I don't think Mizuki's sexuality is important in this context. Clearly what she takes issue on is the fact that Tsuzuki doesn't treat love as seriously as she does. That seems to be her main dilemma rather than being gay or what.

Is it love that Mizuki takes that seriously, or just the concept of weddings?

Probably both. Or more precisely, she seems to believe a perfect wedding is the natural result of the perfect love. Heck, she said so herself here:

"She really loves her boyfriend, and her boyfriend really loves her too. I'm sure it will be a fabulous ceremony, like an explosion of bliss."

The concept of a perfect wedding and perfect love are deeply intertwined in her mind. In a way, this explains why she's not all that into her own wedding. Meaning, she probably isn't all that into her boyfriend to begin with.

But a much more interesting question is how this concept applies to Tsuzuki. Was Mizuki just projecting on Tsuzuki and then unilaterally getting disappointed when it turned out Tsuzuki didn't fit into her preconception? That's part of it, of course. But maybe Tsuzuki is actually more similar to Mizuki than meets the eye. Maybe Tsuzuki's sorta lack of interest in her wedding also hints a lack of interest in her lovers. Chapter 3 did kinda suggests she got together with these dudes simply because they were the first ones who understood and sort of shared her approach to relationships. But I didn't get the sense that she truly loves them.

last edited at Apr 2, 2022 10:45PM

You know its an Akiyama Haru work when all the weirdos come out of the woodwork to argue about random shit sheesh

Anyways, she’s so very clearly in love with her and obsessed, I’m just wondering where the author is gonna take it. The obvious (to me) route is that she’s a repressed lesbian who only is marrying her boyfriend out of obligation, and she’s gonna realize that, break up, and have some funny romance times with our poly gal here (although not necessarily in that order), but with the way this story has been going I can’t really predict what’s gonna happen.

I don't think Mizuki's sexuality is important in this context. Clearly what she takes issue on is the fact that Tsuzuki doesn't treat love as seriously as she does. That seems to be her main dilemma rather than being gay or what.

Also, a point that no one has brought up yet is that while Tsuzuki claims she loves both her lovers, she doesn't seem as drawn to them as she is to Mizuki. At the very least that's the impression I got from chapter 3. She got together with her current lovers because they seemed to be the only ones who would agree to a poly relationship. But her curiosity and attraction towards Mizuki seems fundamentally different. To start with, she lied to Hiroki went he suggested it was love at first sight. She dismissed the idea, yet in her head she can't shake off her curiosity and attraction towards Mizuki. And even after learning Mizuki doesn't dig her way of life, she's still drawn to her all the same. Just look at this chapter. She took off her dress right away and went after Mizuki in a hurry, leaving one of her lovers alone. Although I doubt he would have a problem with that considering his NTR fetish. lol

last edited at Apr 2, 2022 5:27PM

I wouldn't put Chen and Ren at the same level here. Ren is just a friend that Youzi ships with her mom but Chen actually seems really close with the mom.

Oh boy do I have news for you in the next chapter ;)

That's funny considering I read up to chapter 8 already and my opinion hasn't changed. lol

last edited at Mar 29, 2022 10:56AM

Kazu-kun posted:

You're missing the point. The story was shit not because Yukino was an asshole and got scot free. That's not what I meant.

You sure?

The problem with the writing is the Akiyama did mean for Yukino to get character growth but he didn't provide the heavy-lifting for that to feel earned. That's why having a character face the consequences of their actions is important. It's not a matter of morality. It's a matter of narrative internal logic. If a character doesn't face the consequence of their actions, the narrative can't justify their personal growth properly. And that's what happened with Yukino. Her character growth at the end feel forced rather than a logical consequence of her character journey.

Kazu-kun posted:

Most people who liked Octave didn't understand it either, since the only translation available was pretty bad.

I read it in Japanese and personally, I thought it was trash. It was the story of a very narcissistic person whose idea of what she deserved clashed with reality, resulting in her being self-absorbed and selfish. That's not a bad premise in and of itself. The problem is Yukino never faced the consequences of her actions. For example, when she cheated, she was forgiven right away because Setsuko blamed herself. We can argue whether Setsuko was to blame or not, but it doesn't change the fact Yukino got away scot free. And it's exactly because of that reason that she didn't grow as person until the very end. When the author tried to sell us on the idea that Yukino had finally grown the fuck up, it ended up feeling forced and unearned.

Sounds to me her being a asshole who wasn't punished is your main problem

Not exactly. Like I said, the problem is not the moral issue of Yukino getting scot free. The problem is the lack of internal logic due to lack of consequences. It might seem like it's all the same to you, but it's not. And that's all I'm gonna say about Octave on this thread.

last edited at Mar 25, 2022 5:36PM

Fukunaga has an NTR fetish. He gets a kick out of seeing his loved one with someone else. That's interesting.

