I kinda worried about all the posts that are hard on Kaoru for being demanding/needy/weak. It isn't selfish to ask for help if you need it, and Kaoru doesn't have many people to turn to. She isn't close to her friends and Reiichi and Uta are the only family she has left. She's always tried to go to Reiichi first, and has generally been disappointed.

"don't want to be a burden" is the sort of reasoning you see in suicide notes.

When you are drowning isn't the right time to start shopping around for swimming lessons - you take what help you can get, lessons in self-reliance are for when the crisis is over.

Kaoru hasn't tried to monopolise Uta's time, she hasn't been jealous or demanding, she hasn't taken anything Uta wasn't willing to give. She even managed to give her space for months, and stopped herself she she finally did succumb to the urge to call.

Of course it does place a bit of a burden on Uta knowing Kaoru relies on her, but she's been doing it (happily) for years so it isn't really outside her comfort zone. Kaoru hasn't been leaning heavily: she hasn't asked Uta to solve her problems, for the most part she hasn't even told her about them (only the vaguest references to cracks in her marriage). She has just looked for company when she is lonely, the occasional hug, and when things are bad, a shoulder to cry on.

It is a two way street - Kaoru and Reiichi took Uta in when things were bad with her parents. It isn't always fair or perfectly balanced but families (and friends) take care of each other.

I don't see any happy ending with any of the "main pairing". Just gotta see this through till the end.

It is true that there doesn't seem to be a sensible course of events where Uta and Kaoru end up together, there are too many common sense obstacles.

The story has dwelt a lot on the nature of love and the folly of common sense and respectability. Konatsu's nurse wounding them both deeply by "doing the right thing", Kuroe and Miyabi finding their own unique kind of relationship, Uta's parents causing emotional carnage by going though the motions of being a "proper family" without any feeling behind it (Kaoru feeling guilty for wanting her husband to keep her company occasionally).

I don't think we are headed for a conventional ending, but we might get a happy unconventional one - either Uta and Kaoru finding a way to care for each other outside romance, or Kaoru and Uta getting together in defiance of all convention and common sense (possibly aided by Risako, who has said she admires Kaoru's ability to live out her emotions).

Karou's behavior is making more and more sense. Her crush on an idealized fantasy of Reiichi when she was a teen wasn't too much of a stretch considering how lonely she was, but the question was why she didn't grow out of it. Now we see why, she had more or less moved on, but when she was imploding trying to handle adult life alone and the loss of her mother, Reiichi stepped directly into the fantasy role, right down to promising to always be there for her, he led her on, it wasn't all in her head.
(as usual Uta beat him to it, with better follow though)

She was "saved" by her relationship to Reiichi, now she is realising that it wasn't real, and it hurts.

I could be totally wrong about that, but I have a gut feeling that it's time for a development like that... no matter how much it will annoy me. I sense a kiss... or at least some very horrible choice of words that will trap Uta again.

"You love me, right? So you will stay with me. You won't leave me alone again... I will even give you what you want." Ahhh why does my brain auto-complete this kind of melodrama!

I've been agreeing with your posts on this for the most part (saving me the effort of making a lot of points). That Uta hasn't really "reversed"; letting go of her feelings wasn't ever something she wanted, it was something she thought she ought to do, and now she has revised that. Self discovery is a big part of being a teenager.

In the case of the "auto-complete melodrama" though, so far we haven't seen any sign of Kaoru doing any sort of premeditated manipulation (not even subconsciously), she does occasionally succumb to selfish impulses, like wanting things to stay the same, but not plans like trying to trap Uta or lying to her.
She made one hang-up call, and Uta came running, so she has no reason to be insecure about Uta's devotion. Every time she as asked for support Uta has come though (and many times she didn't even need to ask), contrast all the times she has reached out to Reiichi and been turned down.

I think it is more likely to be another impulse thing - eg she is so relieved/grateful to Uta that she tries to "give her what she wants" in thanks, rather than as some effort to control her. Uta's next step to maturity may well be to see that happening, and gently tell her she doesn't have to anything in return, that she is there for Kaoru because she wants to be.

I hate that. Solve your problems in private, not in public. It got stolen, yeah that sucks but you can go and ask the person in question. I believe there is enough thing to contact PirahnaPlant to not talk about it here. Personally i don't care who translate it as long as it's good.

Why should I contact people who never contacted me about something that was apparently a manga my team was working on it? I'll talk in public about it as much as I want cause it was disrespectful. And u bet they were the same brats who attacked us on our Facebook page

Besides it was already an issue in the forum before you commented. While it would have been polite for PirahnaPlant to try and coordinate efforts, they are free to do as they wish. Dynasty were the ones that had a working relationship with CT so really should have checked in with them.

