My thoughts on Hiver can basically be compared to my thoughts on Printemps. Messy. It lacks the polish and sharp wit of Automne in almost every regard. It was to be expected as it carried over the weakest part of Flowers, the big mystery around the Godess of Truth and Mayuri's disappearance, and drags it out till the stone is squeezed of every drop of water it ever held. It loses itself in filler chapters and side-quests that, while having served a character building purpose in Ete or Automne (and even to a lesser degree in Printemps), really are just pointless now that the story is so fixated on "solving" the mystery.

Suoh's obssession with following the detective plotline laid out before her instead of doing even a single logical thing to actually find and bring back Mayuri is pushed to its absurd extreme here. Frankly my most disliked parts of the Summer and Autumn chapters were those revolving around Suoh, which is sad, because I love her character so much. But she wastes infinite time being benched in those stories for minimal progress and then in the big finale she doesn't truly seem to be in much of a hurry either, despite physically talking to Mayuri several times.

To elaborate on why I think this is bad writing, here are some suggestions of what Suoh could have at least tried instead in all games combined. That's just a couple of things at the top of my head, but I remember having way more ideas when I read the other volumes.
1. Contact Mayuri's family. She never even tried.
2. Bring up her disappearance to child protection services (in case her family did not know her location)
3. Actually properly search the premises of the Basquiat's land. That mansion was 2 hours away by foot, but with a bike this would have been trivial.
4. The moment Mayuri physically appeared in a room over she only had to go to her room and cut off her escape. While during their first meeting I may have been able to forgive her inaction due to shock, the second and third time do not have that luxury. If the issue is that Suoh alone is not capable of it, she could have asked her crew of friends to block off all exits. Yes, Mayuri would not have been happy, but by forcing her into a proper conversation this would have been resolved in a day.
5. This one is less of an instant solution and more of a question how blind Suoh is, but she did investigate the specimen room thoroughly for a while (the game went out of its way to repeatedly point that out), yet she didn't find the letters by Sion and Kifune? The ones that literally have the name "Sion Basquiat" on them? Why did it take Rikka finding them to get this clue? This is just a poor excuse to have Rikka contribute.
6. Most of Angraecum's history sounds like it can be found on a Wikipedia page. Suoh could have used her 3 different breaks to leave the academy and connect to the internet for research. This story often feels like it wants to take place in the 1960s and the only reason it doesn't is that the writer can't make movie and book references of more recent stuff then.

Of course all of this can be chalked up to dramatization and a desire to keep the reader in suspense, but Hiver in particular does an incredibly poor job of conveying or justifying character motivations. It all culminates in the fact that Mayuri's actions do not make sense. On any level.
She wishes to give that old lady a bit of happiness before she passes away. She has abondenment issues with her mother and used her as a replacement for that motherly figure in her life. So far it is all very understandable. But why did she have to lie or hide it? Why could she not be with Granny Elder for a period of time after attending school like normal? The woman quite directly believes Mayuri is Sion and still attending the school so there aren't even any incongruences in that set-up. Even if she had to give her intensive care for most of the day for some reason, Mayuri had NO reason to cut all ties with Suoh and her friends at all. Even if they met more rarely, it would have been fine. Even if they just sent each other letters it would have been fine!
This contrivance becomes more inexcusable when we take to mind that Mayuri was told that Granny Elder would only be under those delusions for around 3 months. If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her? Yes, eventually it turned out that the delusion did not end, because Mayuri was too similar to Sion, but that was not originally intended to happen. At worst Mayuri could have lied that she was going to some kind of extra-curricular art course far away for a few months.
This all boils down to the conclusion that Mayuri had no reason to act the way she did. There was also no reason for the entire cast and narrative to portray Elder as some kind of villain and snake. There was never a real antagonist. There wasn't even any danger. Why did everyone act like Suoh was playing with fire, when at most she would have uncovered a sad truth about the headmaster of the academy? What could they possibly have done, expel her? Not to mention that this entire deal was treated like it was one of the oldest and most deep of the Seven Mysteries, but it couldn't have been around for more than 20 years max, as Dhalia was a child when it happened. Do not even get me started on the alternate endings, which somehow portray it like Granny Elder would have lived for years on end and Mayuri would have been stuck with her way past Suoh's graduation. Everything falls apart.
This story would have been better if Mayuri had just stuck around and the final game was about discovering Sion Basquiat's secret for different reasons.

Continuing with badly conveyed information and motivations, I'm surprised that someone would so avidly defend how Yuzuriha and Nerine were treated in Hiver. I completely agree with Lilification that they were handled quite poorly. Yes, you can somehow piece together that Dhalia offered them a deal, but this is a joke. What did Dhalia actually call them out of elopment for? To send a letter she could have written herself and play guard dog in front of Dhalia's room? On the off chance that Suoh and all her friends are too dumb to tell that this is the worst act in history? You are seriously telling me that the two girls who are wanted for running away from home are willing to publically appear at the academy (with uniforms to boot) and that Dhalia was okay with putting them at risk? And for what? As we established, Suoh discovering the secret barely amounts to anything and Yuzuriha was the one who gave Suoh basically all of her hints anyway.
If you wish to argue that they had to be in Hiver to resolve their plotline, then maybe it should have been actually resolved? Because it really wasn't at all. You get a single hint that they had a deal with the Basquiats, but they have no proper send-off with anyone but Suoh and they just return to the same status quo we saw them at in Automne. Character writing wise this was a bad integration and a missed opportunity. The part about Yuzuriha getting attacked gets absolutely no resolution at all beyond implying the Basquiats were involved, but not for what reason or whom exactly. This is the final chapter, don't cliffhanger bait people with something that should have been resolved within the confines of its own plot. I do not care if there are audio dramas or additional materials that do explain it, this is bad form.
I am not exaggerating when I say that I feel Yuzuriha and Nerine's story had a better conclusion if it had stayed at Automne and the drama CDs of their eloped life in another city.

