At the end of the day, whether consciously or subconsciously our brains attach more to negative things than to positive.

Yes, think many studies suggest that's the case; though, I wouldn't say "negative" but "challenging," which can be taken negatively, positively or neutrally (subjectively). Challenging stories, people, events, characters, or plots require more mental work to resolve the challenge (to our morals, interests, worldview, literary senses etc) and people will generally demand/desire to resolve that gap differently, using various explanations. So, I wouldn't say it's just that drama sells. Plenty of dramatic works don't sell and drama is not a negative word (though sometimes here it seems it's become synonymous with "here we go again"). There's a few dramatic works that do become successful though and for a variety of reasons (and even those that do sell aren't equally successful). There's something unique about what each of them are doing writing wise and for their audience. Anyway I agree, the earlier story wasn't challenging in any real sense and thus had a more limited appeal or draw (which can be fine). That's part of why I'm really interested in what the anime does. The (western) anime community is not the same as the manga community or even the community on here. With the way MagiRevo has succeeded and also the Witch from Mercury, I'm interested in how some of these others end up. Based on "drama sells," I guess we predict "Yuri is My Job" to best them all if it gets enough episodes.

last edited at Mar 21, 2023 8:05AM

Aww, but I was having fun. Oh well.

Yeah but people get agitated and start making snarky comments so. I'm still somewhat replying though.

That's one way of measurement amongst many, yes. Remember I'm not arguing that I think this is well written.

Sorry, now I am a little lost. What were you even arguing then? You seemed to deny the claim that the way Shiho is presented in the story versus the way she actually is acting is very inconsistent, which is all I really argued for, all philosophy aside. Whether this inconsistency makes the story good, bad, and if the author intendet it that way can all be topics for future debate. But I don't think we ever established if you even agree or disagree with that assesment.

You came in late. You can go through my comments from the 20th on to see what I was arguing and what I was initially contesting. You could quote something and ask me what I meant if you want. If I did waid into the battle about "quality" the most I said was that the series is better off or improved for having moved in this direction and that some of the other arguments were at their core subjective (*but still valuable), despite the protestations of others. I've however said on multiple occasions that the writing is not nearly perfect, to me. But I wouldn't call my opinions on writing objective. My first comment and main argument earlier was that this shift to Shiho and Ako happened such a long time ago, so I was confused why it still seemed like a fresh wound to some and was still being treated like an arc that would pass. I also talked about how this shift was received by it's core Japanese audience and how that has a lot of worth when discussing writing decisions.

People jumped in and the discussion started shifting and it became clear we'd need a lot more to make sense of it all, which I'm honestly not that interested in. The recent comments from today are about the prevalence of the character type of Shiho in manga and the prevalence of the communal guilt concept in a lot of Asian writing etc. But even that is just going to create more tangents-- some not comfortable with discussing cultural differences and how they might affect what you consider quality or successful writing choices (that's a whole other discussion again and the little I tried to broach the topic it seems I got snark in return?). Would be easier in conversation but this is a lot of typing in between work.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 6:18PM

Series: does a lot of fluff
Ppl: "ugh I wish smth was happening in this plot"
Series: does literally anything that's not fluff
The same fckng ppl: "why's there suddenly stuff happening, where's my fluff"
Series:

It's (mostly) different pockets of people. But that gif was actually hilariously placed! I had to comment on that one lol.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 4:33PM

Aki would not apologize for that. She'd apologize for not being attentive enough to notice Shiho's suffering. I guess you'll bristle at the word suffering? But that's how it could be perceived.

Quite the opposite I love stories about people that face the suffering in their lives and as a result become wiser and stronger like zuko from avatar, I'm not a big fan of characters that justify their actions and bad decisions in life and get rewarded after a slap on the wrist (sometimes not even that) just because some perceived offense

Yeah, we agree there. By "bristle" I meant at the idea that Shiho has actually suffered or could be perceived by some to have suffered from a failure of some sort.

As for Avatar, I'm an Azula fan so maybe that explains my innate, apparent lust for terrible writing and abrasive characters.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 4:12PM

As I said, I've mostly seen the convoluted assumption of indirect guilt as a trope in Asian fiction...

Yes, and why do you think that is?

Probably because I read and watch a lot of Asian fiction.

But I would have thought that was obvious.

Did you really not understand what I was asking or was that meant to be snarky? I'm asking, earnestly.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 3:42PM

I said what she would do in my response. She'll likely do it in the manga (apologize for not noticing etc.) but we'll see. Nurture does not imply dating. Don't understand that extreme.