I gotta give Akiyama some credit here. Other authors usually have characters who are initially averse to polyamory relationships because they're understandably jealous when they see their loved ones with someone else, but they eventually have a "change of heart" and get into polyamory anyway. Manga written by Canno come to mind. That's super unrealistic imo. I don't think feelings like jealousy can change that easily. Humans simply don't work that way. I think people like Tsuzuki who simply don't feel jealousy at all, are more likely to find happiness in polyamory relationships. And maybe people with an NTR fetish like Fukunaga. lol

So yeah, so far so good. Let's hope Akiyama won't screw this up. I think whatever happens between Tsuzuki and Mizuki will make or break it. Like, Mizuki seems to have a thing for Tsuzuki but definitely doesn't dig the polyamory stuff. Are we gonna have to swallow the unrealistic and dreaded "change of heart" here too? I sure hope not.

last edited at Mar 25, 2022 5:26PM

Story gives me bad vibes, so I'll be very caution with checking it out. Will probably not really follow it.

malibus88 posted:

Since this is well know retarded cheating lover kind of author of what we remember being done in Octave, we can bet both girls will sleep with guys around before settling for each other in end configuration or something.

Good to know you didn't understand Octave at all.

Most people who liked Octave didn't understand it either, since the only translation available was pretty bad.

I read it in Japanese and personally, I thought it was trash. It was the story of a very narcissistic person whose idea of what she deserved clashed with reality, resulting in her being self-absorbed and selfish. That's not a bad premise in and of itself. The problem is Yukino never faced the consequences of her actions. For example, when she cheated, she was forgiven right away because Setsuko blamed herself. We can argue whether Setsuko was to blame or not, but it doesn't change the fact Yukino got away scot free. And it's exactly because of that reason that she didn't grow as person until the very end. When the author tried to sell us on the idea that Yukino had finally grown the fuck up, it ended up feeling forced and unearned.

And that’s what stories are, folks—blame games. If someone acts badly and isn’t punished sufficiently, that’s a bad story. And if someone suffers disproportionately according to the amount of “blame” they have earned, that’s a bad story.

I’m not sure what the relative quality of the translation has to do with the apportionment of blame and punishment required to be meted out to fictional characters whose behavior one disapproves of. Even we stupid readers who accepted the available translation and liked the story could see that Yukino cheated and yet somehow was not forced to endure the emotional equivalent of wearing sackcloth and ashes.

You're missing the point. The story was shit not because Yukino was an asshole and got scot free. That's not what I meant. The problem with the writing is the Akiyama did mean for Yukino to get character growth but he didn't provide the heavy-lifting for that to feel earned. That's why having a character face the consequences of their actions is important. It's not a matter of morality. It's a matter of narrative internal logic. If a character doesn't face the consequence of their actions, the narrative can't justify their personal growth properly. And that's what happened with Yukino. Her character growth at the end feel forced rather than a logical consequence of her character journey.

Of course this isn't a problem if you don't intend your character to get any character growth. Statics characters are a thing. And if there is no growth, there is no need for the heavy-lifting required to justify that growth either. But that's not where Akiyama was going with Yukino.

As for this manga, it seems way better than Octave already. Mostly because the characters are openly shitty people. THIS type of a story is all about how deep the rabbit hole can get. I like that.

last edited at Mar 22, 2022 3:23PM

It's not that hard to understand, actually. The backstory is fairy simply. At some point in the past a huge earthquake made almost all landmasses of the world sink into the ocean. Now only a tiny portion of Japan is left. In other words, this is a post-apocalyptic world.

There is a supernatural element too. Spirits of the death and other supernatural entities seem to dwell in the sea. Probably the spirits of people who died during the earthquake or other disasters. The characters who are aware of these spirits call them "sea oddities."

Minato, the protagonist, is special because she seems to be possessed by a mermaid sea oddity. Maybe this is the reason she can see the true nature of the sea oddities around her.

Now in the latest chapters they introduced the two major factions at the academy. The Halcyon team who seem to regard the sea oddities as curses from the sea and are openly hostile towards them. The Halcyon team seem to be the main faction in the academy, sort of like a student council. On the other side there's the Guardian Club. They seem to have a more positive view on sea oddities. The president of the Guardian Club got interested in Minato since she saw her mermaid possession sea oddity in chapter 3, and they recruited Minato into the club.

I take it the rest of the story will focus on the ongoing conflict between the Halcyon team and the Guardian club, with Minato at the center of it all.

last edited at Mar 22, 2022 3:51PM

People seem to have forgotten we already saw Shiho's past [...]

