Really interesting chapter, as usual. We're back on the Lapis train and Natalie is continuing her journey to recognizing that her feelings for Lapis are different from her feelings for everyone else. She finally says that exactly (that the good feeling she gets from Lapis is different than what she gets from The Prince and Diana). The two of them are in different kinds of denial about their attraction to each other. Lapis clearly cares for Natalie, as much as she tries to hide it and seems to deny it (terribly). She's a tsundere in that sense. Natalie's self-worth issues also rear their heads again. She really can't imagine that Lapis would care for her compared to her grand plans but hopefully, she eventually gets over that (and notices the obvious signs, that yes, she can and likely already does).

I also wonder about Lapis' true intentions and background in this version. The author is being too clear, with everyone assuming certain intentions, but there are many hints suggesting more to that story and it feels like we're being set up for something. I don't expect a full subversion--Lapis is likely still planning something bad or at least controversial--but why and how much will Natori be able to change her? She's changed her a lot already (got her blushing and thinking of her all day) but what will that lead to? And what sides will everyone take once things start? Really enjoy this manga a lot. Neko is great. I'm still eager to see these plans in motion, though. How long does this series intend to be?

last edited at Jun 1, 2023 8:30PM

Kabedon't fuck with me, senpai!

Perfection…bravo

Yeah that lines hilarious.

I wonder what happened in Hiroko's past that makes her this way. She seems frightened of the possibility that this girl is serious about her. I think she;s a womanizer because she doesn't do relationships.

Yeah, she seemed a bit apprehensive, for sure. She's not a womanizer anymore though, they mentioned that earlier in the series during an off hand coversation. That was something she was more known for in the past and at the bar.

last edited at Jun 1, 2023 1:34PM

And it's here! Love Hiroko's uncomfortable/scared face on page 3, once she realizes what this all might end up implying. She's in active denial more than she is dense. Literally running from the convo. Can't be more straightforward than that.

She also really underestimates Ayaka's ability to hunt her down (and probably doesn't know how much Ayaka watches her in the office). That bar seems like happy chaos everytime it's shown.

last edited at Jun 1, 2023 12:48PM

I don't really think Eri is that childish, honestly. She is very clingy with Fuyuki but that's not the same thing. She acts very differently when she's alone with Kyou in chapter 1, which suggests to me that how Eri is with Fuyuki may partly be an act she puts on for (what she thinks is) Fuyuki's sake. And only having a few friends is not necessarily unhealthy either. I admit I haven't read chapter 4 though so that may change my opinions.

If anything chapter 4 is more in your favor since the unease she shows about her relationship with Kyou (and the idea of it's continuing) doesn't make as much sense if it's just about a friendship with Fuyuki, who by that point has mostly been fine with their relationship at least pubclicly. Unless I'm just confused about what issue we're debating about when it comes to Eri. But who knows. We'll hopefully find out next chapter.

last edited at May 30, 2023 4:43PM

The major upshot of the chapter, to me, is actually about Fuyuki; the lesson she took from Eri's past is that if she confesses her feelings, she'd destroy their friendship. But we don't know if that's how Eri sees things. That's why I think the chapter is consistent with a number of different interpretations of Eri's character.

That's my impression as well. More of a Fuyuki chapter than anything. Much is still possible either way.

last edited at May 30, 2023 4:18PM

I gotta say, Eri is my favorite character in this manga. It's fascinating to me how she hasn't really done anything wrong, but the story is framed to encourage the audience to hate her because Fuyuki is the protagonist and everything Eri's done -- perhaps most especially the nice things she's done -- have hurt Fuyuki deeply.

What I find most interesting about Eri, though, is how emotionally intuitive she is in (seemingly) almost all areas. She knew Fuyuki liked the movie the other club member was trashing; she instantly noticed that Kurosawa was more than just Fuyuki's senpai; and I'm pretty sure she also knows Kyou's in love with Fuyuki and not her. Which all raises the question...does she really not know that Fuyuki's been in love with her since forever? Does she really not see how much she's been hurting Fuyuki?

