To take care of her so she can keep being shut-in and nobody learns about her to disgrace family.

My guess is the mother-in-law thinks having Ayano around will act as an example that motivates the youngest daughter to get out of the house/pursue a career/live up to expectations.

I like how we had two completely opposite explanations just immediately brought up for the same thing.

Oh well, I have to say I DO appreciate the writing (and translating) for the shitty mom passive-aggressiveness, bringing up the dad's injury just exactly when it'd be most effective.

I am really not sure if I get all the significance of what's going on with the sister-in-law. Why would them moving back help a shut-in sister?

I'm not sure anything would dry me up faster than someone feeling like I needed their help crossing the street.

I actually find it kind of hilarious that at the gayest gym in the world, where everyone is super goddamn gay, this manga still has characters perplexed by gayness.

I think the protagonists' sexual tension has somehow psychically infected everyone around them.

Why is the author working so hard to make us want Nanami to get together with her cute, annoying coworker!!? The cute annoying coworker is adorable!

I meaannnnn I gettt ittttt, the coworker only sees Nanami's facade, whereas the roommate just innately and immediately accepts Nanami's country-fried side. But c'mon, she's so adorable!

(on a side note I'm gettin' a little tired of the "what are these feelings??" trope, which does not really fit a manga like this... though I suppose being bad at introspection does fit that coworker pretty well)

karp posted:

It seems very obvious to me that Kotooka and Nadeshiko end up together, so I'm always really confused when I see people say this story doesn't have yuri or whatever. It just doesn't have yuri for the POV character in chapter 1, which is kind of a weird standard.

The main character is really Kotooka... it's a coming out story for her. She's the gayest of the three.

Is just your average yuri story where the main protagonist finds a boyfriend and her brother finds a boyfriend too and even in the special extra chapter, is about the brother..... Who later gets his own manga.

Classic

Also "Very obvious" that's bold

Is it not very obvious to you?

Also, Tsukasa isn't the main character. There are three protagonists, all meant to be equal. Tsukasa's just the one we start with. And she's the least gay of the three. Kotooka's the most interesting character; her journey is the one worth reading about.

It seems very obvious to me that Kotooka and Nadeshiko end up together, so I'm always really confused when I see people say this story doesn't have yuri or whatever. It just doesn't have yuri for the POV character in chapter 1, which is kind of a weird standard.

The main character is really Kotooka... it's a coming out story for her. She's the gayest of the three.

I do not want to imply I am ungrateful to the translators, but a lot of the lines in this don't make any sense.

Or rather, that's a girl, right?

Lean too heavily into realism and you develop a sort of dreary feeling that isn't very fun to read for me.

It sounds like you, too, have read Anton Chekhov.

Chekhov is hilarious and it would absolutely never occur to me anyone would think otherwise, if people didn't say so.

This dude's great.

God, what a relief to see this sort of manga, where it's awkward and complicated but at the end of the day people actually say out loud what they're feeling.

I have no idea what point you're actually trying to make.

This I believe.

Given your premises about “creepiness” and your assumptions about the author’s intentions and what the author “should” be doing, it’s clear that the more I attempt to make the point, the less intelligible it will be.

I’d say “enjoy,” but . . .

Why didn't you clarify? There were some pretty specific things I asked about that I didn't understand. How was this response meant to be helpful?

While it’s sometimes fun as a sort of parlor game to slip into the mindset of the characters in a story and to discuss them as real people, ultimately I care about storytelling, not moralizing, and I see no point in scolding imaginary persons for their failures to live up to my, or anyone else’s, conception of proper behavior.

....no one's doing this, tho? I, for one, am criticizing the AUTHOR for the themes, not the characters as if they were real.

last edited at Oct 6, 2019 12:12AM

I mean... if your point is that yuri as a genre often has lots of tropes that are creepy when you think about them for five seconds, I totally agree with you.

No, my point is that “creepy is as creepy does.” You seem to regard these tropes as having an independent existence and defined significance outside of the context of their specific deployment in a given story.

Sure, it’s possible to paraphrase or to imagine hypothetical changes to almost any story that will change its tone or thematic import. That doesn’t necessarily make for a convincing reading of any particular story, however.

It's MORE creepy if it's portrayed as sweet and good, not less. That's kinda all that's creepy about it! If this story was about questioning or deconstructing all this stuff, it'd be way less of a problem.

Once again, you assume this behavior (or rather, your particular re-interpretation/rephrasing of it) has an innate value separate from any particular manifestation or depiction of it, so of course you can’t come to any other conclusion than you do.

It’s not how I read texts, because I don’t see it as a very useful or enlightening way to do it. So it seems our mileage certainly does vary.

