Witch kiss. The fact that her skirt is flipping over is hilarious to me.

last edited at Sep 7, 2019 4:07AM

This is not as comfortable as it looks. Shamiko just hit her face against those steel like abs after tripping. She is lucky if she doesn't need a hospital visit.
Ganbare Shamiko! Become a demon who doesn't sexually harrass her girlfriend during death battles!

OT3?

Was Bismarck always so much smaller?

^^And apparently 90% of female players picked female Byleth, so it's not even reversed hetero picks (yes that happens a lot actually, picking the opposite of one's own gender to have a straight romance with a character of one's own gender).

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 10:01AM

@BD: since you've now stated that you're done I'll leave it at what I've said so far. We have different ideas of what localisation can and should do, and that's fine.

Thanks for pointing out the passage of Kobayashi's. I'll only say that I have no issue with what Funimation did with it. It most likely was not a translator that added the line about dragons, but an editor that saw a chance for a small quip.

No. The line is about not being into " women or dragons". That goes 100% against the intention of the source material. Kobayashi is supposed to be neutral on the whole thing, not revealing her sexuality or anything of the sort. The dub actively turned it into a negative rejecting statement, which was not in the original. Your overly accepting attitude decreases the quality of the product. Be a little more critical of alterations, would you?

Of course the translator didn't add that nonsense in, it was the script writer. It is publically known who did the script for all episodes and she is well known for altering the context or content of an anime however it suits her, completely ignoring the original intention.
There are even worse changes in the later episodes at that.

The dub was generally well handled, but these unecessary alterations are not acceptable. Localisation is not a shield to play around with the source material as one pleases.

You have been cornered on the YagaKImi dub issue in every conceivable way and your only out is "But I liked it". Irrelevant. Sometimes you have to give up things you prefer for consistency and integrity. Adding "dear" is not a fix. Nobody in America which this is supposedly aimed at would say that either. It fails in every single regard in all cultures in that scene. It was plain and simply ruined, for absolutely no gain whatsoever.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 6:38AM

@Zormau
You keep saying that there can be no perfect equivalence as if that somehow supports your argument that they can wildly differ. That is not the case. They should not differ. Just because there is no perfect equivalence doesn't mean the script writer is allowed to distance themselves from the equivalence. It should always be a case of being as close as possible not "close enough I guess lol". The script writer is not the author, just someone who delivers the story to someone else. They have no right to alter it in any way beyond making it understandable.

When I said lazy I meant it. The "hard work" and "thinking" you talk about only came to be because they messed up in the first place. Localising things in a way that only makes it easy for your own cultural understanding is lazy. A good localisation keeps the facts, tone and cultural meaning intact.

There is absolutely nothing correct about pet names in this scenario and I find it ludicrous that you could even pretend it is. As I said, you are allowed to ignore it, but don't act like you have legitimate arguments to back it up.

I noticed that you put it all into the context of linguistics, to avoid addressing the core problem here. The cultural aspect is the issue. NOBODY in Japan will EVER use "darling", "dear" and any pet names of the kind on someone they are not intimate with. The flaw that breaks the camel's back in this sloppy localisation was that they wanted to use first names, because that would be more familiar but still acceptable in front of others without rousing suspicion. There is simply no way that Touko would ever be stupid enough to say something like that before Sayaka.

So in summary: It goes against their cultural norms, which you cannot sweep aside with translation inaccuracy or localisation, it goes against what the characters would actually do and have actually done and it is utterly lazy. A mere coverup for the shortsighted decision to go for first names right off the bat. Coverups are never a good thing and show incompetence, not creativity or anything admirable.

And with that... I'm done.

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

Episode 1 of the dub and I guess chapter 2 or whatever. You would notice right away if you looked at both.
It is when Tohru says that she loves Kobayashi in a sexual way during her introduction.

It was just one example of many bad localisations that changed the meaning of the work for no reason.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 4:11AM

Nicknames exist in both cultures.

