What Does the Fox Say by Team Gaji.

Personally wish they went the other way with the ending, but it's a really beautiful story.

You know, out of all the sites I've been, this is the most prominent one where readers actually call out Sumin for her shitty behavior and asked the really hard questions. Anywhere else, you criticise their favorite character and you would have these snowflakes jumping down your throat, lol

Even after the story has ended, I never got the impression she learnt her life lesson and has changed for the better. She's still an incredibly selfish person as evident of Will. The only difference compared to the past, she now has an extreme doormat for a girlfriend who will let her do whatever she wishes without being challenged. I mean damn her, I wish I had a partner who lets me take her for granted all the time :D

I think it's because the followers of Sumin love her for her bad girl and womanizing look, they insert themselves into her.
And I agree that she never stopped being her selfish self. But she now she has an angelic girlfriend who forgives a cheating after three weeks and they reconcile with rough sex. Even that scene has quite a misplaced connotation for Sungji's character, that would be called reconnection sex. That's why Sungji tells her that he wants to mark her name on hers, a kind of erasing Seju's traces from her. And as you can see, Sumin didn't even seem to enjoy it.

Remember that the attraction of the angelic blonde begins with Sumin's face, that's why she always wants to see his face during sex.

Hence why I consider Sumin and Sungji relationship to be so shallow. Let's be honest, the blondie didn't exactly fall for her precious team leader because she had the most charming personality ever (that girl has zero charisma). It was as she admitted in the early chapters, because of her good looks. In other words, if she wasn't physically attractive, Sungji wouldn't have bothered giving her a second look lol.

I spat out my drink when you said Sumin has zero charisma. lol. And I agree with what you've said.

It’s a profound error on the part of the author that anyone in the world is talking in positive terms about the possibility of Sumin and Seju “saving their relationship.” That was not, and was never going to be, Seju’s role in this story. The story where Sumin and Seju get back together is a completely different story than the author was ever telling in this series.

Whatever the reason the creators spent far too much time and space developing Seju’s character and backstory (whether Seju was just more interesting to write about, or if they got off on the sex scenes, or whatever), they doomed the series to an unsatisfactory ending for one or more big segments of the audience—Seju fans are still bemoaning her fate, and fans of the OTP know the MCs got shortchanged in their characterization by the excessive attention given to what is, in the end, a secondary character.

I think you've misunderstood me, but that's probably my fault, because I wasn't clear. Let me explain. I wanted Sumin and Seju to be together. However, I acknowledge that Gaji's intent from the beginning was to make Sumin fall in love and end with Sungji (in an interview, they said they knew the ending from the beginning) I think you've misclassified that Seju was a "secondary character"; she is integral to the plot. But, that's neither here nor there. Now, I don't care about that. It doesn't matter to me what Gaji's intention was or what they felt was good. I mean, when I read other texts, even canonical ones, I still question the author's motives, as is everyone's right. As a segue, read Roland Barthes essay on 'the death of the author' if anyone's interested about this topic further.

If you go to the previous page, I state my problem is they spent all this time lavishing all this prelapsarian detail... for what? For what? Because all it did was made me think (and still remain thinking) that this relationship was salvageable and could invoke forgiveness (but as Neurotech pointed out, this is impossible for such an inward thinking character). There was nothing wrong with Seju - she made a mistake, she tried to put forward copious amounts of recompense and it still wasn't enough (which tells me Sumin has some major issues still unresolved).

I don't really much care for this circuitous argument that they were "toxic". I think they were two women in emotional gridlock desperate for love and it came outwardly as revenge because they struggle to express. And Seju was frightened of losing Sumin at all, so she carried on the broken glasses sex-focused relationship, because she felt it was enough.

I just want to say that I've read more of this forum, reading opinions that Seju and Sumin should not have ended up together and it was the right decision to move on to other people. Okay, fine. But, I am resolved to say otherwise. I know what the ending is, but that doesn't mean I can't dispute it.

