Why I say this as KumiXRei are just good friends. Yuri focuses on the sexual orientation or the romantic orientation aspects of the relationship. At this moment in season 1 Kumiko or Rei have not expressed any romantic desires or sexual desires towards each other.

This is not true though. What kind of straight friend would act around their friend like these two did in episode 8? Or if one of your friends grabbed your face and went really close to your mouth, while you said this is a confession of love, wouldn't that be crossing the line of feeling like straight bffs?
You are talking about a very specific aspect of a relationship, which is the sexuality. Not everyone falls in love based on feeling sexually attracted to someone. Romantic attraction is not the same as sexual attraction. But from what you've said it seems as if there can be no romantic attraction and falling in love if there is no sexual attraction first.
Why would "yuri" should refer to sexuality only, while hetero includes romance and friendship that eventually evolves into romance as well? It is limitating.

I don't see why something should be very blatant about being sexually gay to be called yuri, it's not black and white. Straight couples don't need this to be shippable. I have seen people pairing two straight characters that don't have this, yet everyone finds it normal and don't need something very explicit to be able to ship them.

It's better to present a character as something more than their sexuality, because this is not everything they should be. Labeling something as yuri only if there is specifically sexual content , sometimes makes the characters be all that there is. So some authors tend to forget to give these characters more layers besides their sexuality. And this can sometimes make the relatiships more blant, as there is nothing more to that. No tension or a satisfiying backstory.

Subtext is when the characters are very close friends.

Isn't that what Kumiko and Reina are though? And tbh until season 1 there was no het ending at all and Kumiko seemed to be a bit grossed by Shuichi as a romantic potential too. Plus they literally changed a very important het scene from the manga to make it yuri. The one where Kumiko and Reina were interlocking hands in the end, was originally Kumiko and Shuichi doing this in the manga.
So I think H!E doesn't deserve the hate it gets. And I'm talking about season 1, not sure what will happen in S2 though.

Yuri fandom sometimes can be a bit too much tbh. I agree there are a lot of boring and poorly written yuri out there, but on the other hand if we get a decent or semi-decent one, even in subtext, some people will still find the smallest details to complain about. And give the opportunity for trolls to make fan of it as well. If yuri fans can't be supportive of the yuri, then who will be?
Because some readers just won't be satisfied until they see the girls doing it or blantly saying they are gay. Or even if there a few male characters in the manga/anime besides an all girls setting.

I'm not blaming Japanese for making shows like that, since they have to sell their show and make a living out of it. So they have to adapt it accordingly to be targeted in a bigger audience. Maybe this is a reason why moe "yuri" is more popular than mature ones. Because there is always that thing where the girls are still too young and their love is not "perverted". If you put more mature women doing the things some moe shows do, they would be very clearly gay. But with moe it is more safe and available for a broader audience besides the yuri fandom. (maybe one of the reasons why Yuru Yuri is popular)

So what some fans maybe don't realise is, if shows like H!E made them canon, the audience would probably be limited, and maybe there wouldn't be a seccond season. So we should keep that in mind, and appreciate what we get even if there is not a canon confession or confirmation, instead of wanting everything to be "perfect".

I see what you mean, but it depends on the type of echii. NTR in particular seems to be female friendly as well though.
I don't find it too much, but maybe it's just me. When something is mostly male targeted, it feels like the drawings are more messy and over the place. Like too much going on in one picture.
For example, Valkyrie Drive type of echii.

idk what you mean here, in relation to the previous sentence

I mean that since Takeda is not a real threat to the main couple, I don't think there is a reason to secretely hate him just because he is a guy in a yuri manga.

Uh idk, I remember quite a few angry reactions when it was hinted that he'd beat/was abusive with Hotaru, and when he tried(/still trying?) to blackmail them
People do hate him, but it's like, a different sentiment. He's like a personal threat to the girls. Ppl hate him, but for different reasons. His blackmail thing is like a subplot

Of course they hate him, I don't like him either. But it's not like we drag it for weeks and only talk about this. I think the focus is not on his actions now.

As for the fanservice, I think it's better to censor some stuff. I'm speaking from my own liking of course. I don't like the hentaish stuff or show everything, and stuff with too much fanserice. It gets boring and meaningless after a while.
On the other hand, completely dry of fanservice is not the best either (like not even kissing), so to me personally something like NTR is the best amount of fanservice.
I also don't get this thing when people get dissapointed when the nipples are censored. I mean, the whole damn thing is showing lol, there is not much of a difference with or without that dot (nipple). Always in my opinion of course.
Because its purpose is to built the tension, not to be hentai.

If the author decides to make him go nasty have no doubt they'll jump out from the closet with their torches and forks ready.

