Okay. People. She got her signals crossed about romance vs. friendship BECAUSE Izumi tried to pass off her romantic feelings for friendship. Remember the whole "even friends can hold hands like this" thing? Izumi deliberately, out of jealousy, reframed Nanaki's deal with Kurokawa as just friendship. This is the thing.

People cannot possibly believe that this yuri manga by a yuri manga creator is not gonna have yuri in it, could they?

last edited at Mar 21, 2020 2:51PM

Anyone got insight on the translation of that "very best friend" thing? It strikes me as the kind of thing that originally meant something abstract and hard to rephrase in English.

But mostly all I care about is the good friendship going on here and the nice work on Nanaki's character. You can see her accidentally get Izumi's hopes up and then almost immediately act to clarify.

(Also remember, Izumi trying to disguise her own crush is the SOURCE of the whole "my feelings are just friendship!" idea)

Am I the only one wondering how come Komari's parents are so easily and enthusiastically accepting of Maki and Midori? It can't be just me...

Your high school kid (who is about 17 years old) invites two "friends she met online" to your house, and these two friends turn out to be two adults in their late twenties. This gotta trigger some alarms! Wouldn't you feel at least a little bit worried?

Wait, Komari's 17? I thought she was early 20s.

This is the part of the plot of this thing I'm still struggling with. I'm ambivalent about the husband being such an irredeemable person, because even though it's normally a lazy plot device to make it okay for him to be dumped and for the True Couple to get together, in this manga he's got enough complexity that I feel okay about it.

But, Midori's whole thing is she just smiles and goes along with things. It feels kinda thematically jarring that she's handed this excuse for leaving him on a silver platter.

I mean the whole point is that Midori's kind of been smiling and going along with whatever up until she met Maki again. It's not like, just "smiling and going along with things" she actively wants and finds a more earnest happiness in doing things with Maki. Can you explain more why you find it thematically jarring?

Mostly because she could get with Maki not necessarily because she knows that's what she wants and it would make her happy, but rather because her situation with the boyfriend is just so extremely and obviously horrible, even someone who's typically passive would leave.

Although that's maybe where we're going? Maki IS very convenient for her right now, so maybe the drama's gonna be forcing herself to actually confront the question of whether or not she's talking advantage of Maki's feelings.

Unpopular opinion but Midori should stay on her own. She is having a child and is unable to be romantically alone. That kid will have it rough if she doesn't get better.

This is the part of the plot of this thing I'm still struggling with. I'm ambivalent about the husband being such an irredeemable person, because even though it's normally a lazy plot device to make it okay for him to be dumped and for the True Couple to get together, in this manga he's got enough complexity that I feel okay about it.

But, Midori's whole thing is she just smiles and goes along with things. It feels kinda thematically jarring that she's handed this excuse for leaving him on a silver platter.

I'm surprised by the reaction to Komari; she's written really sympathetically to me. This is her vacation from not being gay, and these two cosmopolitan, big-city ladies who know she's gay and don't care are making her feel not lonely for the first time ever.

I don't think she's crushing on Maki or Midori so much as she's shoved a lot of herself vicariously through Maki working it our with Midori. I wouldn't be surprised if she THINKS she has a crush on Midori, just because she has it worked out in her head that she's attainable to gay ladies, like no one she's ever known.

I don't see her being any sort of antagonist character, though. Even though it seems... somewhat likely we'll get a scene where we see she's photoshopped herself together with Midori, or something.

When you have good intuition but terrible gaydar

om

Komari's an interesting wild card here. She's been hyper-mega supportive of Maki going after Midori, but it seems pretty likely she would have some complex feelings about the only other lesbian she knows coming over with the gal who's stringing her along.

There really is just zero reason for the two main girls to not be together already. It's not even that the other club members are any sort of barrier, there just kind of is no barrier. Nekozaki was about to confess in the first ten pages but got interrupted by an alarm.

The most interesting part of this is Nekozaki opening up to Mikoto's idiot friends.

Holy crap both these ladies struck gold in the girlfriend department.

(also 22 vs 32 really does not seem like an age difference you need to make such a huge deal over, but whatever)

Wait, why was the hero of the last chapter some random Chihaya, and not the Chihaya we've been following all along?

haruka-samaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I think a coming-out narrative is teased early on, perhaps not entirely purposefully, because Asahi appears to be in the closet, and hidden behind a veil of workmanlike competency. Coupled with that, Hinako is disturbed by her feelings. But Hinako isn't really disturbed by feelings of lesbian attraction, per se––as this most recent chapter suggests, Hinako doesn't know exactly what her feelings are yet, and loving another doesn't exactly raise the hackles on the back of her neck––rather, she's disturbed by her lack of feeling for hetero romantic partners; the lack of the fulfillment she thought she would feel by endeavoring to conform. There doesn't appear to be any necessary real-life stricture she feels evoking her need to conform––instead I think she feels incompetent, and not sufficiently grown-up, and she hopes to bury that insecurity behind hetero love success. That she perceives her hetero love-life as a failure is more important to her as another of her perceived failures to be an adult.

