Unless we suddenly learn that Canno is only the artist and that Saburouta writes the story, we should be fine. :þ Plus the promo pics and title seem to indicate that this will be a comedy so that should make the whole triangle thing more bearable.

Still, replacing YagaKimi as Dengeki Daioh's yuri title is a tough task.

last edited at Dec 28, 2019 4:18PM

@arch99
The poly trio in AnoKiss was not downright terrible, but... well it felt very rushed. Not very believable. It is rather easy for most people who love Yuri to intrinsically accept that every girl in a story is gay, no matter how unrealistic it is. But polyamory is not a very common or natural thing for our society, so people have innate barriers against it. Humans have developed into very monogamous creatures. So even more than just "But they are both girls" would come out of the average straight person's mouth, such a fluid relationship would make people even more uneasy.

The main issue lies with the way triangles are written. Characters in those situations are typically very one-sidedly in love with the one in the middle and it's pretty natural not to want to share. And if just sharing the desired was enough to count for polyamory, then harems are the most common version and nobody likes harems don't lie to me. So the most polyamor-ish approach would be that all three partners like each other, but that tends to feel extremely hamfisted in after several volumes of unabashed competition.

I guess my point is... If you want to write believable polyamory you can't write it like a love triangle. Which is why this does not seem to go that direction. But that could change.

@BugDevil
I find it unrealistic to say that polyamory is "unnatural." It's socially ostracized and uncommon certainly, but it's not unnatural, just like gay or trans people aren't unnatural. I think it was a little rushed, but like, I've literally lived large chunks of what happened in it, so it was incredibly believable for me. Dating a polyamorous person while just quietly and internally hoping they won't date anyone else because you're unhappy with it is literally an experience I've been in (from both sides in fact). Having a polyamorous person already in a relationships interested in you, initially rebuffing them, then figuring out your own feelings on the matter and coming back to them? That's how my first relationship ever started. And following that up by comforting the preexisting partner of the person you're dating, getting to know them better, handling their fears, and having them end up emotionally intimate and interested in you, while still having complicated and difficult emotions on polyamory, was also how that relationship ended up. Essentially, this was realistic as hell imo, because I lived almost all of the issues polyamorous people deal with in it, all in the same 3-person relationship that was my first relationship ever (which ended up being toxic, emotionally abusive, and shitty as hell, but hey, that's not a polyamory problem that a person-that-I-dated problem).

So yeah tl;dr the arc with the 3 of them first getting together is almost literally exactly what happened with my first relationship, with myself in the position of Hiruma, and I've lated dealt with selective parts of what happened from the perspective of Asakura, so I think it's quite realistic.

The rushedness is like, literally the biggest downside of anything in AnoKiss, and it's a problem that more than half of the relationships face, nonetheless, I still felt that what needed to happen happened. I also think saying AnoKiss's polyamory was written like a love triangle is... a bit unfair, because while it started in the first chapter like that, the whole point was that Nina started developing feelings for Hiruma too, while being incredibly conflicted about it (also been there, feeling uncomfortable with my partner's polyamory while myself starting to be attracted to another person, before having to sort out my feelings on polyamory and trust in my partner more). Essentially, I liked it because I thought it was an excellent representation of polyamory, that rung quite true for me, and made me feel seen, like trans yuri does, getting to see the people like me actually appear in the medium I like so much.

I guess my point is... If you want to write believable polyamory you can't write it like a love triangle. Which is why this does not seem to go that direction. But that could change.

I think that's a really good point. As you suggest, harems tend to be "one idiot who can't/won't choose" or "several idiots who won't give up." To me, the (very unsatisfactory) resolution where one leg of the triangle just resolves to share the beloved indicates the central plot problem--the poly resolution of a love triangle tends to rob one or more of the actors of individual agency. Somehow it's got to work out that three separate individuals freely choose two others, and the poor track record of that in real life doesn't supply many models for fictional depictions.

That said, I thought the poly in AnoKiss was as well done and plausible as anything else--the indispensable (for a trio) character of Amane was, in herself, not very believable, but given the givens we were given, I thought it was effectively done.

EDIT: "Believable" isn't quite what I want to say about my qualms about the characterization of Amane; more like "Too ___ to be true," with me not quite able to fill in the blank precisely at the moment.

last edited at Dec 28, 2019 4:47PM

I guess my point is... If you want to write believable polyamory you can't write it like a love triangle. Which is why this does not seem to go that direction. But that could change.

