And to be clear, it’s not a professional mistake for an author to choose a narrative strategy that proves popular with readers, just an artistic one.

Wouldn't it have been a much safer strategy to continue with the day-to-day lives of Himari and Yori, as their relationship develops (similar to what the author I Can't Defy the Lonely Girl did)? Let's not pretend that the author took the easy path with the series, because I would say that it's rather the opposite.

Hmm maybe? It's generally more challenging to write a dramatic arc properly than fluffy romance. That would probably be safer around here but I don't know that the general audience would respond that well? Eventually that might have gotten old. A lot of Korean works are encroaching on the space partly I believe because they're willing to deal with dramatic and unconventional dynamics better. As for this series, the main couple did not have a lot developed in order to extend the series with just them, in my opinion. They got together too quick, were too perfect and had little narrative goals beyond their romance. Having said that, I don't have enough info and have never written for that kind of audience, so take what I say with a large grain of salt. For fans of the main couple, it might actually be a blessing that Shiho and Aki were used for the necessary dramatic arcs rather than sullying the main-main relationship.

Just because it's interesting: I'd imagine that volume 8 would have Shiho and Aki. If that's the case it would be 5-3 cover appearances.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:42PM

Thanks for your suggestion, but the notion that I (along with the many others who think this series has gone off the rails) am “reading to find faults” is as puerile as it is glib. Like many other readers I know, I enjoy analyzing stories as works of narrative art, and have no interest in being a social scientist analyzing various audience responses. And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

You were explaining why you continue to read the series and what you were getting from it. This is what I responded to:

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong.

Maybe I misunderstood something? Also if you're discussing writing (which is about communication) you're tied to the other party (or audience) in some form or fashion whether you agree to it or not. But maybe that is where we are at an impass?

“People like it, therefore it’s good” is a kind of critical judgement, I suppose.

That's funny but that's not really what I said.

And of course, to claim that this series “satisfies its audience” simply defines its unsatisfied readers out of existence.

An author can't satisfy everyone. You're not attempting to reach 100% satisfaction as a writer (you'd pull your hair out and create nothing). You're trying to target a specific idea or group and get a majority of them to feel seen, moved by and connected to your work. It's not defining you out of existence, it's accepting the reality that there is a majority interpretation in a game where no one should be claiming absolute authority over critical judgement. What works in writing is so heavily based on the context it's written in.

The author can only do so much and it would be odd for them to bend their story that is already working for the majority, to satisfy the minority. I've been in the minority position my entire life. My opinions still matter but I respect and understand where I'm positioned. If I think a story has missteps but 90% of the readerbase disagrees, I accept that and seek to understand why that might be and what that author is doing within that context from a literary perspective. All this to say that from my point of view, I am not ignoring other opinions or pretending they do not exist. I treat myself the same way.

In this threads I seem to be in the minority. It's also not just "people like it, therefore good."

“A reader with some kind of literary background” will do.

Fair I don't like giving out info like that either. Shouldn't have asked that. Sorry about that.

Anyway this thread has gone on for a bit and is getting off topic, so I'll drop it after you respond and have the final word.

last edited at May 28, 2023 1:30PM

Second, as a student of serial storytelling as a form, I’m interested in the process of how promising stories can go wrong. This one seems to me to be an obvious example of “antagonist becomes breakout character,” leading to disproportionate character development and loss of focus, as in the series What Does the Fox Say?, where the authors became so enamored of developing the backstory of poor-little-rich-girl Seju that the entire structure of the series was thrown out of wack, just as this one has been.

"What Does the Fox Say," was a great series in my opinion and I don't remember any glaring issues with its structure. I disagree with how you're characterizing both series (though there's a lot more to be said about this one). I guess we have differing opinions on what makes a story artistically successful, anyway. So maybe we'll never agree on these issues.

I'd also say that if you are a student of storytelling, rather than reading to find faults, you could learn a lot more from understanding why these stories are actually successful at satisfying its audience and why there are so many who don't find issue with a character like Shiho (that goes beyond her being an "antagonistic breakout character") or it's structure. I think we had a similar debate earlier in this series? Maybe that discussion was with someone else? People tend to hand wave these things away and in my experience that creates more issues. In my opinion, there is a good amount of skill expressed by how this story is told for it's specific audience. But I do agree that you can learn a lot from breaking down mistakes. I just think that for a series that's working so well, the lessons found in what's considered it's mistakes might not lead to future success in this specific context. But we differ on what success looks like so there's that.

There's definitely a lot of literary decisions this story makes that wouldn't work in another context though, if that's what you mean by artistic missteps.

