The "innocence" which you seem to be fixated on is a completely irrelevant concern here in the first place. People in pain only too readily and often lash out in ugly, counterproductive and contrafinal ways, this is a well-attested fact of anguished human behaviour. It does not somehow magically disqualify them from help or sympathy; to repeat, it's something anyone serious about helping them needs to cope with if they want to do any good.

I never said she is disqualified from getting help. You don't sound like you want to understand what I'm trying to say, you just want me to agree with you.

Way to both miss the point directed at you, and specifically demonstrate your inability to empathise with the actual problem.

Maybe you should stop replying to someone with a lack of the ability you possess then. Or maybe stop turning the conversation to personal attack.

For the record that kind of indiscriminately bitter lashing out is something that routinely comes up in the retrospections of people who were bullied as children. It's basically just symptomatic behaviour anyone who's serious about wanting to help them has to accept until they recover enough to get over it; rather like how injured animals in pain are wont to bite anyone who comes near.

My problem with her character is that it seems like she is conscious about hurting both Sakura and the teacher, not simply "lashing out" on them because she is hurt. These characters of Kodama's works always have that side of them who are consciously morally at fault too.

You can be bullied and lash out on people who try to help you without actually meaning to hurt them.
You can be bullied, but consciously try to unload your frustrations to anyone you can, both into innocents and the perpetrators. In this case the innocents.

Again, I'm not saying what she does is way out of proportion either, I get it, but I'm also pointing out she isn't completely innocent here either. I'm sure she will eventually get help, but right now she is also being a perpetrator. Depression is not a free pass to hurt others, otherwise everyone in this world would end up recreating the cycle.

Complaining about her not wanting to help herself and trying to drag Sakura down is like trying to tell someone suffering from depression that they wouldn't be depressed if they didn't actually want to be depressed or getting mad at them for acting up towards someone who can't fully comprehend their situation. And that's latter point is especially valid here. Despite seeing Ashima's situation firsthand, Sakura cannot truly understand what her sister is going through. By all accounts she's have a very good life herself with little in the way of suffering or anything actually resembling it.

People should really try to be more empathetic here.

I explained above. The fact that someone is depressed doesn't give them a free pass on their actions either. Her actions are understandable to a certain degree, but what I don't excuse is someone trying to do bad to others who are not in fault of their situation. If she acted like that towards her step mom for example I'd get it. But she is lashing on people who are not at fault here and are trying to help her.
This conversation can go on cycles and we can keep on repeating the same thing with different words, because there is no objectively right in this situation and everyone sets the line on a different level. But it's not about not showing empathy. Almost everyone has their reasons of faulting others, does that mean they have the right to do so?

I just find how she treats Sakura pretty distasteful, because Sakura had nothing to do with her unfortunate situation.

Now that's over. Can we get back to the main couple now?!!? Plz lol

X2. I've almost lost interest in this manga because it's been ages since we had any interaction between the two mains. The Izumi story is fine, but I feel like there should have been some Nanaki and Kurokawa scenes in between for a breather.

Also I've seen the raws of the next chapter and again Izumi with Kurokawa's friend, and still no Nanaki x Kurokawa. It's getting annoying

last edited at May 8, 2020 4:41PM

This story is fine, but it needs to up the yuriness between the two mains. Otherwise it's just bad marketing, because first it introduces its self as a yuri hero story. But then it's just a hero story with a mess for a plot.

she said in a previous chapter that she will love kaoru forever although that can be true it simply won't be the case in a couple of years, she can still have these affectionate feelings towards her sister in law but they can't be as intense as they used to be

I especially agree with this part 100 percent. This manga presents these unrequired love feelings as a "death" sentence in a way that it's way too pessimistic regarding people's abilities to move on. But that's not true at all. A happy ending would be Uta moving on and being able to love someone else.
Wasting her life without ever being able to love someone else like that is worse than Kaoru never returning her feelings.

can we vote somewhere for "Kaoru snaps gay"? maybe author will just add a glimpse of the brighter future...
so much suffering... it kinda becomes more and more of a depressing as fuck

Them dating isn't the only option for a happy ending. Also, it's very hard to ship them at this point, one of the reasons why you mentioned above. Kaoru is not only weak but also selfish.

Unless Reiichi has actually cheated or it gets revealed he did something bad, I don't see him as an awful person.
Even if he isn't in love with Kaoru, he still cared to a degree about her and married her. Unless Risako just told him to marry her or something.
The fact that he is forgetful, seems to be a part of his character as a whole.
Kaoru is a simple woman to say the least, so I don't really feel like she should/could be with someone much better than him.

Really more a simple "Oh, I see...", and not a conscious attempt to unsettle her.