Here's my guess. The story is structured to make you think Eri is some evil manipulator -- even Kurosawa seems to believe this -- but I don't think so. I think the fundamental irony of Eri is that she understands others very well but she understands herself not at all. She's terrified to face the prospect that Fuyuki loves her because it would mean she'd have to admit to her own love too. So she lies to herself, pretends like she doesn't see it, forces herself to take Fuyuki's words at face value, because admitting to the truth would result in a flood of guilt, shame, and fear she's not able to hold up against.

God I love Murasakino lol

Very well put. I was thinking this exact same thing. She doesn't seem to understand her connection to Fuyuki yet, or has an inkling of understanding but is currently too scared or hesitant to truly investigate them. She just seems behind Fuyuki when it comes to understanding (or accepting) their desires. But she is earnest.

last edited at May 30, 2023 12:37PM

I think some people are putting too much emphasis on Asumi's goal of finding Mai through having sex with a bunch of other women... Like don't get me wrong, consensual non-monogamy would be cool, but this isn't exactly typical romantic development (Asumi is not chasing Mai because she's madly in love with her). From a storytelling perspective, finding Mai is primarily an excuse for Asumi's lesbian brothel adventures, not the main point of the story.

I also don't get the criticism that these chapters are straying too far from the premise. Why is it a bad thing that Asumi found someone she wants to do it with without paying for it? Was she supposed to limit herself to buying sex for the whole series? And both her and Nanao's experience with paid-for sex gave them a bit of extra courage to cross the line with each other, so the development is not random at all. I for one can't wait to see where it all goes, regardless of which ship (if any) sails in the end.

I agree 100% except for this part

Asumi is not chasing Mai because she's madly in love with her.

It's been a while but when they were showing the two of them the series ticked nearly every box for childhood crushes who can't forget each other.

LETS FUCKING GO NANAO!!! AT THIS POINT THERE'S NO EVEN SENSE IN FINDING MAI LOOOL GO FOR IT NANAO TOP NEXT CHAPTER!!!

I wish but this is feeling like the end of her story arc. No matter what, I just hope she doesn't end up hurt and finds someone else that isn't caught up in a goose chase.

last edited at May 30, 2023 6:52AM

"How Do We Relationship," is a favorite of mine.

I have been interested in reading this one for a long time.

Yeah HDWR is great, has lovely writing and well written character dynamics. I think it's the best, honestly. Just remember that it really means what it's english title implies. Some criticized the name but it sets up the reader properly for what to expect from the series' focus. It's targeting a whole different audience compared to a lot of the stuff here (so I can't imagine what the response to it, here is, considering the general tastes I've seen). It's honest about actual relationship issues (both good and bad). It's always fun and developed though; but, that's a heads up. Give it a try when you get the chance.

If I had to pick 3 more to recommended based on this:
"Even Though We're Adults" (which is ending), "Kill me Now," (more abstract) and "Hana ni Arashi" (also ending). + "Miss Angel and Miss Devil," just because that's lovely and literally no one seems to mention it. Maybe also "Adachi and Shimumara," but the LNs.

Perhaps we would already know it if that was the case? I think the magazine would have announced that the series, and not the "school festival" as they stated, was entering its climax on the color page of the previous chapter. But who knows, it's already quite a long manga by this genre's standards.

Yeah I agree. I feel this way mainly because from a narrative standpoint there's not much else to pull from. Having said that she could just introduce a new issue after this one is over. Like you said it's gone on long enough that when it reaches points of natural rest, I start wondering whether it might be setting up an end.

last edited at May 30, 2023 7:21AM

One way or another, Shiho should have a relevant role in the next Arc. And I would like more chapters from Aki's perspective.

