Forum › Trying Out Marriage With My Female Friend discussion
yet i still wonder, what good is an empty apology?
OK, I guess I’ll bite:
What is “empty” about her apology?
What would constitute an apology that was not “empty”?
i wonder why it is, that you always seem to need a clarification on some of the most basic concepts?
anyway, an empty apology is a meaningless expression of regret for wrongdoing, and in regards to chapter 30, its displayed in how the author has minimized the ill will of the victim of the wrongdoing, to the extent that the apology given rings hallow, instead it ends up feeling like some kind of a bad joke.
after all, the author set up this sham of a dramatic plot line by having a non-consensual kiss lead into surprise domestic violence, then payed said drama off by having the victim of domestic violence blackmail the victim of the non-consensual kiss into giving her a kiss on the cheek she slapped, in the name of calling things even.
and, i would love to say that this is the end since this is already bad enough, but for some reason the author is hell bent on making this manga the best comedy possible, as kurumi proceeds to once again steal a kiss from ruriko repeating the mistake that started the drama, and yet this time its seen as an acceptable act somehow?
tldr.
What is “empty” about her apology?
her apology feels “empty” as a result of the author making light of her wrongdoing.
What would constitute an apology that was not “empty”?
serious reflection and genuine introspection.
The “kiss steal” is to show that this time there is no boundary being crossed, she is not violating the boundary again lol. Felt like a very genuine apology, tied up with some sugary sweetness, but writing is one of those wondrous things where it hits everyone involved differently.
I for one hope this series gets at least two more volumes
"I'm afraid that if I ask for more from our relationship you'll end up unhappy or resentful of me."
"But I'm sure I can slap the shit out of you and that won't make you in the least unhappy or resentful of me."
As I already pointed out, they were both wrong in that situation, and they've both apologized for it.
I don’t understand how people can think kissing isn’t a violation but slapping from being scared of a kiss is suddenly damnation for the person who had the emotional reaction. It genuinely makes me sick , the lack of empathy on dynasty scans
This chapter is clearly meant to be sweet and all, but I just can't link her explanation to her slap, I can only make sense of it by concluding that it's a rationalisation
The slap was a panicked reaction to having a drunk person violate her personal intimate space. The discussion here is more about why she's been weird about the whole situation after the fact.
It's not just some drunk violating your personal space, it's your crush kissing you while an intimate mood has been built up
Do you tell that to people who have others force kisses on them during dates? Sexual boundaries are just as important as physical ones.
It’s as easy as asking “can I kiss you” . I’ve never had a girl I’m on a date with say “Omg how could you ask” but I sure as hell would slap ANY person who forced their lips on mine without permission
Not bad. But I also think that the reasoning for The Slap was a bit weak? But not complaining, was still cute.
Like many people, I too was surprised by that slap, simply because otherwise this has been a pretty fluffy series overall, and it just seemed out of line with the previous development of the character and the tone of the series.
That said, I’m old enough to remember when in the US drunk jokes and cartoons (“Tee many martoonies!”) and comedy narrative tropes about blackout drinking (“Did we . . do anything last night?”) were incredibly common, and they just aren’t anymore. (They do still exist, but not nearly as much as in the past.)
That’s in contrast to current Asian popular culture (manga, manhua, anime, Kdramas) that I’ve seen, which have a whole culture and set of rituals built around excessive drinking, after-work events, mixers, etc. That means that not only are “normal” (i.e., not identified as a problem drinker) characters often shown as drinking too much, other characters are shown as reacting to drunk characters in a wide variety of ways.
IOW, the “longed-for romantic advance, only the person is drunk” trope can be a much more common, and more emotionally fraught situation than it might appear to an outside reader.
According to the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, domestic violence is defined as follows:
Domestic violence is the willful intimidation, physical assault, battery, sexual assault, and/or other abusive behavior as part of a systematic pattern of power and control perpetrated by one intimate partner against another. It includes physical violence, sexual violence, psychological violence, and emotional abuse. The frequency and severity of domestic violence can vary dramatically; however, the one constant component of domestic violence is one partner’s consistent efforts to maintain power and control over the other.