This all may sound exceptionally bitter and negative, but I want to clarify that I can only get so passionate about the shortcomings of Hiver, because I love the series and find that the really good parts of this final chapter are actually sensational. I find it simply a bit disappointing that the final chapter had to be carried mostly on character investment and emotion to make up for its manifold issues.
This post is already too long, but I will put together my thoughts on the best part of Hiver soon: The parallel story-telling and twist of Sion and Kifune's relationship with Suoh and Mayuri's.

last edited at Jul 17, 2022 6:49AM

It has been a while, so I think it's time for another spin at the recommended section. The theme this time will be FREE VNs. No matter whether you are a loyal tax payer or a free spirited privateer, these games are not going to cost you a single doubloon either way! These ones may all vary in quality, but never dismiss something just because it is free of charge. And to make it more palatable I will do 4 instead of the usual 3 this time. Because I like ya.

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First Snow

Synopsis: Having moved away from her friends and family to attend community college, Allison Merlo is a fresh student struggling with the day to day challenges of life.

Faced not only with living independently for the first time, but also having to get past her nerves to find new friends in an unfamiliar environment, she finds herself falling in with a group of eccentric writers and artists.

As she pushes through this new stage in her life, the art of the cold and enigmatic Eileen Turner takes her attention, setting her on a course she never expected.

Duration? Short (ca. 5-7 hours)

Gameplay? Kinetic. First Snow has no choices or gameplay elements, it simply tells its story. When I first played it there was no voice acting included yet, but there has been a partial voice patch since then, so I went back to check it out and the voice acting does not disappoint, albeit relegated to the more important scenes only. I found it a good incentive to replay the game once more. Of course you can always turn it off should you find it disturbing to your experience.
The game has a very sweet arts&crafts aesthetic (as expected of a story revolving around artsy students) and while the CGs may only be servicable, the animated way the paper like sprites move and the polish of the menus is commendable.

Yuri? Of course the main pairing delivers on that front and there is an implication towards a certain trio being involved with each other as well, though that is relegated to the eventual sequel. The romance in this story is very gradual and dare I say it - a rainbow in a dreary and grey season. The game's tempered color pallette and tightly knit writing makes the troubled journey of Allison and Eileen into a relationship feel like a warming fire during a snowy afternoon.
Allison starts out rather conflicted about not just her future as a student, but also her sexuality. Yet the drama (and there is plenty of that) is not much based around it at all. In fact the cast is rather open-minded and supportive, most of all Rose, Allison's adult roommate and resident biker chick who had her own troubled life story and understands the need for freedom and self-expression.

Version? The latest update is available wherever you may download the game and the voice acting patch is included. For Steam there is the option for the free 18+ Adult patch as well.

Sexual Content? Surprisingly yes. And not just mere nudity (the expected nude painting does appear however), but full blown sex scenes. They are done tastefully and fit the flow of the story well. I would recommend getting the adult patch if necessary.

Recommended? I rather enjoyed this short, but warm experience. The story went places I did not initially expect and is far from shallow. A coming of age story that uses its short duration wisely and represents homosexuaity in a grounded way. What more do you need? It is worth spending a cozy afternoon on for sure! It is available on Steam, Itch.io and salty-salty-studio's website.

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Without A Voice

Synopsis: In the depths of a dark and unforgiving forest, an exiled princess whiles her time in solitude. For a girl raised in the lap of comfort, the woods are impossibly harsh, and day-to-day survival is the most she can manage. One day, however, a mysterious, beautiful maiden appears, throwing her world out of its already delicate alignment. The princess is instantly captivated by this stranger, and begins to fancy herself the heroine of a fairytale, even as the maiden proves herself to be less and less of a fantasy.

Foolish princess. She should know by now that her life is no fairytale.

In seven days, the wheel of fate will splinter. Seven days, for better or worse…

Duration? Short (ca. 3 hours)

Gameplay? Without A Voice is a choice based Visual Novel and has a variety of endings, some harder to obtain than others, none explicitely the best or true ending as far as I believe. It is a game that is steeped in heavy themes and it is very likely that you will experience many dark turns and bad endings before you can carve out what little happiness that you will. The choice trees can seem fickle at times and I found myself stuck trying to get all the endings once or twice, but overall the experience is short and digestable.
The art varies in quality a lot I find, but the writing is outstanding for what it tries to accomplish.and always a pleasant read. I want to give a special mention to the music that is actually very enthralling.

Warning! The game contains some mild gore and deeply uncomfortable implications.

Yuri? Hard fought and the goal overall. The exiled princess and her strange visitor are all but tied to each other by fate, only which fate that will be is up to you. The game is very heavily centered around homophobia and the many layers it can manifest, but there is also a nearly ethereal note to everything. It is a fantasy world that seems almost too real and grim, but the true heavyniess comes from the lengths someone would go to for love.

Version? There is only one version, so no need to compare. The game got a new patch in 2024 that added voice acting to the game.
Sexual Content? None.

Recommended? An easy recommend from me. For such a short experience I found myself thinking of this one a lot. There is not much quite like it out there. The execution can be simplistic, but the story takes itself seriously and is ready to surprise you even several endings in. It is available on Steam, Itch.io and Studio Elan's website.

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FInd Love or Die Trying

Synopsis: "I'm your host Kat, and this is Find Love or Die Trying!

It's the premiere of our new dating show, where ending up single... means ending up dead! Not sure why you'd sign up for this, but now that you're here, you've got 7 days to get one of the lovely ladies on your tropical island getaway to fall in love in with you. If she's willing to put a ring on it, you're both free to leave. If not... well, it's in the name of the show!