I legit don't know what this means. Can you be more concrete? What behavior do you mean, specifically? I actually can't see how this is a response to what I said at all. I'm talking a LOT about the depiction, and not so much about the behavior itself... my criticisms are of the whole situation the author keeps repeatedly creating, and Kase's actions WITHIN THAT.

Kase saying the thing about the yukata is creepier than it otherwise would be because of how the author keeps making Yamada a helpless baby who needs to get rescued. It seems likely the author actually believes that Yamada NEEDS her clothing choices regulated by Kase: she really WOULD get harassed by dudes (and need to get rescued again). And that's a shitty thing to put in your story just straight out with no commentary or criticism

Could you say what exactly you mean by "the particular manifestation or depiction of it?" In this specific case. Is it that Yamada isn't bothered by Kase's behavior? Because that doesn't help... it's not a dynamic they've worked out together through communication; the author just keeps making it happen through circumstance. If this was some kind of roleplay thing they'd worked out, where Yamada is a giant baby who falls down and Kase swoops in to protect her from the evil corrupting influences of the world and then they go have lots of sex, that'd be fine. (In fact, this is precisely the way to improve this manga; these same characters struggling to perform their elaborate sex roleplay would be hilarious.)

Is it that this manga just has a cheerful, positive tone? Again, the tone makes it worse, because it's presenting these things unquestioningly. I have no idea what point you're actually trying to make.

This is more off on a limb, but am I seriously the only person who strongly suspects this whole dynamic is, like... the entire reason this thing is being written? Kase is very very weirdly preoccupied by her sexual attraction to Yamada (dude: just fuck her), as if such lustful thoughts will sully her pure innocent girlfriend. And meanwhile, Yamada keeps acting like a five year-old: she's so innocent she can't take care of herself and so Kase needs to step in. Yamada's innocence is, like... a THING, here.

I mean... if your point is that yuri as a genre often has lots of tropes that are creepy when you think about them for five seconds, I totally agree with you.

No, my point is that “creepy is as creepy does.” You seem to regard these tropes as having an independent existence and defined significance outside of the context of their specific deployment in a given story.

Sure, it’s possible to paraphrase or to imagine hypothetical changes to almost any story that will change its tone or thematic import. That doesn’t necessarily make for a convincing reading of any particular story, however.

It's MORE creepy if it's portrayed as sweet and good, not less. That's kinda all that's creepy about it! If this story was about questioning or deconstructing all this stuff, it'd be way less of a problem.

I know it's a sweet, light manga. I know the author intends it all to be cute and wonderful. That's the whole point.
Yamada's a grown woman portrayed as helpless at everything, and she's shown to be repeatedly in need of Kase's help and protection (none of which she's ever shown asking for: Kase just provides it because she's hyperprotective). That's screwed up. Yamada's never unhappy about it? Yeah, I know: it's screwed up that it's written that way. Their dynamic is based on Kase's controlling instincts being good and right, because Yamada's a tiny child whose innocence must be preserved, and because the author clearly enjoys that exact fantasy.

I mean seriously, we have actually seen people say here in this very exact thread that Kase trying to control what Yamada wears is justified (and actually cute!) because Kase just finds Yamada so sexy and wonderful. That is in so many words precisely something people say to defend abusive partners. I am not saying Kase is abusive, but you should seriously start raising eyebrows about the author if people start using exactly the same language to defend her that's used to defend abusive partners. Having a screwed-up relationship based around fulfilling unhealthy fantasies, and then portraying it as sweet and nice, is worse because it causes people to interpret the screwed-up relationship positively.

last edited at Oct 4, 2019 7:43PM

It’s true—the unexpected Kase rescue is one of the repeated tropes of the series. The negative reading you prefer to put on it depends on a great deal of imagining that this series isn’t this series but some other, more realistic and psychologically toxic series.

Actually the same could be said for almost any series you can think of—change the premises, change the art style, put a different spin on the expressions and body language, and you can make YagaKimi, Hana ni Arashi, or Isn’t the Moon Beautiful? into horrifying cautionary tales of dysfunctional relationships. So what?

I mean... if your point is that yuri as a genre often has lots of tropes that are creepy when you think about them for five seconds, I totally agree with you. The fact that authors often appear unaware they're replaying these tropes (or worse, as I suspect, is deliberately recreating the tropes because they like them) doesn't make things better.

Similarly, the author could have chosen to NOT portray Yamada as a tiny child who can't take care of herself, but instead, she puts on shoes that render her unable to walk. And again... Kase is there!

Sorry, now you’re just being ridiculous—it’s an inalterable law in Japan that the first time anyone wears geta to a fireworks festival they are required to injure their feet and need band-aids from a Good Samaritan. (Also unaccustomed high heels at an amusement park.)

OK like again, the author could have just... not included that trope? She didn't have to be wearing those shoes.