I think that's a really good point. As you suggest, harems tend to be "one idiot who can't/won't choose" or "several idiots who won't give up." To me, the (very unsatisfactory) resolution where one leg of the triangle just resolves to share the beloved indicates the central plot problem--the poly resolution of a love triangle tends to rob one or more of the actors of individual agency. Somehow it's got to work out that three separate individuals freely choose two others, and the poor track record of that in real life doesn't supply many models for fictional depictions.

But I don't think that happened in AnoKiss. In AnoKiss, it was never really a triangle. From the start, Asakura had picked both of them. It was just about them coming to terms with that, with Nina also being sucker-punched with feelings for Hiruma, there were 3 separate points where each one of them in turn freely chose the other 2. First was Asakura choosing Nina, then choosing Hiruma. Then was Hiruma initially rejecting Asakura because of Nina, then figuring out how she felt more, understanding herself better, and choosing Asakura. Then Nina strongly rejecting Hiruma's choice of Asakura, before getting her own feelings for Hiruma. Then Hiruma chooses Nina, over and over, until Nina finally figures out her own feelings and gets acceptance. What I'm saying is basically everyone keeps having to repeatedly make the choice over and over, but there's certainly no lack of each choosing the others. It just takes a bit for Nina.

Edit:

That said, I thought the poly in AnoKiss was as well done and plausible as anything else--the indispensable (for a trio) character of Amane was, in herself, not very believable, but given the givens we were given, I thought it was effectively done.

Oh I thought Amane was perfectly believable, at least in her feelings for polyamory. Every form of real life polyamory I've seen involves someone who's newer to it and someone who's more comfortable in their identity. Amane's infinitely-abundant niceness and denseness on Nina's feelings were less believable than her polyamorous inclinations to me.

last edited at Dec 28, 2019 4:46PM

I guess my point is... If you want to write believable polyamory you can't write it like a love triangle. Which is why this does not seem to go that direction. But that could change.

I think that's a really good point. As you suggest, harems tend to be "one idiot who can't/won't choose" or "several idiots who won't give up." To me, the (very unsatisfactory) resolution where one leg of the triangle just resolves to share the beloved indicates the central plot problem--the poly resolution of a love triangle tends to rob one or more of the actors of individual agency. Somehow it's got to work out that three separate individuals freely choose two others, and the poor track record of that in real life doesn't supply many models for fictional depictions.

But I don't think that happened in AnoKiss.

I was really addressing the general writing problem, not this series in particular. As I said, the poly here was pretty well done.

Edit:

That said, I thought the poly in AnoKiss was as well done and plausible as anything else--the indispensable (for a trio) character of Amane was, in herself, not very believable, but given the givens we were given, I thought it was effectively done.

Oh I thought Amane was perfectly believable, at least in her feelings for polyamory. Every form of real life polyamory I've seen involves someone who's newer to it and someone who's more comfortable in their identity. Amane's infinitely-abundant niceness and denseness on Nina's feelings were less believable than her polyamorous inclinations to me.

Your EDIT fills in the blank in my EDIT pretty effectively.

@Blastaar
Okay, it seems like in general we're pretty in agreement, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.

@Blastaar
Okay, it seems like in general we're pretty in agreement, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.

No problem--you said what I wanted to, but didn't take the take time to think through. Because I need to go make dinner. :)

I find it unrealistic to say that polyamory is "unnatural." It's socially ostracized and uncommon certainly, but it's not unnatural, just like gay or trans people aren't unnatural.

Oof, I didn't want to start a debate about the very nature of polyamory and if I somehow offended you with that statement - due to your personal experiences - I apologize. I did say it is unnatural for society for a reason. Not necessarily biologically.

So yeah tl;dr the arc with the 3 of them first getting together is almost literally exactly what happened with my first relationship, with myself in the position of Hiruma, and I've lated dealt with selective parts of what happened from the perspective of Asakura, so I think it's quite realistic.

I am not denying that relationships can roughly pan out that way, that's not really a huge jump of the imagination. That's also why I said it wasn't terrible. But you yourself already admitted that some parts were pretty exaggerated and extreme.

The rushedness is like, literally the biggest downside of anything in AnoKiss, and it's a problem that more than half of the relationships face, nonetheless, I still felt that what needed to happen happened.

