(coming from https://dynasty-scans.com/images/25264)

@eromancer Interestingly enough, Dynasty at the moment has more Superstar pics and about and equal amount of Superstar doujins as it did about two months after the original series's season 2 had ended.

Anyway, I feel like you misunderstood why I find SumiKeke forced. It's not because they're shipped and developed through shipping that makes them forced, I love ChikaRiko and they have the exact same thing going on in season 1, rather it's because their relationship feels like it comes out of nowhere and doesn't have much of a foundation to it.
Had episode 4 been about Keke and Sumire rather than Kanon and Sumire then I probably wouldn't find them forced. Also, another thing is that I feel like the characters we were introduced to in episodes 1 - 4 feel different from the characters that we see them as when they interact with each other, I find Keke's tsundereness for instance to just feel out of character. Her being a bit tsun could've been set up in 1 - 3 and then we see in 4 that Sumire really draws it out of her which would make their relationship feel more natural and built towards and just all around stronger. Like what ChikaRiko, KanaMari and, despite hating the ship I have to admit, ChikaYou all did

As for the shipping thing, I find that just focusing on ships makes the group feel weaker. I heavily disagree with your take on μ's, what I like about them is that every character feels like they're really close to each other.
We have: the close friendship with all three year groups, Nico is really close to the first years, NozoEli's friendship with Maki, Honoka's and Eli's friendship, Nozomi's interactions with Umi before Eli joined, everyone's treatment of Rin and Nico in their respective episodes, etc. I can really see μ's as a group of really close friends because I never feel like it emphasises some relationships over others. Some of the relationships might be stronger than others but it never feels like the og series ignores potential friendships in favour of ships
From there we also get to another thing. To me μ's's ships feel organic, like they grew out of the show itself and the characters' interactions with each other as well as from the fandom's interactions with these characters (which I think is important because the OG School Idol Project from the beginning involved fan feedback).
On the other hand, Sunshine onwards the franchise feels like it writes character interactions based on shipping which makes the ships feel stronger but the characters weaker because it lessens the way the characters interact with the whole group and thus makes the group feel weaker like it's not as important as the ships.
I love ChikaRiko but I don't particularly care about Chika or Riko on their own. They're interesting characters to me because of their love story but not as individuals. That's one of the main reasons I dropped Sunshine season 2, I was there for ChikaRiko but it wasn't giving it to me so I had nothing else to be interested in. I didn't particularly care about Aqours or what happened to them nor did I care about the new ships in town with YohaRiko or ChikaYou.
As for Superstar, I really love Kanon and Keke as individuals and Chisato and Sumire seemed like they had a lot potential in 1 - 4. But then the characters mostly just became parts of ships and what I really liked about them was swept aside. SumiKeke and ChisaKanon just kind of happened and now the characters are tied to each other because plot. That'd be great if this was a love story but Love Live isn't a love story. It wouldn't be even if SumiKeke kissed in season two episode whatever because SumiKeke aren't the main characters of Superstar. Liella is. And the focus on shipping just to me feels like it takes away from what the series is ultimately about: the idol group.

I guess there's the big difference. I'm here primarily for the story of the idol group and want the individuals of said groups to feel like they're first and foremost a part of that group. μ's's individual stories compliment the group whilst Aqour's and Liella's individual stories compliment their ships. Except the first four episodes of Superstar where the story isn't yet interested in shipping

And that's where Nijigasaki succeeds I think. I don't have a problem with its shipping because it is primarily about individual characters being a part of a whole instead of a group that's made up of individual characters. I dislike Nijigasaki for other reasons but I think it's far more successful in its shipping than Sunshine or Superstar because said shipping doesn't feel like it takes away from the narrative in the way it does in Sunshine and Superstar. In fact I think the shipping in Nijigasaki compliments the narrative more than it takes away from it thanks to the lack of a group

last edited at Dec 16, 2022 9:28AM

Well, I'll say this: I think those of us outside Japan (I'm making an assumption about you here) suffer from a narrow window into this whole thing, because much of this gets decided in Dengeki where the characters are introduced and developed, well before the anime (and in the case of SIP and Sunshine, a manga to boot). They run articles and fan polls, get reader feedback, let them ask the characters questions (not to mention the weird thing where the voice actresses serve as IRL avatars for the characters as if they're a real idol group) and that's where a lot of the popular pairings come from. So it's possible we'd see these as a somewhat more organic kind of thing if we were immersed in all of that ahead of time. (Although in some cases, this might make for a more disjointed experience, since at times the anime writers take liberties with the characters as established - case in point, the third years in SIP, whose personalities in the anime are radically different from their initial conceptions in print.)