Yes, and they do so at different levels of familiarity. "Dear", "darling", "honey", "cutie" and the like carry different meanings to different people at different times in different situations. The use of nicknames (or more importantly: specific nicknames) is likewise not a perfect equivalent for dropping the honorific or using the first name, but it really did the job for me.

In that case you are wilfully ignoring. If that is what you choose to do, then so be it.

Altering the text and altering the meaning are not the same thing and you know it.

And I don't see how the meaning was altered, despite being quite aware of the social dynamics at work. I feel they were appropriately conveyed in the dub, ever so slightly flattened.

Not at all. Let me give you this incredibly obvious example: So their relationship starts out on first name basis, which is entirely wrong to their social situation, but let us overlook it in charitable spirit.
Then they change their more intimate approach to nicknames, which contradicts that they still wanted to be able to use them in public, which does not fly with their official relationship in this scenario, but let us be incredibly unfathomably kind and accept this alteration.
Now let's say that later in the manga, Touko and Yuu decide to actually use nicknames now. What would the script writer for the dub do now? They have written themselves into a corner for absolutely no reason but lazy convenience. That is why you never overstep your boundaries in localisation and try to keep as truthful as possible in an unfinished series.

There, I gave you a reason beyond the farily obvious change of character dynamics.

The author's intent always supersedes the reader's convenience. The cultural context supersedes the ideal of being universally applicable.

I generally agree. Thing is, I think the dub does an excellent job of relaying the author's intent and I don't think leaving honorifics in would be relaying the authors intent better, just in a different way.

And I never argued for putting honorifics in. I argued for not changing the actions of characters for the sake of localisation. Not to do something that goes against their character. The dub did not convey the author's intent in that moment, it conveyed the script writer's.

You don't. Change. Character. Dynamics. Or. Personalities.

Which is exactly what happened in the localised version. The characters weren't changed. Their dynamic wasn't changed. Just the way they expressed their dynamic was adapted to the target language. We needn't even talk adaptation to culture here, just language. "Senpai" is not a word in the English language, and neither are other honorifics.

See, that is where I believe you are wrong. You are far too happy with your supposed "brilliant loophole" and ignore the basic alteration to the character dynamic it is. I am not even asking for suffixes here, simply changing from last to first names was entirely feasible to do. Nicknames on the other hand are not part of the original text. Nicknames exist in both cultures. Nicknames can still be used later by Yuu and Touko, therefore forcing them in early is twisting the intention. The localisation made the characters act in a way that they wouldn't. That is not a basic translation issue, it is alteration of the source material.

Whether they knew of the scene is an interesting question, but I'm very happy with the result either way. I could very well imagine an ambitious translator/script writer setting their mind to creating a version that flows as naturally as possible in English by reducing foreign idiosyncrasies in the text. I wholeheartedly appreciate the effort as well as the result.

Altering the text and altering the meaning are not the same thing and you know it.

Truth be told, this just feels like the old "dubs vs subs" debate reloaded, and I think we should maybe stop now. You can have the final word if you like. I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" either way, and I'm not really on a mission to convert anyone.

It is not at all. I never judged the dub, I judged the script . If this had been done to the officially licensed manga I would have had the exact same reaction. The author's intent always supersedes the reader's convenience. The cultural context supersedes the ideal of being universally applicable.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 2:46PM

That new episode was nice. I always enjoy when a good deed is found out through a third party by the one who would never have known otherwise. It makes me really happy when Momo has a good opinion of Shamiko~

So, Mangarock had the 16th chapter for about a week now, and it’s gonna be shutting down soon-ish. Can we get that chapter here anytime soon?

Don't worry it's still available on half a dozen other manga sites.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 2:32PM

Nicknames were not at all acceptable for Yuu and Touko's relationship at that point and simply changed
their characters.

Remember, it's being localised into a culture that is not Japanese. As such, nicknames are perfectly acceptable early in a relationship. Many people start using them pretty much from the get-go. It would be similarly acceptable for Touko to refer to a junior student and friend as "XYZ, dear" as it is for a senpai to refer to a kouhai by their first name. Less hierarchical, probably, but then again: the target culture is less hierarchical to begin with.

