This manga seems to strongly insist that Miwa is much more attractive than Saeko. I must respectfully disagree.

Just the kind of story you'd expect from the author of [checks]... 'Girls x Sexual Harassment Life."

last edited at Jun 14, 2020 2:46AM

The drawing on page 19 is somehow stark and evocative because it captures their feelings and isolation but also simultaneously hilarious because LOOKIT HIS TINY LITTLE HEAD

You said you might be interpreting it wrong. People told you why you're interpreting it wrong. You get annoyed that people tell you you're interpreting it wrong and insist you're interpreting it right. I want to know what exactly your goal is in this conversation. You wonder what other people think, yet despite many people telling you exactly what they think, you keep dismissing them and trying to force people to discuss only your interpretation instead, when people clearly told you why they disagree with it and don't want to discuss it.

My personal goal in the conversation in the last couple of exchanges was to understand whether Warlock (and potentially anyone else) believes it's inappropriate to deem anything about a manga to be problematic, or whether THIS PARTICULAR interpretation of a manga's problematicness was wrong. Those contradict one another, but he was arguing both simultaneously, which is extremely confusing.

I think it's important because frankly if "the very question if something can be problematic is ridiculous and unwelcome" is a norm around here, that's a sign of a poisonous community and I know not to post here anymore. If it's the latter, that's just a disagreement and it doesn't matter.

Beyond that, I'm confused about your "force people to discuss" thing. How's anyone forcing anyone to do anything?

last edited at Jun 7, 2020 3:58PM

Jesus, karp—you don’t like the pattern, and you want “development” you’re not getting—do you think anybody doesn’t get that? I know perfectly well what you’re arguing, and have from the start, since you keep repeating it over and over.

...but I'm not just saying "I don't like it." I'm pointing out that it's a pattern and asking what other interpretations would explain it, given that it's not leading to character development or anything else dynamic. Again, like, what's the problem with that? It's discussion.

Your lack of reading comprehension suggests that there is something seriously wrong here—I explicitly said that (in your hyperbolic interpretation) Kase is being Puritanical (“slut-shaming”), not you.

Oh, well this makes a little more sense, so thanks for the clarification. But it's not like Kase (or the author) has to have puritanical beliefs in order to have this happen, so I'm still not sure we're on the same page.

You seem amazed that everyone doesn’t have the same visceral disgust with this series that you do, and nothing anyone says seems to change that. I’m certainly done trying.

No, I'm amazed that a small number of people (you and maybe 1 or 2 others) were surprised that I was making the interpretation I was making. That is, I would have thought that, even if people disagreed with my interpretation, that making an interpretation using that kind of lens would be old hat in a community like this.

Speaking of which, I'm still very curious about this:

You're kinda trying to have it both ways, here. You're chiding me for trying to interpret the story's themes in the first place, but then you spend the rest of your post telling me my interpretations of those themes are wrong. I'm confused:
Are you against the very notion of asking the question if anything in a manga is problematic (as the above suggests), or do you think this particular manga isn't problematic (as you suggest below)? The former nullifies the latter, so I don't get your stance.

I bring this up again because I legit am not sure if your hostility is from me having the pseudo-feminist framework in the first place, or from disagreement about the specific interpretation of this manga within that framework. I do not think you can claim to not be reacting as if what I'm saying is unwelcome, so it'd be helpful moving forward to know the reason.

last edited at Jun 7, 2020 3:19AM

“Unwelcome” is, again, a tendentious term—you’ve made your points, repeatedly. You have been welcome to make those points; others have found them to be overstated and unconvincing.

I'm not sure how else to describe your responses, and the responses of one or two other people. Are you trying to say your replies have been welcoming?

Pretty much any gendered depiction can be positioned as “problematic” by a hostile enough reading, but since comic fiction is not intended as a handbook of righteous behavior (if it were, your objections then might seem more relevant), but in fact often consists of people behaving less than perfectly (since, you know, that’s the basis of the most fundamental narrative building block: conflict), continually harping on how comedic characters fall short of some ideal standard of social behavior seems rather beside the point.

You're kinda trying to have it both ways, here. You're chiding me for trying to interpret the story's themes in the first place, but then you spend the rest of your post telling me my interpretations of those themes are wrong. I'm confused:
Are you against the very notion of asking the question if anything in a manga is problematic (as the above suggests), or do you think this particular manga isn't problematic (as you suggest below)? The former nullifies the latter, so I don't get your stance.

Several readers have given much more plausible and nuanced readings of the encounter between Kase and Hana, which you have rejected in favor of one that emphasizes how “shitty” Kase’s behavior is. Your interpretation leans incredibly hard on whatever Japanese term has been translated as “cheaply” in order to see this as some kind of extreme Puritanical act on Kase’s part, a reading which is completely unsupported by the overall context of the story.

Well, the fact that you say "puritanical" makes me extremely worried you have never understood what point I'm trying to make. "slutshaming is bad" is, like... the opposite of puritanical.