I think this is a bit of a strech. It's not the fact that he is a guy, it's the fact that he supposedly poses a threat to the main relationship. But most people know this is actually not true, so I don't think they secretely hate him. Just look at Fujiwara. He is the ultimate asshole, yet people get angry with Hotaru more. Because Fujiwara is not a threat to the main pairing.

Takeda is the nicest here, and I personaly don't want to see him getting crazy too. We need some diversity of characters and if he becomes yandere or something this will feel too flat. They don't exactly use him, it mostly just happens because of the situations. And Hotaru was trying to fix this situation between him and Yuma.

Also I wanted to say that this manga has exactly the right amount of fanservice imo.

Oh come on, Lily Love's drama is really bad. It's full of bad chliches and more forced plotlines than Citrus. I don't think Citrus' drama purpose is to scare people for Yuzu and Mei's relationship. It's inevidable drama between two (different) people being in a relationship together.
It does feel rushed a bit though. I think the author adds the new characters to create a storyline, because maybe she doesn't know what else to write at that point.

I think it's still popular because it was quite good in the beggning and now people keep on reading it anyway. But definitely not that hype it had 2 years ago.

If you are open to the idea of hating it less, maybe try to read chapter 9. Hotaru gets better after that. And honestly, I changed my mind about her after that chapter too.
If she kept on doing the stuff she did in the first chapters I don't think I'd like her. But after that you can see how she is not just manipulative, she is also someone who is hurt and tries to find the best way to survive in the situations presented to her. So it's easier to see things from her pov as well.

99% of time in a yuri manga with het / bi, yuri end is the most suitable and wanted, because it's usually the purest / most honest / where the real love lies.

But you see, this is a misconception. Lesbian relationships can be as nasty as everyone else. The trope of the abusive bf in yuri stories is just lame. It's as if the story says that a girl has to be abused to decide and date another girl instead of a guy. Or that this guy "turned" her lesbian. And I'm not referring to Fujiwara here, who is also abusive. Because Hotaru already likes Yuma, so him doesn't play a part to Hotaru forming her feelings. He is here as a projection of Hotaru secretely hating herself and thinking she deserves this.

Takeda does love Yuma, he doesn't just want to sleep with her. When Fujiwara told him to find a new gf, he said he is not that type of guy and can't just switch his feelings off like that because he really likes Yuma. (that scene where they were eating at McDonald's)
But that shows how the love sould be mutual, and even if someone makes everything right, this still doesn't mean they can win over a person's heart.

If Hotaru and Yuma get together in the end, I think there will be some different development in their relationship instead of Hotaru controling Yuma. Yuma has shown multiple times that she likes Hotaru this way as well, even if she doesn't realise it.
I wasn't expecting much, but after I saw Hotaru distancing herself from Yuma, I think she can also stop when it's necessery. So far after that chapter where she said she gives up and wants to move on, we haven't seen her doing the same stuff she did to Yuma in the past.

How can you apprehend a story purely objectively ? Are you a bot ? While you have to be objective while critising a story, I believe a part of subjectivity is welcomed aswell.

There is always a personal way to judge a story too, yes. Nothing can be judged 100% objectively. However, some people are just too prejudiced about certain stuff, which is different than simply critising a manga that is bad.

While I believe NTR does have chliches, for example Fujiwara being an asshole, Hotaru being like that with men etc, I believe they are not completely bad because we get some info from them. It explains Hotaru's character in a "show don't tell" technique.
We can see that she is self-destructive. And that she might care about Yuma more than herself, because she doesn't want Yuma to work in that place, while she doesn't care about working there herself.

I certainly didn't like Hotaru at first, but all these details subtly reveal more about her, and that she is not just a jerk, but also has a different side too. Of course that doesn't make her past actions ok, I just think she is more complex than a simply manipulative and bad person, which makes her interesting.

As for Takeda,I believe he does his part pretty good. He is here to show how even though he might be considered a great boyfriend, and even though Yuma knows it, she just can't fall in love with him.
If he was a jerk, we might still be thinking that, what if Yuma found "Mr. Right" who would be a better match for her than Hotaru. But his character is here to emphasise this point exactly. That no matter the guy, Yuma can't fall in love with him. And show the contrast with her when she is with Hotaru versus when she's with him.

And personally speaking, I don't consider this as a yuri. Sure, it involves two girls, but it's way too fucked up, it nearly gives me nausea.

Well by definition yuri is girl x girl. But I have a question, why do you read this if it makes you feel nauseus?

I didn't realise yuri solely involved healthy, happy relationships.

That's a thing I've noticed in yuri fandom. Some readers can't handle a bit of angst, and even if the story is not bad, it will get labeled as "bad" because it contains stuff that are triggering.
Of course everyone is welcome to feel however they want about certain mangas, but when critising a story, I think we better try to see it from a more objective perspective.

Ah true, wasn't Hotaru trying to fix their relationship?