Domestic violence is an epidemic affecting individuals in every community regardless of age, economic status, sexual orientation, gender, race, religion, or nationality. It is often accompanied by emotionally abusive and controlling behavior that is only a fraction of a systematic pattern of dominance and control. Domestic violence can result in physical injury, psychological trauma, and in severe cases, even death. The devastating physical, emotional, and psychological consequences of domestic violence can cross generations and last a lifetime.
There are 5 forms of domestic violence
- Physical Inflicting or attempting to inflict physical injury
example: grabbing, pinching, shoving, slapping, hitting, biting, arm-twisting, kicking, punching, hitting with blunt objects, stabbing, shooting
Withholding access to resources necessary to maintain health example: medication, medical care, wheelchair, food or fluids, sleep, hygienic assistance Forcing alcohol or other drug use
- Sexual Coercing or attempting to coerce any sexual contact without consent
example: marital rape, acquaintance rape, forced sex after physical beating, attacks on the sexual parts of the body, forced prostitution, fondling, sodomy, sex with others
Attempting to undermine the victim’ sexuality
example: treating him/her in a sexually derogatory manner, criticizing sexual performance and desirability, accusations of infidelity, withholding sex
- Psychological Instilling or attempting to instill fear
example: intimidation, threatening physical harm to self, victim, and/or others, threatening to harm and/or kidnap children, menacing, blackmail, harassment, destruction of pets and property, mind games, stalking
Isolating or attempting to isolate victim from friends, family, school, and/or work example: withholding access to phone and/or transportation, undermining victim’s personal relationships, harassing others, constant “checking up,” constant accompaniment, use of unfounded accusations, forced imprisonment
- Emotional Undermining or attempting to undermine victim sense of worth
example: constant criticism, belittling victim’s abilities and competency, name-calling, insults, put-downs, silent treatment, manipulating victim’s feelings and emotions to induce guilt, subverting a partner’s relationship with the children, repeatedly making and breaking promises
- Economic Making or attempting to make the victim financially dependent
example: maintaining total control over financial resources including victim’s earned income or resources received through public assistance or social security, withholding money and/or access to money, forbidding attendance at school, forbidding employment, on-the-job harassment, requiring accountability and justification for all money spent, forced welfare fraud, withholding information about family running up bills for which the victim is responsible for payment.
do we think that the nonconsent path (rape kiss, slap) of this relationship is going to continue?
i pray not. in any case, there are lots of resources for domestic violence, dont ever feel alone. i hope that some of this has been helpful to people who feel ill at ease with some of the violence in manga.
last edited at Aug 29, 2023 11:23AM
The tendency of readers to divorce events depicted in manga from their overall context leads to a great deal of overreaction and people talking past one another.
A key component of the above description is "a systematic pattern of dominance and control." People in relationships mess up once in a while for a wide variety of reasons; that doesn't equate to a long-term abusive pattern. In fact, part of the long-term misunderstanding in the MC's relationship is an excessive caution about seeming to want to control or direct the other's behavior.
All of the things described above certainly are undesirable behaviors, but I think it's wild overstatement to call the relationship in this story as being on a "nonconsent path (rape kiss, slap)." We're talking about a single, very atypical incident under unusual circumstances, one that both people have apologized for and talked out to their satisfaction.
last edited at Aug 29, 2023 1:25PM
We're talking about a single, very atypical incident under unusual circumstances, one that both people have apologized for and talked out to their satisfaction.
Your words here are exactly describing the other day between us in other thread. Sorry for delayed proper reaction on your apology a few days ago (hope you noticed the edit)
Just did not know how to react at first being aware that fault was not completely yours, and from surprise that someone was so kind to apologize and acknowledge a mistake, it rarely happens here...