Yamada's foot thing means that Kase showed up out of nowhere and interjected herself unexpectedly into Yamada's night for her own good. See what I'm getting at? Yamada was happy Kase showed up (of course she was, because it's the point of the manga), but even if she hadn't been, Kase giving her a piggy-back ride was the solution to her unrelated problem.

Also seriously did the authors really try to portray her going two feet away to talk to her friends for like thirty seconds as a terrible moment where Yamada was forlorn and abandoned and Kase needed to rush in and rescue her?

No, as a matter of fact the author did not do that. Yamada wasn't "forlorn and abandoned," she simply had a moment alone to reflect that, even though she had been looking forward to going to the fireworks and everything was going along smoothly enough, she was actually not having as much fun as she expected because she missed her girlfriend.

(This is me at pretty much every major social event of my youth and young adulthood (minus the girlfriend in the picture)--get psyched up to go and then at some point realizing it wasn't as much fun as I'd hoped.)

This chapter is the familiar dynamic of the series--Kase came because she wanted to be with Yamada (it is her own hometown, too, of course), then she's blown away by how adorable Yamada is in her yukata, and then her (over-) protective instinct kicks in.

It's true that the story you made up in your head is pretty creepy, though.

EDIT: And once again, it's true, as always--if this story were really different, it would be different.

The author makes choices and those choices show up in the story though?

The author chose to create that moment: Yamada alone, feeling awkward and sad, not expecting Kase to show up. Then... angels sing Kase is there! It is very clearly a manufactured "rescue" scenario. Kase could have shown up at any time. She could have gotten through on the phone. They could have discussed meeting first. Instead, the social moment was created, and Kase showed up right then.

Similarly, the author could have chosen to NOT portray Yamada as a tiny child who can't take care of herself, but instead, she puts on shoes that render her unable to walk. And again... Kase is there!

THIS is the context for Kase's "A creepy man will hit on you!" thing. This is a world that constantly puts Yamada in situations where she's helpless and bereft (but also aren't ever too threatening, because that would wreck the mood), and then Kase runs in and rescues her.

This, with any degree of realism, is a horrible dynamic. Yamada never expresses her needs, and she can't take care of herself, and Kase is just expected to know and show up suddenly when she's needed. And people here are saying something very close to "Oh, Kase just loves Yamada so much and is so attracted to her, she feels like she needs to hold her close and keep her away from men!" and holllyyyyy shit that's exactly terrifying.

So, like, we could have a functional pair of girlfriends who communicate with one another... or, we could have the author's obvious fantasy of a knight rushing in to save the helpless damsel over and over and over again.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/yamada_to_kase_san_ch12#16
You are blatantly wrong.

Oh, give me a thousand breaks; she came because of Yamada and we all know it.

I mean... yeah. She came to see the fireworks with Yamada. That was not the thing you were wrong about.
You assume she came to protect Yamada, even though there is not a single hint for this in the entire chapter. She only makes a remark at the end that she was worried about Yamada in a Yukata, but she doesn't give it as a reason for coming here. She knew that Yamada was out with Miwachi and she usually doesn't beat around the bush with this stuff.

I would even make a case that the entire last 2 pages weren't actually Kase's honest thoughts. I think she was just embarassed about her own sexual desires going overboard when Yamada dresses this way and used skeevy guys as an excuse to reduce the danger of herself being so conscious of it next time.

Her asides WEREN'T her actual thoughts, but what she says when awkwardly explaining her presence to an acquaintance is?

(also holy damn that is a seriously screwed-up way to deal with your own sexual desires, even if you're right)

Mikawa is the real hero of this story. She handles getting unexpectedly turned into a third wheel with a night out with her best friend very gracefully.

Also seriously did the authors really try to portray her going two feet away to talk to her friends for like thirty seconds as a terrible moment where Yamada was forlorn and abandoned and Kase needed to rush in and rescue her?

She was just feeling lonely without Kase, so it was more like a sign she felt empty without her.. because when you are in love it tends to feel like that. Mikawa is seriously a very good friend, but i don’t think the author tried to make her look bad.

My point is more trying to unconvincingly manufacture a "Kase is awesome and will rescue me!" moment while also trying to have nothing particularly bad going on.

Goddddd this is like such basic bad relationship shit, too. Don't worry, kids, if you have a brief moment where you're apart from your girlfriend and feel lonely, it'll be okay! She'll have dropped everything in her life and rushed over to save you before you even knew you needed it! Communication is for people whose girlfriends don't love them enough to always be hovering nearby ready to swoop in and rescue them!

This exact same story and dialogue, with a different art style, would be taut melodrama about a toxic relationship.