Yeah she talked with Takeda and told him that Yuma was behaving weird with him because there was another "guy" who liked Yuma. And in that chapter she said that person (obv refering to herself) was given up on trying to pursue Yuma.
But then Yuma kisses her and she can't help it.

Well, Hotaru convinced him he still has a chance, so I don't think that's entirely his fault too. Now obvious thing will be that they will somehow cover it up and make it seem like Hotaru was checking if Yuma was feeling ok. But maybe he will start getting a different development from now on too, and start realising what's going on. But since this is NTR, I don't think he will move on soon, as the whole point of the story is that they NTR their bfs.

I disliked Hotaru in the beggining, but now I find her the most interesting character. I like how, even though she is not the nicest person, you can still see how she cares about Yuma

Love/Death would actually be interesting.
Something like Girlfriends would be nice. And to be honest, I'd also liked NTR and maybe Citrus, which I know a lot of people hate. Some manhwas are good too, but they have no chance of getting anime anyway.

But it's not like I really mind that they don't exist, the mangas are enough. I don't usually pick up anime for the pairings anyway. The best yuri pairings are in the subtext, in non yuri shows

As much as this would be nice I wouldn't really count on it. Still, on an off note, have you tried Kuttsukiboshi? It's a 2 ep OVA but it's rather character driven. IIRC, the Candy Boy OVAs from a few years back are also not so high on the "moe" aspect.

I remember watching Kuttsukiboshi long time ago. I didn't like it to be honest. Essentially it's a more hentai version of Sakura Trick imo. Mature doesn't have to be echii, but more like the characters' design, their age and their behavior.
Candy Boy was nice, nothing too major happening, but the drama and slice of life was flowing naturally, so it was easy to watch. Although I'm not into incest.

There are some yuri mangas out there that would be nice to get an anime adaptation, yet a lot of official ones are often echii and have weird character development. Something like Shujo Sect, I find that these relationships are often screwed up for the sake of fanservice.
Same thing I felt happened in Ange Vierge too, but not in this intensity. But I'm not complaining about this one in particular, because it was nice to watch in general anyway.

Fair note of advice though, if it does follow the book, stay away from r/anime discussion threads.

Oh yeah I know. It has given one of the biggest shitstorms I've ever seen. But this shows has more than just the yuri subtext (if someone considers it that) so it's still a nice show to watch regardless. I'm fine if they don't get canon, I just wish there won't be a similar ending as the books. But if that happens, well, I won't regret watching it either.

To be honest, I wish there were more mature yuri shows. These moe shows are good, but not something I personally like.

As for Ange Vierge, I think there was a more potential in the yuri department. It wasn't handled to exploit its full potential imo, and that was a bit of a let down.
I wouldn't pick it for the pairings, but as an overal show it was not bad. Last episode was just a final battle and nothing much happened. Only good moment to me was Amane's backstory, which I found pretty sad and I'd watch the episode again only for the feels from her scenes.
For the battle, I think they could give a different opponent rather than just another fallen senpai, and maybe pair the girls with their senpais to defeat it.

Anyone else planning on watching Hibike!Euphonium ? I'm kinda excited for it. I haven't checked the rest of the Fall Anime, I usually decide to pick them when they come out and I see if I find their style and characters interesting enough.

that nosebleed channels every reader's feelings I guess

I felt like that kouhai was me there haha. It was pretty funny.
Harumin x Yuzu has always been my otp. Of course I'm well aware it will never happen, but I just can't help but like their moments anyway. Harumin is the coolest girl here.

I think the name Moratorium, as stated in the end of the chapter, pretty much explains this whole situation.
It's refusing to grow up and take responsibilities or start working. In here specifically, it's more like a metaphor for their situation. They both refuse to grow up and resolve their relationship, whether they stay together or not.
So they stay trapped in this cycle and don't move on.

I think this is bad for both of them. For Itsuki it's finding someone who likes her this way and having a healthy relationship with them, and for Mao it's facing the underlying causes that lead her to this situation.
As we've seen, she can't make friends easily and she clings to that one person who paid her attention.
Is her love really romantic, or is it confused as romantic love because Itsuki gave her attention and made her feel special?
This is backed up more by the fact that Itsuki is a very skilled person, both socially and in her work, so such a person paying attention to Mao boosts her ego even more. So maybe her need to feel important and wanted is being satisfied by being with Itsuki, because she can't do it by herself.

Itsuki on the other hand doesn't seem to be obsessed with Mao, as she says that she doesn't intend to stay with her like that forever (when she was taking a bath)
So her letting the phone there on purpose, was to give Mao a hint that she won't stay like that forever. I don't think it was to drag her down more or manipulate her. Mao is already too clingy with Itsuki, so there is nothing more to gain by making her jealous. It's a warning.