Also by student of storytelling what do you mean? Do you have some kind of literary background? Or are you talking as a reader?

I also find it funny that this story sparks so many of these types of discussions. They're interesting. Is there another series here that has had a similar kind of effect? Maybe My Girlfriend isn't here?

last edited at May 28, 2023 12:58PM

I'm against straight/sapphic love triangles that go the straight way, but I'm fine with it if they end up going the sapphic route. The problem is that you normally can't tell, and if it ends up going the straight route late into the story, it's absolutely heartrending (too much like real life).

But with that title, the author is saying "don't worry, I'm not gonna do that to you". I mean, what a curveball it would be to do it anyway, but I assume the author's intentions aren't malicious, lol.

Yeah from I could gather the Line editorial staff made a note saying there's some events at the beginning but the story is a proper yuri story. There's more characters though, so who knows what happens with these two specifically. We'll see. But with the title (which also seems like it should be a question, not a statement), it seems the guy will be prominent in whatever ways but you should be fine reading on. If that helps. Although being Yuri doesn't mean there won't be drama, of course. It seems the boy is a chill guy, possibly? Just existing but I guess that's the joke of the title's question. The Line note seems to want people to relax.

Someone else can translate as well:
【LINEマンガ編集部おすすめコメント】
トランペット1stを吹くことに誇りを持っていた片桐。そこに全国レベルの強豪校で1stを吹いていた転校生、相川が現れて……。
青春。青い空。吹奏楽。百合。そして間に挟まる健気な男の子。
女子吹奏楽部員たち（と男の子1名）の、名前のつけられない感情を描く、バカっぽいタイトルからは計り知る事が難しい青春群像劇です。

出だしのパンチがありますが、ちゃんと百合です。ご安心して読み進めて下さい。

What a fantastic title. Drew me in.

I agree! Some of these reactions are interesting considering the title is so self aware and anticipates these kind of responses. From my understanding, it should be a question mark though, like asking a question.

last edited at May 28, 2023 9:13AM

I’d love to be given the opportunity to forget that Shiho ever existed.

Don't mean to be rude but like with Shiho's friends do the pros of the series outweigh its cons for you? If not, the opportunity is there. I've certainly taken that opportunity on more than one occasion. She's kind of cemented as a core main character and as I mentioned before, her story with Aki is important to the author (from what she's said). I honestly feel more and more that this is the story she meant to get to from the start. It's certainly taken up the highest percentage of the running time this far. So this is the story, fortunately or unfortunately, depending on where you stand I guess.

Well no she hasn't done anything particularly bad or morally reprehensible but she's just a pain in the ass and a hard to deal person, you have to be a special kind of saint to tolerate her shit (wich shiho I lucky cuz every person aside from her Is that kind of person).

I don't think you need to be a saint. She's chill in most interactions and the series obviously picks specific moments to cover. During normal days she's been a good friend to them. She has thorny spots that her friends know are touchy subjects but that's normal in a friendship (or maybe it used to be normal?). Sometimes you know that a friend isn't their best under certain conditions. That's not being difficult necessarily, or unique to Shiho, that's just people. It's an exaggeration to say you'd need to be a saint, you just can't be too sensitive. But anyway that's all subjective, so we'll just talk around each other. Bottom line is it's not unreal for her friends to view her differently than you might. They just like her more than not and likely understand/sympathize with where her rougher edges are coming from.

The levels of copium on this forum have been raising exponentially with every new chapter, people have been moving the goalpost of what's acceptable or good writing to accommodate shiho and the story. At this point I'm convinced that both the story and shiho can get away with almost anything because people will justify almost anything or just headcanon a solution.

I'd say it's goes the opposite. The responses to Shiho seem to get worse and more exaggerated the more people realize that others look at her character differently. The idea seems to some, unfathomable and seems to bring out some odder responses sometimes. But we'll probably agree to disagree on that. This'll be a discussion for the rest of the series probably. It'll be interesting to see what happens if the anime can get up to these points in the story.

last edited at May 28, 2023 7:37AM

This arc has been amazing. Really love the creative direction taken here. So much to mine from it and keep the story fresh. Looking forward to the future. I would have cut both his hands off though.

What puzzles me is why the people around her keep putting up with her shit, like sure she's a "realistic teen", but other "realisticas teens" would already be done with her, even if her character makes sense it's weird how everyone just shrugs their shoulders and go "good ol shiho am I rite" whenever she acts annoying.