Anyway, about the slap, it could be a reflexive reaction, not expected from both sides, and completely unintentional by Ruriko.
A reflex, not because her beloved drunk kissed her without a consent, but because some pent up tension built already in Ruriko.
They are walking usually around each other constantly on tip-toes, always restrained and frightened not to make a wrong move or embarrass themselves (it's a part of their culture).
So, it's somehow logical that drunk kiss can provoke a reflexive slap, like opening a dam of restrained emotional energy, and flood of restrained emotions turned into slap.
Kurumi freed her own tension by drinking, lowered her inhibitions and expressed her restrained emotions through a kiss.
They just were not on same "wavelengths" in same time, and it caused the incident.
last edited at Aug 29, 2023 2:50PM
as far as i can see it, there seems to be a dissonance between the readers understanding of the severity of the slap, the authors intentions for the slap, and the characters actions in regards to the slap, which causes things to be out of order.
this results in how charitable you are towards shacky writing, determining how out of order this section of the story feels.
as far as i can see it, there seems to be a dissonance between the readers understanding of the severity of the slap, the authors intentions for the slap, and the characters actions in regards to the slap, which causes things to be out of order.
this results in how charitable you are towards shacky writing, determining how out of order this section of the story feels.
I think you’re basically right about the writing in regard to the slap. As people, including me, have been saying, it just seems like such a tonal lapse in comparison to the rest of the series, and a less overtly violent gesture (a shove, pushing away, etc.) most likely would have been just as effective in communicating the hurt feelings and misunderstandings in that situation.
And now here we are at the turning point of the series, where we should be celebrating the MCs finally communicating their feelings to one another, with some of us debating the possibility of future domestic violence in this otherwise very fluffy relationship. Insofar as that’s probably not the author’s intention, that’s certainly less than effective writing.
But thing here should be simple.
If someone responds on unexpected kiss with a reflexive slap, it can only mean that they were previously physically endangered by someone (growing up in a household where they were exposed to domestic violence, or having unwanted physical experience in their youth?)
What exactly is the case with Ruriko we don't know, but that slap speaks about her more than words.
Of course, this is just an assumption, talking only about possibility.
Was it "real" intention of the author or not, who knows.
But if you are "reading between lines" about her gesture, that's how you will understand the situation.
last edited at Aug 29, 2023 3:40PM
thanks everyone for remaining civil as well as being understanding, and kind to one another.
my take:
an unsolicited, non-consensual kiss is a form of violence and reacting by slapping the person and running away isn't really that surprising to me. if you've ever had a drunk person abruptly kiss you without consent (i have), it's extremely confusing and can be incredibly distressing. i don't think ruriko intended to hurt kurumi, but just to get away (to safety) as quickly as she could, and personally, i don't really see anything wrong with that.
even if ruriko does want to smooch in the future, the fact that it came suddenly and without her consent can be extremely scary, and in a moment of adrenaline, slapping kurumi might have even happened before she could make a conscious decision about it.
personally, i thought that these three chapters were fine (not great). it didn't really seem that out of character to me. kurumi getting a bit too drunk and being impulsive checks out. ruriko is clearly worried she will hold kurumi back if their relationship becomes more intimate and they commit to staying together long term. she seems worried that if they become intimate, she won't be able to stop herself from wanting to stay with kurumi forever. she's scared she will change kurumi's life in a way that kurumi grows to resent.
i'm happy they made progress, even if it was due to extremely unfortunate circumstances. hopefully they spend more time discussing what happened and setting appropriate boundaries and expectations going forward. (i'm going to assume this happens off camera regardless.)
last edited at Aug 29, 2023 7:38PM
if you've ever had a drunk person abruptly kiss you without consent (i have), it's extremely confusing and can be incredibly distressing.
Not a drunk person but someone much older and not of preferred gender. It felt like that you are a bomb ready to explode if someone wanted to approach too close. Terrible feelings of unsafety.
As you say it is incredibly distressing, more when younger you are...