I just wanted someone to tell Sumin that life doesn't revolve around her and that she needed some real help to address her cavalcade of emotional issues, because all she did throughout was hide behind casual sex and retained her (irrational) consuming hatred of a woman who loved her. I realise these are two complex women with deep emotional ties, and that's why people think they shouldn't be together ("they're toxic"). I've said this before, but I just wish that there was more of an attempt as opposed to their circuitous merry-go-round: I hate you, let's have sex, I'm seeing someone new. And Seju accepts it, because she thinks she needs Sumin for love.

You know, out of all the sites I've been, this is the most prominent one where readers actually call out Sumin for her shitty behavior and asked the really hard questions. Anywhere else, you criticise their favorite character and you would have these snowflakes jumping down your throat, lol

Even after the story has ended, I never got the impression she learnt her life lesson and has changed for the better. She's still an incredibly selfish person as evident of Will. The only difference compared to the past, she now has an extreme doormat for a girlfriend who will let her do whatever she wishes without being challenged. I mean damn her, I wish I had a partner who lets me take her for granted all the time :D

I think it's because the followers of Sumin love her for her bad girl and womanizing look, they insert themselves into her.
And I agree that she never stopped being her selfish self. But she now she has an angelic girlfriend who forgives a cheating after three weeks and they reconcile with rough sex. Even that scene has quite a misplaced connotation for Sungji's character, that would be called reconnection sex. That's why Sungji tells her that he wants to mark her name on hers, a kind of erasing Seju's traces from her. And as you can see, Sumin didn't even seem to enjoy it.

Remember that the attraction of the angelic blonde begins with Sumin's face, that's why she always wants to see his face during sex.

"I'm scared."

Were you though?

That was my issue to begin with - the main couple is an insecure lady with trust issues and some some blonde girl who comes onto the scene and airbrushes Seju's history??? That decade long ribbon can suddenly be cut by a sweet young lady, who shows some affection? Personally, it didn't make sense to me.

I can honestly say Sungji uses her charm and sweetness to manipulate Sumin's behaviour and I think it's a reaction to her own insecurities, so she doubles down.

I agree, it does fall apart and I have the same question in my head. Why bother putting in all those flashbacks to those happier, sweeter, halcyon days? What was the point? Because Seju is discarded like an old Persian rug to an auction in Jeju Island. And your subsequent questions are what creates that intense, romantic, intricate relationship. I regret they didn't pursue their relationship further, even if they were still to break up in the end, that doesn't matter. It was the fact the loose ends existed.

To be honest, my reading of Sumin is that she is (strangely) happy to have her insecurities as long as she has a Sungji figure to placate her. See even Seju, who Sumin kept coming back to have sex with, with this "Sumin for life, best girlfriend ever, I still love you no matter what" mantra / refrain

Neurotech - I've read the story twice. I never connected chapter 10 to her Seju's.. shall we say complete use of sexual organs, so I'm grateful to you for flagging that point of detail by nora89. Well, it never occurred to me that she is bisexual, even after I saw them in bed (I just assumed it was a stupid mistake, nothing more). To be honest, I am now uncertain about whether the whole thing took place now after your telling me this. I'll have to cogitate and go back to the story later.

That philosophy can be applied to any story or drama - writers can't please every single person on the planet. I think, I could be wrong or I misremembered what I read, but the writer said at the beginning they knew the ending would be Sungji and Sumin (the premise started off between a blonde and dark-haired girl finding love or something - if I can, I'll try to dig up the reference). Regardless, I know many writers who were influenced by their fans, and it never ends well.

Each person draws their own conclusion from the story. I advise you to read the whole thread, although it is long but some users dissected the whole plot very well and you can perceive the amount of changes and traps that the story had until the end.
I already said what I had to say, the story was never about healing, because I did not perceive it, it is a story with double standards, written by someone who lacks much sensitivity to really understand forgiveness and move on. examine the problems especially the horrible behavior of Sumin. However, they tell you that moving forward is getting a partner who does not point out your flaws, who does not ask, who says yes to all of your shit.

If I have time, I'll try to check out the whole forum - I generally enjoy reading other people's analysis. But I jut read the most recent 15 pages and someone started castigating people who like Seju as Japanese soldiers who die for their queen or something like that. lol. "War's over, follks". Okay, but I still like her. Haha. And, just to reinforce what you’re saying, it’s a matter of indifference to me who likes who, whether people agree with the ending or not, what characters people like, how people analyse the story, I’m just here to have some debate and conversation while giving my opinion. If people disagree with anything I’m saying, cool, let’s discuss.

