This seems to be relevant to our interests here, and touches on something I've seen discussed pretty often, the dominance of yaoi over yuri. This article looks at fanfiction pretty much exclusively, but I can't imagine the same doesn't apply to the doujinshi scene as well.

That's a good article. It makes a lot of sense. I think it really does apply to all media that hold possibilities of romance.

I stopped writing/reading fanfiction due to the lack. I was spending more time searching for it than actually reading it, and there was a huge lack of response when writing it. Original work is just as lacking as fanfiction. It's tough to find quality novels that feature lesbians that aren't solely shitty smut. I'm focused on originals now.

I first started using this site as a teenager on a shared computer. I started out with mostly the sweet SFW romances. I started fearing people finding out I was using this site altogether, afraid the more risque stories would be lumped together and give off the general impression that I was spending time every week on a manga equivalent of brazzers. That's with my family already knowing I was a lesbian. That's what lesbians in the media seemed to a lot of people around me at the time - it stemmed from discomfort with broadcasting sexuality.

Once when I was trying to discuss how difficult it was to find novels with female characters who love each other the response I got was "Why does it have to be two girls? Aren't other romances fine? Lesbians could read gay or het guy romance too. Unless you're just looking for erotica?" I personally like the idea of identifying with a main character sexually if there is going to be some romance to a story. It makes perfect sense that stories can be more immersive if there are common aspects that a reader can identify with. It seems there's a competition between what is normal and what are personal preferences. I understand why some heterosexuals would not be as into a pairing that is lesbian, especially if they had hopes with other characters. In that sense, that's why we have the idea of heterosexuality as a normalcy. Even as homosexuality is more accepted I think there's still going to be an issue with the amount of lesbian stories we receive due to the population difference. There's a possibility that as people continue to become more open it will increase, because I mean, we can all agree on things like MulderxScully right? So why not Korrasami as well? It'll probably be a while though.

esn

Once when I was trying to discuss how difficult it was to find novels with female characters who love each other the response I got was "Why does it have to be two girls? Aren't other romances fine? Lesbians could read gay or het guy romance too. Unless you're just looking for erotica?"

Is it just me or does that quote seem to imply that het or gay romance isn't necessarily erotica while anything involving lesbians would definitely be?

esn

Once when I was trying to discuss how difficult it was to find novels with female characters who love each other the response I got was "Why does it have to be two girls? Aren't other romances fine? Lesbians could read gay or het guy romance too. Unless you're just looking for erotica?"

Is it just me or does that quote seem to imply that het or gay romance isn't necessarily erotica while anything involving lesbians would definitely be?

Gay and lesbian seem to be assumed as erotica, while het doesn't have to be. That's what I got out of what they were saying. It was a stupid conversation.

esn

Once when I was trying to discuss how difficult it was to find novels with female characters who love each other the response I got was "Why does it have to be two girls? Aren't other romances fine? Lesbians could read gay or het guy romance too. Unless you're just looking for erotica?"

Is it just me or does that quote seem to imply that het or gay romance isn't necessarily erotica while anything involving lesbians would definitely be?

That does seem to be what the quote is implying, yes. Basically a lot of people assume if you're looking for F/F, then you're looking for it as porn.

I remember a while back that one reason a lot of girls are into yaoi is that it's men in a non-threatening (at least towards women), romantic role that you generally don't see much of in general fiction. So it affords a sort of fantasy that girls don't often get to experience in mainstream fiction, at least until pretty recently.

Wow o.o It is a really good analyze. I already noticed a lot of stuff mentioned here and man, I sure agree with that wholeheartedly... how bad it is...

esn

"Why does it have to be two girls? Aren't other romances fine? Lesbians could read gay or het guy romance too. Unless you're just looking for erotica?"

Reading het or gay for a change wouldn't be a issue if there was enough lesbian romances to need that change. Not when you can't find it at all (point is, I agree that is stupid statement).

Seriously, just make me more motivated to flood net with as much yuri related stuff as possible. And good vaginal talk! (cos that is what yuri needs. More talking vaginas!)

last edited at Nov 9, 2015 10:58AM

esn

"Why does it have to be two girls? Aren't other romances fine? Lesbians could read gay or het guy romance too. Unless you're just looking for erotica?"

Reading het or gay for a change wouldn't be a issue if there was enough lesbian romances to need that change. Not when you can't find it at all (point is, I agree that is stupid statement).

Seriously, just make me more motivated to flood net with as much yuri related stuff as possible. And good vaginal talk! (cos that is what yuri needs. More talking vaginas!)

I recently went looking for Saki fics, and it's kind of shocking how few fics there are for a series that's blatantly about superpowered mahjong lesbians who don't know what panties are. And yet, next to nothing in terms of romance. It's not even like those results are unusual, but it's messed up that low-hanging fruit like that doesn't even get fics.

ShizNat (Mai Hime) gets off a bit better, both in terms of porn and romance. But it seems to be a rarity.