Just hope you were not 15 year old or even younger and that it did not leave deep scars on you....
i don't think ruriko intended to hurt kurumi, but just to get away (to safety) as quickly as she could, and personally, i don't really see anything wrong with that.
Definitely it was unintentional.
Here is something very important what you said:
slapping kurumi might have even happened before she could make a conscious decision about it.
It is true, it was not a conscious decision. That kiss triggered her.
And she acted reflexive, slapping Kurumi.
Reflexes belong to our unconscious (subconscious) part of psyche, like breathing etc.
That's why there is a great possibility that Ruriko was assaulted in her past by someone, her reflexive slap says that something is repressed in her subconsciousness coming out as a reflex in a shape of a slap.
It means, there is already something what caused her to be triggered by that unexpected kiss.
Ruriko is not an assaulter in this situation, she simply reacted defending herself, feeling endangered by unexpected situation.
So, you are right again that she wanted to get back to safety as quickly as she could, because that's the first thing what someone feels when attacked that way (and to wash their mouth).
If her slap was not reflexive, it would be that she intentionally wanted to hurt Kurumi slapping her and put her in her place because Kurumi overstepped the boundaries.
But it's not the case here, as you said, and there's nothing wrong with Ruriko's reaction if we understand her reasons for it (subconscious self-defense)
last edited at Aug 29, 2023 11:17PM
That's why there is a great possibility that Ruriko was assaulted in her past by someone, her reflexive slap says that something is repressed in her subconsciousness coming out as a reflex in a shape of a slap.
Based on what? What knowledge do you have in this area to suggest that with confidence? There's some large leaps being made here based on too little, unless there's other evidence from earlier in the manga that you think implies this idea? That or you believe anyone who reflexively slaps a person after having their personal space invaded is doing so as a result of past trauma/assault?
As people, including me, have been saying, it just seems like such a tonal lapse in comparison to the rest of the series, and a less overtly violent gesture (a shove, pushing away, etc.) most likely would have been just as effective in communicating the hurt feelings and misunderstandings in that situation.
A slap in a situation like that is not an uncommon response to that kind of sudden physical interaction (in real life and literature). It's also not much different than a push, or shove, etc. In this case it was reflexive. I don't think it took anything away from or affected the tone in a lingering way. In most cases that defensive slap is not treated as an issue and the one who caused the fear of safety or personal space isn't treated as the victim. It was definitely intended to be dramatic but be reasonably corrected after their apologies. I think for most, that will be fine. I guess it's an issue here (for some) but overall I'd be surprised if it were a major sticking point. So I'd disagree with questioning the writing.
last edited at Aug 30, 2023 12:20AM
That's why there is a great possibility that Ruriko was assaulted in her past by someone, her reflexive slap says that something is repressed in her subconsciousness coming out as a reflex in a shape of a slap.
Based on what? What knowledge do you have in this area to suggest that with confidence?
It's based on a lot researching about functions of our brain connected with reflexes, observing through various at first sight not connected fields. Some of those researched fields are biopsychology, acoustic (resonance, sound production, masking effects...), human behavior, etc.
Researching was about misusing subliminal and supraliminal stimuli influencing our brain (for example how to destabilize functions of anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) which are:
-our attention,
-decision-making,
-our emotions,
-ethics and morality...
and insular cortex functions such as:
-compassion,
-empathy,
-taste,
-perception,
-motor control,
-self-awareness,
-cognitive functioning,
-interpersonal experience,
-awareness of homeostatic emotions such as hunger, pain and fatigue...
All of those functions are very important behavioral cognitive functions which can be influenced (positively or negatively) through free access to our subconsciousness.
And, observing human behavior globally, we can't say there are no problems with mentioned functions above, that lots of people struggle with the lack of attention (focus), lack of compassion and empathy, struggle with inconveniences connected with food, etc.
Key for healing (or malfunction) could be in sound-ultrasound influences on centers of our brain through our subconsciousness.