I have to say, I actually never saw it from that perspective, it's quite interesting the way you articulated it. I think the writer could have understood the complexities of emotion especially in the situation both of them were in. Which is why I wholeheartedly agree with you that forgiveness should have been magnified more as a theme. But no. Instead, the “solution” was to cart them both off to other people without addressing their problems. Yes, Do Won and Sungji were both very nice people, but my problem is that they placated too much to Sumin and Seju (“yes women”). I think what kind of hurts more is that Gaji had a great premise, but they fractured it.
Sumin’s lack of response in terms of Seju’s responsibility for her parents’ demise unfortunately led Seju out of the door, which catalysed her fears of being alone. Just to be clear (I’ve already said this on the previous page), I do not condone Seju’s infidelity, I just understood why she did it. Sumin narrowly thought and took for granted that Seju would wait forever.

Cassandra, I didn't mean to direct my final remark towards you specifically! I just meant things can get very passionate on the forum as people get very combative in terms of who they ship and stan. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by saying I like Seju and would have preferred her to end up with Sumin, but we've already established this. lol.

I like what you're saying about the ending and giving up the past for brighter futures. But there are examples where there are toxic couples who work past their muddiness. Is a relationship so toxic that it can't work out? If it were the case that Sumin or Seju were being physically or sexually violent to each other (I'm not counting their rough sex, since it was consensual), then I would think they need to depart from each other.

I believe that as well about Sumin behaving like a man. It's very strange. It's like she's trying to desensitise herself to feel emotion because she's afraid of feeling love?? Does that even make sense?! Lol. And I agree with you - I liked the young Sumin as well! I thought she was a sweet young woman, unfortunately all that brightness died due to her circumstances.

I've mentioned this earlier, but Seju, I think, behaves desperate, because she wants love and she comes from a place where she did not have love to give or get it from anyone. On the surface, it does seem outwardly ridiculous, but I think when you analyse her situation, it's entirely plausible. Psychologically, she wanted this person to give love to her and get love back. However, I don't want to defend her completely: while I think she is the best character in this manga, I thought she was pretty pathetic continuing to have sex with a woman who constantly went out with other women instead of actually addressing the problems in this relationship. There could have been real progress made. I don't want to suggest something like counselling or therapy, but simply talking or pushing through the pain together would have helped. Just my two cents.

I'm totally agree and happy to share with you. Seju is the best character but there are so many just hate her and think that she deserves that punishment from Sumin. I mean I can't imagine Seju gotta suffer for 10 years and it's becomes a habit and numb. For me, I can't accept the person I love to have sex with others consistently. I think Sumin did that to let Seju suffer and to eventually let go of her volunteering at first because she knows Seju's toxic brother will hurt her if Seju is miserable. But I can't belive a smart woman like Seju is willing to let Sumin to sexually and verbally abuse her for so many years. There are sex scenes between them that I feel really irritated and can't believe Seju can tolerate to that extend. I think not many toxic relationship can be work out and it depends on the level of hurt and individuals perception. The scar in Sumin's heart and body is too deep and I can understand even she forgive Seju but she will never forget the incidents that happened to her. Instead of getting back with Seju and work for their future. She chose to start a new relationship with clean and pure love, That's why she fall in love with Sungji and ultimately let go of Seju easily. I mean if Sungji is not pretty, I don't think Sumin will fall in love with her. Lol. In Sumin's mind she is happy that she finally found someone who is younger and prettier than Seju and heal her. She wanna create happy moments with Sungji in the future rather than drilling down to the past memories. If Seju has realised and truly understand Sumin, she should let go of Sumin earlier and suffered less. Perhaps she may meet someone earlier and has her own family. Seju has urged for family love since young and I think if she has a daughter, her daughter will be as beautiful as her. Anyway, Do Won is a good person and fit Seju. Seju eventually move on and they are going to create happy moments for their future. The creator did mention that, Seju will start love and be able to love many things in her life.