Anyway, I've also mentioned that this dynamic (Kase obsessed with Yamada's sexual safety in the face of imaginary slobbering dudes, in situations where Yamada is in no real danger whatsoever) KEEPS REPEATING, in chapter after chapter, with no development. THAT is the context in which I read Kase's "sell yourself cheaply" line. This didn't come from nowhere.

You read this as a horrific violation of social norms with an objectionable subtext about sexuality; others read it as a more socially aware girl looking out for her naive girlfriend’s equally naive friend. Restating your feelings of outrage at this point is unlikely to get anyone else to share them, but you are of course welcome to try.

I'm not even the only person who commented on that particular line.

But I'm still confused, because you're pitting two things against one another that can coexist. A manga can include a socially aware girl looking out for her naive girlfriend's naive friend AND ALSO contain objectionably sexist themes. That aspect of the manga can in fact be the thing that communicates those themes! I worry you jumped in to argue against what I'm saying but have misunderstood it from the start.

last edited at Jun 7, 2020 12:09AM

I'm in general just kind of confused about why this sort of criticism seems so surprising for you and maybe some others. It's not just disagreement (though again, I still am curious what possible other interpretation could be made of "sell yourself so cheaply"), it's like reading with an eye for (extremely minimal) feminist critique is some odd unexpected thing on a website all about queer women.

I’m by no means “surprised” at this critique coming from you; as I said, I think that it’s a hyperbolic overreaction to the content of the story; almost any story can be made to seem horrific through a hostile paraphrase.

Again: What is your interpretation of the things I'm talking about? If you disagree, that's fine, but I'm legit unsure what people believe instead. Why does this KEEP happening?

It sounds like you're saying I should not be looking at this from the very freshman-level women's studies feminist lens I'm using, but why? (I get this from you granting it's problematic from that pov, so your issue can't be disagreeing with my interpretation from within it.) But... why is that unwelcome?

As with many stories, there may be, looked at through your particular lens, problematic aspects to it. So what? It ruins your enjoyment of the story, as it does not for many other readers.

So this is a forum for discussing the manga, and that's what I'm doing? I'm legit not clear what point you're trying to make, here.

The "not cheaply" refers to self-worth. She could as well have said "have some standards, gal" (opposed to hitting up some strangers because they look nice).

Tying self-worth to whether or not you hit on strange dudes is pretty shitty. Why the hell shouldn't she hit on a dude she sees and thinks is hot, if purity has nothing to do with it?

last edited at Jun 6, 2020 8:16PM

"you don't make me smile anymore" and that's the that on that, proud of her. it's simple but so important, if you have no interest in contributing to your partner's happiness then what are you even doing with them

In terms of setting a good example, I kind of can't think of a better way to handle this sort of scene.

OK seriously, is it actually this big controversial idea that it's shitty and nonsensical to tell a near stranger not to hit on someone she wants to hit on (using language that obviously suggests slut-shaming), because she's friends with your girlfriend? Is it really kooky-crazy that'd be worth criticizing in a piece of media?

This is all a ridiculously overstated paraphrase of what’s happening in this story. You disapprove of it—we get that. Maybe somebody else agrees with your tendentiously loaded language, and is made just as uncomfortable as you seem to be.

What's your interpretation? I legitimately, honestly can't think of any other way to take that scene, and especially that comment. How do you read it?

The potential counter-arguments to this can only end up in a bunch of quibbling over the accuracy of hyperbolic statements like “tiny useless child” and “near stranger.” You obviously want to read this as some sort of propaganda handbook for bad gender behavior, so by all means knock yourself out—deplore to your heart’s content.

It's hyperbole to say Kase is a near-stranger to whatshername? They're friends? We've seen them interacting a lot on a deep, personal level?

I'm in general just kind of confused about why this sort of criticism seems so surprising for you and maybe some others. It's not just disagreement (though again, I still am curious what possible other interpretation could be made of "sell yourself so cheaply"), it's like reading with an eye for (extremely minimal) feminist critique is some odd unexpected thing on a website all about queer women.

Kase has directly said a number of times that she worries that, since Yamada is so cute and sexy, someone will come along and take her away. But none of that possessiveness and insecurity has ever been couched in terms of sexual purity or the preservation of Yamada’s innocence.

Well first, barging in constantly because you're afraid someone will take away your girlfriend if she has a conversation with them is kinda not actually all that much better.

But the point is, I'm trying to figure out what the appeal to this is supposed to be for the audience, to see this repeated over and over and over again with no development or resolution. It's supposed to be entertaining in and of itself, because it sure isn't going anywhere.

Also "don't sell yourself so cheaply" is... very much a comment about purity, c'mon dude.

You're right, of course, and I actually lol'ed at the idea of Kase on a quest to preserve Yamada's chastity or virginity or purity or whatever.

The whole idea is, she swoops in to protect Yamada because Yamada's innocence is hers. I mean, can you think of other reasons Yamada would be portrayed as a tiny useless child who needs rescuing from... uh, slightly ambiguous social situations that a grown-up should really be able to deal with? I'm definitely open to suggestions.