Shiho made it pretty clear that if aki didn't loved her back she didn't want anything to do with her, I'm not exaggerating when I say that the only option aki had to stop shiho from leaving the band was to date her out of obligation, that's not me making a strawman that literally came from shiho s mouth

Aki would not apologize for that. She'd apologize for not being attentive enough to notice Shiho's suffering. I guess you'll bristle at the word suffering? But that's how it could be perceived.

This is part of that "this author is pleasing their target [Japanese] audience so your criticism is invalid" argument.

Not at all but you're free to take it that way. Subjective is not invalid, but I guess I haven't made that clear enough.

As I said, I've mostly seen the convoluted assumption of indirect guilt as a trope in Asian fiction...

Yes, and why do you think that is?

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 3:04PM

The thought that she had a (culturally debatable) responsibiiity to nurture that relationship as the leader of the band (community) and failed to truly notice her fellow community member's feelings.

Again what exactly was she supposed to do, was she supposed to sacrifice her own love just to prevent shiho from being hurt? Is that what Takeshima eku is implying?

I said what she would do in my response. She'll likely do it in the manga (apologize for not noticing etc.) but we'll see. Nurture does not imply dating. Don't understand that extreme.

I don't buy for a second that blaming yourself for band breaking up in some convoluted way because of falling in love has anything to do with any kind of collectivism. People in real life blame themselves for things they shouldn't all the time (sometimes they even know perfectly well it's illogical and it doesn't make them feel any better), and I'm really surprised that of all things, this is something you guys want to chalk up to cultural differences (which in general I feel like it's often a very overused explanation, as if Japan is some kind of place populated by aliens from outer space).

This, I really don't understand. Yes, no one experiences anything exclusively. Cultural differences are about intensity and frequency, not monopoly. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 2:18PM

What train of thought would lead her to assume it was her fault and that she had a way of preventing this whole mess

The thought that she had a (culturally debatable) responsibiiity to nurture that relationship as the leader of the band (community) and failed to truly notice her fellow community member's feelings; therefore, "failing" as an attentive group member.

Anyway Aki is only taking on her assumed responsibility from a distance. She's not really being blamed, she's blaming herself and maybe a Japanese audience would understand that difference better (and find such more relatable).

Also waiting for that Bloom into You season 2 announcement any day now...

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 1:56PM

I'll feel empty when this is finally done.

I don't understand the complains. A flashback arc using time travel as plot device is just fine. It's not like anything will change between Evy and Elsa. This arc's actual purpose is to learn about Evy and Elsa's past. Remember that it was foreshadowed since way back that they had met as kids and Evy just couldn't remember? Now we're getting to see that.

I see no problems with this.

It's the age old battle.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 12:11PM

It's because Japanese culture is built on top of collectivism, a belief anyone who is part of any group has joint responsability to ensure it remains well and harmonious. And this "group" can be anything, from your class at school to your club to your entire country.
So what does this means for the situation of this manga? Well, Shiho disrupted the band's work for personal reasons, and that's bad. On the flip side, her bandmates were part of the same group as her and thus were also responsible for keeping it harmonious. That means stopping Shiho from descending into negativity and disrupting their work was part of their jobs. They failed to prevent that, so they share some guilt. Thus Aki's reasoning: "If I had noticed Shiho was in love with me, I could have prevented her from leaving and we would still be happily playing in the same band. Since I didn't, it's my fault we are all feeling bad now".

Basically, yeah. Kudos to you for addressing that a bit as a way of explaining why this happens so often in these stories. This is partly why Shiho types come up so regularly and are resolved in similar fashion (with little issue from what I'd consider the core audience). These are still made primarily for a Japanese reader. This is just one of those sensibilities that runs counter to the general independent western bent, so it's interesting when it comes up like this (and predictably will always be hard to swallow culturally). I'm american but have always sympathized with a more community based approach which likely affects how I view these situations. Maybe because I'm from an immigrant family. Would be an interesting experiment to tease out how replicable that would be.

I just read "The Flagrant Flower Blooms With You" (not Yuri) and that's an example of something that deals with the same issues but in a more "mature" way. But the collectivism is clearly still a heavy component (though that story has other themes and issues it's dealing with).

Quite so. Of course, the fact that the story starts by establishing Iori as the cool lone wolf who only deigns to play with the rest of the group on her own terms sets up a rather different, or at least modified, value system for this particular series.

I saw Iori after having just read the recent Grand Blue chapter and had a brain fart.

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 12:13PM

Interesting that they showed some of the happy moments she had with her husband. Narrative has shown a lot of depth to it so far. Really enjoying this.

Grandma has clearly been interested in women far longer than she realizes.