I hope it was a mistake/misunderstanding, and I hope CT will wait for an official response before deciding on anything too drastic.

I'm not sure I'd see the "ownership" as absolute, but the lack of consultation certainly seems rude (especially since it sounds like CT despite being busy were almost done, I can see how that would be very annoying for them). I mean, how hard is it to message someone?

It is frustrating when chapters are slow, but it is even worse when a series gets abandoned part way, and CT seem pretty reliable. I just hope this doesn't end up going from one translation team to two to zero.

There are so many good series out there than need translating (hint, hint) it would be sad to end up fighting over one.

Overall Reiichi seems well intentioned, but apathetic. He was uninterested in Kaoru before, then suddenly did a 180 to passionately declare his determination to stand by her, but reverted to type after... I'm beginning to suspect somebody put him up to it, either Risako or his mother.

One thing I really like is how naturally dominant Ayako is when she's in the right kind of mood. and how she doesn't even realize it. Her instincts kick in and she is total aggressor on Asuka. It's extremely sexy.

Especially considering how insistent Asuka gets about doing things with Ayako, for Ayako to flip the tables on her is just... very nice.

Completely agree. As aggressive as Asuka can be, when Ayako gets going I definitely see her being the more dominate of the two. For example in chapter 13.1a. I think this gives us a pretty good idea of what is to come.

Asuka has her moments too .... suspect the long term pattern will be switching, they are very much alike ;)

I'm hoping there is a scene where Asuka talks about some past stuff with her mom, and her perspective on certain events. I can see Ayako dying of embarrassment with the realisation of what her playful motherly scolding looked like for Asuka, and how close she came to accidentally making her innocent 14yo daughter come.

I hope this relationship won’t turn out like Dear My Teacher, where they both are waiting for Asuka to turn of age and time is lagging in the story and jumps to the end where they get together officially

I wouldn't mind if it followed DMT in the aspect that it continued after they got together, following them working out life as a couple (though hopefully with more frequent chapters).

As for waiting, I'm pretty sure Asuka won't stand for that. Besides in DMT the delay meant they were no longer student and teacher, Ayako will always be Asuka's mother, waiting won't change that.

I wonder if they will remember their agreement to buy a new bed to share.

I've been wondering about the bed for a while. "buying a bed together" is such a cliche that it is also a euphemism. Obviously at the time it served to demonstrate how deeply Ayako was in denial. Not only being ok with their arrangement continuing on a long term basis, but actually making plans to do it in comfort.

When I first read it I assumed they would probably shop for the bed while Ayako was still in denial, but it would arrive after the revelation to confront them with what they were doing... 'if we accept this it means we are really going though with it' moment.

We haven't had another reference to it, and it is a bit late for it to be pre-realisation, so maybe it will turn out to have just been for that scene... although I suppose they could have done the shopping/ordering off-screen.

It could be pretty fun... Ayako gets home from work to find Asuka unusually exuberant... "Hey mom, guess what happened today"... throws open her bedroom door, throws herself on the bed and poses "***our*** bed arrived!" (big grin).

(mood reasoning: With confirmation Ayako feels the same way as she does (even if they aren't supposed to be acting on it), Asuka is going to be on cloud nine for a while... I wonder what Rui will make of it)

I suppose there could also be a call back much later, going bed shopping as a sign Ayako has completely accepted their relationship (along with some "I can't believe I was that oblivious" reminiscing).

Out of curiosity, how did Ayako confess in Japanese? Was it daisuki or was it aishiteru or something else?

飛鳥
あなたのことが好きよ

Asuka
anata no koto ga suki yo

If she just wants to talk calmly about this without rejecting Asuka's romantic feelings, I don't see why she would say "I love you" right off the bat.

I think it has a double meaning. It seems like they are headed for a very serious mother-child emotional talk, opening with a reassuring "I love you" is almost obligatory for this (just like love/like in English, the connotations of suki in Japanese are dependent on context, so Ayako's declaration is a bit pointed in context, but not unambiguous what kind of love). This part applies whatever direction she is intending to go with the talk.

It may also be a warmup, the first shot at a clearer statement. I think she has decided to admit her feelings to Asuka (if she is thinking clearly, or at all, she will have realised that, especially after the night before, Asuka must have some inkling about her changed feelings, so there is no point trying to lie about it).

Of course, that doesn't mean she is comfortable with the idea of acting on those feelings. We didn't see any sign she bought that part of Akira's argument, only the part that leaving Asuka hanging was hurting her.