Most of her friends know her background and seem to have accepted that her behaviour largely comes from those related issues. She's also not done as much as is often implied by some and most of her issues are related to competition and Aki. They simply believe her pros outweigh her cons and don't abandon her because she has faults.

every shiho fan will just write easays justifing and rationalizing her actions and about how aki and SS were actually the bad guys all along and shiho not only deserves the apology but also doesn't need to apologize

Who has done this exactly? Is there something you can point to as an example?

last edited at May 27, 2023 11:31AM

If nothing else there's always the universal school time plot/drama creator: the future. Himari is a first year while everyone in SS Girls are third years. Shiho and her band are all second years.

Graduation, getting separated, college, what comes after school. Plenty to worry about for everyone involved xD

That's true but I don't feel like she'll be interested in writing about those kinds of plots. At least I don't expect her to take that straightforward angle, if she even does go that route. She also seems really focused on depicting musical connection into the story, so I'm imagining a different kind of future for the series. But who knows. I'll be looking for some hints in the next chapter.

Lol that panel of yori and shiho facing each other was hilarious, as if yori actually gave a flying fuck about shiho or whatever she's up to. It's also hilarious how no one but hima could muster the strength to chase after shiho cuz she's such a pain to deal with, so even her bandmates avoid her like the plague when she's mad

I mean, winning the competition is also important to Yori. SS lost during the audition and Shiho told her that "she has a long way to go" (I think it was the only time they spoke, lol). Not to mention, she even wrote a new song for the occasion.

Also their depiction of what happened is imaginary and projection. Her friends didn't say anything about avoiding her. They actually didn't really speak this chapter at all. A "main character's only" kind of chapter.

last edited at May 27, 2023 10:06AM

The ideal would be for them to reconcile, become friends again and for the relationship to develop little by little, but I don't know if that will be the author's intention. Sales are great and there's an anime coming soon, so it's all up to them really.

Yeah I'm wondering how the series will continue after the "battle" ends as well. It could go like a lot of Korean series and follow both main "couples" while continuing with their trials and complications. That's the pattern it's followed up to now (main 1 gets it's focus, then main 2, then both together). There's not any clear outstanding issues though besides Shiho and Aki's situation, so more than anything I'm interested to see what the author wants to do. She says she's a fan of Aki, especially; and she likes the feedback she's gotten about Aki and Shiho's story, but I can't imagine she'll want to solely center them in the story still. So we'll see. It could also end after this but like you said it's doing so well (sales, anime and recent live) and from her comments it sounds like she has more to tell, at least for a bit. I'm honestly more interested in where this goes, than anything else with the story at the moment.

last edited at May 27, 2023 9:58AM

It seems that SS is going to win the competition after all. Don't worry Shiho, you can't do anything against such a massive plot armor.

I'm still not sure what kind of message will Aki try to convey to Shiho. It's not like she can fall in love with her in just one day... Right?

Depends on what she says. I can't imagine they'd fall in love (well one of them is already in love) but I could see Aki's being willing to rekindle their relationship. That wouldn't be a lovey dovey couple but a sort of obviously flirting middle ground while they work things out. So friends but friends leaning in an obvious direction. She could also do the opposite, and discuss their past but embrace moving on. Not a clear tell either way so it'll be interesting to see what she says.

Aleast use the door for a nice trip anyway.

Come on Aki, get the girl!

It looks like she's about to pull a movie stunt. We'll see how that goes. I predict a lot of tears and close ups of Shiho's reactions in the crowd.

last edited at May 26, 2023 8:06PM

Who is this ribbon ceo y’all are talking about, did I miss something

From the last extra chapter. The woman at the end in the bar.

Risa (like everyone else in this manga) is really nice, isn't she? She'll find someone for sure. I also forgot these were extra chapters.

last edited at May 26, 2023 11:41AM

Apparently, this is based on a popular play/drama or something similar? Does anyone know anything about that?

last edited at May 25, 2023 6:15PM

Okay. I've finished the vol 2 of this story. It doesn't get as bad as other ppl mentioned. Hiroko gets more relatable as the story progresses.

There is a reason why she acts like this. She used to have a crush on a senpai just like Ayaka does now, and that ended horribly which made her the way she is now. I really felt bad fot her and I totally understand her now. I haven't finished vol 3 but I'll reply with my thoughts after I'm done.

Yeah she's her most hilarious during the setup for sure! Glad you stuck with it and let the story explain itself. I think Volume 3 (the last one) is the best, so it would be great to hear your opinion on it (especially if you end up feeling differently). Also you're reading it in Japanese? If you haven't, you could also try "Black and White" from the same author. That just ended and is about as long as this one. Really different flavour though.

last edited at May 25, 2023 4:10PM

Are there any villainess yuri stories where the villainess is actually fairly effed up? I mean someone like Fukiko Ichinomiya from Oniisama e. She was a seriously nasty person.