Yeah definitely.

personally i just thought the arc at the orphanage was really boring

Yeah I agree with that. Not boring (it was still cute and a purposeful reprieve/lulling of the audience and characters) but if I had to say anything was "spinning the wheels" that would be it. This seems like we're back on track dealing with the plot of the system, memory loss and Elsa issues (she's already back in the story).

BTW: Did we know that Elsa came from such a barren background before? Maybe I forgot that?

last edited at Mar 20, 2023 9:12AM

I don't think that would be a satisfactory result. Shiho needs to grow a lot as a person, come to terms with why some of her actions were wrong, show accountability, and overcome all her internal conflicts. Otherwise, a potential relationship with Aki would still be built on uncertainty and insecurities, almost certainly leading to more problems.

Not to mention that Aki has to move on from Yori first and fall in love with Shiho.

As I mentioned a while ago, this manga is currently the best selling series in the magazine, with an anime yet to be released, so I assume the author is free to take all the time they need to do whatever they want.

Yeah, they're doing well. So, I agree. It wouldn't surprise me if they take this slow and unravel the other issues as you said. They're getting overwhelming positive feedback which says they're communicating well enough to their audience. That's already been apparent. When I say "get away with" I'm referring to how their core audience would receive it. I could see 1 or 2 of the next chapters focused on their reconciliation, for example. By reconciliation I mean being cordial with one another, not anything major. Then, future volumes could focus on all of the girls growing together in unison. The whole reason for nearly every character's interactions are Shiho and Aki's history and Shiho's quitting; so once that's dealt with we have a clean slate. As I always say, we'll have to see.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 10:50PM

You know the more important thing is the fact isekai future Evie is going to get her 1st kiss now from kid Elsa lol...we know Evie is not the one going for the kiss and Elsa will be the one to initiate the for kiss her knight/Lady in shinning armor for saving her.

Yeah that's certainly on the way, as you say. I've loved this opportunity to flesh out the world more through these events. As you say we already know the "ending," so we're being told to focus on the journey. I'm interested in what other new events or characters we might meet on the way though. Whatever it is, we'll likely get some new information that will help things back in the present. We could be here for a bit. This whole thing is reinforcing her love and forcing her to be active in a serious way.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 10:28PM

No, I am explaining what is. How I feel about the status quo does not factor in yet. You made it sound like my brain just threw dice without me noticing that made me hate Shiho from the get-go, and I then scrambled and made up inconsistencies in order to pretend to have a logical reason to hate her.

We're using "feelings" differently. It's my fault since I try and take shortcuts in order to avoid stretching out these messages further. And anyway there's no point having a philosophical debate in relation to this manga, so as I said I'm leaving it.

I consider a story competently written when it follows it's own rules without mistakes, and when it also nails the emotional beats, characters and themes, then I would call it good. Of course writing is more than following some rules, but competent writing is the bedrock, the foundation. It is necessary to transport the emotional content to the audience without getting lost. If a story nails one of them, but fails at the other, I cannot call it good, when there are so many stories that succeed on both aspects.

That's one way of measurement amongst many, yes. Remember I'm not arguing that I think this is well written.

@Kabu

Shiho telling Aki about her feelings just before the concert. This will probably have a very negative impact on her performance, so I wouldn't be surprised if Laureley wins the competition partly thanks to that.

This part I expected based on the themes the story has tried to play with. I also don't think it matters who wins the competition. It was never really a battle of the bands but between 2 people (stringing along others). That was always positioned as a superficial event--the meat of the issue was her relationship with Aki and the event was just a stand in made up by Shiho to avoid the issue, as is in her character. The event isn't really the climax. It's been in the background for a reason (because even the 2 of them know it's not the real focus).

It probably sounds crazy, but I feel like Yori could be the link to bring them closer again. Himari has tried several times and has always failed (not that it's his fault).

Yeah, not crazy at all. That's definitely plausible. I'm assuming the story will bring Yori more involved now and we'll finally resolve the situation with Aki (which has hung over the story since the beginning). I'd bet that Shiho's abrasive actions pushes the AkiYori much needed discussion. I'm not completely convinced that the story will focus on getting Aki and Shiho together though. But it's left a lot of room to do either.

And while I do believe Shiho and Aki will be a couple at the end, It feels like it's something that's going to take a lot of chapters to be done coherently, so I might be wrong

Yes, to be done coherently. It's possible they start earlier than that though, it's hard to say. There's also the economy of space. I'm not sure how much longer they intend this manga to go. Generally, I favor a more drawn out, slow building of smaller interactions but the writer could probably get away with a quicker resolution, if we go by how other well received manga have handled similar issues. We'll have to see. The next chapter should say a lot about where the manga intends to go from here.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 10:18PM

[Insert this sentence above] I think the notion that criticizing a character’s place in a story’s structure or the relationship of their stated motivations to their represented actions as being a mere matter of the “feelings” one has about the characters or personal “preferences” is quite glib and dismissive, as if readers are simply saying, “I don’t like people like that.”