As for the relationships you point out in SIP, well, I guess I'll have to go back and watch again (it's been a while) because I struggled to recall a lot of the ones you mentioned, but I suspect much of it is more surface level than I would like. That's unfortunately all part of my biggest gripe with the anime industry - you get these exalted few like Naruto or One Piece or Fairy Tail that just go on ad infinitum and end up wasting time with lame filler episodes, while the rest give you two seasons (three if you're lucky) and you're done. Having just 24-26 or 36-39 episodes just isn't enough time to have both depth and breadth in the development of character relationships. And I guess if I have to pick, I prefer depth - whereas (not to put words in your mouth) but it sounds like you prefer breadth. Which I totally understand - it's an ensemble show after all. That's why I think these 9-12 piece idol shows deserve more time than they get as anime.

But I make no pretenses - I'm the shipping type. In fact, I'm glad you mentioned ChikaRiko, because that's precisely the kind of thing I wanted to see in SIP but unfortunately didn't get. Complete with the subsequent jealousy from You - delicious interpersonal drama. It's great whether you want to think of it as yuri or just close female bonding.

As for SumiKeke, what makes the relationship interesting is that Keke's attitude toward Sumire becomes antagonistic because Sumire is a prima donna who's obsessed with her childhood acting career and doesn't revere idolhood in the way Keke does. I feel like I recall that being more or less established before the beach episode (you'll have to forgive my lack of specificity regarding episode numbers). And when you have two characters who clash, well, what can I say - that's like catnip to a lot of shippers. It just makes for such interesting drama to have the whole "I hate you but I love you" dynamic. So to me the ship didn't come out of nowhere at all, because that sort of antagonism is a red flag for a lot of shippers.

And say, while I am talking to such a big fan of SIF, let me get your take on one aspect that's always bothered me: the slap. I mean, WTF? Was that a fucked up reaction or what? I felt like Honoka had every right to be mad (and hurt) about Kotori - I was feeling it with her - and yet she was the one who ended up being made out to be the bad guy and having to apologize. At the very least I thought it was a complete cop-out for the anime to end the episode there and never show the immediate reaction of Honoka and everyone else. Really made me kinda hate Umi a bit, especially given that she never really apologized to Honoka. What'd you think?

last edited at Dec 17, 2022 4:13AM

I don't like the whole Kotori arc at the end of season 1 in the first place.
The slap makes sense though and it wasn't just Honoka being mad, she was lashing out in a way that hurt everyone because suddenly μ's was disposable for her and that made Umi get mad. Still not well written like the rest of that arc since it was rushed and for the most part left unfinished since season finale.
And I wouldn't say I'm such a huge OG series fan. It's the only one that I like but at the end of the day it's just a good show with amazing music and not much more to me. I'm praising it so much in comparison to the other series but it has a myriad of its own problems as well, including a lot of the awkward drama in the first season

Anyway, I do prefer depth but I guess it's a different kind than you. Keeping with the ship I like, to me Riko in season 1 felt pretty flat because the only character she was allowed to interact with properly was Chika. That means we only get to explore one part of her and she only feels like a part of Aqours because she's Chika's friend
On the other hand while μ's doesn't have any single relationship that's as deep as ChikaRiko it still feels deeper as a whole because I can feel like the entire group are friends with each other. There isn't any character who feels like they're only close to one person and that's it. And as I said, the group is the protagonist of these three shows to me so having a strong group is in my opinion more important than having strong pairs. What I loved about Superstar at the start was the fact that with only five members it could've had both. But then it didn't. And then it threw that huge advantage away and added four more characters

I think a great way to highlight my issue with this shipping thing is to just point out that Chika and You were Kanan's childhood friends. That's a relationship that never gets explored, ChikaYou feel completely disconnected from Kanan beyond a surface level, because Sunshine was more interested in the 2nd and 3rd years' own romantic dramas so it didn't have time to explore a wider array of friendships including one of the first friendships the series established

Anyway, I guess the way to explain how I feel about shipping is to say that I like NozoEli, RinPana, TsubaHono, KanaMari, and interstingly enough KanoKe and KanoSumi for the exact same reason: they all feel like they put the characters before the ship (KanaMari still plays a bit into the shipping problem I have with Sunshine but they are still more this than the other type)
(I'd also love to say KotoUmi but I ship them because they looked really cute in episode 1 and NicoMaki are more complicated)
The only ship I ship that feels like it puts the ship before the characters (i.e. the ship is the main source of characterisation and development for the characters and they don't get much outsise of it) that I like is ChikaRiko and that's because of how blatant they are about it from the get go (I mean, episode 1 starts with Chika calling Riko a miracle) and because their foundation feels strong. They're not just paired together because of a dynamic rather they have a clear basis for what draws them together (Chika needs a composer, Riko wants to rediscover her sound) and everything that happens afterwards feels that it's built from that foundation.