She also says that she didn't intend to live with Mao in the begging. But her feelings made her accept it regardless, because she is obvously in love with Mao. But if she was trying to manipulate Mao to stay with her she wouldn't say these two things.

I don't really think that Itsuki has been manipulating Mao. She is just smarter than Mao thinks, and also choses to stay in this situation and not move on from Mao. She likes her and probably finds it less painful to try to move on, unless she really needs to.

Mao is attracted to men but hasn't fall in love with one, yet the exact opposite happens with Itsuki. Besides the fact that this is also an orientation (if she is trully heterosexual but homoromantic) I believe that maybe this could also be a mechanism for her to stay away from getting too close with someone. Like being with someone but keeping an emotional distance at the same time.

The way this ends, I do believe that at some point they will eventually drift apart. Itsuki will probably realise this goes nowhere and will end it. Maybe Mao will get even more desperate then and even try to sleep with her, but Itsuki will see how this can't work.

btw, how could Sungji be still working there? Wouldn't anyone in her situation wanna quit her work? The way that the characters are dealing with their situations in recent chapters are beyond my knowledge!!! I find it difficult to believe that anyone would deal with that kind of problems that way.

I can understand why Sumin still works there. But not sure about Sungji. Maybe she doesn't want to show weakness, or even wants to still be near Sumin despite what happened. Or she will quit in the near future

Plot twist! Maybe mole guy did sleep with Seju's mom, so he's Seju's real dad. The chairman didn't know about this so he assumed that Seju was his child? (or they didn't sleep together but they had a moment where it makes him feel responsible to look after Seju...) so many possibilties

This is always making me so confused. If Mole guy is the real father of Seju, then is he also Chairman's son? And he slept with his father's wife?
I just hope he is not the real father. I like the Chairman for Seju's father tbh. He is not creepy

Also I don't mean Sungji to be related to Seju's familly in any way, I mean her getting involved in this situation somehow. Because her part of the story seem quite detached from the rest of the story so far. And Seju's part seem to get bigger. So if she is to end up with Sumin, doesn't she have to contribute to this as well?

When Nami said I won't say anything to weight one side I thought she meant Seju and Sungji, not Seju and Sumin

There are some stuff I didn't get in this chapter.

Mole guy says something about an affair of Conglomerate owner and Secretery. Was that secretery Seju's mom? I also assume she was actually killed. And is that mole guy really her son or nah?
Then he said that compensated for that scar by giving Sumin revenge over Seju. Does that refer to Sumin using her incident with mole guy as a way to guilt trip Seju, or something else happened that Sumin did to Seju and we still don't know.

Right now it seems that Sungi and Seju stories are irrelevant to each other and the only thing common they have is Sumin. But Sungji has to play a role in this situation. They can't make her irrelevant to this plot, so maybe she plays a role in Seju's situation in the future. I just hope noone blackmails her to leave Sumin or anything, but that car in the end is a bit ominous

last edited at Sep 18, 2016 12:12PM

Sorry I thought since the raws have been posted here I could write without the spoilers

Wow...it seems like Yuma is slipping into the darkness together with Hotaru now. She went as far as to work at that place again and do these stuff in front of these men...This is a bit borderline, hope it doesn't continue.

Imagine what Hotaru will be doing, now that Yuma was the one who kissed her first. Also Takeda watching them in the end probably is just a bait and they will shrug it off

last edited at Sep 17, 2016 7:08PM

I was always thinking about Yuzu's friends from Middle School and whether Saburuta would ever bring them back, so we get their reactions to them finding out about Yuzu dating a girl. I hope Mei shows compassion this moment and not act stiff again.

Btw that freshman who was looking up to Yuzu got a nosebleed when Yuzu kissed Harumin haha. She ships them lol

last edited at Sep 17, 2016 6:47AM

Interestingly to note, Eins is the only Ouroboros Darkness affected EXR member that actually placed her "destroy the world" mission as something secondary to her battle with Nya, and since it has been established that the darkness amplifies the host's inner desires and how her dialogue actually got more flirtatious in the battle, I think there's a really high chance that Eins is in love with Nya.

Also in the first episode Ein's facial expressions were pretty flirty. I shipped them from the beggning. But to be honest, Nya doesn't seem to be in love with her from what has been shown last episode. I don't think it would be a good arguement that Nya is automatically in love with Eins because this show has yuri in it. You could consider that her feelings come from regret to what she's done to Eins in the past. It can very well be interpreted without the romantic attraction.

I think they handled the yuri wrong in this show. It's more for fanservice instead of developing actual good ships. I was kinda dissapointed how Alma was developed after her episode with Sofina. Since they went as far as giving an actual kiss and making the show officialy yuri instead of just undertones/subtext. They could make it more serious to be more interesting imo.