I referred to "closed" because that was the term the post I was responding to use, but the term I used later was the broader idea of defensive. Crossed arms are often described as a barrier, but barriers can be defensive as well as aggressive (aggressive posture can also be a sign of trying to overcome fear). In ch6 Ayako still felt in control, she was just "dealing" with something Asuka did, her own feelings weren't "on trial".

Agreed in that Ayko's body language doesn't look like she has rushed home to passionately declare her love and sweep Asuka off her feet. But it doesn't seem likely she has some cool headed distancing plan prepared either. She panicked when her boss even suggested they might grow apart.

More like Ayako has come home to "face the music". She is steeling herself to admit to her daughter that she has sexual feelings towards her, that they have to stop, that, as she sees it, she has failed as mother.. but it seems likely Asuka is going to argue pretty strongly against the last part, and as for the middle one, Ayako never has been good at saying no to her daughter...

Random tangent: when writing this I realised "platonic" really isn't the right word to describe something as visceral as the mother-child bond.

last edited at Apr 4, 2020 8:58PM

Well I'm not into it in and of itself, but I think that is the way it works in the story, and I like the unconventional angle in that.
[...] both of them the word is symbolic of their specialness to each other... I really don't think either of them will be pushing for Ayako's first name to replace it, especially not in the bedroom.

Let me tell ya, you ARE into that through and through. Just confess.

Lol, ya got me. In terms of this story definitely, it's not just conceptually interesting, it's hot too. That is one of the things that makes it good.

Incest isn't something I'm "into" irl, except as a rights issue. People construct their own little worlds, and stories give us a chance to take a look into a different world. To fully experience these worlds needs at least a little empathy with the players. For a world were mother and lover are blurred, that empathy is going to be a little erotic (I'll admit that I've given some, ahem, thought to possible scenarios when Asuka and Ayako finally get together).

Porn has generally enjoyed a lot of protection as artistic expression, simply because there is no objective way to draw a clear line. The erotic is part of the human experience.

More generally I'd summarise my taste as transgression and transformation, stories about breaking the mold. My reading/watching/writing list does include a fair bit of incest (it's basically our leading "harmless" taboo), but there are lot of other things in there too, sexual and non-sexual (and things that blur the line, like Kusanagi's self-objectification in Ghost in the Shell).

What I mean about not being incest itself, is that at least for me "throwing in" a little incest doesn't make a mediocre story interesting, it is about making it convincing, and going somewhere with it.

Am I the only one that likes Asuka calling Ayako “Mom” or is it just me..

Well I'm not into it in and of itself, but I think that is the way it works in the story, and I like the unconventional angle in that. It is a really interesting place to be. Ayako loves being Asuka's mom, and Asuka loves Ayako being her mom; it isn't separate from their romantic feelings, it's woven together into a single thing. Asuka is the only person in the world for whom Ayako is "Mom" so for both of them the word is symbolic of their specialness to each other... I really don't think either of them will be pushing for Ayako's first name to replace it, especially not in the bedroom.

I'm hoping it goes a lot further than a word, and Taiyaki is going to dig deep on the layered emotional significance as their relationship evolves. Familiar/unfamiliar, maternal/erotic; a duality in everything they do together.

The only scenario I can see for using Ayako's name is if at some point in the future they are trying to "pass" as a normal couple... even then I think Asuka would probably just call her mom and pass it off as a joke about the age difference.

Asuka's thoughts about how much Ayako has given up for her could have a non-obvious angle - if Ayako does try to shut things down, Asuka may recognise it as another attempt at self-sacrifice for her sake, and call her out on it (when otherwise she has been trying to be more considerate of Ayako's needs).

I'm concerned over how Ayako was incredibly calm and collected when confessing to Asuka. I'd wager she's about to start the next statement with "...but." I think she'll try to distance herself, after all.

Yep, I so thought the same. It's just not possible for her to say: "Yes I love you, now my daughter, we should calmly head toward the bed and proceed scientifically to the logical outcome."

I can NOT fathom this.

You're right, I don't think this will end well, at least not short-term.

I just re-read this, and just noticed that Ayako's arms are crossed while admitting she loved Asuka. So, she's deadpan and exhibits a closed body language. She might have acknowledged she loves Asuka, but emotionally she's already put miles of distance between them. Now, if she'll also try to physically distance herself, that remains to be seen.

I can certainly see this being the case but I really hope shes just setting the tone for an important conversation they need to have about how to progress from this point on.