"How Do We Relationship," is a favorite of mine. I'd love it if this series tried to navigate both relationships in a similar-ish fashion. Not in the same way Tamifull's series does (the audiences are different and that kind of mature writing might not work for a series like this) but Shiho and Aki for example could have interesting issues to slowly work around and birth lessons from. I'm still not sure what Yori and Hima would do though. I feel like, for them, the author would have to create a sudden new issue in order to shake them up, or just continue doing fluff. Their core desires and character make-ups don't really lend themselves to natural dramatic potential. But we'll see. They could just be the standard necessary romance compared to the other main couple where the dramatic work is executed. That's already been the strategy up to this point anyway so she could just continue that.

Me too. I'm a bit anxious to get a confirmation whether the manga is close to its ending or not.

Yeah I've long suspected that it might end after this. It's reached a hard conclusion to all storylines and character desires. So it would need to reset, like seasons in a webtoon. It's already followed some webtoon/Korean/Chinese type "couple A gets together now focus on couple B" stuff so maybe it'll continue that and do a reset.

last edited at May 29, 2023 7:44AM

It's gonna be a slow burn innit?

I think it's focus is just going to be about more than their getting together.

we stan a problematic queen

The only problematic thing here is the slavers are still alive.

Right? I'd have been fine with a "Kill me, Now" kind of punishment.

We started this exchange by me categorically rejecting your oh-so-solicitous advice about what I should and shouldn’t read, and we are ending it in exactly the same place.

I'm not in this one but I think you've mixed me and Kabu up. You were having that discussion with me. Kabu shouldn't get that ire. And "oh so solicitous?" I guess maybe? If that's how you want to take it. I thought I explained my intent but ok.

The plot for the next couple of volumes: Shiho rejects Aki because she doesn't want her "love" out of pity, then Aki tries to convince her that's not the case, while genuinely falling in love more and more with Shiho in the process. How does it sound? I'm half-kidding, but honestly I would find out of character for Shiho to accept whatever Aki is going to say to her in the next chapter, although everything seems to indicate that it will be the case.

It wouldn't surprise me if that happened. But like you said, I'd rather we move on from these events by now. I'm genuinely more interested in the resolution and what comes next. There's basically a clean slate afterwards. I also feel like Shiho is a glass cannon. She could just as easily breakdown and accept what Aki says. A lot of how she acts is empty bravado. She's a chihuahua and everyone knows it.

last edited at May 28, 2023 8:50PM

johnb posted:

Seriously, is there any real possibility for Hibiki and Chihaya getting together, romantically, or is it just going to a one sided thing. I'm looking for spoilers hear. I'm not really interested in reading a long heart wrenching yuri series just to see the guy walk away with girl in the end.

The manga is ongoing. How could anyone spoil you? And besides, I think the title spells pretty clearly the guy won't walk away with the girl.

The alternative translation of the title is phrased as a question: "Boys Who Get Between Yuri Are Better Off Dead?!" (The original title ends with an exclamation mark and question mark: 「百合にはさまる男は死ねばいい！？」/ "Yuri ni Hasamaru Otoko wa Shineba Ii!?")

I would answer that question with a yes, but I don't know if the author agrees with me...

I would emphatically agree withe your yes. If I want to see the guy end up with the girl, I could read, pretty much any other genre of manga. Well except yaoi, of course.

I posted the line editorial staff's blurb about the series earlier in these comments. They should give you a better idea of the series' intentions.

Another cute (mini) chapter.

Look, if you think a story that spends its first 15 chapters developing a romance between one pair of characters before the “actual” protagonist whose story was “meant” to be told appears and pushes those first characters to the sidelines is well-structured, we clearly don’t share enough critical premises to have a productive conversation.

I would change a few things about it's opening for sure. I think they could have served the same purposes while prepping some readers better for the intended flow of the series. Never said it was perfect. But once Shiho did enter at around chapter (14-18?) it's been fine for what it's trying to do.