If that's for me, that's a misreading of what I said. But this has gone on long enough and Vampeerz just came out so I'm leaving this one.

Honestly Aria has explicitly wanted to die like this since the start anyway and who knows maybe the all-knowledge that the the god of Lilus gave her Ichika now knows the secret of like reincarnation or some shit and will be able to find baby Aria just fine.

It'll be an interesting final chapter for sure.

Hey, I proudly own physical volumes of Citrus, so I am with you on that one.

I actually don't have physical versions yet. I wanted the special art book though. I've got physicals for Vampeerz (favorite) and Hello Melancholic though. Speaking of: Vampeerz just dropped!

The argument here is "the story breaks it's own consistency by saying A is true while showing B to be true." That is not a feeling I have, that is me comparing fact A to fact B and spotting contradictions.

The problem is that this does boil down to feelings. You're explaining why you feel the way you do but your feeling comes before your logic and you use your logic to explain. Although I guess we could debate that as well. The point I'm making is I've already said that while this is not a grand experiment in writing, I genuinely do not have the same abrasive reaction to Shiho, nor the same connection to our first introduced pair. I did not read Shiho's intrusion as invasive but a natural process. The story always seemed to be an anthology of sorts that would shift to new pairs as old pairs got together. I hesitate to go into detail because that would require researching my way through the entire manga and I've been avoiding that. Maybe when I have time I can do that. As someone said previously your innate feelings about Shiho is the crux of the issue and to put it simply, I find her and Aki's struggle more compelling when compared to the other rather vanilla pair. The focus on the feelings of others is to make it clear that the story has communicated this same "feeling" in a large enough portion of its audience. This is to say that these feelings are a result of the author's decisions but no author will satisfy everyone. Would the story be well written if it appealed to those here but was hated by most? Since you say it's an exercise in objectivity, I guess you'd say yes--as you say you're arguing for objectively true rules of writing. I'd say no.

Edit: even "measurable" does not change anything. What are you measuring and what's the agreed upon method of measurement? How do you objectively measure? We'll be at this all day. It'll just be semantics. For that matter, let's say we measure partially using audience satisfaction. That's something we can measure much easier but that's been cast aside as "selling out," and "people will like anything that has drama." So what is it, exactly? My experience is that what's "objective" shifts just like something that's subjective. I also don't want to make it seem as though I don't understand general writing guidelines. My profession would make that difficult. They're guidelines determined by there ability to communicate to an audience. Not necessarily objective rules used to objectively measure writing as good or bad. There's more to it than that.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 6:00PM

This is not about preference or taste. It's not something subjective. When something doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense. You can like it all the same, and that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact it doesn't make sense.

So it's been decided. What does it matter that others disagree? Nothing. My feelings just so happen to the objectively correct ones. A few people on the internet makes these decisions. I've gotta join that council.

Sorry, that's my first and last snarky comment. Generally try and avoid it but that one was difficult and I'm sometimes weak.

I'm interested to see what they cover in the anime now. Those discussions will be something.

Also LOL at someone who scoffs at the concept of objectivity calling someone else pretentious.

Who scoffs at objectivity as a whole? The argument is it's difficult to apply in this context, not that it does not exist. The concept isn't even novel within the arts. Many would agree with that idea (and of course some would not). Although pretentious isn't a word I'd use. I agree that's a bit contentious (which this all already has been), plus Citrus was mocked so I'll side with you on that one.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 5:05PM

I'm not going to lie, I only read the first few chapters (I do have read the entirety of the other two), so maybe I shouldn't have included it. My bad.

I'm joking. It's not an issue. It's fine not to like the same stuff. I guess that answers the earlier comment too, since I enjoyed Lonely and Useless for what they were as well (mostly comfort food). But this isn't their thread so.

Edit: awesome, I'll check back for your response later.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 4:22PM

This manga feels like those youtube content farms, where a company broke the algorithm and found a way to produce the cheapest, most brain-dead, lifeless content on the app, but still manage to rake in hundreds of millions of views, because the majority of people consuming media just want to be entertained, and don't care about quality. And while that means giving up your integrity as an artist, at the end of the day, selling to the majority always means more money.

You guys love to act like sophisticated readers, but then we have that Can't Defy the Lonely Girl, Useless Princess, and Citrus are some of the most popular series here. God helps us all.