For me, in my life, I would never want a relationship like this, and I don't want my partner to be unfaithful to me to hurt me for revenge reasons. However, I really like it in fiction worlds. lol. Something about the toxicity is compelling to read and watch. I'm going to repeat what I've said, because it answers your disbelief about Seju's intelligence / knowing better: desperation for love drives Seju. So, Seju absolutely did not care what Sumin did as long as she could be with her. People don't act rationally when they're crazy in love. What you've said about Sungji, I imagine, is exactly what Gaji envisioned for the characters. To depart from each other and move on to people who are healthy and patient and kind. And not for one moment do I hate Do Won or Sungji, they are really good women; I just think if this was the route to go down, make them interesting was my only point. Although, I'm slightly contradicting myself here… because if they were complex, they'd have to have a dark past or an attribute that makes them repulsive. They were very benign and that was my issue - where was the complexity? where was the interest? It just wasn’t there for me. But that's the point, as you've said: it's so both Sumin and Seju could find real happiness. I think if Seju had a daughter, she would raise her very well and give her lots of love and joy as opposed to the rotten and derelict childhood she had.

Cassandra, I didn't mean to direct my final remark towards you specifically! I just meant things can get very passionate on the forum as people get very combative in terms of who they ship and stan. I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by saying I like Seju and would have preferred her to end up with Sumin, but we've already established this. lol.

I like what you're saying about the ending and giving up the past for brighter futures. But there are examples where there are toxic couples who work past their muddiness. Is a relationship so toxic that it can't work out? If it were the case that Sumin or Seju were being physically or sexually violent to each other (I'm not counting their rough sex, since it was consensual), then I would think they need to depart from each other.

I believe that as well about Sumin behaving like a man. It's very strange. It's like she's trying to desensitise herself to feel emotion because she's afraid of feeling love?? Does that even make sense?! Lol. And I agree with you - I liked the young Sumin as well! I thought she was a sweet young woman, unfortunately all that brightness died due to her circumstances.

I've mentioned this earlier, but Seju, I think, behaves desperate, because she wants love and she comes from a place where she did not have love to give or get it from anyone. On the surface, it does seem outwardly ridiculous, but I think when you analyse her situation, it's entirely plausible. Psychologically, she wanted this person to give love to her and get love back. However, I don't want to defend her completely: while I think she is the best character in this manga, I thought she was pretty pathetic continuing to have sex with a woman who constantly went out with other women instead of actually addressing the problems in this relationship. There could have been real progress made. I don't want to suggest something like counselling or therapy, but simply talking or pushing through the pain together would have helped. Just my two cents.

Even if I was a little late to the discussion, I just finished this story this year LOL

I liked some arguments without too much bias or favoritism and pointing out the problems of configuration and continuity of the story. Seju is by far the best character, Sumin the worst, the blonde never felt her as a main character, there was a lot about her that confused me and sometimes her behavior left me analyzing what was real and what was not with her personality.

And I agree that the story began its descent into shit from chapter 50. I felt cheated because I really came to think that this was really a story about understanding, addressing your insecurities, working on them, and seeking forgiveness. Seju and Sumin's relationship had all the potential to have gone in the right direction because there were subtle hints that they loved each other despite all the accumulation of contempt, revenge, and obsession with the past. One of the many problems the story had was that the realistic narrative became eccentrically exaggerated.

I couldn't agree more, Neurotech. I think Gaji missed out on a lot with their relationship, because as you pointed out, there was so much depth. I think the blonde girl was a bit strange for me, because she was so simple - I mean in the sense where there was no complexity or nuance to her character. There was nothing wrong with her, and that's the point, which is what made her uninteresting to me.

And I understand that they did find new partners and are happy in their new relationships, but for me personally, I would have preferred it if Sumin and Seju were together.

Nah, Sumin and Seju should never get back together. Call me old-fashioned but if someone cheated on me, I would never look at them the same way ever again and pretend we still love each other. The moment Seju betrayed Sumin's trust by sleeping with that bartender man, was the final nail in the coffin. But having said that, I can't wrap my head around Sungji who clearly caught her precious team leader getting it on with her ex and still wants to jump back into bed with her. She's either an angel herself or just the biggest fool ever. I'm leaning more to the latter lol.