Irrelevant. Yuu and Touko are not from some imaginary fantasy world, they are from Japan. We do not change cultural contexts to suit our audience just because it is okay in their cultural sphere. You don't. Change. Character. Dynamics. Or. Personalities.
For Yuu and Touko to use nicknames in their relationship was not appropiate nor something they would do except maybe as a one-off joke. The scene with Sayaka made it even stupider and actively hurt it even more. If they knew that this scene would happen, they would not have made them address each other by first name from the start. It isn't even that much of a cultural dissonance to address someone by last name. It is entirely ridiculous to assume that the majority of anime watchers would not be aware of this cultural nuance.

Your argument sounds like this "Well if we translate their words, might as well translate their cultural background to American!" That is not what a localisation does.

That is a negative alteration. Influencing the audience's perception of what the source material says is a heavy >responsibility that should never be abused, lest we get nonsense like the "I am not into girls or dragons" line by >Kobayashi in the dub of Dragon Maid or the "we are cousins" nonsense in Sailor Moon.

I rarely use absolutes as factual statements, but no matter how close the translation is, you are never reading or watching the source material, unless you've got near-native skills in the source language and culture and are thus actually reading/watching the original version. Even if it's Japanese VO with subtitles, it is not the original version. It is not how the creator originally wrote it or intended the media to be consumed.

That is a bad excuse to give localisors free reign to abuse their power. The idea is to be as close as possible to the original, not to perfectly imitate it. Those lines I mentioned are blatantly wrong and go against what the original tried to convey. Therefore they are unacceptable. We are not talking about sentence structure or idioms here, this is a intentionally altered meaning.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 1:51PM

Hence my omission of honorifics - they're just not a thing in either German or English, so they're dropped, or rather replaced. Calling back to Marissa Lenti's script for the anime again, I think she's done a stellar job for the most part, even with the scene in chapter 11/episode 7 (?) where names and honorifics become the main subject of dialogue. She instead goes for nicknames, which isn't quite as easy to consistently implement, but works out quite well. For that episode, it would have worked out perfectly if she'd thought to have Touko refer to Yuu as "Yuu, dear" instead of just having Sayaka remark that "something feels off" in general.

Sorry, this just doesn't fly with me. It was a blatant error on the localisation's part and ignorant of the cultural context. I'm the last person to care about honorofics in almost any context, but when it is essential to the plot or the dynamic, I will not overlook it.
That decision entirely made me feel like the localisation team did either not read/watch ahead (which they really should!) or that they were willing to sacrifice integrity of the original work for an ill-conceived attempt at keeping away from having to use last names at all costs.

If you do not have an equivalent word for a food dish in English, you don't just substitute it with something else. If someone suddenly called Okonomiyaki "grilled pizza" I would first laugh and then facepalm.

Making it more agreeable to the dub watcher's ears is certainly the goal of a localization, but not by sacrificng the sense of the original. Nicknames were not at all acceptable for Yuu and Touko's relationship at that point and simply changed their characters. That is a negative alteration. Influencing the audience's perception of what the source material says is a heavy responsibility that should never be abused, lest we get nonsense like the "I am not into girls or dragons" line by Kobayashi in the dub of Dragon Maid or the "we are cousins" nonsense in Sailor Moon.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 1:40PM

Oh I'm quite aware that it was supposed to be that way in that sentence. Which is why Nakatani would have loved the irony that it is also a pun.

But in a Western context you don't speak of people in third person in such a stilted way in all other cases... like this one.

Honestly I've not been enjoying them in the manga proper. As gags in the community, sure, but I was always a bit put-off by them in the manga, and unsure whether it was some Japanese convention they tried to emulate in the English version or just a silly pun.

How could you deny the cringy brilliance of this?

This is what Nakatani would have wanted.