I think this may be true, but I still can't imagine the end of this story wouldn't be Hinako coming out. Like, her specific way of being hollow is so relevant to sexuality (and gender roles) that you can't fix one without the other. In other words, if the story ends with her totally no longer feeling adolescent... but with her discomfort with girliness and hetero romance unaddressed... I personally would not find that to be a satisfying, complete character arc, would you?

Honestly, the sister thing in this most recent chapter was so deeply stupid, I worry we were all reading way more into the characters than was there. As it stands, I can't connect it with any of the themes the story has seemed to present so far (and which the poster I quoted summed up nicely). Maybe it'll end up tying in, but it's pretty jarring right now.

I don't know, frankly, why you think it's a coming out story. It's a story about finding yourself and reaching out to people, and being loved, the sexuality of it is secondary. It's a story about finding yourself. Coming out stories are stories about finding yourself, yes, but not the only type, and the fact that she is gay does not mean all her problems are magically fixed by her coming out. Literally in the chapter just posted she's beginning to come to terms with her feelings, the author isn't dancing around making it gay or something, they're writing a slow love story that isn't mostly about the love.

Because of all the stuff about "being a traditional woman" and "having a normal life" and "oh if I make men like me I'll be happy." Her entire thing. It makes no sense if that isn't about being gay, because in what ways isn't she normal or "like a traditional woman?"

If it was just about reaching out to anyone, then why is there anything about that restrictive norm stuff? She feels out-of-place as a traditional woman, tries to force herself to like men and fails, has been pushed to avoid thinking about the ways she's unorthodox, AND is in love with a woman.... and this story isn't thematically about being gay?

Although this stupid thing with the sister might torpedo the notion that this story is thematically about ANYTHING.

Your objection doesn’t get any less bizarre to me the more often you rephrase it. To return to your original statement of the problem, you seem to think that it’s some kind of ideological problem with the story that Hinako, who is defined by a remarkable degree of emotional repression and commitment to a rigid degree of “normality” even by Japanese standards, doesn’t consciously think to herself, “Gee, these dates with men leave me strangely unmoved, perhaps I am a lesbian,” since this would constitute “confronting her sexuality.”

No, I think the story is a coming out story, and the author has confusingly chosen to make the "coming out" part of it implicit instead of explicit. I'm concerned this is because of norms among yuri readers that they prefer these things to be unspoken, even in a situation where it really grinds against the entire concept of the story.

Coming out IS THE WAY Hinako overcomes her issues with being normal and repressing herself. If she ends the story like, "Oh well, I like this one woman but I will absolutely not think about myself more generally than that," then that does not seem as if she's done a very good job overcoming her repression, which was, like, the whole arc of the story.

(although apparently she instantly came to terms with it and could openly admit her feelings to the sister, and now the arc of the story is about that one lady's sister complex, so I actually have no clue what the fuck is going on anymore)

The fact that multiple people here report parallel experiences to Hinako’s in far less repressive cultural milieu than Japan’s suggests to me that the mere uttering of the phrases “gay” or “lesbian” doesn’t have nearly the magical consequences you’re ascribing to them.

This is another one of those things I'm wondering how it can be a productive, practical addition, and how I can respond to it. No one said these things, and the hostility of "magical consequences" suggests you don't really want to hear an answer, so, like, seriously: what are you wanting me to say, here?

last edited at Jan 26, 2020 11:20PM

This strikes me as a bizarre reading—Hinako is attracted to a woman for the first time. The fact that the words “gay” or “lesbian” aren’t foregrounded hardly makes her romantic attraction to a woman “subtextual.”

I'm sorry, like, I dunno how many times I can say this explicitly? I never said her attraction to Satou was subtextual. I said Hinako being a gay person is subtextual.

I absolutely under no circumstances think she won't end up in a romance with Satou. I'm talking about her general identity and romance patterns.

Sure, but the point is that she doesn't even consider it.
When all you worry about is dating someone of the opposite sex and you chicken out every time at the last moment and the last few days all you can think of is someone of the same sex and still the word "gay" doesn't come to mind?? Twenty years ago, that would have been odd. Today it is, let's say, difficult. So I really expect the "big reveal" next episode. If not, still a good manga, but a bit silly.

