftertaste when you look at it, much like a badly made loaf of bread...

PS: I thought the idea was that we are making fun of MC here. How did this become serious? lol

last edited at May 4, 2019 11:57AM

Oh and... MC is kind of unstable herself. That was a really fast rejection of what seems to be her biggest purpose in life (aka photography).

As a photographer myself, I can say that in most non-technical contexts the difference between what a pictures shows and the "reality" of the subject is called "photography"--it's the fundamental premise of the medium, not the occasion for an existential crisis.

I am flabbergasted by this revelation. I am sure a baker would quit their job on the spot if they found out that a factory made loaf of bread tastes different from what it looks like.

^The main character in Fate/Grand Order does not have a canon name. You pick it yourself for maximum self-insert power. The movies at least gave the male version the name Ritsuka Fujimaru. Gudao(male) and Gudako(female) are nicknames given to them based on the comedic F/GO promotional show "Fate/GudaGuda".

I also could not see the "discussion" as such with unprovoked insults thrown at me when there was a disagreement.

At this point it feels like a running gag on this site to accuse me of insulting everyone, but honestly. Seriously. This one time I absolutely stayed 100% objective and on topic. I made no personal accusations or anything. And neither Blastaar or Iuinthoron said anything insulting either. Let's not poison the well and just accept the difference in opinion.

last edited at May 4, 2019 9:41AM

Surpreme Kabedon however, great cuteasing.

She pushed her entire palm against the wall, right? There's no way she didn't hurt her whirst when doing that with such force.

I'm honestly just surprised there wasn't an indent left by the force of that push.

If the conversation is going to continue (as it has every right to do), could one or both of you give a one-or-two sentence clarification of what the basic issue in dispute is, and what the consequences of it are for our understanding of the work as a whole?

Because I’m not seeing such a huge difference in the positions to account for the length and vigor of the dispute (probably because I’m not reading carefully enough, and therefore could use some help).

Ahem... as the conversation officially doesn't exist anymore apparently... now it may be pointless, but here is how I saw this ex-discussion.

My point was that Touko made the choice to become Mio on her own and while her surroundings influenced her views, the blame for the outcome lies with her. She was inflicitng self-harm by the way she acts out of grief and a need to overcome her weak self.
It's all pro responsibility and choice for me.

Lotta loose cannons rolling around the deck in this one.

I know that in Japan senpai have a responsibility to keep the kouhai in line, but in a Western context sensei would be pretty unprofessional bitching about one student to another like that.

I think we all had a teacher like that once haha

I don't have an issue with the translation. It just literally isn't supporting your claim.

Well you do. What I posted is the translation, but you just argued that it isn't. In fact you called it a fan translation.

And none of those lines are what you claimed. They are all variations of what the fan translations said aka not an appeal to become her sister. Bold or not, the actual context is not that. It's just what Touko misinterpreted. For and Be are not the same thing.

We can go back to the meaning of it, but right here you're twisting the issue you take with the translation I posted to counter my argument. You even try some argument about the differences between For and Be yet two quoted lines tell Touko to take her sister's place without using either of those words. This is what I'm working with with you. You're making up things on the spot.

....seriously?
Okay, let's get this clarified then. No, I did not say what you posted is a fan translation. The sentence "They are all variations of what the fan translations said aka not an appeal to become her sister." only means that the meaning of the sentences is exactly the same as the fan translation. There is no difference, so posting the official translation didn't help your original point.

I didn't think it would be this basic but... "Live as your sister" does not mean "become your sister". If you based your entire argument around that, then sorry, that was a bad call.

Koguma's adorable breasts are going to be her best method of attack against Hino. Uou will see soon enough heh heh heh heh.

Do you mean she will literally hit her with that flat board? Because I don't see any other offensive use from a flat surface.

No, because you're twisting a lot of what I'm saying to meet your own ends.

All I can do is take the words you write at face value. When you directly contradict something I see as right or wrong, I will give a counter-point. If that's not what you meant, you clarify etc etc.

The topic has kinda been entirely based around a mere difference in interpretation of a single scene. Everything else just dominoes from there.

I copied this quotes from the physical, official English translation and provided the citation for it. If you have a problem with this translation, take it up with Kadokawa and Seven Seas, not me.

I don't have an issue with the translation. It just literally isn't supporting your claim.

last edited at May 4, 2019 7:41AM

Welp.
Guess I'll throw my reply in the trash then where it belongs. Sorry for walling this place again.

last edited at May 4, 2019 7:28AM

If I know anything about space station sized symbolism it's that if a girl stares at a torn photograph of a couple, toxic feelings are afoot. Out of all the photos thats the only torn one, so I don't think she was just trying to destroy MC's work either.

The chapter did thoroughly manage to portray Nene as bitchy and her reasoning for breaking up was flimsy, but that seems like a red herring. I kinda got a feeling that Nene is not being entirely truthful about why she broke up with Amane. Maybe Hayama has more involvement than I thought... or not. Nene seemed genuinly surprised that Hayama knew about them.

On the flipside I can understand why Nene was so rejecting this entire time. Amane is totally not over the break-up. She doesn't even seem to understand it. The "we are still friends" excuse really is incredibly transparent with this new info. Props to her for showing that she cares deeply enough not to risk it for a kiss. Poor thing.

Oh and... MC is kind of unstable herself. That was a really fast rejection of what seems to be her biggest purpose in life (aka photography). There are more models in this world than those exes...

I have a feeling this game might have been rigged. And I got a hunch that Hino might have just wanted to fondle Koguma, but we can't really be sure unless Koguma lets Hino fondle her breasts.

Surpreme Kabedon however, great cuteasing.

last edited at May 4, 2019 6:18AM

^I doubt it... Anyone would react that way about Emoji's bad performance in the game.