the two are completely separate traits that have nothing to do with each other.

Plot points have nothing do to with the creative process of writing a story?

A story can be cliche and unoriginal. That doesn't automatically mean its quality has gone down, because there are so many other factors that contribute to a plot's quality.

Yes it does mean that. Put it this this way. Let say I read a book and It has well written grammatically, has good prose etc... Suddenly I find a typo, the quality has gone down. But it's only a small instance, it doesn't mean that I'll throw it in the garbage and call it a "shitty story" like you've said in the end of your last post.

Cliches may have negative connotations, but whether those connotations are true for a story or not, depends on many other variable factors.

No it's always negative. What changes, is how good all other parts of the creative process is to compensate for it.

A man has a bad habit of never putting down the toilet seat after he's finished. He has no other bad traits. A second man has the same bad habit but he also is prone to anger, thinks only of himself, never cleans up, etc... Both have the same fault, yet the first man is definately more eligible to marry.

Why? Because he has other qualities to compensate for what he has wrong/bad.

A blister covered up is still an imperfection on the skin.

Read my previous posts.

I did. You simply said the same thing that it's not the cliché being used the problem it's how you use it afterwards. This is a meme everyone seems to parrot, because they "like" the story better when that happens. This is the dilemma people have with Moral vs. Legal.

Again, the usage of cliché "well" doesn't make the fault dissappear. At least not to an objective critic.

Cliches have nothing to do with about whether something is trivial or not. It's about how common or overused a concept is.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trivial

Love stories are most definitely cliche.

No. History time? The term cliché was coined when there was an influx of cheap/barely different from one another stories because pressing paper with "new" revolutionary machines happened.

The clichés wasn't the concept or love or love story but rather the situations depicted.

Love at first sight from the rich count after the breadgirl caught his hat or situations that were time specific. I'm not well versed in cheap romance stories on the back of newspapers from the 1700s but you get the idea.

This is why the story of a "boy" isn't cliché but if you say "the adolescent boy is going to save the world" it does become cliché ie. Shounen stories.

But why don't you ask Nya-chan to define a few cliche moments for you? Because apparently 99% of the events in FF are cliche.

Wow you must be a gold medal champion for mental gymnastics

You are too, claiming a cliché is seperate from the creative procress in a story, I'm astounded you could do such gymnastics.

Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim that some event is "cliche" lmao

I also could claim the same of you, erroneously using the term over and over. I could presume you defend that incorrect usage of term to defend tooth and nail FF which you are invested heavily in.

I could rephrase as well ahem : Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim a coiché isn't inhenrently "bad" roflcopterBBQlmaoayyyyy

Also, really? Calling me tryhard for debating something on a forum?

An author could write the most original, creative, out-of-this-world plot ever, and it could still be a shitty story.

Again, it wouldn't. That's an hyperbole, which you seem fond of using to make it look like my arguments are less sound. Nice try though.

---

If you've noticed the tone of the second part of my post is less nice, do you know why?

This:

But why don't you ask Nya-chan to define a few cliche moments for you? Because apparently 99% of the events in FF are cliche.
Wow you must be a gold medal champion for mental gymnastics
Holy crap the length some ppl will go to claim that some event is "cliche" lmao

I don't think I deserved any of these snide remarks nor attempt at belittlement, my posts have always neutral. In short, I treat an asshole like he/she deserves.

Pretty sure that trailer is mostly fanservice to the fans... of a game that has been around for over a year.

Calling it a trailer is misleading then =P

so uh... this trailer is amazing

I dunno, I feel like a game trailer wihout any gameplay in it to be rather weak. Maybe that's just me :/

well...if cliches are inherently bad, then that makes all stories bad to a point, wouldn't you think?

If by bad you mean that every story has faults and none is perfect and above reproach then yes all stories are "bad". How can a story be perfect when a single or a few imperfect human beings are the creators?