Thanks, this is exactly what I mean, phrased more concisely. I'd add, her general issues are so related to being gay ("Forcing myself to be a normal woman isn't working!"), I have a hard time imagining her overcoming those issues without, at some point, confronting her sexuality.

Add to this that we're dealing with Japan here, where "normal" rules supreme. From the start, even while struggling with her reaction towards men and trying to find love, the true focus for her has been on the need to fit in, to be "normal". While she's starting to realize that she can find some happiness being with Satou, she isn't really thinking any deeper about the reasons yet. Leaving the date to be with her was just her first real act of rebellion, breaking away from what's expected of her and following her own feelings, but it'll take more than this to fully realize the depth of them.

Well, but this is kind of my point. Would Japanese readers be more likely to find it rude to talk about the specific way you're not normal, even in a story that celebrates not being normal? That is, the yuri readers want yuri, but they might bristle at talking about that stuff out loud? If it's just an ineffable "I like sempai even though we're both girls!" then it's ambiguous and vague. If it's "yo what's up I'm a lesbian," it makes things concrete.

I said the attraction to Satou is explicit; the general nature of her sexuality is what's implicit, even though every note of a coming out story is being hit. This is a story about a woman realizing she's gay where the concept of "gay" never comes up. It's like the author wants us to totally understand what these "holes" are (internalized homophobia and unhappiness about forcing herself into hetero normalcy) but wants to be coy about it or not explicitly bring it up for some other reason. This appears to be fairly common in yuri manga.

I think that's just incongruent with the story the author wants to tell. It's a story about accepting herself, and acknowledging her sexuality is undeniably part of that, but it's also a love story. I think the author wanted to show Hinako, the girl who (thinks she) can't fall in love, completely falling head over heels for someone without even realizing it. Introducing concepts like comphet and general sexual attraction would result in the "girl who (thinks she) can't fall in love" aspect disappearing. Which would be fine - but I don't think it's a flaw of the author that she decided not to take this route.

In real life, I think a lot of times these issues about her sexuality are solved by spending some time reading about it, or talking with an online friend, or something similarly mundane. But that wouldn't make for as great a story, at least in my eyes.

But Hinako being gay is central to all of that. She's like, "Oh no I'm not normal and I'm not happy being like most women and I can't fall in love!" and, like... literally all of that is because she's gay. Sure, she could plausibly have self-esteem stuff built up all around that, but the gayness is the root cause.

It's like if I wrote a story where a man is sexually abused as a child, and as a result, when grown-up, he is scared of intimacy. And then I never explicitly bring up the abuse (instead just suggesting it) and justify it by saying, "Oh, this isn't about abuse, it's about fear of intimacy." Except, like, it's not... it's about fear of intimacy from a history of abuse, which is different from other kinds. Or, I write about a kid who doesn't fit in because she's deaf, and no one in the story ever says the word "deaf." Even if it's not the focus of the story, we all know it's relevant; it's weird not to acknowledge it somehow.

What concerns me is, like, making the gayness subtextual instead of something talked about directly has some practical benefit for this story being sold or to readers embracing it. Like, "you can tell your yuri story, but only as long as none of that gay stuff is part of the deal: for all readers know, this coworker is just a weird exception to her straightness."

I’m not understanding your question: who is it that doesn’t talk about her being gay? The characters in the story?

I mean the author not making it explicit and something to explore, however it's brought in. Like, her attraction to Satou is synecdoche for her overall attraction to women, and the latter is just left tacit.

I’m going to try one more time, because I flat out do not understand what you’re saying here.

As far as we can tell, this is the first time Hinako has allowed herself to feel an attraction outside of a rigidly defined “normality” (her oppressive mom supplies more than enough explanation for why). How is the author not making her attraction to Satou explicit?

Put another way, what would what you’re looking for look like in the context of this story and these characters?

It could go a million different ways. It can be an internal monologue, in dialogue, in her noticing a magazine cover. There's lots of ways a story element can be made explicit.

Also, like, "this story" and "these characters" only are the way they are because the author chose to make them that way. There's no reason another character couldn't exist who comments on it, or there isn't a gay celebrity scandal on TV or whatever.

I said the attraction to Satou is explicit; the general nature of her sexuality is what's implicit, even though every note of a coming out story is being hit. This is a story about a woman realizing she's gay where the concept of "gay" never comes up. It's like the author wants us to totally understand what these "holes" are (internalized homophobia and unhappiness about forcing herself into hetero normalcy) but wants to be coy about it or not explicitly bring it up for some other reason. This appears to be fairly common in yuri manga.