God, I honestly cannot understand anyone not finding it the creepiest thing in the world that Kase came because Yamada was wearing a yukata and therefore had to be protected, and not because she just wanted to see her girlfriend for a nice night. In any other story, that'd be an ominous sign of darkness to come. Here, it's about, "If a gross old man hits on Yamada at a festival in Tokyo, it'll risk chipping away at her sweet innocent purity (and it's Kase's job to do that)."

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/yamada_to_kase_san_ch12#16
You are blatantly wrong.

Oh, give me a thousand breaks; she came because of Yamada and we all know it.

Mikawa is the real hero of this story. She handles getting unexpectedly turned into a third wheel with a night out with her best friend very gracefully.

Also seriously did the authors really try to portray her going two feet away to talk to her friends for like thirty seconds as a terrible moment where Yamada was forlorn and abandoned and Kase needed to rush in and rescue her?

God, this manga. Yamada wants Kase to be with her at the fireworks, so... instead of talking to her and seeing if the schedule would work out, she just silently goes and hopes real hard and magically Kase just shows up. And she ends up not beign able to walk, so if Kase hadn't shown up... what, she'd have to have been stretchered out?

I'm REALLY over this Magic Knight Saves Helpless Innocent Waif fantasy the author is continually re-enacting.

God, I honestly cannot understand anyone not finding it the creepiest thing in the world that Kase came because Yamada was wearing a yukata and therefore had to be protected, and not because she just wanted to see her girlfriend for a nice night. In any other story, that'd be an ominous sign of darkness to come. Here, it's about, "If a gross old man hits on Yamada at a festival in Tokyo, it'll risk chipping away at her sweet innocent purity (and it's Kase's job to do that)."

Although I love Uta's weird pigtail friend, her whole thing is baffling and has no clear thematic relationship with anything else. Is she ace? Is she just emotionally closed off? Like... legit a sociopath? I thought maybe the idea was that nontraditional, weird, idiosyncratic relationships are okay, so she and whatshername can make it work despite her inability to be in romantic love, but now I'm not sure.

Kuro isn't even remotely incapable of romantic love, just unwilling (by this point it's mellowed more to "merely reluctant" tho) due to acute disillusionement with the whole concept on account of her father; this was pretty clearly spelled out in the narrative. The last we saw those two Kuro was trying to adjust her comfort zone to accommodate Miyabi's desire for affectionate gestures and generally be more considerate of her while the latter was trying to adjust her relationship expectations to not push Kuro's limits too much (also turning into a blushing mess at the mention of -shock horror- kiss on the lips...).
Basically they're trying to reach a middle ground both are comfortable on.

I think the problem here then is that it's not really very believable. Plenty of people have messed up relationships with their fathers and then go on to have intimacy issues, but they don't act like Kuro. They don't have weird one-sided, platonic friendships that they let the other person call "a relationship." It'd just take a lot more to explain what on earth is going on.

And then again, thematically, what's this have to do with Uta and Kaoru?

(also shouldn't Kuro and Uta address how weird it is two lesbians became best friends just by coincidence?)

I'm mostly in a state of bemusement about people's reactions to this manga, again, because people appear to think a happy straight marriage is, like, a possibility of what the author is aiming at, and that's so blatantly not the case, I am lost about where anyone's getting it from.

I think the two biggest actual problems with the plot are:

Although I love Uta's weird pigtail friend, her whole thing is baffling and has no clear thematic relationship with anything else. Is she ace? Is she just emotionally closed off? Like... legit a sociopath? I thought maybe the idea was that nontraditional, weird, idiosyncratic relationships are okay, so she and whatshername can make it work despite her inability to be in romantic love, but now I'm not sure.

And the whole thing with Uta's parents is just one thing too many. I don't really care about her deal there.

For now I only read this manga for the ridiculous body proportions. It makes me laugh every time.

I'm pretty sure Kaoru just wears droopy clothes and pulls her skirts up real high.

(I actually love her outfits, actually)

last edited at Sep 29, 2019 12:48PM

How is Kaoru questioning her sexuality? AFAIK her thinking about Uta could just be her missing her little sister. How is the fact she is asking to have a baby with her cheating husband a sign she deep down suspects to be a raging lesbo? Lol it would have to be the biggest case of “reaction formation” psychological defense in manga history.

I don’t buy it.

The way she clenches her fist and focuses on her wedding ring every time she thinks about Uta? Chick's repressing, and it's all getting bundled together. She never addressed Uta's feelings, and she totally knows it, and she knows she'll be super unhappy unless she forces herself to. It's really important that she never gave Uta a yes or a no. (That doesn't mean she necessarily WILL end up realizing she's bi, but it's very clear this is something she has to address and hasn't yet.)

Are you expecting, like, "What was that just now?! Why was my heart pounding...?!" from this manga?