So Young, I absolutely agree with you in terms of condemning Seju's infidelity. I think it was stupid and utterly selfish, and I really don't like her for doing it. I'm not going to give her the excuse of her inebriation. She should have controlled herself - she's an adult.
If we have a look at the situation though, she came from a place where she was desperate for love and she wanted Sumin to get a hold of herself. She watched her lover suffer for days, it took a toll. So, while I castigate her misdeed, I understand where it comes from. Think of any drama or fiction, writers want you to understand people are human and do bad things, not necessarily that they are inherently evil. Look at her subsequent actions: she stopped drinking, she felt guilty, she tried to make it up to Sumin, and she didn't stop her love.

I think Sungji was just head over heels! She really wanted to be with Sumin, so it would be easy to forgive her for even something like murder... I wouldn't put that past her character. lol. :)

No doubt Seju has tried to redeem her mistake and continuing to love Sumin for that 10 years but it's pointless because Sumin doesn't want the same way, she wanna cut it off from Seju after the breakup. I think Seju should just give up after 5 years of all the abuse sex from Sumin but she just can't let go and willing to suffer, this is just not logic as the creator projected that she is smart and independent woman. Sumin is someone who is quite traditional, she pay tribute to her parents on their anniversary but Seju can never accompany her to do that and also Sumin can't forget Seju for cheating on her with a man. So, it's obvious she doesn't want a relationship with Seju anymore even Seju is so desperate but Sumin doesn't care! So, when the prettier and younger Sungji comes into her life, she can easily move on with her. She finds someone who she can share her life with forever and that person is Sungji not Seju caused Sumin is kinda old fashion, she will never be able to trust Seju after she saw her cuddled with a man in bed. Sumin is just the lucky one caused no matter what she did, both Sungji and Seju will still love her. Sumin is definitely the writer's favourite. However, the writer is finally good enough to let Do Won to come to rescue Seju. At least Seju doesn't has to spend the rest of her life without love, lonely and miserable. Sumin get to move on and get married with Sungji who can accompany her on her parents' anniversary.

Cassandra, I agree with you on the fact they both get happy endings and rightly so; it shows Gaji didn't think of them as people who deserved loneliness because of their respective flaws. And you're right - that heartbreaking betrayal can't be forgotten by Sumin, so it's no surprise that she thinks it can't be repaired. I get that. And that's all very well. My only point of contention is that this could have been a really complex story with a more intricate plot of delving into the problems of this couple. Instead, they went with the solution as finding two different people, and breaking apart. Okay.

One sentence you write is extremely apt: "Sumin is just the lucky one caused no matter what she did, both Sungji and Seju will still love her." I never understood this from either character, until I analysed that they are two very insecure women desperate for love. Sumin fills the void perfectly for them where no other woman (or man) does not.

I've actually been reading old posts on this forum, and I just want to clarify that I recognise that Seju and Sumin are not together and they are with new people. That's fine. I'm just expressing an opinion that my preference would have been this way, not that way. And I know my opinion will not change anything. Please treat me well! :)

Even if I was a little late to the discussion, I just finished this story this year LOL

I liked some arguments without too much bias or favoritism and pointing out the problems of configuration and continuity of the story. Seju is by far the best character, Sumin the worst, the blonde never felt her as a main character, there was a lot about her that confused me and sometimes her behavior left me analyzing what was real and what was not with her personality.

And I agree that the story began its descent into shit from chapter 50. I felt cheated because I really came to think that this was really a story about understanding, addressing your insecurities, working on them, and seeking forgiveness. Seju and Sumin's relationship had all the potential to have gone in the right direction because there were subtle hints that they loved each other despite all the accumulation of contempt, revenge, and obsession with the past. One of the many problems the story had was that the realistic narrative became eccentrically exaggerated.

I couldn't agree more, Neurotech. I think Gaji missed out on a lot with their relationship, because as you pointed out, there was so much depth. I think the blonde girl was a bit strange for me, because she was so simple - I mean in the sense where there was no complexity or nuance to her character. There was nothing wrong with her, and that's the point, which is what made her uninteresting to me.

And I understand that they did find new partners and are happy in their new relationships, but for me personally, I would have preferred it if Sumin and Seju were together.