Maybe I’m weird for wanting it, but there’s nothing like the thrill of digging into the twisted psychology of a screwed up villainess. Most of these villainess stories are cute, but I abandon them ‘cuz they’re just tsunderes in fantasy settings. Not much real villainy.

Fed Up Office Lady features a villainess as a love interest whose plans are legitimately evil.

Yeah, that was my example but it still falls into the same category as the commenter mentioned. We still don't know her full plans (as compared to the game version) and I doubt it goes fully bad without explanations/backstory etc. The author seems to be interested in the romance more than anything as well. It's still a story with a main couple comprised of a powerful tsundere and a woman who wants to save her. But that one was the closest I could think of, as well.

last edited at May 25, 2023 12:44PM

Are there any villainess yuri stories where the villainess is actually fairly effed up? I mean someone like Fukiko Ichinomiya from Oniisama e. She was a seriously nasty person.

Maybe I’m weird for wanting it, but there’s nothing like the thrill of digging into the twisted psychology of a screwed up villainess. Most of these villainess stories are cute, but I abandon them ‘cuz they’re just tsunderes in fantasy settings. Not much real villainy.

Yeah, it's just that most of the people writing these aren't interested in a psychological breakdown, they're in it for the romance and the tsundere ("I can save her"). A lot of the audience has been primed for that too by now; honestly, including me. In practice,"Villainess" is just another word for "Powerful Tsundere to be saved or do the saving."

last edited at May 25, 2023 10:19AM

I think this is the fourth or fifth series I've read with this start... looks good tho

Came here to say this. That intro has been overdone and is stupid at this point, but there could still be potential here.

since every manga out there has an generic start do you think every manga has an stupid start too? because there is not much unique manga starts out there so everything is stupid by your definition, is just generic but not stupid

Yeah the setups are often paying homage and generic for that reason. It's not until the second chapter that I get an idea of the story's potential direction. Even more so for these types. Characters seem interesting now though and I enjoyed her little shows of magic.

last edited at May 25, 2023 6:04AM

This implies that Hiroko has slept with women she's found attractive in the workplace before...SO THEN WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF THIS MANGA

This one offhand comment single handedly destroys the entire backbone of the story. If Hiroko is such a womanizer and jumps at the chance to sleep with a cute girl, WHY HAS SHE BEEN AVOIDING AYAKA SO DAMN MUCH!?

That's a good question to ask but doesn't break the manga. Just have to read to find out. Also remember that she used to be a womanizer but stopped recently. They discussed this in chapter 2 around the bar, when two of the women mention that her reputation now is different then before.

last edited at May 24, 2023 4:55PM

Hiroko is sweet, albeit under a good amount of pressure given her position. Can't imagine currying favor like that everyday in that kind of atmosphere. She must feel constantly worried.

I guess her refusal to believe that Ayaka is gay makes a bit more sense if every woman in her department is also blushing after her. Well, that or everyone who works there is gay, and no one's realized it yet.

That and she's really worried about what the office would think (and I guess what it would do to her career) if they knew she was gay. She's even wearing clothes meant for fending off the leeches.

It's interesting because they mention her age gap quite a bit in these chapters and there might be something to how her fear of being outed is more intense than someone like Ayaka's. Ayaka is younger and therefore maybe has a different outlook on things because of that. They have two altered perspectives.

last edited at May 24, 2023 3:04PM

Snake Princess is currently trifling. Another great chapter, this series is amazing with its subtle storytelling, attention to details and characterizations. Also lovely variety of facial expressions.

last edited at May 24, 2023 7:53AM

Given the way episodes 17 and 18 have gone, the bloody hand Miorine is holding would make more sense to be Prospera's. Taking the devil's hand in an alliance, even if it means the blood is on your hands as well.

I would LOVE some introspection from Suletta about how even though she's technically gotten everything she wanted, none of it feels complete without Miorine. But we'll just have to see what Sunrise has in store.

She did that introspection in the last episode. She questioned the idea of "gaining two" (for the first time) because even with everything else, she couldn't get over missing Mio. So that already happened.

last edited at May 23, 2023 9:27PM

That is quite the hair.

She's basically Mufasa. All she needs is to let out a little meow.

last edited at May 23, 2023 9:49AM

Cute. Hiroko doesn't know how much she affects Ayaka yet. She needs a recharge every couple days. But still that room needs some serious cleaning. Looked like a hoarders room for a second.

last edited at May 22, 2023 5:26PM