Why do you think a lot of authours that desire quality often ask proffesionals on certain subject. If they have a character with certain specific traits, they ask a psychologist how a person with a certain condition would act and react to XYZ situations. Why do fantasy authours ask for help when it comes to describing swordplay, horseplay, tracking, sword forging etc... From a person that has a certain experience.

There's also continuity errors in many work.

So TL;DR All stories are "bad" in certain ways, they all have faults.

I hate your walls with no spacing and no capital letters anywhere and stuff Q_Q

Edit:

this story is about a boy. oh man haven't heard that before, /roll eyes. this story is about a girl, jeez tons of those. this story has a character in it, and they fall in love

See this isn't a cliché because there's nothing trivial about the concept of a human being or a "boy" or "girl" and love.

These are timeless concepts and ideas. Well as timeless as one can get.

These aren't cliché, but the car accident is. Not only has it entered the realm of banality but it will also loses it meaning and grip in the future. It's quite possible we won't use cars in the distant future.

last edited at Oct 21, 2015 1:29PM

Cliches are unoriginal. But that doesn't mean that they necessarily establish a stale, unoriginal story.

I've never said that but it does affect a story negatively. A few moments of lesser quality does not mean something is garbage, but it prevents it from... For example being a masterpiece.
Although you can go find any critic of any literature work and they'll still find a billion flaws and things to nitpick =P

Writing, plot development, characterization, etc., are all elements that contribute heavily to any story.

Absolutely.

I think if you actually read his/her arguments, you'd be hard pressed to find anything objective at all. Refer to my comparison above.

Yes, she got lost trying to explain more in depth why she found her boring and uninteresting, which failed to be convince because they weren't... very convincing.

But her core argument was the that the work lost points because of the (over)usage of clichés.

You still haven't brought forward an solid argument against cliché = inhenrently negatively impacting. So that point still stands.
This was the core argument against the "quality" of FF that I gathered from her post(s).

Perhaps you've overreached when you said clichés are not innately bad? I mean... That did make me jump ^_^ Bold words being said and all.

Again, I only took part of her argument. Which indicates that clichés = negative to a work of fiction. I never stated nor implied FF was bad or uninteresting just that by using clichés it was worse for it. I am merely pointing out that clichés do decrease the overall quality of FF by being what they are.

I feel like I repeated myself a billion times, sorry. The tireness is getting to me on this fine evening.

Ken, what are you doing?! Why are you letting such a cute gemstone alone?

What does having an arranged marriage even have anything to do with whether FF is a good story or not? Did you not read anything I said?

An arranged marriage would be an arc. A "bad" arc would certainly have something to do with FF being a good story or not. A bad arc would weaken the overall quality of a story.
Do note here that I'm not taking any side(yet), no bully pls.

Once again, cliches are not inherently something negative, it is largely dependent on the context and how the author uses them.

Oh but they are. Clichés as a definition are something that has because so commonplace that it has approached the realm of banality. They've become so commonplace that the majority have become numb to them. Be it a story or a saying ie. Raining cats and dogs.

When something is commonplace, as an individual you react less strongly because it has become routine. That's just "normal" human heaviour, his is why repeated actions, like a factory job makes one feel numb.
A story is definately weaker if the emotions it gives the reader is reduced.

A cliché is inherently something negative. As for the second part, it's true that it helps if the action(s) that stereotype helps reduce the negative aspect.
But if someone were to do a literary critic of FF, this would surely be pointed out.

Certainly whether we find a story enjoyable or not ultimately comes down to personal opinion, but to say thay using cliches automatically means that a work is subpar, is silly.

So to recap, you asked Nya-chan to be a bit more objective than "I don't like it". I think her saying this work uses a decent amount of a well established prejorative term in liteature is fair.
I think you would be hard pressed to find something more "objective" than that.

Now it would seem you contest this idea that it is inherently bad, well that's a rather tall ordeal would you not agree? To go against centuries of establishment.