See, the issue in this particular triangle was that the initial attraction between both sides of the equation was very forced and barely explored. Then the bridging link between the "competitors" just magically appeared and settled. "Oh I guess I love her too". It doesn't very well deal with the issues of polyamory (like the uneven distribution of attention and love). Every other pairing in AnoKiss had the innate advantage that people don't question two people getting together after overcoming some issue.
Polyamory by default is a higher difficulty and higher maintenance situation that you can't gloss over so easily if you want it to be good.

I hope you can somewhat follow my train of thought there, I think a lot about this particular trope and might be a bit too far up my own head.

@BugDevil
I mean, "magically" is kinda weird. They already had pretty heavy emotional intimacy due to their relationship online, so suddenly this connected with the real life people (remember, an outside source had thought, from hearing about their conversations, they'd been flirting online already, so they were quite close for sure). In addition, in my experience, having someone you love, love someone else, actually makes it pretty easy to start liking that person. You start viewing this person through the lens of someone who loves them, start spending more time with them by nature, and suddenly you've got feelings. For Nina especially, her actions seem really erratic and hard to understand, but she's just kinda going through a breakdown and losing it with all her conflicted feelings. On one hand, she loves Asakura and wants her to herself. On the otherhand, she knows Asakura loves Hiruma, and wants Asakura to be happy. On one hand, she hates Hiruma, because she's getting in the way of her and Asakura (to her perception). But on the other hand, Hiruma has been her friend for longer than she's known Asakura, and is super close to her, and has been endlessly kind to her, even in the face of her hatred, and has helped her work through her feelings, and so on, and she's starting to feel attracted to her. But on yet another hand, she doesn't think you can be attracted to multiple people and still have it be "real". I honestly relate very hard, she's got everything going on and it's just falling apart and she's scared of losing everything, and she's just acting out in random ways because of that. Like yeah, it could have done with more time to play out and more narrative attention, but I thought the ideas were excellent, the events and ways they happened were nearly perfect for me. Now yeah, it's a super high-difficulty high-maintenance situation, it's essentially 4 relationships (AB, BC, AC, ABC) all in 1, and you have to deal with all that. But we don't really see much of them after they've gotten together, just a few snippets of them navigating it well. You could bring that same argument against a few of the relationships, it feels to me like a lot of your problems with the polyamory are a mix of not really being a huge fan of polyamory in media in general and of problems AnoKiss has overall that you feel are amplified by the extra character and the extra complexity of the relationship. Still, I hope you understand why I love it, and why I don't think it's quite as unrealistic or as bad as many people on here make it out to be.

@BugDevil
I mean, "magically" is kinda weird. They already had pretty heavy emotional intimacy due to their relationship online, so suddenly this connected with the real life people (remember, an outside source had thought, from hearing about their conversations, they'd been flirting online already, so they were quite close for sure).

Online persona and real life persona are often not excessively indicative of each other. Facettes, not reflections. This case is a perfect example of that actually. I know why Canno used that plot device. It almost felt like she cheated a bit there haha

But we don't really see much of them after they've gotten together, just a few snippets of them navigating it well. You could bring that same argument against a few of the relationships, it feels to me like a lot of your problems with the polyamory are a mix of not really being a huge fan of polyamory in media in general and of problems AnoKiss has overall that you feel are amplified by the extra character and the extra complexity of the relationship. Still, I hope you understand why I love it, and why I don't think it's quite as unrealistic or as bad as many people on here make it out to be.

So you do see that the complexity is indeed an amplifier for the issues, though, yes?
I honestly don't believe that any other pairing (well except Haine and her aunt-sister, but those two were doomed from the start) faced any problems that honestly needed elaborations on or were hard to swallow. In many cases the relationships were already at the cusp of developing anyway and sometimes even already there (the final pair was a rebound after all). Honestly, most of the pairings took a longer time than people who call this rushed give them credit for. Our main pair being the best example (2 freaking years lol).

I absolutely understand why you like it. It is still rather unrealistic to me though and that will probably never change. Well, nobody asked for pure realism anyway or most of these pairings would be complete dumpster fires haha

last edited at Dec 28, 2019 5:32PM

Well, I think the two student council people definitely need elaboration, we got one facet of their very temporary relationship. The cosplayers too, they're now long distance, that increases the complexity of what's going on by a huge amount. Ai and Maya too, I thought they had a bit of a thing, but they didn't anymore later on? (that's also the previous love triangle Canno used in her works, they had one for a bit with Chiharu for sure). Anyway, I'm just saying, all the relationships had a lot more complexity that could be shown if they'd got the sole spotlight and/or more time, that's a curse of the format, not an issue with the polyamorous relationship. Also, I believe there's a distinct passing of time within the polyamorous relationship, it feels to me at least like a week or two, and my own situation started with me dating the first girl, then 3 days later I was dating them both and things had been kinda-resolved (very temporarily, that relationship had a lot of problems, but as for the problems arising specifically from polyamory).