Many others besides me have argued that this author’s “Shiho strategy,” while pleasing those who find the character “relatable” or “fascinating” or whatever, has come at a significant cost in overall focus and coherence, and we need no reminders that we are free to abandon reading the series should we so desire.

You don't have to abandon it. The discussions are interesting. Just genuinely curious about the reasons people who dislike the story are staying on. I've heard from some who say they stay because this is an arc that will pass and so I don't know how many still think that. The arc might pass but I'd be surprised if Shiho goes anywhere. Although who knows.

The art is very very good, I honestly think this is like 60% of the reason behind this series continued success at this point (the other 40% being the original story of the actual main characters). Certainly it is the case for me, I would probably drop it a long time ago if the art was average. I'm obviously in the camp "Shiho is shit and nothing about her is well written" but that discussion is boring that this point :P I just want literally anything else than battle of the bands.

I agree, the art is nice although I don't personally think it's anything that I'd stay for alone. I do agree that this ending to the battle should come soon (preferably next chapter). This recent chapter was too much setup for a monthly. As for the original couple, that holding power still stands strong after all this time? Himari is great but I feel Yori has barely had anything to do for a very long time. By now I don't think it's reasonable to assume the audience doesn't largely like Shiho and Aki's story so I wouldn't agree to the exact percentages you mentioned. I get that you don't like them as much though.

last edited at May 28, 2023 2:01PM

And to be clear, it’s not a professional mistake for an author to choose a narrative strategy that proves popular with readers, just an artistic one.

Wouldn't it have been a much safer strategy to continue with the day-to-day lives of Himari and Yori, as their relationship develops (similar to what the author I Can't Defy the Lonely Girl did)? Let's not pretend that the author took the easy path with the series, because I would say that it's rather the opposite.

Hmm maybe? It's generally more challenging to write a dramatic arc properly than fluffy romance. That would probably be safer around here but I don't know that the general audience would respond that well? Eventually that might have gotten old. A lot of Korean works are encroaching on the space partly I believe because they're willing to deal with dramatic and unconventional dynamics better. As for this series, the main couple did not have a lot developed in order to extend the series with just them, in my opinion. They got together too quick, were too perfect and had little narrative goals beyond their romance. Having said that, I don't have enough info and have never written for that kind of audience, so take what I say with a large grain of salt. For fans of the main couple, it might actually be a blessing that Shiho and Aki were used for the necessary dramatic arcs rather than sullying the main-main relationship.

Just because it's interesting: I'd imagine that volume 8 would have Shiho and Aki. If that's the case it would be 5-3 cover appearances.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:42PM

Thanks for your suggestion, but the notion that I (along with the many others who think this series has gone off the rails) am “reading to find faults” is as puerile as it is glib. Like many other readers I know, I enjoy analyzing stories as works of narrative art, and have no interest in being a social scientist analyzing various audience responses. And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

You were explaining why you continue to read the series and what you were getting from it. This is what I responded to:

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong.

Maybe I misunderstood something? Also if you're discussing writing (which is about communication) you're tied to the other party (or audience) in some form or fashion whether you agree to it or not. But maybe that is where we are at an impass?

“People like it, therefore it’s good” is a kind of critical judgement, I suppose.

That's funny but that's not really what I said.

And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

An author can't satisfy everyone. You're not attempting to reach 100% satisfaction as a writer (you'd pull your hair out and create nothing). You're trying to target a specific idea or group and get a majority of them to feel seen, moved by and connected to your work. It's not defining you out of existence, it's accepting the reality that there is a majority interpretation in a game where no one should be claiming absolute authority over critical judgement. What works in writing is so heavily based on the context it's written in.

The author can only do so much and it would be odd for them to bend their story that is already working for the majority, to satisfy the minority. I've been in the minority position my entire life. My opinions still matter but I respect and understand where I'm positioned. If I think a story has missteps but 90% of the readerbase disagrees, I accept that and seek to understand why that might be and what that author is doing within that context from a literary perspective. All this to say that from my point of view, I am not ignoring other opinions or pretending they do not exist. I treat myself the same way.