You'll get the chance to meet:
Allie, the daredevil athlete with a rebellious streak
Scarlett, the charming scientist with a penchant for destruction
Violet, the cold-as-ice scion of a mysterious MegaCorp
Terra, the eccentric gamer who marches to her own drum
Yui, the childhood sweetheart with a smile that could melt ice
...And last, but definitely not least, me! Kat! The impossibly perfect and painfully gorgeous host and producer. Did I forget to mention generous? I'll be helping you get those romantic connections going, so you better be grateful!

Then again, my bonus is tied to the ratings, and not you surviving the show, so... Hm.

Anyway.... I can't wait to start filming our first episode together!"

Duration? Short (5-10 hours). Depending on whether you really want to get all the endings or see all the possible divergent outcomes of events.

Gameplay? Find Love Or Die Trying is a choice based story in which your input will lead you to different events in the titular reality show. Of course the wacky premise is not at all what it seems and down the line your choices will affect much more than just the ratings. Saying any more would spoil the twists I fear, so I will be brief.
This may well be the VN with the highest production quality of this FREE theme, which reflects in its very nice artworks and UI polish. Regardless, the sprites are static and the choice trees are not as complex as they first may appear. The writing is the highlight without a doubt and it balances wacky fun with shockingly depressing and somber wordbuilding.

Warning: With the premise stated there may be certain comedic expectations, but be assured that the story can get very messed up at times, so readers with a queasy stomach may wish to consider this game carefully.

Yuri? Here is the thing with this game's yuri content. You are essentially portrayed as a self-insert character and can choose between He/She/They at the beginning. This means technically you can choose to be a woman and date all the other women. Yet I have to point out that during the entire game and all its events I have been addressed as "She" exactly once. And it was by some random side-character that didn't matter. The majority of the game the writing is doing it's best to not acknowledge the player's gender and sticks to using "they" anyway. Of course this also means the game never contradicts your choice either.
So how much Yuri you actually get out of the game depends on how well you are able to project a female persona on the main character. There is no visual representation and no particular hint towards their gender in any interaction, so it's really up to the reader.

That being said, should you be able to accept that the main character is in fact a woman, then the yuri is more or less the focus of the story. It's what the game show is all about, right? There are 6 heroines and 6 endings. It is up to you to choose which girl seems to be your best fit, but even outside your own choices there is a lot of baggage involved.

Version? There is only one version, so no need to compare.

Sexual Content? None. Although sexual moments are implied aplenty, they are never depicted nor described.

Recommended? The hang-up about the main character's gender takes a lot of attention, but I need to point out that the narrative really goes places, absurd as they may be. I think that the game is intentionally deceptive about many things and that in itself makes it so much more intriguing. Even if there were no yuri at all I would suggest trying it out, but as it stands there is some viable romantic content here that should not be dismissed. One heroine/ending in particular really got to me. I hope you will embrace her at the end of this hellish show as well. The game is available on Steam and Itch.io.

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Dorakone

Synopsis: Something new is hitting the mobile markets and taking the world by storm! An augmented reality game called Dragon Connection (DraCo) allows players to become trainers, collecting and battling with hundreds of dragons!

Dulce, after spending a few weeks saving up for a new phone, can finally participate in the craze! Though she's a little behind the curve, she’s soon immersed in the world of the game and its community. As she builds her collection of virtual dragons, and a circle of new friends grows with it, how will her summer vacation unfold?

Duration? Short (ca. 2-5 hours)

Gameplay? Dorakone is a choice based Visual Novel. There are three routes with 2 endings each (+ 2 solo endings, if you lone wolf it). It is really not complex at all. If it wasn't obvious after the synopsis, this game is heavily leaning on parodying trends like Pokemon Go and other AR games, but with dragons this time. That being said it also makes commentary on mobile gaming in general and each heroine represents a different type of player. They also all happen to be pretty gay.
The art is nothing to write home about, but it has charme. Dulce needs her own card game style anime.

Yuri? It's a game where you partner up with girls to summon dragons in virtual combat and win a tournament together. Romance at its finest.
Joking aside, every girl is not just a different type of mobile gaymer, they are also very different types of gay. Honoree in particular would seem very in line with Dynasty's crowd I feel.

Version? There is only one version, so no need to compare.

Sexual Content? Not in front of the kids!

Recommended? I will be honest, this one is just passable in my opinion, but it is entirely competent. I really enjoyed Honoree's route in particular and some of the game commentary is actually relatable. I think Dorakone is really most suited for a very specific type of reader and if you feel anything at all when you see gay girls play AR games then Dorakonnect to the web and download it! ...it is available on Steam and Itch.io.

last edited at Apr 13, 2024 4:27PM

The final FLOWERS game is now translated and available in the store. Le volume sur Hiver finally finishes the series.

It's bittersweet to see one of my favorite yuri series end, but I am so very glad that I got to experience it. I may have my issues with the plot of this game in particular (it is a major step down from the brilliant Autumn chapter), but there is not much in the way of such polished and beautiful works of art out there that I can wholeheartedly recommend, so do not take that criticism as a knock against the series.

I am still not ready to write my full recommendation for the entire series, but I urge anyone who loves in-depth character driven writing or a slightly Class-S setting with mystery aspects to it... read it. Read it all and be assured that it will be worth it in the end.

I still need to digest what I just finished, but discussing Hiver would also be appreciated as I wonder if my impressions are congruent with fellow readers.

I have added it to the list (alongside a lot of other VNs). Sorry for my absence and lack of updates. Life is always a whimsical thing.

I've "finished" Hiver.
Or, to be precise, I was finished by Hiver.