Well, yes. But we still don't know what actually happened to cause the rift between her and the band. This is the part everyone's still wanting to see.

Wasn't it shown in chapter 20 perhaps? Shiho wasn't satisfied with ss girls band performance, then she and Aki had an argument, that ended up with Aki slapping Shiho and then her quitting : P

Pretty sure there's more to it, seeing how Shiho is still refusing to talk about it. Which sparked the battle of bands in the first place.

Shiho doesn't want to talk about it probably because her reasons are dumb. At best, she was in love with Aki and threw a tantrum out of jealousy. At worst, she did it simply because she couldn't stand she wasn't Aki's number one.

There's a reason we were shown her past from before Shiho met Aki. It established that Shiho has been a huge bitch from the get go so we shouldn't expect her to have sympathetic justifications for her current actions.

last edited at Mar 21, 2022 1:54PM

People seem to have forgotten we already saw Shiho's past, and it wasn't pretty or sympathetic. It showed Shiho has been a huge bitch even before she met Aki.

Back then she had a friend but the moment she realized her friend was better than her at an instrument they both played (was it violin?) she got angry and bitchy and ruined their friendship.

Honestly, I don't think the problem right now is so much that Shiho is in love with Aki. I don't think she is. I think she just can't deal with the fact she wasn't number one in Aki's life. She has a pathological need to be number one, to be the best. That's all there is to it.

She's petty and selfish and there's no redeeming quality to her.

last edited at Mar 20, 2022 7:20PM

Story gives me bad vibes, so I'll be very caution with checking it out. Will probably not really follow it.

malibus88 posted:

Since this is well know retarded cheating lover kind of author of what we remember being done in Octave, we can bet both girls will sleep with guys around before settling for each other in end configuration or something.

Good to know you didn't understand Octave at all.

Most people who liked Octave didn't understand it either, since the only translation available was pretty bad.

I read it in Japanese and personally, I thought it was trash. It was the story of a very narcissistic person whose idea of what she deserved clashed with reality, resulting in her being self-absorbed and selfish. That's not a bad premise in and of itself. The problem is Yukino never faced the consequences of her actions. For example, when she cheated, she was forgiven right away because Setsuko blamed herself. We can argue whether Setsuko was to blame or not, but it doesn't change the fact Yukino got away scot free. And it's exactly because of that reason that she didn't grow as person until the very end. When the author tried to sell us on the idea that Yukino had finally grown the fuck up, it ended up feeling forced and unearned.

But who knows, maybe this manga will actually be good. I think the fact that both MCs are shown to be shitty people from the get go is a good thing. As long as the author doesn't try to justify it by shifting the blame to the guys, that is. But I'm not holding my breath on that.

I actually like this development provided the author has the balls to stick to it. A relationship with Yuriko was impossible so getting together with Rio could be good for Matoi.

I could do without the obnoxious guy though.

last edited at Mar 18, 2022 9:21PM

I'm kinda baffled by this series more than anything, because even though there are hints the mom is actually gay (her flop sweat when the kid doesn't buy her explanation, her insistence that getting remarried is impossible), and it'd be weird considering the audience this is going for if no one was gay, the entire joke seems to hinge on the mom not actually being gay, and she definitely isn't really into Chen or Ren.

I wouldn't put Chen and Ren at the same level here. Ren is just a friend that Youzi ships with her mom but Chen actually seems really close with the mom. Besides, Chen's the one that shows up in all the promo pictures.

I think the real point of the story is that while Youzi ships her mom with all sort of beauties out there, specially Ren, the only one with any real chance in Chen, which is ironically the only one that Youzi doesn't see as potential partner for her mom. lol

Another classic moment in this epic trainwreck when Maki says, “I wonder if one day I’ll become someone worthy of Liz.”

When I read that part I couldn't help thinking whoever writes this manga heavily self-inserts as Liz and genuinely believes she's entitled to everything good in the world despite being a piece of shit. What a trainwreck indeed.

last edited at Feb 28, 2022 10:21AM

No one is going to comment on Hisa having two moms? This is the first official lesbian couple in Saki. Although Ritz had said in her blog that half the cast in Saki have lesbian parents, this is the first time we actually get to see it in the manga proper.

last edited at Feb 24, 2022 11:59PM

In my opinion, for a poly relationship to truly work, all the parties involved have to love each other. That wasn't the case in this manga so I never saw a poly ending as an option. If the manga went there, it would have felt forced to me.

if shes gonna go back to the future(where I think Aya succeeded as an actress, she never got married, and started dating the nana of that time) I wanna see the same 3some lol but anyway we have to wait until then

If she went back to the present, she will be the only Nanasawa around. The threesome is only possible in the past.