In this threads I seem to be in the minority. It's also not just "people like it, therefore good."

“A reader with some kind of literary background” will do.

Fair I don't like giving out info like that either. Shouldn't have asked that. Sorry about that.

Anyway this thread has gone on for a bit and is getting off topic, so I'll drop it after you respond and have the final word.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:30PM

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong. This one seems to me to be an obvious example of “antagonist becomes breakout character,” leading to disproportionate character development and loss of focus, as in the series What Does the Fox Say?, where the authors became so enamored of developing the backstory of poor-little-rich-girl Seju that the entire structure of the series was thrown out of wack, just as this one has been.

"What Does the Fox Say," was a great series in my opinion and I don't remember any glaring issues with its structure. I disagree with how you're characterizing both series (though there's a lot more to be said about this one). I guess we have differing opinions on what makes a story artistically successful, anyway. So maybe we'll never agree on these issues.

I'd also say that if you are a student of storytelling, rather than reading to find faults, you could learn a lot more from understanding why these stories are actually successful at satisfying its audience and why there are so many who don't find issue with a character like Shiho (that goes beyond her being an "antagonistic breakout character") or it's structure. I think we had a similar debate earlier in this series? Maybe that discussion was with someone else? People tend to hand wave these things away and in my experience that creates more issues. In my opinion, there is a good amount of skill expressed by how this story is told for it's specific audience. But I do agree that you can learn a lot from breaking down mistakes. I just think that for a series that's working so well, the lessons found in what's considered it's mistakes might not lead to future success in this specific context. But we differ on what success looks like so there's that.

There's definitely a lot of literary decisions this story makes that wouldn't work in another context though, if that's what you mean by artistic missteps.

Also by student of storytelling what do you mean? Do you have some kind of literary background? Or are you talking as a reader?

I also find it funny that this story sparks so many of these types of discussions. They're interesting. Is there another series here that has had a similar kind of effect? Maybe My Girlfriend isn't here?

last edited at May 28, 2023 12:58PM

I'm against straight/sapphic love triangles that go the straight way, but I'm fine with it if they end up going the sapphic route. The problem is that you normally can't tell, and if it ends up going the straight route late into the story, it's absolutely heartrending (too much like real life).

But with that title, the author is saying "don't worry, I'm not gonna do that to you". I mean, what a curveball it would be to do it anyway, but I assume the author's intentions aren't malicious, lol.

Yeah from I could gather the Line editorial staff made a note saying there's some events at the beginning but the story is a proper yuri story. There's more characters though, so who knows what happens with these two specifically. We'll see. But with the title (which also seems like it should be a question, not a statement), it seems the guy will be prominent in whatever ways but you should be fine reading on. If that helps. Although being Yuri doesn't mean there won't be drama, of course. It seems the boy is a chill guy, possibly? Just existing but I guess that's the joke of the title's question. The Line note seems to want people to relax.

Someone else can translate as well:
【LINEマンガ編集部おすすめコメント】
トランペット1stを吹くことに誇りを持っていた片桐。そこに全国レベルの強豪校で1stを吹いていた転校生、相川が現れて……。
青春。青い空。吹奏楽。百合。そして間に挟まる健気な男の子。
女子吹奏楽部員たち（と男の子1名）の、名前のつけられない感情を描く、バカっぽいタイトルからは計り知る事が難しい青春群像劇です。

出だしのパンチがありますが、ちゃんと百合です。ご安心して読み進めて下さい。

What a fantastic title. Drew me in.

I agree! Some of these reactions are interesting considering the title is so self aware and anticipates these kind of responses. From my understanding, it should be a question mark though, like asking a question.

last edited at May 28, 2023 9:13AM

I’d love to be given the opportunity to forget that Shiho ever existed.