Like I said, I am very saddened that the 4s translation didn't keep the horrible Yuu puns. The version I read first had at least 3 of those in one chapter. It was terribly terrific.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 9:55AM

Ladies and gentleladies, keep it on topic please. People have been banned for less.

Well, with the obvious difference that Ayako was fully clothed ofc. (Also oblivious af) :P

Hence why I said overlayed.

Actually looking at the older chapters more or less the first time we saw this exact transposition was way back with Jun-kun - specifically after he asked Asuka about when she first realised her feelings.

Yeah that's a pretty good callback. Despite the confusion some have with the flashbacks, the author is rather consistent.

I agree, please no continuation of YagaKimi. I want to remember it as a great series. All continuations screw up the original story sooner or later :-((( I cry in the corner every time a new chapter of WDTFS comes out and don’t want to do the same with this one.

I am often surprised that some forced sequels turn out good and have been wrong countless times due to that, but it is always safer to end it on a high note instead of gambling for the miraculous masterpiece sequel/prequel. It's even rarer in very self-contained narratives like YagaKimi.

I never thought WDTFS was any good to begin with anyway

I think people really underestimated the weight of what they're asking for. Majority of manga is written with idea of continuing it indefinitely, as long as it's popular, and as soon it isn't, it gets axed. Stories that are written with clear goal in mind and aren't meant to be constantly drag out, are very few and far between. People really should appreciate the fact that Nakatani isn't force to continue it, just because it's popular and is able to finish it at her own term. Too often that's the downfall of great mangas, that weren't allowed to end, and over time their quality went down significantly, until they were axed and weren't able to end on satisfying note.

This.
The manga industry was never focused on telling good stories, but rather milking every property to the last drop. I can really not fathom why anyone wants to become a mangaka. Bad pay, bad treatment and forced to sell your integrity for the sake of stretching things beyond reasonable limits. Nobody ever gives the big ones the credit they deserve for being able to churn out high quality stuff for decades on a weekly basis.

A clear planned out plot from beginning to end that does not get meddled with is a rare blessing. Especially in the hands of a great writer.

last edited at Sep 4, 2019 12:55PM

I used to think that theory about her mom abusing her was crazy, but now it looks like it could have some merit. 50/50 that was either a flashback or a fantasy.

Rather blatantly the latter.

Even more likely it is just a reference to when mom pushed her down in bed and she overlayed Miyuki's advances with that memory.

last edited at Sep 4, 2019 12:13PM

^Damn, you make me regret that I ended my Neptunia fanfics now. That is a really fun plot idea!

I think those basic points have already been made here in some detail:

• As informed appreciators of what the author has accomplished here, we understand that it is right and just that the story end, soon, entirely on her own terms.

• As greedy consumer monkeys, we’ve found something that arouses our pleasure centers and all we can think about is about pressing the food bar for more, more, more, in perpetuity.

I go back and forth. lol

Well I haven't seen the writer's side brought up yet. Only that the quality would decrease if she kept pushing on. I have more sympathy with the author than the audience most of the time, so that might be my personal issue. A story's integrity usually trumps my desire for more (unecessary sequels always make me groan when they are announced, even if they turn out good).

But the monkey in me always gets riled up when things go the "wrong" way, so I ain't any better.

last edited at Sep 4, 2019 10:33AM

^I am all in for that kinda doujin (SFW or otherwise).
@MakRyuRa They never will. Can't lose the sales from all those waifu otakus.

Plot aside (new conflict can always be introduced), has anyone actually thought about Nakatani-sensei's side of things here? Writers generally need muse and a point to their stories to be interested in the work. Nakatani told the story she wanted to tell and explored all relevant paths (Sayaka being a bonus), so there is no reason to force herself to write more. It is entirely possible to do, but goes against the author's goals, therefore it's wrong.

If she handed the universe to someone else to do a spin-off in, it would work, but the writing quality cannot be upheld.

last edited at Sep 4, 2019 10:12AM

I don't think anyone should judge how yuri a thing is before the season's done. You can avoid that kind of arguing that way.