She was "closed" when she was curled up in a corner at Akira's place too. She didn't rush back because she was convinced what she feels/did is ok, she rushed back because running away would hurt Asuka. She probably doesn't even have a plan. It seems like she is now aware of her feelings, and has probably decided to confess, but she is still ashamed/anxious about it, so defensive body language is to be expected (Ayako isn't particularly open or expressive at the best of times).

I think it is likely heading for a talk, which could be very interesting, since Ayako has no previous experience with falling in love, and has only just realised her own feelings, it probably hasn't occurred to her yet that Asuka is feeling the same things she is. That revelation could have rather big implications for what "not hurting Asuka" means.

This trainwreck of a thread is a pretty solid counter argument to the "people can enjoy a bad thing in fiction without normalizing it in real life" argument. People will look at an extremely romanticized fictional portrayal of something and then turn around and act like it's at all representative of the reality of that situation. Also, good god stop comparing incest to LGBT relationships you absolute loons.

Others have defended the moral reasoning, but I think there is another thing that needs to be pointed out.

In general we haven't been comparing incest to LGBT activity directly, but have actually been comparing (irrational) prejudice against incest to (irrational) prejudice against LGBT behaviors - the prejudice is largely unfounded, so comparing it says very little about the comparison between the targeted behaviors.

There are common themes that can be found, but they are at the most fundamental level - about privacy and freedom of choice, and apply to a whole range of human interactions.

Finally with respect to normalisation, I can't speak for everyone, but I have a long standing interest in ethics, and a fondness for stories of forbidden love, secrets, unusual passions and love in unexpected places. I on the lookout for thoughtful, well written incest romance stories years before I ever found any (among other things, I'm not just interested in incest).

By looking at "best case" stories where incest isn't a problem, we can come to better understand what the real problems are with the bad cases... you may see incestuous sexual abuse, but surely the problem is incestuous sexual abuse.

Look at the BDSM community - you see discussions and deep understanding about consent there far beyond the norm - because they play on the edges, assumptions and generalisations aren't good enough - they have to deal with the reality.

1x1/2 is a rare jewel - not only does it take the issues seriously, it is well written with likable characters and a light self-deprecating humour that makes it a pleasure to read.

I'm surprised that no one commented on Asuka having a habit of kissing sleeping Ayako on the lips since she was like... seven?

It's not really that remarkable, the boundaries between types of kisses are pretty arbitrary and culture specific... which kids largely ignore. Kissing on the lips is intimate but not that unusual between mother and young child... if she had still been breastfeeding at seven that might have raised some eyebrows (though it happens sometimes too, generally without incestuous subtext).

Traditionally, as eldest daughter (even more so as only child), Asuka was already "meant" to be living with Ayako for the rest of her life. First caring for Asuka's children together, then with Asuka caring for Ayako in her old age... kind of neat how little it would change from that as a couple.

Yeah I think what you say is how it will go down (at least I hope so). But I do believe that even though Akira is trying to help, if she realizes the situation between Ayako and Asuka won't work out, she will take advantage of it for herself if Ayako seems receptive to it.

I think you are right in terms of Akira's personality in general, opportunism certainly fits. But specifically in the case of her feelings for Ayako there is something more going on there, we still have that unexplained reference in ch 8 "For me not even a lifetime would be enough to earn the right to be in love with Ayako"; even for more superficial things, I don't think she would be ok with anything happening unless she was sure Ayako really wanted it, not just as a distraction.

Despite her joking around she seems to care very deeply for Ayako, so will probably choose what seems best for Ayako, rather than for herself.

On a lighter note Asuka's "mom-sense" should be going crazy at this point.

Oh wow, after reading the raws you provided This is about to get crazy, like we knew Akira has feelings for Ayako for a while now but I never thought she would make a move on her own. I'm going to assume though given how helpful she has been to both Asuka and Ayako, that part of her motivation for this is to help her awaken to her emotions. And then if Ayako doesn't, then hoping things would work out with her. It also seems like we may finally get some more backstory on what went down between Ayako, her husband, and Akira that makes her still feel guilt. Also Asuka's reaction to thinking about the night before is pretty relatable to how I'm sure we all felt when Ayako made a move on Asuka on her own. This series so so good, and I'm loving the ride. I can't wait till the next update.