KanoKe also has the same kind of "strong foundation" which is another reason for why SumiKeke feels weak to me. If Keke took Kanon's role in episode 4 then they'd probably have a foundation on which the ship is built that I'd like. If Keke was the one that got Sumire to join the group, if she was the one who learnt of the isopod incident of 20xx instead of Kanon telling her, if we got to see her irritation with Sumire's attitude front and centre in that episode with it being a central reason for why she's so fixated on Sumire, and with us seeing Keke wanting to get Sumire to join because of that iritation etc; then I'd possibly adore them. But instead they get one scene where Sumire insults idols and Keke defends them and the rest of the episode is about Kanon and Sumire growing closer which makes me ship KanoSumi but doesn't get me at all interested in SumiKeke.
And then for the rest of the series Sumire and Keke are mostly paired with each other even though there's not much of a foundation beyond their personalities working as a cute ship because it is a very cute ship I have to admit
It's like NicoMaki suddenly shooting up as a ship in season two except way more shippy and without the season break which made NicoMaki work for me

Anyway, I'm of course exaggerating with this but that's because I was already tired of the series thanks to Sunshine season 2 and I thought Superstar would be a refreshing new take but then it instead did the same kind of stuff that lead me to dislike Sunshine (even though I liked the shipping when I first watched it all of my main problems with it stem from the shipping) so my distaste for Superstar is amplified thanks to that. It's not just another Love Live that doesn't interest me like Nijigasaki, it's a Love Live that crushed my hopes after getting them up

And I feel like this is the part where I stop venting.
TLDR we like different things, I find Superstar disappointing, KanoHarem and KekeHarem are the best ships and need more content

last edited at Dec 17, 2022 6:44AM

Indeed, we do have different preferences.

Since you mention KotoUmi, and seem to cop to a thinness for its premise, I have to say I've always found that to be the most overrated ship. Admittedly, it's partly because I'm a Honoka stan and I hate her being left out, but also whenever I see doujins of the ship, it's not really Umi and Kotori. It's Umi and Freakotori, the hypersexualized version of Kotori that authors seem to take so much liberty with, despite her seemingly "pure" personality. (It's rather curious the way Kotori seems to be such a fertile ground for personality elaboration - she also seems to be a common choice for "yandere-ization".) Because otherwise, Umi's button-down, prim sensibility and Kotori's cheerful, easy going nature don't seem to leave much room for the kind of tension and conflict that make fictional relationships interesting (even though it might work fine in real life).

Personally I think Kotori and Umi have a really strong bond and I think they make for a very interesting ship. It's just that I started to ship them for completely different reasons than the other four (specifically, that scene in episode 1 where Kotori fetches Umi from archery practice and brings her to watch Honoka dancing made me ship the fuck out of them. It's only on a rewatch (like a week or two later) that I started to see the characters beyond the ship which also made me like the ship more. And I'm also a big Honoka stan but 1. I think she works much better with Tsubasa 2. I genuinely can't see anything romantic between her and Kotori or Umi and 3. I view their dynamic as Honoka + Kotori and Umi so it doesn't feel like she's being "left out" by shipping KotoUmi)

Hmmm ... I went back and watched episode 1 again; I can see what you mean, except that the whole conversation between them was all about Honoka, so I guess it's a little hard (for me) to think of that as a shipping moment! :-) Although the doujins do at times cater to the notion of KotoUmi sprouting from mutual longing for Honoka. Which, sounds kinda like your "Honoka +" dynamic, if I'm interpreting it right.

I do like HonoTsuba also - that's a delicious dynamic in many ways; it's just that there is undoubtedly something special in both the HonoKoto and HonoUmi bond. Note how at the end of season 1 Umi herself didn't even try to keep Kotori from leaving, instead telling Honoka that there was only one person who could do that, the person she hoped would tell her not to go. Plus the "crying scene" near the end of Season 2, with Kotori leaning her head on Honoka's shoulder was really cute. And I don't know if you watched the movie, but I liked the way Umi got so angry with Honoka when she went missing for a bit, because she was worried sick, with Kotori noting how much Umi loved Honoka. Again, that's all fundamentally stuff in "dear friend love" territory, but that's like most everything else.

However, in defense of the Honoka + KotoUmi dynamic, Umi's slap seemed to be indicitave of holding Honoka to a higher standard than Kotori or anyone else, like she expected her to remain the inspirational dynamo she always was despite being crushed inside (which is why I hated it, because I felt like that was a moment for her friends to acknowledge that Honoka was worthy of sympathy as a person rather than to be treated like a hero who let everyone down by being human). Plus, Kotori's struggle to actually talk to Honoka about leaving, when she had no problem going to Umi ... I suppose this does perhaps jibe with an idea of Umi and Kotori almost thinking of Honoka as this whirlwind moving too fast to really ever be in sync with, like she'd always be just beyond them, and they'd always be following her lead and struggling just to keep up.

I'm kind of motivated now to go back and re-watch SIP to pay attention to Honoka's individual interactions with people.