Well, I think the two student council people definitely need elaboration, we got one facet of their very temporary relationship.

As they never started a relationship, I don't count them. I think it wouldn't take much to flip them though, because they are both tsunderes. Though I and a lot of other people here mentioned before that if there was a spin-off, these two would probably the best fit to have more elaboration there.

The cosplayers too, they're now long distance, that increases the complexity of what's going on by a huge amount.

I disagree. The long distance situation is temporary and they have already gotten into a position where their situation will not be shaken by such trivialities anymore (I'm exaggerating).

Ai and Maya too, I thought they had a bit of a thing, but they didn't anymore later on? (that's also the previous love triangle Canno used in her works, they had one for a bit with Chiharu for sure).

Again, I disagree. It was never implied that Ai had a thing for her. Ai is the only straight girl in the entire campus, which is kind of her role. Chiharu/Izumi was not a love triangle, because senpai was never an option. It was more like a love line (Senpai <-- Chiharu <-- Izumi) with Chiharu eventually just turning around lol

Also, I believe there's a distinct passing of time within the polyamorous relationship, it feels to me at least like a week or two

That's laughably short. There is not a single pair in this story that got together that fast except for them. Canno used a plot device to make it happen and already basically skipped the other two sides of the triangle to make it fit into one volume. And this is very much an issue caused by the polyamory itself, because having more components causes more space to be occupied and thus Canno had to dumb down all the characters and their agency. lol
But again... it worked out somehow. I doubt many authors would have fared better with those limitations.

last edited at Dec 28, 2019 5:54PM

It did seem to me like Canno intended to pair Chiharu with Ai at first… but then Izumi did appear in the first chapter's opening spread, albeit with her old, scrapped design…

Whatever the case, I like that Ai stayed the "best buddy" character in the end. She definitely works better this way. She's this series' Harumin in a way.

PS: What do you mean by "the student council people"? The grumpy glasses girl?

last edited at Dec 28, 2019 7:36PM

PS: What do you mean by "the student council people"? The grumpy glasses girl?

The two who competed for president and pretend to hate eachother while actually living together and liking eachother.

Oooh right, Hikari and Nagisa. XD Err, yeah, to quote someone on this thread, "they'll probably keep saying they hate each other when they live together in old age surrounded by cats."

(seriously though, I would have loved an arc with Grumpy Glasses Girl :'( )

last edited at Dec 28, 2019 7:40PM

Oooh right, Hikari and Nagisa. XD Err, yeah, to quote someone on this thread, "they'll probably keep saying they hate each other when they live together in old age surrounded by cats."

(seriously though, I would have loved an arc with Grumpy Glasses Girl :'( )

That would be me: https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/posts/439161

Those two--I can just see it: "Just because we live in the same house and have sex occasionally doesn't mean we're together together."

Grumpy glasses girls are always welcome.

"I got married to her because of the tax benefits (assuming a future she can), what do you mean 'like her'. I'm only living with her until I find a house I want to buy." surreptitiously shreds a real estate magazine behind her back

^ OMG, I can see that happening.

I got married to her because of the tax benefits

Ikr

So, I've been re-reading this for a few days now, and am currently at ch37 page 6. In the mere 6 pages of that chapter that I've read, I have compared the relationship between the clubs as something along the lines of Roman politics in the late republic. I mean, think about it: the big clubs are the more powerful ones, they're basically the establishment; this would make the small clubs like commoners who feel mistreated. When it comes to stuco elections, they would back different candidates, who, based on their promises and opinions, could, if we continue the comparison with Roman politics, would basically make a (mostly) status quo faction and a "reformist" faction. Tatsumi wass basically just following the establishment, while Torayama was hoping to ride a populist wave to the presidential position. Now we all know how it ended, which is why the comparison with the late Roman Republic almost immediately starts collapsing due to unusability, but it struck me as interesting during this re-reading, and I just had to make a remark of that before the rest of the chapter (or even further, the rest of their arc) could distract me or make me forget or just make me consider such comparison falling on me as too embarrassing for me to share.