I've no idea how to properly, adequately and fully describe what I've seen, heard and felt for the last two days and 25 hours without resorting to baby talk and onomatopoeia. This is no mere mortal, secular masterpiece — this a full-on cathartic religious experience. I've shed more tears of joy and sorrow during it than during any other entry.

Currently I'm just marinating in emotions, feelings and thoughts, so I'm not planning on writing an actual review on the series yet. But I'll mention one thing: Hiver cements "love" as the core theme of the series, and not just in a trite romantic sense. Over the year, these girls have become each other's sisterly and motherly figures, friends, fans, admirers and lovers. They will do anything for each other, anything to lift and to support each other, anything to protect each other, and that is the most blindingly beautiful part of an otherwise incredibly dark, compared to other entries, narrative of Hiver. Forget Automne's brooding and soul-crushing tonality, because this right here is the most oppressive, harrowing, freezing-cold and sometimes straight up terrifying tone and atmosphere in all of the series.

Yet in darkness search for light and hope.

I am glad you enjoyed it this much. I agree on your assessment of what the overall theme of the series may actually be too. Love is central in every aspect and everything that denies love is portrayed as something foreign and bad (for example Suoh's spectre of her Stepmother). The final theme before the true credits was also quite distinctly about same-sex love. Love between two girls can't be wrong, the heart wants what it does and there is no need to deny it.

The oppressive feeling of Hiver is one of its strengths. Indeed, atmosphere, tone and emotions are what holds it higher and makes up for its more lacking aspects, like the plot.

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No Akai ito, Amaranto, Expression Amrilato, Distant Memorajo, Letters From A Rainy Day, Nurse Love Addiction, Nurse Love Syndrome, Yumeutsutsu Re After, Yumeutsutsu Re Master, and Yuuki Yuuna VN series? Blasphemy!

Pardon me, but Letters from a Rainy Day and both Yumeutsu titles have been on the list since I created this thread.
As for the others, I am aware of the Nurse Love games and the Yuuki Yuuna anime, but I cannot claim to be aware of the others. If you can recommend them I will add them to the list.

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I'll try my hand at a sort of description akin to the OP

Seabed: https://vndb.org/v19273

Ah yes, Seabed. I feel ashamed for not putting it on my initial list. I have read it, lived it and breathed it for that one memorable week in summer years ago... and then I sealed it away for some reason.

Famously this was the VN that got now beloved Adachi & Shimamura writer, Hitoma Iruma, into yuri. This may well be its greatest legacy haha

last edited at Jul 15, 2022 12:34AM

Hm. So you are telling me that you don't recommend this, right?

No, the recommendation is genuine. It isn't good, but it is fun and, if you like those kinds of kinks, hot.
And it does have a Mandarin option which might be okay so if you speak that it could be even better

I will not recommend a machine translation. Especially not one that asks for money. And even if we did recommend based on alternate language translations, you can't even verify the quality of the Mandarin release, right? (Just a guess, sorry if you actually do speak Mandarin)
If someone is desperate for... that content, then I am sure they will find it. Your comment is still here for them to find it too, so I hope that's enough. ^^;

I mean... just look at the score distribution on VNDB. That aside though, isn't pretty much every Flowers release around 15-20 hours as well? To me that's pretty average for a commercial release with niche appeal. I asked about Oshirabu the other day in part because to me its such an outlier in terms of its short length.

I don't put value on scores. Especially for things that have content I don't care for, like this one. It doesn't represent what an outsider might enjoy, only what someone who is into these things does. Therefore it cannot tell me what I actually need to know, which is if this is worth reading despite everything going against it (for me).

As for Flowers, you are name dropping the cream of the crop here and taking it as the standard.
Oshirabu is not an outlier, this is completely common.

Winged Cloud is also a doujin circle, as is NEKO Works. There's a lot less continuity with Winged Cloud stuff though, so I don't really think the comparison is entirely relevant.

So you agree that adding up sequels to the length of a single game makes no sense? At least that would be the conclusion.
"Doujin circle" or not, that is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. The Sakura Trilogies have total continuity.

Even though Sono Hanabira is written to be fairly accessible there's still 3 or 4 games dedicated to each couple

Certainly, but the comparison was to Higurashi and the like. A focused throughline narrative just can't be treated seperately. Sono Hanabira can.

Actually, very little of what you're saying has made much sense but if you're conflating RPGMakers with VN in your "garbage sorting" then I guess what you're saying has some merit.

Wow. You love making assumptions, don't you? You aren't exactly the poster child for common sense either if you hadn't figured out that I only brought up RPGmaker to compare the combat system. How you could project this minor point unto the general topic is beyond me.
No, I do not think RPGmaker games are VNs. They are RPGs. VN/RPG hybrids are different as well, I know the difference. That's why I recommended a hybrid and not a generic RPG with yuri content. There are also VNs with TCG aspects that I played before. There are many weird hybrids out there.

You seem to be in denial about the state of the industry, I must assume, if you really believe that anything I said about it is incorrect. My words don't need to have "merit", they just reflect reality. The het scene is even more overwrought with low quality garbage than all the others. Whether your standards are low or you really just pick out high profile industry darlings, I cannot say. For every Key release there will be 10 small company generic nukige. For every Steins;Gate there will be 20 generic dating sims. It is the way of the world.

last edited at Feb 14, 2022 2:34AM

That scene isn't about Tara giving up. Like, it literally ends with Morgan saying that she'll get Maddie back and Tara responding "I know. If anyone can, it's you."
Also, that choice is not about "what should Tara do", it's "what should Morgan do." Each choice is made by Morgan and is a part of her growth as a character. Her allowing Tara to let out her feelings is important for her character growth more than anything else. Same with the two other choices.