Hey now lol. I won't stand for Citrus slander. That's my mess and I'm waiting for the new Citrus+ to come out.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 4:17PM

Your reply is definitely the one that has resonated with me. I feel sold to more than anything. Whisper You a Love song is no longer a story that the author wants to tell, but a story that the author thinks the readers want, and since they can't satisfy everyone, they are bound to leave people behind.

This manga feels like those youtube content farms, where a company broke the algorithm and found a way to produce the cheapest, most brain-dead, lifeless content on the app, but still manage to rake in hundreds of millions of views, because the majority of people consuming media just want to be entertained, and don't care about quality. And while that means giving up your integrity as an artist, at the end of the day, selling to the majority always means more money.

This is what I mean. The story is going in a way some don't like so that's evidence that the author is riding trends? How is that not a backhand to the author or treating them as lesser? Who is deciding that this is not the story they want and intend to tell? If anything (based on the comments here) the earlier portions of the manga could be argued as the most liable for following trends. I could already feel the discussions trending this way (which is part of why I even started commenting) but it's unfortunate. It's fine not to enjoy it but that doesn't mean the author is selling out. They're writing a story for people who love writing just as much as everyone else. It's not a decision between being "literary" (as a writer that hurts to say) and liking the story. And lastly, the author is nearly always writing to appease some audience. It's not just when they appease an audience you aren't part of.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 4:28PM

On the other hand, the author could throw a total curveball and have Shiho still WIN the battle… except only after she essentially lost it. They could even argue that she only “won” (performed as well as she did) because she finally came to terms with how she feels. This could in turn be used as a launch pad for our main couple again, should the author want to go there. That’s not quite what I expect and like I mentioned before I think the negativity towards this arc is silly, but it is something that I see as a possibility.

Yes, certainly possible. Good insight. There's not really anything restricting this part of the narrative besides audience considerations ("am I ok with pissing some of them off, or do I want to play it safe?). If the author wants to they have a lot of room to take this different places. Guess we'll see because there's not a lot setup to happen after the event.

Because that seems like an objective claim to me, not a preference.

The point is it's all preference. Few rules in writing that aren't preference at their core. Few rules in general that aren't separated from the audience for which you're writing. But you might disagree with that also--which is fine.

I assume your perspective is not "I dislike fluff and prefer drama, and I don't care about how it is provided."

No I don't bias to "drama," and the way that word is used recently sometimes feels odd to me. I love a lot of "fluff." Honestly, my perspective on the normal discourse (here, at least) is the opposite, which is why I personally observe more complaints about writing quality when fluff is gone. I don't think the writing quality has changed, just the subject and therefore the scrutiny. The earlier portions of the manga were by-the-book, very similar to what's been done and could be done by most Mangaka. This was so much so that the little depth there resolved itself in barely any chapters. This isn't to say that this new stuff is necessarily groundbreaking, btw. The Mangaka could have rested into the typical chapter-by-chapter fluff but they decided to attempt something else (and this shift was initiated very early on and might have been pre-planned). The situation with Shiho and Aki has more inherent depth and direction (you might disagree). There are goals, there. The Mangaka certainly doesn't hit it out of the park (to me) but the story is better for it. Having said that, again, it apparently hits it out of the park for many and the story wasn't written for me, I'm sure. The way Shiho and Aki is written might very well be what's most effective for the target audience's enjoyment and interest (it might be that the original pairing was so vanilla that the core audience doesn't have much issue with their backseat these past few volumes--I like them but who knows). I don't know that audience and I don't know this author's intent. Should they target a different audience their writing decisions might change entirely.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 3:56PM

Do you agree that Shiho does not fit, but don't care? Or do you disagree and simply lack counterarguments.

From a literary perspective, the story is better off for having her in it. Certainly not perfect but better. If anything her and Aki should have been more prevalent sooner. I don't identify with many of these complaints, especially from from a writer's perspective. The earlier writing was more lacking and ran itself into a dead end. If anything the earlier portions seemed more by the book and "necessary" to fit in before the author could write what they fully wanted and before they found their footing (which happens when you write novels but working weekly/monthly means some of the evolution happens in real time). As I said, the only thing they could have (and maybe should have) done differently was set expectations clearer by introducing the two earlier. That way the audience would be finer tuned (meaning they would have shed those who disagreed with the vision) but they've had so much success and have created something that's apparently working for many. My adjustments would not necessarily improve the author's impact, so I don't feel all that comfortable saying what they should have done. I don't even know who their intended audience is, for me to say what they should have done confidently.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 2:27PM