OK seriously, is it actually this big controversial idea that it's shitty and nonsensical to tell a near stranger not to hit on someone she wants to hit on (using language that obviously suggests slut-shaming), because she's friends with your girlfriend? Is it really kooky-crazy that'd be worth criticizing in a piece of media?

last edited at May 27, 2020 7:27PM

I think it was more like Kase didn’t want her to throw herself at some randos. Hana wasn’t looking for platonic conversation, she was looking to get her flirt on. Kase directed Hana over to the hut where the track guys she knew would be.

Suuuuuuuuper not Kase's business.

I cannot interpret her actions here as anything but one lady telling another "Don't be a slut." Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation, but if I'm not, that is hella bad.

I don’t know if she’s protecting Yamada’s innocence from the outside world per se. Kase seems like she’s being possessive, which could be rooted to a fear of Yamada dumping her to conform with the rest of society and get with a dude, than her wanting to preserve Yamada’s purity.

I think if we were gonna get into that, we would have already. It miiiiight happen, but I would be shocked if the reader was supposed to think Kase's actions are anything but hot and cute.

Nah, I think of Kase-san being the conscientious wingman. She’s also keeping her novia, Yamada, out of trouble with her problem-instigating friend who has already put them in a social predicament requiring Kase-san to step in to stop it. (the beer meet&chug&plug)

Ah yes, the helpful and kind friend, stepping in to... tell a person she doesn't really know to "stop selling herself so cheaply" by wanting to talk to other human beings. A champ. It's a good thing she stepped in, or Yamada might have, uh, felt awkward about not knowing what to say in a social situation!

Are... are we supposed to be getting off on this? Is it supposed to be hot how there's this repeated story, the same thing over and over, where Kase desperately protects Yamada's innocence from the dirty outside world, and then takes Yamada off to do sexy things (and thus soil her innocence)? Like is "her purity is mine alone to violate!" a fantasy? Not to yuck anyone's yums, but I don't get it.

Tip: Don't date anyone so weirdly possessive they try to keep even your random friends from trying to score. Especially if they compare starting a conversation with someone you like to "selling yourself cheaply" like the world's biggest creep.

There are a whole lot of perplexing things about this, but the weirdest is that one lady who's like "I always thought you were pretty, so I'm going to tell you that I got engaged!"

the fuck?

Uta: (thinking) Huh, she sure does go along with whatever's easiest, and she's basically screaming for help about that. I should be careful not to give her an out where she just falls back into old patterns.

Uta: (speaking) I think you'll love my brother and be happy living here with him forever!

Maybe I'm just being dense today, but I really don't know what in the hell is going on in that scene.

After the "it's no big deal" part, and through the whole time Kaoru is actually unburdening herself, Uta seems to be leading up to some kind of "go for it--be honest with Reiichi so you can move on with your life" advice crescendo. Then:

"Try to do what you can for now." What does that even mean?

If this were an entirely different kind of series, I'd almost think Uta was saying, "What a relief it wasn't my fault you were suffering--now fuck off with my cheating brother and leave me alone."

That's a bit too much to hope for, though, I'm almost positive.

I think Uta is very distracted by the possibility her feelings have messed things up for Kaoru (and her brother). It seems like once Kaoru starts talking about being suffocated, Uta really just cares about making sure it wasn't her crush that was causing it, so she misses what Kaoru was actually talking about. She kinda goes on "advice autopilot."

Not that she's not a million times more mature than Kaoru, but if that is true, it's nice to see Uta not being perfect.

last edited at May 2, 2020 11:37PM

Uta: (thinking) Huh, she sure does go along with whatever's easiest, and she's basically screaming for help about that. I should be careful not to give her an out where she just falls back into old patterns.

Uta: (speaking) I think you'll love my brother and be happy living here with him forever!

Of course every translator deserves praise and thanks for their hard work, but I do perhaps humbly wonder if the english in this is contributing a bit to my confusion about the plot.

I don't see why everyone's treating this as a joke. This is just a straightforward portrayal of how characters in yuri think.

Is the joke that no one ever said "Even though we're both girls" or "What is this feeling?"

Well, one thing's for sure. That girl is very sheltered. Also stupid. She'd also have to be very very stupid.

Honestly, if they're gonna have a good relationship, she's gotta make a clean break from the "this idol is the only person who ever makes me happy" mindset, so I'm not too against her turning her down at this point.

Also it's kinda hilarious that the idol is supposed to be this bitch, but everything she does is nice and comes from good intentions.

Oh good, this'll help me know what the fuck is going on: More characters!

Chapter 11 was not really focused on their age difference. The friend character jabbed at them because of it, and Wako poked back that she was old to be single, but that's kinda it.

So now that we have a whole chapter about their age gap, can the people who keep going "ten years doesn't count!" please shut up now?

What? I'm not even sure what chapter you're talking about.

"We haven't done anything worth getting riled up about yet anyhow."

uh seeing as we've established they have lots of sex, what on earth is she talking about here?