I am sorry, either I'm misremebering that part of the story a lot or you mixed up the two outcomes. The point of Tara's breakdown was to accept that Maddie is most likely dead. She is literally grieving for her. Morgan is giving her emotional support to get through that. The other choice is the one where they don't accept that she is dead and Morgan encourages Tara to keep her chin up and go against her mother so they can get Maddie back.

And while I do prefer more kinetic stories I do also like the reader input, but redundant choices slow the story down. And that "few moments" is relative as well. Personally I have to: figure out what the choice is asking, figure out who or what the choices are referring to, in most cases I also save before making the choice, and write down which choice I go with so that I can figure out the other endings on later read throughs (also, if I save I need to write out which save file this path goes in also).

I think it is normal to save at every choice, but perhaps you are putting a little too much effort into the minute details? Writing down your choices or creating your own flowchart is mostly unecessary in my opinion, especially with modern VNs that let you easily skip from choice to choice or skip all read text. Maybe if you change your approach to how you deal with choices they will feel less cumbersome?

This can still be implemented in the way I described as fun. For example, instead of scattering choices that influence dialogue in a single scene (e.g. "A looks better" vs "B looks better") you would have choices that influence the next scene (e.g. "I want to go with A" vs "I want to go with B", where the next scene is decided by which you choose).
This still has the romance option resonating with your input without having said input amount to very little in the actual story.
These small choices, to me at least, feel like they're just "need to get enough points to trigger a flag" instead of "I really like this person so I want compliment her", because the small choices don't really reward the reader with anything other than the knowledge that "this raises their points"

See, this is a pretty good point. If you were refering to choices that have no direct effect on what's going on and instead work with an invisible affection gauge it can be frustrating. When I speak of minor choices I mean those which at least change the immediate scene after you make it, but perhaps have no real effect on the overarching plot.

Affection points and flags that are integrated the other way are more common in dating sims and are a holdover of the genre's early days. In some scenarios it makes sense (I bring up detective style gameplay again, where making wrong deductions or choices can have long term consequences you don't see immediately. A so called "bad end gauge" haha).

Anyway, since that comment is off topic

I would not say so. We are discussing Visual Novels and their tropes here, which I said in my initial post, is completely fine. I think it is important for recommendations too ot understand the preferences of people and how they perceive the medium.

let me give you a "great" recommendation: Fallen Girl - Black Rose and the Fire of Desire

If you ever wanted a full on fetish work that's 99% gay, there you go (it has like, a very tiny bit of other stuff like tentacles but mostly yuri). It has it all (spoilers for NSFW reasons): BDSM, rape, mindbreak—those three are literally just the basic premise of the story—pet play, exhibitionism, aphrodisiacs, and a bunch of other stuff
Also, its English translation, the one that's being sold on Steam for ~$13, is what I presume to be a non-edited machine translation which makes it completely unreadable

Hm. So you are telling me that you don't recommend this, right?

Let me start by saying I don't read yuri exclusively at all so if you're talking strictly yuri works I understand that you feel they're 'competitive' but at the same time we're speaking different languages.

I read the occasional non-yuri VN (mostly those that aren't romance focused of course). I am not blind to things outside the genre.

I'm not saying Japan doesn't have low quality, low budget stuff either but 30+ hours is actually fairly average for het oriented moege and such with around 4 routes.

Those are generally low quality though, so I suppose in the end you still have to choose.
I think you are vastly underestimating how many VNs flood the market in Japan every year and how many of those are simply egregiously low quality or short. I am not saying this as a fact, so please don't take it that way, but it could well be that you read only translated works, in which case you are more likely to find things that someone thought were worth translating.
I have spent a lot of times on forums where JP VNs have been put into consideration for fan translations (Yuri, het, BL, whatever you can think of) and you learn that there are unfathomable amounts of garbage out there sadly.

Something like Subarashiki Hibi (Wonderful Everyday) which I brought up a few posts ago is easily 50+ hours. It is a masterpiece and has some yuri (and futa) but also more trigger warnings that I care to type out. And back to yuri Kindred Spirits on the Roof is around 30 hours as well. I don't think you grasp how long relatively normal VN actually are. I'll give you that Fate/stay night is a bit of an exception -- but it's also something like 70+ hours.

Judging a book by its cover is bad form, but that VN does not look or sound like a masterpiece... I will have to take your word for it though, as I would never read it.
Kindred Spirits is an outlier when it comes to Yuri VNs. I really think for Yuri VNs ~20ish hours is considered long.
F/SN is one of the longest I've read and well, Nasu has a tendency for bloating, that's just how his writing goes.

Ne no Kami died before its time, but keep in mind it is a doujin work; so was A Kiss for the Petals, though for Maidens of Michael (Sono Hanabira 11) they formed a proper company. Both may have been shorter individually but with episodic releases in mind. Ne no Kami ended up about 20 hours between both released games, Wanting Wings is around 20 hours for two games as well. With Sono Hanabira Maidens of Michael is about 20 hours, New Generation! is around 14 hours and there's like 18 other entries in the series waiting for you if you feel so inclined. And for the record Umineko was a doujin as well, and released as 8 episodes from 2007 to 2011.

I mean... if you add up sequels to the length of a VN then that is a bit deceptive. In that case I could add the Sakura games up, which individually are like 4-6 hours, to 20 hours or more for each trilogy. Not exactly shining beacons of quality those ones, but there are so many of them...

With Higurashi and Umineko I do see each part as just one chapter of the same singular VN, because there is nothing self-contained about those parts. I can read any Sono Hanabira game on its own perfectly fine. I cannot read a random arc in Higurashi and feel satisfied.