I still remember how Sumio Uetake, the guy who wrote the original Himegami webnovel (this manga is an adaptation of that novel) stopped writing the novel after the "Himeko killed Chikane" cliffhanger. He stopped writing for over a year, so most people thought that was the ending. Talk about a downer. Then, when almost everyone had forgotten about it, he resumed and completed the story. Such a tease.

I'm glad Kaishaku decided to adapt it. It's not a 100% faithful adaptation but it's pretty good all the same.

last edited at Dec 26, 2021 7:50PM

Chapter 11 basically confirms the lie is just Nana not being honest about her feelings.

last edited at Dec 24, 2021 11:38AM

I just read the last chapter. I'm not gonna spoil it, but it was a pretty satisfying ending imo. I can't wait to see it translated.

Wouldn't it be Elsa who unlocked the CG since she's the player character?

Yeah, something's very wrong with all this. This was supposed to be an Otome game with Elsa as protagonist / player character. The CGs should be of the guys she encounters, not of Elsa herself. And the problem is Yvonne seems to remember some of those Elsa CGs from when she was playing the game. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Then again, maybe Yvonne's memories got messed up when she got transported into the game. Maybe what she was playing wasn't an Otome game at all. Maybe it was a yuri game all along, and Elsa wasn't the player character but the main love interest. That's about the only way they could explain why there were Elsa CGs in the game.

last edited at Dec 8, 2021 11:30AM

Which is why I said "execution ALONE doesn't make a story enjoyable." Ideally, you want the whole package. Though, characters I can like is the most important to me.

Anyway, it looks like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. You like what you like and I like what I like. We don't have to agree.

last edited at Nov 30, 2021 10:26PM

Judging a story for its technical execution is fine and all. But execution alone doesn't make a story enjoyable. Griping storylines and compelling characters make a story enjoyable. And I don't find anything compelling about shitty people doing shitty things and getting away with it. I'm sure there are some folks out there who like that sort of shit and that's okay. I'm just not one of them.

Also Kimi Koi Limit from the same author.

https://dynasty-scans.com/series/kimi_koi_limit

Far better in every single way and shorter so the angst can't make a dent in your heart.

I hated and hate that vicious story more than any other so far mentioned in comments to Liberty.

I hated it too, to be honest. And I also hated Octave. For me all these stories (including Liberty) feature main characters who do horrible things and never face any consequences. I hate that kind of stories.

That been said, Liberty has a chance to redeem itself a bit if Maki doesn't take Liz back right away. Let Liz face some consequences for a change. That wouldn't totally fix the story at this point, but at least it wouldn't be total trash like Kimi Koi or Octave.

Except Liz is trying to go back with Maki only because her first choice ended up being a asshole. This isn't character growth. This is just Liz being a selfish piece of crap. Had she really learned from her mistakes, she would have left Maki move on from all this crap. If she really cared about Maki, she would get the hell away from her.

If Maki tells Liz to leave her alone or that she wants to move on, then Liz doing so would show growth. Given that she didn't, I think Liz coming to her with an apology and accepting Maki's response is better than just vanishing without any communication.

As to Liz being selfish or not, I think that Liz deserves to be happy. That shouldn't infringe on Maki's own right to happiness, but I don't think Liz shooting her shot for a second chance is morally reprehensible.

Of course it's morally reprehensible since she was the one who cheated on Maki to begin with, but now that her first choice is not an option, she wants to go back with Maki.... yeah, no, she should feel ashamed for even thinking about it after all she did.

It would be different if she left Sumire out of some self-realization that she did wrong and so on. But that's not what happened. She only tried going back with Maki when Sumire wasn't an option anymore.

last edited at Nov 27, 2021 11:49PM

Truly I don't understand people's hate for this series. Liz needs an arc!

The author started her with unprocessed baggage that's festered into a driving bitterness that leads to her hitting rock bottom by her own actions. To me it's more meaningful that she actually did a cruel, unjustified thing because of the scars of her previous relationship.

It seems that some people have designated her a "bad person" who doesn't deserve redemption or happiness out of some sense of punitive justice. I think she's a product of her environment and her own anxiety about being vulnerable. This doesn't justify her behavior, but it means that she's capable of being better.

I want to see her get better by realizing that not everyone she opens up to is going to hurt or abandon her. She can still fuck up and deserve happiness! She has to learn to do better by being hurt and seeing the consequences of her actions hurting others.

Except Liz is trying to go back with Maki only because her first choice ended up being a asshole. This isn't character growth. This is just Liz being a selfish piece of crap. Had she really learned from her mistakes, she would have left Maki move on from all this crap. If she really cared about Maki, she would get the hell away from her.