She kisses Sakura to unsettle her. She does the same to Mayumi. Mayumi was annoying her because she felt she was taking Rin from her. She is the classic Kodama Naoko character and if you've read some other mangas of her, all of them use sneaky ways like this for manipulation.

It's an emotional manipulation tactic meant to make the other person uncomfortable. Just like why she kisses Sakura too. Whether she is actually attracted to her, right now she doesn't kiss her because she likes her.
She uses it to her advantage, knowing it will make them uncomfortable and will drive them on edge or unsettle them.

You do realise you just shifted the goalposts from "help herself" - which was a self-evidently ridiculous demand - to "letting others helping her" right.

I thought it was obvious what I meant by "help herself". It's in the sense of accepting the help others are trying to give her. The teacher is practically chasing her to help her and she goes all "hey do you like Rin-Chan?" as a type of threat.

That stripping scene legit made me say, "um, what" out loud. What the fuck was that even. I guess the author wanted to portray some "deep" "emotional" moment between Haruki and Aya but it just comes across as stupid, pretentious and invasive to me. Haruki is so repulsive and creepy.

And Mochida. She was just an annoying teenager before, but she just crossed the line into unlikeable territory in this chapter. Seriously, these two should just fuck each other and calm their titties. And stop messing with the main characters.

That’s exactly how I felt about Haruki stripping. I felt uncomfortable because it was so random and Aya barely reacting and quickly agreeing to strip was absurd.

I didn't expect her taking off her clothes either. It feels out of place because she had been shutting off Haruki's attempts to talk and hang out, let alone getting naked. It didn't seem like they were that close anymore.
It would make more sense if there was a previous tension built between them.
So I conclude that the author just wanted to add something ecchi, but didn't think about their characterization much.

understand her situation is tough but she also doesn't want to help herself

Way to contradict yourself within a single sentence.

How is that contradicting? She has Rin, the sensei and Sakura trying to help her, but she opts to let her anger on Sakura instead.
There's a point where tough life situations stop being an excuse.

...Aaaand Haruki is ruined too. Can't say I didn't expect that though.
This needs the 'wtf am I reading' tag. That naked scene between Aya and Haruki was out of place and not necessary.

I find it so weird how the students treat Sei who's their teacher so casually and like flashing their boobs telling her this will cheer her up.

I didn't realize this was getting updated because the thread wasn't getting bumped.

Ashima is a little shit. I understand her situation is tough but she also doesn't want to help herself and just passive aggressively wants to drag Sakura down too.
Also are we supposed to ship them? Their story is interesting but they're half sisters and I'm not into incest but whatever.
That kid catching them kissing reminded me of NTR and the guy leaking the pics of the girls almost doing the deed.

This is the most lukewarm story I've seen from Kodama. I think it's fine but not great either, and my main issue is that I find Rin boring and they don't appeal to me as a couple. There isn't much into her character and there is also no morale from her story for the readers.

MacySan posted:

Ohh yeah you completely missed the point. I didn't say I believe that, I said how some Yuri fans think. You don't seem to have scrolled up the conversation much.

I didn't miss the point. You're "attacking" (or pointing at) people who are not worth the time to get angry at, because they are probably a tiny minority of yuri readers.

"This girl is having sex with another girl, it's really exciting, but I consider her a virgin because she didn't experience my powerful dick yet. Then she'll forget about others entirely."

I don't deny that some people may think like that (though that kind of reasoning is beyond me), but I don't think they are worth getting angry at, since they are mostly irrelevant.

There are flat-earthers too.

I wasn't angry nor bitter. This person sounds confused but not ill intended, that's why I replied.

Ohh yeah you completely missed the point. I didn't say I believe that, I said how some Yuri fans think. You don't seem to have scrolled up the conversation much.

MacySan posted:

Is it because there’s no penis and Aya’s hymen is still in tact? If Sei whipped out her strap would that make it count? Or it still won’t matter since it’s not a real penis and there’s no ejaculate?

Basically two women together is not as valid as a man and a woman. Therefore it's ok for a girl to be with another girl because it doesn't count and she will remain a virgin until she meets the guy who will marry her and he will still find her pure.
It's a mindset of why a portion of people like Yuri. They still get to see girls naked, but also maintaining their pure waifu status before graduating and going for guys (who will be the self insert of the reader)

You sound really bitter.

Unless it's sarcasm?

Wut? What part of it sounds bitter? Purity waifu fans exist, I just described the whole mindset.

Is it because there’s no penis and Aya’s hymen is still in tact? If Sei whipped out her strap would that make it count? Or it still won’t matter since it’s not a real penis and there’s no ejaculate?