I'm pretty sure "I just can't get into them" is a valid opinion, and while I'm generally always open to new shit to read I just haven't seen any OELVN that looked particularly intriguing recently. I'm not saying they're bad at all though, just that I haven't found anything to my taste. I might give Perfect Gold or Heart of the Woods a try, but I don't really like cyberpunk so Synergia is out. I like getting sort of lost in VN for a couple weeks at a time though, so the length of them is definitely sort of an issue... that goes beyond yuri VN as almost all OELVN seem to plateau at around 10 to 12 hours.

Yes, I did say that it is completely fine if you can't get into something. It is normal. I also already showed that I have many limits myself that I am not willing to pass. This conversation is entirely one of intellectual interest to determine what differences could cause that kind of reaction. It is rather easy to comprehend why someone dislikes a fetish, not so much with an entire varied source of content.

If you really seek copious amounts of content that are also high quality, I can see why you aren't exactly spoiled for choice. Those are high standards. Although if you read het, then you probably have a lot more garbage to sift through on top of that. With the state of the industry, 80% of new releases are just low effort eroge, or even worse, nukige. My condolences.

I want to be a little more helpful, so may I suggest this: VN/RPG hybrids. Those are usually more content packed for obvious reasons and still give you what VNs are best at. And as it happens there is one of those on the recommendation list that also happens to be a OELVN!
After I Met That Catgirl, My Questlist Got Too Long! If you go for completion it's around 40-60 hours. The quality is generally pretty good, especially in the writing, although the voice acting for side-characters can be... lacking. Though it has some of the most non-cringy sex scene voice acting I have experienced... and that is in English no less.
5 routes, lots of side-content, a dozen endings, a combat system that isn't copy-paste RPGmaker stuff and generally a lot of care and effort put into the details. I highly recommend this one.

last edited at Feb 13, 2022 3:34AM

Personally I love the choices there because, in my opinion, the true ending choices were the only ones that did make sense (for Morgan to make). Additionally, I love that Morgan is the only character who gets to make choices out of the four characters considering the story the VN has

Perhaps this would go too deeply into spoilers and the plot, but the first choice that mattered and the last choice that mattered seemed entirely incongruent with the purpose of the story and what the narrative was about. Of course there are combinations for certain endings that were logically sound, but the best ending requires you to make a choice that doesnt seem sensible to me.
To be specific The idea that Tara should grief and accept Maddie's death is directly opposed to the theme of the story of not giving up and is directly contradicted by, well, Maddie obviously coming back. Tara's entire character revolves around the fact that she believes everything is possible and that she doesn't just give up even if it seems futile. That is one of the things that attracted Morgan to her in the first place. Letting your emotions go free is a good thing, but the fact that it is inherently tied to giving up on Maddie is not sensible to me.

And what I mean by "too many choices" isn't that choices themselves are bad but that most VNs I've read go overboard. Reader choice is great and all, but too much ends up devaluing the story.
Basically, I think that choices should only happen at important moments in the narrative instead of being scattered around. Scattering them around ends up interrupting the story while well placed choices work with the narrative.

This is simply a matter of proper integration I believe. Choices dont really interrupt the plot much at all, they only take a few moments to make at most. To my understanding you are basically saying that you prefer kinetic VNs or ones that want to tell a straightforward plot as I mentioned before. You don't care too much about player input, you just want a focused narrative. That is fine of course and there are many great examples of this style.

My counter-argument is that if you have only a couple of choices at important moments, they often feel more unecessary, because it makes everything binary. If the plot is this focused, what need is there for choices in the first place? The intent of choices is for you to feel like you made a difference or that you caused something to happen. With a few obvious choices it feels like you just selected from a menu at a restaurant (often this happens when there are only choices at the start or end of a VN), with a few obtuse choices it feels random (you mean I shouldn't have pressed the green button that I knew nothing about?).

A choice system that gives you both choices with little consequences and big consequences mixed into the narrative can keep the player on their toes. It also can give you some variety in smaller scenes, which is good for replay value. For VNs with route systems many small choices can determine your route, which many people find appealing. It feels like the romance option really suits your personality, because you didn't just pick her, she actually resonates with your input.
Of course if more content is a negative to you or if a lot of variables are paralyzing to you, then that would not be helpful.

last edited at Feb 12, 2022 5:45PM

Its not a comparison; I just really sort of dislike futa and prefer to avoid it. I try to stay open minded; I just recently got really, really into a ryona which I didn't see coming but with futa I just... can't. I can deal with them if they're relatively minor elements of a long VN, though.

Oh my. I would be the exact opposite, I have no tolerance for abuse in the slightest. Consensual sex between a futanari and a woman seems 100% more acceptable to me.

OELVN really have nowhere near the length or production value of Japanese VN,

This is just outright false for so many reasons. From the reality that the majority of Japanese VNs have low production value and you are just thinking of the high profile ones, to the fact that VNs like Perfect Gold and Synergia exist in the EN realm.
When it comes to length I would say Japanese VNs average out at 5-12 hours. The really long plot driven ones or those with RPG elements being the exceptions actually. Yes, you will have your Lilycle with its 30 hours completion time or the Type-Moon stuff that is basically just the length of an actual novel series, but that is not as common as you may think. Oshirabu, Letters from a Rainy Day and Ne no kami are a lot more common.

I've tried a at least a few OELVN here and there, well regarded stuff like Highway Blossoms, VA-11 Hall-A, even Doki Doki and just got kinda bored.

Then let's look at those examples.
HB is a pretty alright one, though the first attempt of that dev team. I think it is decent enough, with a setting and story that you will honestly not see anywhere else in this style, which makes it at least unique unlike the 250th high school girl story.
VA-11 Hall-A is super niche and caters to very specific tastes. I at least hope you didn't lump this one into the low production value ones, because what they do with that budget is very impressive.
DDLC is just mainstream viral material. It's only purpose for existing is to parody dating sims and VNs that are honestly better than it. As a response to actual VNs and subverting the genre, it can obviously not be treated like a representation of it.