Practically, it's scientifically proved that is possible to "hack" our brain through sounds connected with supraliminal (ultrasound) and subliminal (infrasound) stimuli and that way is possible to gain free access into our defenseless subconsciousness, simply using our hearing reflexes.
And nobody will notice! But our brain will start to decode those signals beyond the threshold of hearing on subconscious level (it's very complex theme to explain here everything how it functions)
There are scientifically proved healing methods based on brain resonance and reflexes, but same knowledge can be misused and make contra-effects.
So, those researches are based a lot on our reflexive behavior, and things which are triggering us, how and why.
Knowing it, that's why Ruriko's gesture resemble the pattern noticed in that research.
There's some large leaps being made here based on too little, unless there's other evidence from earlier in the manga that you think implies this idea?
It was mentioned before that comment you quoted:
What exactly is the case with Ruriko we don't know, but that slap speaks about her more than words.
Of course, this is just an assumption, talking only about possibility.
Was it "real" intention of the author or not, who knows.
But if you are "reading between lines" about her gesture, that's how you will understand the situation.
As you see, it's not a final conclusion, but " the most possible possibility" based on reality of human behavior.
It depends on author, do they know what exactly they pulled here out, or it was without deeper meaning for the rest of the story.
...or you believe anyone who reflexively slaps a person after having their personal space invaded is doing so as a result of past trauma/assault?
You should not say that, like all kinds of slaps are reflexive. Particularly slaps which are reflexes (not conscious and intentional reactions) are usually triggered by something what is already in our subconsciousness. And it can be trauma/assault, mostly.
Nobody here will say the cause of a slap was some suppressed aggressive tendency of Ruriko or her suppressed hatred toward Kurumi .
So, yes, the most possible cause for her triggered reflex-slapping should be the trauma/assault.
Don't forget, Kurumi is not some stranger who is forcing unwanted kiss on Ruriko. There's no reason to slap her in this situation, except if it was a reflex triggered by that kiss, what indicates something (traumatic) from the past.
And, don't observe just a slap here, the key is in the trigger.
In this case the trigger was an unexpected kiss.
Is it possible to react reflexively just from a surprise? Yes.
But reflexive push fits here better, if surprise was a case.
If reflex comes out as a slap, it indicates some serious form of violence.
An extremely triggered reaction.
So, the most logical explanation here is that Ruriko may have a very traumatic experience in her past, probably being kissed forcefully and unexpectedly by someone.
Also, there are slaps (or pushing) which are not reflexes, happening in same situation like in manga. They are conscious decisions to slap or push someone (usually a stranger) invading forcefully our personal space. And that someone deserved it. But not Kurumi, even when she is drunk.
As people, including me, have been saying, it just seems like such a tonal lapse in comparison to the rest of the series, and a less overtly violent gesture (a shove, pushing away, etc.) most likely would have been just as effective in communicating the hurt feelings and misunderstandings in that situation.
You are right, there's not much previously in the series what can explain a sudden violent gesture.
But it could be somehow logical, they did not have a close physical contact before this unexpected kiss.
So we could not notice anything unusual, Kurumi could not notice it as well. There was no trigger before this, to give us a sign.
It's just a question how author will continue this story. Leaving it as one solved incident, or dig deeper in characters and reveal something hidden about them.
A slap in a situation like that is not an uncommon response to that kind of sudden physical interaction (in real life and literature). It's also not much different than a push, or shove, etc.
It is actually very different, it's written above in this comment explaining how the form (appearance) of reflexes (and WHAT TRIGGERED them) can give us indications what we are keeping suppressed in our subconsciousness.
Our reactions can tell about us more than words, especially our triggered reactions.
last edited at Aug 30, 2023 12:26PM
Something important:
Real life testimonies about reflex-slapping and comparison with manga
Speaking as a person who witnessed two reflex slapping (or even may be a protagonist in some of next events), let's see how it works in reality:
Case 1
Person A and B are riding a bus talking about favorite food.