Don't mean to be rude but like with Shiho's friends do the pros of the series outweigh its cons for you? If not, the opportunity is there. I've certainly taken that opportunity on more than one occasion. She's kind of cemented as a core main character and as I mentioned before, her story with Aki is important to the author (from what she's said). I honestly feel more and more that this is the story she meant to get to from the start. It's certainly taken up the highest percentage of the running time this far. So this is the story, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on where you stand I guess.

Well no she hasn't done anything particularly bad or morally reprehensible but she's just a pain in the ass and a hard to deal person, you have to be a special kind of saint to tolerate her shit (wich shiho I lucky cuz every person aside from her Is that kind of person).

I don't think you need to be a saint. She's chill in most interactions and the series obviously picks specific moments to cover. During normal days she's been a good friend to them. She has thorny spots that her friends know are touchy subjects but that's normal in a friendship (or maybe it used to be normal?). Sometimes you know that a friend isn't their best under certain conditions. That's not being difficult necessarily, or unique to Shiho, that's just people. It's an exaggeration to say you'd need to be a saint, you just can't be too sensitive. But anyway that's all subjective, so we'll just talk around each other. Bottom line is it's not unreal for her friends to view her differently than you might. They just like her more than not and likely understand/sympathize with where her rougher edges are coming from.

The levels of copium on this forum have been raising exponentially with every new chapter, people have been moving the goalpost of what's acceptable or good writing to accommodate shiho and the story. At this point I'm convinced that both the story and shiho can get away with almost anything because people will justify almost anything or just headcanon a solution.

I'd say it's goes the opposite. The responses to Shiho seem to get worse and more exaggerated the more people realize that others look at her character differently. The idea seems to some, unfathomable and seems to bring out some odder responses sometimes. But we'll probably agree to disagree on that. This'll be a discussion for the rest of the series probably. It'll be interesting to see what happens if the anime can get up to these points in the story.

last edited at May 28, 2023 7:37AM

This arc has been amazing. Really love the creative direction taken here. So much to mine from it and keep the story fresh. Looking forward to the future. I would have cut both his hands off though.

What puzzles me is why the people around her keep putting up with her shit, like sure she's a "realistic teen", but other "realisticas teens" would already be done with her, even if her character makes sense it's weird how everyone just shrugs their shoulders and go "good ol shiho am I rite" whenever she acts annoying.

Most of her friends know her background and seem to have accepted that her behaviour largely comes from those related issues. She's also not done as much as is often implied by some and most of her issues are related to competition and Aki. They simply believe her pros outweigh her cons and don't abandon her because she has faults.

every shiho fan will just write easays justifing and rationalizing her actions and about how aki and SS were actually the bad guys all along and shiho not only deserves the apology but also doesn't need to apologize

Who has done this exactly? Is there something you can point to as an example?

last edited at May 27, 2023 11:31AM

If nothing else there's always the universal school time plot/drama creator: the future. Himari is a first year while everyone in SS Girls are third years. Shiho and her band are all second years.

Graduation, getting separated, college, what comes after school. Plenty to worry about for everyone involved xD

That's true but I don't feel like she'll be interested in writing about those kinds of plots. At least I don't expect her to take that straightforward angle, if she even does go that route. She also seems really focused on depicting musical connection into the story, so I'm imagining a different kind of future for the series. But who knows. I'll be looking for some hints in the next chapter.

Lol that panel of yori and shiho facing each other was hilarious, as if yori actually gave a flying fuck about shiho or whatever she's up to. It's also hilarious how no one but hima could muster the strength to chase after shiho cuz she's such a pain to deal with, so even her bandmates avoid her like the plague when she's mad

I mean, winning the competition is also important to Yori. SS lost during the audition and Shiho told her that "she has a long way to go" (I think it was the only time they spoke, lol). Not to mention, she even wrote a new song for the occasion.

Also their depiction of what happened is imaginary and projection. Her friends didn't say anything about avoiding her. They actually didn't really speak this chapter at all. A "main character's only" kind of chapter.

last edited at May 27, 2023 10:06AM