I am not saying you are wrong for not getting into something, that is just a matter of taste. But I believe your choices and your criticism are at least slightly misguided. Higurashi, Umineko and VNs like that can absolutely spoil people with their length, depth and quality. But they are just not represenative of a vertcal slice of the industry.

Personally I tend to prefer OELVNs though not by much. Mainly it's because Heart of the Woods is easily the best VN I've ever read.
I certainly think it has better production value than most Japanese VNs I've read and the story is just the perfect length. Also, it doesn't have too many choices which is definitely a problem that most VNs suffer from

Heart of the Woods is very good, no doubt about it, though I can't see myself ever holding it as the best in my... heart.

As far as choices in VNs go, that is certainly debatable. It depends on how this tool is actually integrated. With route systems and affection point systems that decide your ending, choices are very good at giving the player agency and also giving you replay value. Of course works like Tsukihime or Kara no Shoujo are also infamous for the abundance of bad endings they entail, which can make flowcharts a nightmare. I think this is rather appropiate for detective style games at least where a mystery or some discoveries are involved.

Keeping the choices to a minimum is good for novels that just want to tell a staightforward plot. Personally I didn't like the choices that Heart of the Woods offered you, because they seemed arbitrary and to this day I genuinly don't think the ones needed for the good ending make sense. But due to them being so far and few inbetween it wasn't much effort to try out the combinations, so that is a plus.

last edited at Feb 12, 2022 3:55PM

I... have no knowledge of anything that is both yuri and scat, and I think I'd prefer to keep it that way. Though I couldn't stop myself from searching it on VNDB anyway. I have a pretty high tolerance for everything but scat and futa.

I know there's some more yuri OELVN out there like LIP! Lewd Idol Project but I only really know it because the dev got hosed by PayPal.

I find it odd to equate futa to scat. It sounds a bit like equating het sex to scat, haha. All I can say is that I avoid anything with the Scat tag religiously, in so far we are the same.

Is there a reason you have a dislike for "OEL" VNs? As someone who has read plenty of both Enlgish and Japanese produced ones, I see no particular quality difference between the two inherently. Quality is always dependent on budget, creative control and talent.

That being said, I have not played LIP!. The concept being, well, idols, makes this a very uncomfortable topic for me. They may all be tied to lesbian romances, but they still expose themselves for male idol fans I assume. Not my cup of tea. If anyone read it and can recommend it I will add it, though.

^Not just that, Kronii gets women wherever she goes, but is too much of a disaster to even notice it.

She is thinking about being stepped on again.

I skimmed it but didn't put a ton of time into it; the fan translation is more or less passable and its pretty much about a girl coming to terms with her fetish who really wants the girl she likes to hear/smell/see her pee and such. Its definitely not something I would universally recommend like Wanting Wings but I figured I'd throw it on the pile for thoroughness' sake. I still haven't mentioned Subarashiki Hibi either because while its got a bit of yuri, its got a lot more of 'what the actual fuck am I reading'. I have a hard time getting into OELVN so I can't compare or comment much on stuff like Lucy Got Problems.

I have a hard time categorizing works I haven't read based on just circumstantial information. And if you merely skimmed through it, I can't really take the recommendation at full face value. A passable fan translation is another downgrade.

LGP is also a fetish work, but it still has a plot and is more comedy focused and that's also what the fetish content leans into. Stories about urination, defecation (and whatever else) tend to put an overemphasize on that fetish.

Be that as it may, if you throw your hat into the ring for this then I'll add it to the list.

A bunch of yuri (including the aforementioned Wanting Wings) is on sale at MangaGamer for Valentine's is why I was debating Oshirabu...

Ultimately it is a rather short work, so even if it isn't completely to your liking you can get through it quick enough. The original price is a bit steep for the content you get, but I think it is definitely worth getting in a sale.

Is OshiRabu worth reading? I really like the art style but its rather short and I've heard mixed things.

It has its faults, but I quite enjoyed it and it's sequel/add-on. I understand why many people have mixed feelings on it too, because I was the same way when I read it. Not in the sense that I find anything in it bad, but rather that it takes a lot of patience and an open mind. If you heard people say that it doesn't deliver on the yuri, rest assured, those people are wrong. It is in the nature of a yuri reader not to take kindly to a woman gushing over her male "crushes" while next to her female love interest, that's all.

Truthfully it is a very sweet and well paced love story. The main character, Akuru, just happens to be an otaku obsessed with her male oshis from all kinds of games and anime. This is both the crux of the plot and what causes all this friction with readers. Akuru is an adult who has never dated and has completely lost herself to the 2D realm. She never really had a chance to explore her sexuality either, which is why at first she is not very open to romance with another girl (not to mention one a lot younger).
That is juxtaposed with Ren, who is a high school girl that is 100% aware that she is a lesbian and is rather headstrong enough to go her own way, even against her family. She pursues Akuru pretty intensely, but is also a good influence on her in general.

What gripped me most about this VN is in fact this transition from a woman who never really considered love and is very withdrawn, to someone who learns to accept change while not abandoning her identity. I won't spoil any of the major plot beads here, but Ren's situation is also not quite as obvious as it first appears.
Additionally the voice acting is top notch. Akuru's voice actress has to jump some hoops that take serious vocal skill.

Two things though: Get the R18 version/patch, because the sexual content really helps to convey some progress for the first game. That alongside the "sequel" Love Or Die really changed my conflicted feelings a lot from back when I read the original. It made me understand that it all was a sensible progression.
Get all the endings. I think that really contrasts what actually makes their relationship interesting.

Also I forgot to mention Yurinate! for the list which is... exactly what it sounds like.