Nah, Sumin and Seju should never get back together. Call me old-fashioned but if someone cheated on me, I would never look at them the same way ever again and pretend we still love each other. The moment Seju betrayed Sumin's trust by sleeping with that bartender man, was the final nail in the coffin. But having said that, I can't wrap my head around Sungji who clearly caught her precious team leader getting it on with her ex and still wants to jump back into bed with her. She's either an angel herself or just the biggest fool ever. I'm leaning more to the latter lol.

So Young, I absolutely agree with you in terms of condemning Seju's infidelity. I think it was stupid and utterly selfish, and I really don't like her for doing it. I'm not going to give her the excuse of her inebriation. She should have controlled herself - she's an adult.
If we have a look at the situation though, she came from a place where she was desperate for love and she wanted Sumin to get a hold of herself. She watched her lover suffer for days, it took a toll. So, while I castigate her misdeed, I understand where it comes from. Think of any drama or fiction, writers want you to understand people are human and do bad things, not necessarily that they are inherently evil. Look at her subsequent actions: she stopped drinking, she felt guilty, she tried to make it up to Sumin, and she didn't stop her love.

I think Sungji was just head over heels! She really wanted to be with Sumin, so it would be easy to forgive her for even something like murder... I wouldn't put that past her character. lol. :)

The ending is good to convey a message of mature true love and moving on! What seju and Sumin has in the past was puppy love. Sumin basically was obsessed and attracted by Seju's beauty while Seju seeking for love as she can't get it from her family. They both look matching from the appearance but not character wise. That's why their love can't last long once trauma happened. Seju's love is possessive and Sumin is weak. Sumin just wanna cut ties from Seju because she knows she can't forget Seju's mistake and she wants to forget her tragic past. At least for Sumin there's no more love feelings towards Seju after they break up, she just wanna take revenge on Seju to release her pain. I mean how could you tormented a person for 10 years if you still love that person. Then the beautiful and young Sungji came into Sumin's life, Sumin fall in love her caused Sumin just can't resist beauty and Sungji is a lot younger than Seju. Sumin never considered to get back to Seju at all, she just treat Seju as a normal friend caused they know each other for long. Sumin finally found someone who can accompany her to go her parents yard on their anniversary which Seju can't do. Sumin has confidence in Sungji and truly fall in love with her. She is a better person while she is with Sungji. Sumin move on very fast after she met Sungju but Seju is stubborn perhaps due to her family background and insecurity. Anyway, it's good that they both move on in the end. Do Won came to Seju's rescue. Do Won is strong and patience enough to heal Seju's insecurity. They both fit each other in term of physical and character wise.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think their relationship was rocky from the beginning because of their context: Seju coming from a family who did not love her, which in turn made it difficult for her to know how to give love. Sumin losing both her parents, being beaten up by Seju's brother, the isolation. They both came from difficult places, which is what made them toxic to each other. I think it could have been built further in terms of rectification if the writers wanted them to be together, but alas, it was not to be.

Even if I was a little late to the discussion, I just finished this story this year LOL

I liked some arguments without too much bias or favoritism and pointing out the problems of configuration and continuity of the story. Seju is by far the best character, Sumin the worst, the blonde never felt her as a main character, there was a lot about her that confused me and sometimes her behavior left me analyzing what was real and what was not with her personality.

And I agree that the story began its descent into shit from chapter 50. I felt cheated because I really came to think that this was really a story about understanding, addressing your insecurities, working on them, and seeking forgiveness. Seju and Sumin's relationship had all the potential to have gone in the right direction because there were subtle hints that they loved each other despite all the accumulation of contempt, revenge, and obsession with the past. One of the many problems the story had was that the realistic narrative became eccentrically exaggerated.

I couldn't agree more, Neurotech. I think Gaji missed out on a lot with their relationship, because as you pointed out, there was so much depth. I think the blonde girl was a bit strange for me, because she was so simple - I mean in the sense where there was no complexity or nuance to her character. There was nothing wrong with her, and that's the point, which is what made her uninteresting to me.

And I understand that they did find new partners and are happy in their new relationships, but for me personally, I would have preferred it if Sumin and Seju were together.