Reading this article makes me kinda sad for the state of femslash in the internet right now. Maybe this'll finally motivate me to write more fanfiction!

esn

Gay and lesbian seem to be assumed as erotica, while het doesn't have to be. That's what I got out of what they were saying. It was a stupid conversation.

That's just an extremely moronic conclusion to even come to in my opinion. It seems to outright imply that if a relationship isn't heterosexual then it's apparently just completely sexually based which is obviously wrong even if you don't stop and take the time to think about it.

Nezchan

That does seem to be what the quote is implying, yes. Basically a lot of people assume if you're looking for F/F, then you're looking for it as porn.

I wonder just how often they'd be completely wrong about people looking into F/F stuff only for porn. In my case it'd be almost entirely wrong. I generally tend to avoid anything that's completely sex-focused because I far prefer the romance and character development side of things to the sex side of things. (Though of course if the sex side of things isn't forced then it's fine. Ie: Hanjuku Joshi averages a sex scene like every 30ish pages or so which is quite a lot but it completely fits in with the theme of the story and doesn't feel forced or anything despite the frequency.)

That's just an extremely moronic conclusion to even come to in my opinion. It seems to outright imply that if a relationship isn't heterosexual then it's apparently just completely sexually based which is obviously wrong even if you don't stop and take the time to think about it.

Well, in most shows every gay character is also considered useless fanservice if their personal story arc doesn't heavily revolve around being gay. That's heteronormativity for you.

isn't the problem with gay super heroes in comic books that the "human drama"-side of it is just about them being gay? Instead of what other heroes have.

Writing so heavy-loaded on their sexuality that the characters end up being defined by it (being gay) and nothing else.

"Hey what can you tell me about [X] hero? He is gay right?"
- He likes men and has to deal with society's judgement.

"Right, what else can you tell me about him?"
- He... he likes the men... and... he... is gay... and... very gay... he kissed that guy a in chapter 1...

"Uh... OK..." walks away
- Did I tell you he woke up in bed with a dude this one time?-.. oh.. he left..

last edited at Nov 9, 2015 2:31PM

I think that's the side we hear because we check the places that actually want LGBT representation to happen, at least that has been my experience. Everytime I read comments on non LGBT-centric websites, there is at least 50% stupid stuff.

Demand for LGBT characters in media will eventually make these characters nothing more than a list of checkbox to include in the content. Inclusion for the sake of inclusion just ends up delivering mediocrity.

Instead of demanding quality where needed, they blindly demand inclusion everywhere.
Sad.

flips

Demand for LGBT characters in media will eventually make these characters nothing more than a list of checkbox to include in the content. Inclusion for the sake of inclusion just ends up delivering mediocrity.

Instead of demanding quality where needed, they blindly demand inclusion everywhere.
Sad.

Isn't it already become like that? Token black, asian, woman and gay character? And I totally agree. Including them just cos they are forcing you to include them is even worse than not including at all, cos they will just be stereotypical characters without any dept and characterization. If authors didn't plan to add characters like that then I prefer them not to, rather than shoehorn them at last minute because "we need them in our work". They will never have any important role in the story if people just keep on adding them as obligation.

last edited at Nov 9, 2015 3:09PM

dunno what Hero Comics you have read, they have become much better in later years, from Watchmens secretly gay characters (to be fair, it was the cold war era) to the second Question Batwoman and Scandal and Constantine for the Bi people, seems pretty nice so far

last edited at Nov 9, 2015 3:30PM

Just a little clarification Nez. The article while having some good points it can't be applied to the doujin scene. The author is clearly focused on the western market/audience and ignores the rest of the world. That is not to say the doujin scene is perfect of course, but it has particular issues and mentality unique to it.

I also have to admit I got really put off by the underlying idea that everything must be catered to specific audiences. In my experience the best works of fictions are those that try to reach beyond its traditional scope while keeping things niche will never motivate a growth of creators and audience.

I'd like more shows like Crownies, Wentworth or Orphan Black, where the gay characters are clearly gay, but are not defined only by their bi/homosexuality.

last edited at Nov 9, 2015 3:45PM

I've read a few articles on the "why more m/m than het and f/f in fanworks" (especially if so many fanfic writers are queer women) question, and basically no one knows for sure. People do fight about it a lot, though.

The same person the article linked to publishes yearly stats about the most popular ships on Archive of our Own (here's the 2015 version). I think FF.net has more fics based on anime and manga, but it's still extremely dude-centric. The author actually wrote a follow-up dedicated to femslash because there was hardly any in the original post. Mostly Western shows, but Attack on Titan, Sailor Moon and Madoka Magica are included in the top 50.

I'd like more shows like Crownies, Wentworth or Orphan Black, where the gay characters are clearly gay, but are not defined only by their bi/homosexuality.