While I hardly have any right to critisize fetish works after recommending Lucy Got Problems, I still would ask you... have you actually read this? Because if you hadn't and cannot recommend it, I would probably rather avoid it altogether. Watersports is one of those tags that generally have a very... unique approach to story-telling.

last edited at Feb 11, 2022 10:12AM

Well, I'm quite voracious when it comes to yuri VNs, but I'm also picky and quite snobbish, lol.

That is an unfortunate combination indeed, haha. Though I would consider myself quite voracious as well, I do find joy in some less stellar or high production works. Limiting yourself too much can be problematic. I find that often times the more indie works that lack polish have strong imagination and writing behind them to make up for it.

I'm done with Kudan no Folklore.

Ah, the localised Curse of Kudan that was interoduced prior, yes? It's one of the few I haven't read yet. I found the premise a bit overbearing, but you sure seem to sing its praises. Might be worth looking into.

Also, I have to scream about THIS (big spoilers for the true ending of Flowers -Le volume sur automne-, Automne drama CD and a very mild spoiler for one of KnF's endings):

THERE IS AN INDIRECT REFERENCE TO YUZURIHA IN ONE OF THE ENDINGS OF KUDAN NO FOLKLORE. Like, one of the characters casually mentions that she met a beautiful, dashing girl, who has silver hair and apparently is a photographer. Given the KnF's location, which is a coastal town, this makes me want to scream even louder.
I swear to god, Hatsumi, why are you doing this to us?!

Then it would take place after Automne in the timeline... but probably much later. The Drama CD mentioned Yuzuriha working in a book store, so her being a real photographer is quite the time jump. I knew the drama CDs are canon to the ture ending timeline, but this is a nice easter egg that makes it feel more real.

last edited at Feb 11, 2022 4:48AM

A very random point to timeslip back. It didn't even involve playground equipment this time, very inconsistent!
I wonder how it will turn out. There are about a dozen different time travel theories going on right now, but what will get us the maximum wish fulfillment? That is the real question.

last edited at Feb 11, 2022 4:37AM

^After, naturally. Rika gave him the push to confess.

@DY4Y
Mind you I havent read all of them, but by the time I stopped reading Sena and MC started dating (which was quite subversive at the time, because the entire plot had driven him towards Yozora). Yozora became a total self-destructive trainwreck before that, admitting that a lot of what she had been doing was due to her issues and from what I remember Sena and MC were trying to help her recover.

I don't care much for het romance and I definitely saw Sena as fiercely bisexual, but from what I remember it all made sense in its own way. I do wonder how it actually ended.

While I find the idea that they didn't even call each other a little too unbelievable, I do like the overall theme a lot. It is fluffy and tempered, but all around a good experience. To finally break free of the time limit by graduation day and just leaving it all behind to see the cherry trees far past their stops is great symbolism. The growth they both experienced helped them change into people who can escape the confines of their parents and society's expectations.

Those are all pretty strong reactions for allegedly not caring. Trust issues should be relegated to sensible moments. She trusts her aunt, because her aunt was the only positive family influence she had. She doesn't trust the author she works for completely, so she won't come out to her.

Has she come out to her aunt, though?

Not as far as I can tell. Whether that is because she fears the same reaction as her parents or if she simply just didn't think it was necessary is a different question.
My point was that after the abuse of her parents she still willingly entrusted herself completely to her aunt's hand and support, so she clearly trusts her more than the rest of her family. Her being a Tokyo woman and someone who would not judge her all the much for running away from home proves that she is closer to the modern ideal that Ayu strives for.

^The Shadowverse story mode has about 5 Yuri ships (3 of which involve Arisa and Erika), but it's mostly just light subtext. One pairing had a special episode that was 100% portrayed as romantic, but by the end they cowarded out and talked about how they are 'great friends forever'. Also that episode only existed for a limited time so you can only find it on Youtube.
Now the cards on the other hand have a bunch of gay pairings, some from other Cygames series. Every single card-set involving Anne & Grea is gayer than the last.

last edited at Feb 8, 2022 2:43PM

As long as they do not repeat the mistake the game did, it might turn out fine.

Sigh... why did they have to change the ending?
Also I am not sure whether these two being together would be worth an AU where Abobo x Abobo exists...

I love this picture on so many levels. It really reflects their relationship by the end of the current arc so well. Arisa, the small and timid friend, has become the savior who dragged Losaria back from Nexus control and is now standing taller than her. But she couldn't have done it without the assistance of all those at her side (represented by the stool).

Or maybe this is just a height joke. Either way these two are gay and I will not accept it if Cygames decides to split them up in their next appearance.

She failed in her career because she didn’t have the support she needed to succeed: both Nanasawas could handle her mundane routines of cooking, cleaning, and working part-time to help pay her way towards acting classes and auditions full time.

I'm late on the ball on this point, but I wanted to go ahead and comment: The manga actually explicitly tells us that Seto's career failed because she was unconvincing in romantic scenes. Basically, the implication was that her life experience was lacking and she didn't know how to convey the emotions that come with romance. It is very likely that the manga will play this off as though her experience with Nanasawa fills in those gaps and makes her a better actress better able to succeed.

To add to this point, albeit mostly speculation on my part, I would say this can be directly connected to the reason she went into an early unhappy marriage. She was most likely jumping at the opportunity to make up for what she was lacking in experience and took the first man who showed her love as a chance. Of course a relationship like that would break down quickly as well.

Though it is handled in the most clumsy and roundabout way, the theme of Nanasawa averting a dark future simply by being able to show her love is interesting.

Adachi actually gets a lot better around her mid-twenties. She can hide her embarrassment better and is generally more cool heaed. Shimamura becomes a happy ditz.

^If you are refering to the manga adaptation, you might be better served reading the novels. At least consider it after you caught up with the manga and need more.