So, I've been re-reading this for a few days now, and am currently at ch37 page 6. In the mere 6 pages of that chapter that I've read, I have compared the relationship between the clubs as something along the lines of Roman politics in the late republic. I mean, think about it: the big clubs are the more powerful ones, they're basically the establishment; this would make the small clubs like commoners who feel mistreated. When it comes to stuco elections, they would back different candidates, who, based on their promises and opinions, could, if we continue the comparison with Roman politics, would basically make a (mostly) status quo faction and a "reformist" faction. Tatsumi wass basically just following the establishment, while Torayama was hoping to ride a populist wave to the presidential position. Now we all know how it ended, which is why the comparison with the late Roman Republic almost immediately starts collapsing due to unusability, but it struck me as interesting during this re-reading, and I just had to make a remark of that before the rest of the chapter (or even further, the rest of their arc) could distract me or make me forget or just make me consider such comparison falling on me as too embarrassing for me to share.

BV, you are a complete nutjob. And I mean that in the best possible way.

(Should you happen to have any yuri/cartography thoughts, by all means don’t hold back.)

So, I've been re-reading this for a few days now, and am currently at ch37 page 6. In the mere 6 pages of that chapter that I've read, I have compared the relationship between the clubs as something along the lines of Roman politics in the late republic. I mean, think about it: the big clubs are the more powerful ones, they're basically the establishment; this would make the small clubs like commoners who feel mistreated. When it comes to stuco elections, they would back different candidates, who, based on their promises and opinions, could, if we continue the comparison with Roman politics, would basically make a (mostly) status quo faction and a "reformist" faction. Tatsumi wass basically just following the establishment, while Torayama was hoping to ride a populist wave to the presidential position. Now we all know how it ended, which is why the comparison with the late Roman Republic almost immediately starts collapsing due to unusability, but it struck me as interesting during this re-reading, and I just had to make a remark of that before the rest of the chapter (or even further, the rest of their arc) could distract me or make me forget or just make me consider such comparison falling on me as too embarrassing for me to share.

BV, you are a complete nutjob. And I mean that in the best possible way.

Well, I am the resident history enthusiast here, for what it's worth.

(Should you happen to have any yuri/cartography thoughts, by all means don’t hold back.)

As the resident mapper here, I actually can say I've planned several mapping series, one sci-fi-ish does include a yuri ship. Tho, when I gave some spoilers in Dynasty Cafe who knows how long ago, the level of enthusiasm was... to put it mildly, underwhelming.

So, I've been re-reading this for a few days now, and am currently at ch37 page 6. In the mere 6 pages of that chapter that I've read, I have compared the relationship between the clubs as something along the lines of Roman politics in the late republic. I mean, think about it: the big clubs are the more powerful ones, they're basically the establishment; this would make the small clubs like commoners who feel mistreated. When it comes to stuco elections, they would back different candidates, who, based on their promises and opinions, could, if we continue the comparison with Roman politics, would basically make a (mostly) status quo faction and a "reformist" faction. Tatsumi wass basically just following the establishment, while Torayama was hoping to ride a populist wave to the presidential position. Now we all know how it ended, which is why the comparison with the late Roman Republic almost immediately starts collapsing due to unusability, but it struck me as interesting during this re-reading, and I just had to make a remark of that before the rest of the chapter (or even further, the rest of their arc) could distract me or make me forget or just make me consider such comparison falling on me as too embarrassing for me to share.

Are you suggesting Torayama was the Tribunus Plebis? Because holy shit that's such a take. I must admit my Roman history is shaky, it was a 9am class and I left it a little over halfway through the semester because it was all just dates and names, and I like the other parts of classical history than that, but I still remember that much. Anyway, damn, I'm here for that analysis.

Are you suggesting Torayama was the Tribunus Plebis? Because holy shit that's such a take. I must admit my Roman history is shaky, it was a 9am class and I left it a little over halfway through the semester because it was all just dates and names, and I like the other parts of classical history than that, but I still remember that much. Anyway, damn, I'm ***here*** for that analysis.

I'd probably compare Torayama to Caesar when it comes to ambitions and the Gracchi (I'm pretty sure I'm misspelling that) brothers in terms of how much was achieved and how far she's/they've got (just in both cases with no bloodshed involved lol).

last edited at Dec 31, 2019 5:40AM