Person A (to Person B): "Do you like chocolate?"
PB: "No, I like oranges"
PA: "No, no, you like chocolate more!"
PB: "Oranges!"
PA (teasing): "No, nooo, you like chocolate!"
PB suddenly slaps PA roaring: "I SAID I LIKE ORANGES!!!!"
(both of them stare at each other frozen and shocked by reaction of person B...)
This is a great example for better understanding our subconsciousness connected with reflexes.
Obviously, PB was someone who was harshly verbally abused in their past. And forced to "love and like" something they don't like
(THIS TYPE OF REACTION CAN EASILY HAPPEN TO A GAY PERSON WHO IS CONSTANTLY LIVING IN SOME HOMOPHOBIC ENVIRONMENT (family or society) OR EVEN TO A TRANS PERSON, IN SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!)
PA simply not knowing, teased and triggered that something what was suppressed in subconsciousness of PB. It RESONATED negatively with previous similar experiences of PB.
PB's reflex slap was deeply suppressed anger toward a previous attacker who forced verbally something unwanted on them. And by accident PA triggered it and became "a victim" (like Kurumi in manga)
Case 2
Camera is recording kids playing on the street.
Kid A rides a bicycle and is recorded by a cameraman.
Kid B suddenly approaches and pulls the bike under Kid A pushing them away and taking the bike forcefully from them.
Kid A reflexively slaps Kid B while being pushed from the bike and stays on guard like a boxer (all by reflex)...
Here, Kid A is seriously attacked and they felt endangered on many levels.
Someone is forcefully taking something from them. Someone entered forcefully their personal space. Someone is physically attacking them, pushing them.
Slap was reflexive self-defense and in this case reflexive reaction on intentional violence; Kid A answers on violence with violence for a sake of self-defense.
Here is actually not important if Kid A have some possible traumatic experience previously. Or if Kid A and Kid B know each other.
Kid A is acting naturally (like innate reflex for self-defense).
Let's compare this with manga. In a case of Kurumi-Ruriko, we have an unexpected kiss what triggered a slap (as a reflex self-defence)
Here is the question,
WHY Ruriko feels that she is violently attacked with a kiss of someone she knows, and answers on it with violence?
Is she closer to Case 1 or Case 2 example?
last edited at Aug 31, 2023 6:30PM
Actually begging y'all to go outside and speak to a person just once
Nomura's knowing glare says it all.
However, who cares what anybody else is thinking?
And it's very amusing to read reactions of people and know the reasons what exactly triggered them to comment the way they commented after something was said.
Don't forget the said rule:
"Our reactions can tell about us more than words, especially our triggered reactions"
Anyway, the addition and "too much talking" was a correction for you guys, not to feel forced to accept something said by someone else "just like that",
but to see clearly 2 true cases and compare it with manga to understand the characters and their reactions better
Awwwww my heart melted and my soul got cleansed that was soooooooo sweet I love this series so much.
last edited at Sep 1, 2023 2:00AM
That was a great chapter and the complainers can go somewhere else. People always try to drag out things they dislike rather than talking about what they enjoy on these forums. Less negativity and more positivity people.
I'm glad these goofy two finally talked to each other and resolved some things and a minor slap and other confusion seems to have been resolved. It did feel slightly rushed but it was still good.
OK well I kind of hated everything about this new chapter. From the reason why she slapped her to her apologizing about slapping her and to the joke first kiss. Nah, fam this ain't it
I would have been fine if they kissed this chapter. It's just that it shouldn't have been turned into a joke because it's trying to offset the dramatic or trying to offset the talk they just had a heart-to-heart. a
And then they turned it into a joke this wasn't exactly a romantic comedy to begin with anyway so why the hell was their First Kiss turned into a joke?? I just do not like any of that.
last edited at Sep 13, 2023 11:26PM
The Author is so good at slow burn and so bad at endings