Do you dare?! =P

Now I'm a scrub, I'm sure someone better at Engrish and language arts go discuss this at length but I also think this might not be the best forum for this, I think the derail would be too real.

last edited at Oct 20, 2015 6:34PM

FUCK LIFE IS STRANGE and FUCK BURY YOUR GAYS.
That is all...

EDIT: if anyone wants to know my actual thoughts as to why the whole thing is bull and why it makes no sense feel free to ask.

Sure, I always enjoy a good rant. Just make sure to spoiler.

last edited at Oct 20, 2015 11:52AM

Isn't the censorship law no longer in effect? I know that pubic hair hasn't been forbidden for quite a long time, it's just most artists are bad at drawing it so don't bother.

Well the particular story I was refering to is about 2 years old I'd say? I don't know when/if the laws changed recently.

At this point, I think it's just a tradition and to be on the safe side. Very few lawsuits have been made about this.

Just put them, a few H-mags offices got raided by the police because their cencorship was deemed unsufficient. You can imagine the closing of said H-mags was a blow to NEETS who just wanted their fap.

But a lot of uncensored porn goes imbetween the cracks, but that's because yakuzas control dat porn and bribe politicians.

I'm not a big fan of PvP, either. Too often you have to build your character a certain way for it to be relevant, and for people to want to group with you. Can't stick with games like WoW or CoD.

I usually find satisfaction in PvE games that allow you to build your character in your own style throughout. Ones that give you a strong environment to explore and/or characters to get to know. Games that provide a great story. I'm still playing Skyrim, and playing through Undertale a third time.

Games that provide a great story and environment to explore. Mentions Skyrim the next sentence, this should be a crime.

Talking about the main story, or the hundreds of side stories?

The main story is pretty bad. The side quests are uninspired, the immersion is weak. For you go to point A to point B with a little thing that says "go here!" on your map(I know you can turn it off).

The dungeoneering is more linear than linear see :

http://i.imgur.com/vEqFZZj.jpg

The world itself lacks vitality, the biggest "cities" has no population whatsoever. The world feels so barren; lack of enemy diversity.

I could go on and on about it's fault, But I would prefer not to.

Let's just say that I don't agree with your opinion that the game has a good story and great immersion/exploration feel to it.

Harsh but fair

Yeah, I kept a list for a while, but then I realized I was keeping the list for the sake of keeping the list. So I deleted it

I mean, I don't think I'll ever need a list to tell me what I've watched. Unless I suffer some serious setbacks memory wise I won't forget I watched a particular anime.

Although, I always finish a series before continuing another. A list might be useful if you're one of those people who never finish a series and can't remember which episode you're on.

I'm not a big fan of PvP, either. Too often you have to build your character a certain way for it to be relevant, and for people to want to group with you. Can't stick with games like WoW or CoD.

I usually find satisfaction in PvE games that allow you to build your character in your own style throughout. Ones that give you a strong environment to explore and/or characters to get to know. Games that provide a great story. I'm still playing Skyrim, and playing through Undertale a third time.

Games that provide a great story and environment to explore. Mentions Skyrim the next sentence, this should be a crime.

who uses MAL when there is Anilist which supports import

Who uses anything list when you have superior cognitive functions.

Anime Entries: 1,291
Manga Entries: 1,145

No. Like 70% of that list is Plan To Watch/Read, so yes, I do have a life.

Copy paste.

I genuinly can't. There's literally no other way to keep track of what anime and manga Ive watched/read. I just need some way to keep away from all those waifu hunters.

There is, write it down.

Well, when I played I liked to be support and backup more than the one out bashing the most heads. Like in Arathi Basin, I'd stick around one to defend a flag when I could, unless it was clear they needed the whole team in one place. Usually the sawmill, since it had the best view of the other flags.

I think you're misunderstanding. You win by playing the objective. My main was always and will always be druid and so during a great portion of my pvp life I was resto. Since feral/balance was not always viable.