Yeah, that would be great. I want to care about LGBT characters, but if their orientation and the person they're dating are the only things their storylines revolve around, it's just not going to work for me.
The "gay character is only defined by their sexuality" thing pops up a lot in manga, too. The yuri crush is basically a character trait, and you just know the poor girl will never get to confess her feelings, much less find a girlfriend. It does sort of get old the twentieth time you come across it.

I'd hazard to say that, at least in the west, M/M fanfiction has a longer and deeper history than femslash to start with. Given that even the word "slash" was coined to describe Kirk/Spock fics in the late 60s and early 70s, and continuing on through a lot of media, most of which had and often continue to have very few prominent female roles. Often there were only one recurring character, such as in shows like Voltron or Gatchaman, both of which were imitated a lot in anime.

most of which had and often continue to have very few prominent female roles.

Actually meant to write that before but somehow forgot to add it. Definitely agree, a lot of media is very male centric and if there is a woman, she pretty often falls into the roles of Damsel in Distress or Love Interest or both. Found this regarding the top 100 grossing Hollywood films from 2014 for example:

Women represented a total of 30% of all speaking characters, 29% of major characters, 12% of protagonists, and 13% of leaders onscreen.
[...]
Female characters were more likely than males to be identified only by a personal life-related role such as a wife or mother (58% of females vs. 31% of males).
[...]
No female actors over 45 years of age performed a lead or co-lead role. Only three of the female actors in lead or co lead roles were from underrepresented racial/ethnic backgrounds. No female leads or co leads were Lesbian or Bisexual characters.

According to this Fanlore article (which seems nicely detailed, until you click on the link to the "slash" article), Xena was the turning point for femslash. The article includes a few reasons/theories that explain the gap between m/m and f/f fandoms.

But the lack of important and well-written female characters is probably the main thing that needs to be fixed. It's getting better on TV. Movies... I'm not so sure. The stats from that quote aren't very encouraging.

most of which had and often continue to have very few prominent female roles.

Actually meant to write that before but somehow forgot to add it. Definitely agree, a lot of media is very male centric and if there is a woman, she pretty often falls into the roles of Damsel in Distress or Love Interest or both. Found this regarding the top 100 grossing Hollywood films from 2014 for example:

Women represented a total of 30% of all speaking characters, 29% of major characters, 12% of protagonists, and 13% of leaders onscreen.
[...]
Female characters were more likely than males to be identified only by a personal life-related role such as a wife or mother (58% of females vs. 31% of males).
[...]
No female actors over 45 years of age performed a lead or co-lead role. Only three of the female actors in lead or co lead roles were from underrepresented racial/ethnic backgrounds. No female leads or co leads were Lesbian or Bisexual characters.

I see those stats and I can't help but be reminded of research that suggests when there are only 17% women in a group, men in that group believe it's 50-50, and when it's 30% women, the men in the group perceive it as more women than men. Which is something that comes out in practice as a very uneven balance in movies and TV, as well as hiring biases.

But we're more concerned here with the entertainment angle and how we end up with very few notable female characters to pair with each other, and sometimes end up having to pair the only two by default, or else make up an OC.

^Yeah, the percentage of female writers even went down from 2013. It does seem to get better, at least in TV shows though, you're right about that.

And to add to LGBT characters without being gay as only defining trait, I actually do like LGBT specific stuff as plot, there just has to be more to the chartacter. I think one of the best shows to do that was Sense8 with Hernando and Lito. Their sexuality was a very big part of their story but they still stood on their own as awesome characters.

Edit: It's kinda weird that I pick the gay guys as example in this topic, so I just want to add Nomi and Amanita too.

last edited at Nov 9, 2015 7:54PM

^Yeah, the percentage of female writers even went down from 2013. It does seem to get better, at least in TV shows though, you're right about that.

And to add to LGBT characters without being gay as only defining trait, I actually do like LGBT specific stuff as plot, there just has to be more to the chartacter. I think one of the best shows to do that was Sense8 with Hernando and Lito. Their sexuality was a very big part of their story but they still stood on their own as awesome characters.

Edit: It's kinda weird that I pick the gay guys as example in this topic, so I just want to add Nomi and Amanita too.

Given Lana Wachowski was involved, I'd be a bit surprised if it didn't handle LGBT issues better than most.

This article looks at fanfiction pretty much exclusively, but I can't imagine the same doesn't apply to the doujinshi scene as well.

I was curious about this, the pattern seems even more obvious on this site. http://2.novelist.jp/tag_list.php. That is 3.1k BL stories to about 100 Yuri ones. Pixiv, on the other hand, has 123k Yuri tags as opposed to 40k BL tags in illustrations, and 31k and 25k respectively in Light Novels.

http://dic.pixiv.net/a/%E7%99%BE%E5%90%88
http://dic.pixiv.net/a/BL

BL actually seems more of a niche genre than Yuri there.

last edited at Nov 9, 2015 8:33PM