I think this is very well-written, with nice focus. But this is another example of... hm, I have a hard time putting this into words. But like, it has absolutely every piece of a coming-out story: Hinako knew she was unusual somehow, so she threw herself into traditional femininity to be normal, and wanted a man to come along and snatch her up so she wouldn't have to think about it, even though she's never really enjoyed men's attention. But now she can't deny her feelings for this woman she knows, and it's pushing her to accept herself. That's a coming-out story!

But like, no one ever talks about that she's gay. Like, it's clear she likes SATOU, and that liking Satou is important for all this somehow. But the very key element of Hinako's sexuality remains totally tacit. What's going on, here?

I’m not understanding your question: who is it that doesn’t talk about her being gay? The characters in the story?

I mean the author not making it explicit and something to explore, however it's brought in. Like, her attraction to Satou is synecdoche for her overall attraction to women, and the latter is just left tacit.

I think this is very well-written, with nice focus. But this is another example of... hm, I have a hard time putting this into words. But like, it has absolutely every piece of a coming-out story: Hinako knew she was unusual somehow, so she threw herself into traditional femininity to be normal, and wanted a man to come along and snatch her up so she wouldn't have to think about it, even though she's never really enjoyed men's attention. But now she can't deny her feelings for this woman she knows, and it's pushing her to accept herself. That's a coming-out story!

But like, no one ever talks about that she's gay. Like, it's clear she likes SATOU, and that liking Satou is important for all this somehow. But the very key element of Hinako's sexuality remains totally tacit. What's going on, here?

This is delightfully Ikuharaesque. Real big shame about the portrayal of the trans lady.

I've just come to a realisation while reading the few last chapters (waited before reading them cuz thos cliffhangers are killing me) idk if anyone has come to this conclusion, or if it has been stated before, but I was quite proud of me lol.
What if the title of this series "my unrequited love" isn't about Uta not being able to reach kaoru, but karou that was never able to reach reiichi ...
Tbh I hope it's that so I can get my lewd yuri ending xD

Yes, the series then can be seen as a failed quest to achieve Reiichi, the character the series explicitly asks about several times, “What’s so great about this nothingburger of a human being?” and nobody ever has an answer.

I mean, he's the only constant in Kaoru's life after her mom dies, so he has that going for him.

And he’s got a cute, smart, and reliable little sister, which brings us full circle to the initial question, “Who or what is this series actually about?”

I think it's about Uta ending up with that +1 in her friend group who had the crush on her teacher.

I've just come to a realisation while reading the few last chapters (waited before reading them cuz thos cliffhangers are killing me) idk if anyone has come to this conclusion, or if it has been stated before, but I was quite proud of me lol.
What if the title of this series "my unrequited love" isn't about Uta not being able to reach kaoru, but karou that was never able to reach reiichi ...
Tbh I hope it's that so I can get my lewd yuri ending xD

Yes, the series then can be seen as a failed quest to achieve Reiichi, the character the series explicitly asks about several times, “What’s so great about this nothingburger of a human being?” and nobody ever has an answer.

I mean, he's the only constant in Kaoru's life after her mom dies, so he has that going for him.

maybe the actual gay characters can realize they fell in love for the same dense girl and try to work something out between them, Uta x Risako now lol.

What's frustrating for me is that I was actually happy for the plot of Risako being gay, and it would be the first thing I would feel nice in this story, even when Risako's liking would surely be unrequired as well. (not saying the story is bad, just saying the story is interesting to read but gives a bad feeling when you do).

But now the author is taking that away too, by making Risako's character look really cold and manipulative. Waiting how this will pan out though.

This author must be pretty cynical irl.

I think the idea is that Risako has this tragic flaw where she comes across as so cold and together, everything she does seems like a deliberate master plan even when it's reactive, emotional, or flailing. Her behavior in this chapter is not particularly evil-genius... she seems to legit believe she and Kaoru will be best gal pals with Reiichi off the table, and then later she childishly tries to make Kaoru jealous. There's a kabillion panels, both in the present and in the flashback, where she just seems totally nonplussed by something Kaoru does.

That exchange on page 19 is really... odd, though.

K: It just means you're really falling in love with him.
R: Is this what love is?
K: I think so?
R: Then I just can't understand. I've searched so many times for a reason, and now I feel gross unable to find one.

Maybe it's the translation, but what is she talking about in that last time? A reason... she's in love with Reiichi? Why would she 'search so many times' for a reason that she loves him, when she was just now led to the conclusion she loves him?

One thing the author has done really well though is create this irony where there's so, so many reasons where Reiichi and Kaoru should not get together, and we have to see it slowly playing out because of tragedy and guilt.