While I obviously did not kill anyone in BGs I still crushed others by, for example, tanking 3-4-5 people ( depending on expansion and how resto druids could survive ) for a set number of seconds. In doing so, it's obvious my team would take the other 4 bases because the other team wants my D so badly. This was most often in AB.

In doing so, soon a 5 cap happened and 2000-0 or 1600-0 happened. I did not kill anyone, but I crushed nonetheless. The other team was demoralized, stuck and afk at their graveyard in the first 4 minutes of the game, if that isn't rekt... Then I don't know what is.

"Support role" should not be diminished because you might have a big impact on the game even if you're not actively "killing" the others.

idk, for me it was more a team vs. team than going after anyone in particular, the way stuff like duels or ganking someone on a PvP server would be.

I think you have a very early WoW view of pvp servers. World pvp was dead ever since flying mounts and you could queue from anywhere for anything. It's not gank galore like you would think.

Again, you can rekt people as a team effort. You don't have to "go after" anyone in particular. You just have to win and be the very best their ever was or the very best you can be.

Although I like the rekterinos in PvP, personally, what I like the most was improving myself. Constantly trying to see what I did wrong.

Nope, I'd be out doing quests and PUG dungeons mostly, while chatting during the non-tense moments. I did collect mounts on one round, back in WotLK, at least all the faction mounts and the cool raptor from the crater. I tried out the pet battles thing in Cata, but never really got into it. It was neat to see more small critters running around the landscape though, added a little more to the world.

PUG, ugh the horror. Although depending on expansions the heroics could literally be braindead proof. After the nerfs, of course.

^ Yes, a while ago.

Employees themselves were surprised by the news and had started looking for jobs shortly after.

They shouldn't be too surprised, it's not like much of their projects sold. Manglobe curse is real.

Funny how my two favourite anime by them both start by "Samurai".

some ppl dont play pvp side of games at all.

Clearly in the quote Nez did in fact say she pvp, albeit rarely and not seriously.

For me at least it's more like a group vs group thing, rather than "I'm gonna make that individual dude feel the pain".

I think you were a bit too hung up on the "feel the pain". Group vs group, in the case of wow, would be BG and arenas. You play with your guildies/friends and curbstomp the other team.

I just meant, why would anyone join a BG and not think from the get go that they'll win and manhandle the competition? To me it's like a person that starts a relationship and from the very beginning does not have the mindset to make that relationship work.

I've got to say rated BGs was one of the best addition for the "casual" pvpers. Too bad by that point... Erm PvP balance in Cata/MoP was... Let's just say less than ideal.

But PvP for me is an occasional diversion, I don't find it a selling point on games or anything. I played it on WoW because I wanted to try the different things the world had to offer, and it was the gateway to some nice armour sets. The urge to wander around the world and fill out maps, and largely do solo quests while chatting with my guild was way stronger.

So you're THAT player! Do you also do a million dailies and farm gold while chatting. And collect mounts, pets and stuff?

I think I'm a mix of everything but killer. Not that I don't like PvP at all, it's just I like it in a controlled environment. A battleground rather than the whole world, for instance.

I'm achiever and killer which essentially translates to being a high rated pvper, or wanting to be. That depends on how long I actually play a game and want to invest myself.

Playing in a controlled environment doesn't mean you don't have a part killer in you though.
If your mindset in that battleground is to crush the enemy team, that's a "killer" mindset.

Don't tell me you go in battlegrounds/arenas and you start with the mindset that you aren't here to obliterate the opposing team?

Now they're just trying to kill eachother in a different way. :D

Well played.

I don't think anyone denied whether Shou as an artist was yuri or not. Perhaps you mean some series of his instead?

This

They mean Stretch, which the first comment mentioned.

This artist has started a new mini series, that's yuri.

Haha, remember when people accused others of being "trolls" because they denied this is/would be yuri.

Monster Hunter is the only game anyone really needs.

No.

A child that's strong enough to break the bones in your shin, that is.

Point is moot, the child or goose is not landing that blow.