Basically two women together is not as valid as a man and a woman. Therefore it's ok for a girl to be with another girl because it doesn't count and she will remain a virgin until she meets the guy who will marry her and he will still find her pure.
It's a mindset of why a portion of people like Yuri. They still get to see girls naked, but also maintaining their pure waifu status before graduating and going for guys (who will be the self insert of the reader)

Why do I want Aya to end up with Sei. Sei is an teacher f#%king a highschool girl. Practicality raping Aya unitl she likes it. Not to mention taunting Aya's friend with those pictures. Sei is pretty much a hentai style villain. If Sei was a guy, I would want to beat her with a tireiron. But because Sei is a woman, I'm rooting for her.

At least you recognize the double standards lol. Because she is a woman and less physically threatening, they give the false sense of security. Plus we hear more frequently about males being violent than women.

Yeah, but Sei was the first person to love her completely. She might not have known how to deal with that. And then when Sei ended up going to her guy, she realizes she done messed up.

I think that's a reach at this point. Maybe Yoru will end up being more sympathetic, but not knowing how to deal with it is a stretch. She wouldn't have sex with her if she was so in shock and clueless. She also wouldn't sleep around with many guys, talk about her guy issues with Sei and be away from Sei for 8 years.

It's been more than week since they've met and a lot more has happened since their initial encounter.

More than a week can vary from 2 weeks to 90 years. It was more than a week but not more than a month. Still very soon.

Yeah but Sei admits to not being the sharpest tool in the shed. Originally I thought she was doing it to keep Sei on her hook but now I think she probably thought she could at least give Sei her body if not her heart and believed it might be enough to satisfy Sei.

I think that's excusing her behavior a bit. Even if she isn't very sharp, I don't think they had sex for Sei's shake. She didn't want to let Sei completely off, because she was the only person who loved her. But even if she just felt sorry for her, she should have completely let her move on and not add more to the fuel. Maybe this is bad writing and Sei was so in love with her for no reason with Yoru doing the absolute least, but I'm more skeptical about this version rather than Yoru also consciously contributing to it.

Umm...Are you saying women, especially teenage girls, don't fall for online predators? It'd be great if that was the case but unfortunately, it's not. There's literally countless shows/documentaries/news segments about these kind of things.

Yeah they definitely fall for that, but do they also think that person from the internet is their sole reason to be alive after meeting them for a week? It's way less possible, but not unbelievable. But regarding the writing here, I don't think the main point is whether there is a chance this could happen irl, it's more about feeling too fast and forced from a storytelling pov.

There seems to be an underlying strong homophobia with Mochida and Yoru.

About Yoru, I'm assuming she identifies as straight. So sleeping with a girl (who also has feelings for her) just irks me. It's very damaging to that girl (Sei) because it's like she tells her "look, this is the most you'll ever get for love and I'm doing you a favor". It's kinda reinforced by the fact that she sleeps around with so many guys and she even got married so young. Her being so casual about the guys in front of Sei is like rubbing it into her face that she will never get that because she's not a guy.
Don't know how intentional from the author this is, but I certainly get this undertone here.

Responsibility comes with age, I don't mean it based on the possible outcomes here. It is about what we already know.
Your brain keeps developing until you reach 25. For example, even 21 and 24 makes a difference in the ability of how someone handles a situation.
It is not random that people get to (usually) vote at 18. The brain changes and reaches a certain level of maturity it doesn't previously have. It is based on facts.

Aya chose to mess with Sei too, but that doesn't mean they're equally responsible. People's behavior at 16 changes a lot compared to 24, despite Sei's inability to move on. That inability doesn't mean they're on the same level.
And as we can already see, it's Sei who has the upper hand between them. She is able to mess both with Aya and Haruki.

Adults need assurances too. The desire for a partner who can offer safety, affection, assurance, comfort, intimacy, etc. does not evaporate automatically when we mature.

Everyone has their own struggles and sometimes things they can't get over. From kids to elders. Does that mean they're all on the same level and bare the same responsibility?

Her choices are definitely her own. It seems people gloss over the fact that she knows exactly what’s going on between her and Sei. Sei never promised her a real relationship and Aya herself proposes that Sei call out Yoru’s name instead of her own.

I would agree on that, but the thing here is that there is an unhealthy dynamic between them, solely from the fact that Sei is a teacher and has already been through her first love and she is fully developed emotionally. Sei knows the consequences first hand, yet she choses to drag Aya in. Aya realizes to a certain degree that this is wrong, but her emotional maturity is way behind Sei's and she hasn't developed the mechanisms to face situations like this.
Teenagers are inherently not on the same level and they lack emotional clarity compared to someone like Sei.
The fact that Aya agrees upon this, doesn't mean she is equipped to face it and even walk away. This is where Sei should protect her instead and not use her as emotional crunch.