Interesting idea about Akira playing both sides, I suppose it could go that way, but for the moment I'm inclined to go with the idea she is just (dramatically) trying to prove a point... when Ayako smacks her down (or otherwise fails to respond positively) she is going to point out how different her reaction to Asuka is, and argue that difference proves she feels something
(edit: thanks shadesofgreymoon, I didn't even notice the space the first time... then started adding and removing other spaces, still not sure how I missed the right combo)

last edited at Mar 21, 2020 10:23PM

All of Ayako's worries stem from this misconception: she's amalgamating "correct" and "normal" and "right" with "going with the crowd, doing just what everyone does." This is a horribly toxic and dangerous way of thinking that has historically lead to the damning of homosexuality, polyamory and miscegenation (to name only a few). Ayako has persuaded herself that her feelings are wrong because society would disapprove of them. This is bad and sucks big time.

Very well put. I think there is also a note of puritanism, that things involving sex are somehow intrinsically corrupt in a way other activities aren't (actually that could sort of apply to most of the items on your list). That sex, especially pleasurable sex, is come sort of irrevocable corruption. People, apparently including Ayako, get hung up on the sin thing and lose track of whether or not there are real harms.

As others have put it, situational ethics. Looking at the context of the particular case, not grasping at some universal rules about right and wrong.

Asuka and Ayako enjoy what they are doing and they are both willing participants (Asuka in particular has had a very clear idea of what she wants for a long time... we are probably due for her to explain to her mother how long and how deep her feelings run). In many ways it is very nice that they both have an opportunity to explore their first romantic experience with the person they love and trust most in the world. A bit like lending money or going into business together it only has to harm their family relationship if they let it.

The age thing is more of an issue than the incest. Self knowledge wise, sixteen is worlds better than 12 or 14; it's true 16 year olds still fall a bit short of full adult decision making capacity (whatever that is worth), but Asuka isn't considering international treaties, pregnancy or a facial tattoo... it is just exploring her feelings with a woman she loves and desires... well within teenage decision making capacity.
tbh I hope the question they consider is not "is this true love?", which neither of them is experienced enough to answer, and taken seriously would be a commitment too far for Asuka's age, but just "is this what we want to do, now?"

‘Whats the problem with mothers and daughters being together?’ Well let me think...EVERYTHING

Like what? Be more specific.

The inherent power imbalance between an authority figure and the person they have authority over (one could argue the power imbalance between parent and child is one of the biggest possible depending on their dynamic), the issue of grooming a minor (for example via sexual abuse as a child). Like there are reasons incest is taboo beyond fear of birth defects that aren't just squeamishness and a lot (likely the vast majority) of close family incest is sexual abuse.

Those aren't things intrinsically wrong with mother/daughter incest, just bad roads that lead there... they could apply to non-incestuous pairings too... and don't really apply to this particular case. Even power dynamic is blurred since Asuka is arguably more self-possessed and (emotionally) experienced than Ayako is (and if anything Ayako's lack of sexual interest/activity would have been the opposite of grooming).

There is a difference between something being risky/unwise, or commonly associated with wrong-doing, and actually being wrong in and of itself. Incest isn't something people should aspire to, but if they happen to find themselves there (consensually) it doesn't have to end badly (and even if it does, arguably the same applies as to non-incestuous relationships... it is their mistake to make).
Obviously they have to be careful and considerate about how they proceed, but it appears they are both capable of that.

Stats wise, the true incidence of incest is hard to determine because people keep it secret, but one dataset that comes up is a survey of New England college students (Finkelhor, 1980) where 15% of females (10% males) reported having had some form of sexual contact with a sibling... the researchers' analysis classified only a quarter of those as exploitative, ie three quarters, one might say, "the vast majority", where non-exploitative. It is likely exploitation is a higher proportion of parent-child interactions, but sibling interactions are thought to be much more common, so it is probably safe to say most close-family incest is innocuous. You only hear about it when abuse occurs (likewise could conclude most heterosexual interaction is rape since that is what you see most on the news).

One of the top qualifications for a taboo is that it is something most people don't want to do themselves, and can't understand others wanting to do. This allows people to identify taboo breakers as "other". eg the massive taboo over homosexuality (past, and even into the present in many places), or BDSM, transgender, etc.

Don't mess with Mama Bear.

also the discussion is going to be a mess because akira is about to defend the morality of incest. lol she called ayako a lolicon

oh god no i can already see 40 pages on here talking about this

Please no. There are already 100% too many treatises about "I, as a virtuous and respectable human being, of course loathe incest, but (justification essay follows)"

How about "I, as a virtuous and respectable human being, of course do not loathe incest"? (justification essay omitted... unless I'm provoked ;). tbh "virtuous and respectable" doesn't really fit me (ethical, maybe), but I couldn't resist the line.

More on topic ... Lolicon sort of works as a tease, since Asuka isn't much of a loli