Somehow current situation about translations is speaking exactly what is happening in manga. Let's put it like this:

Translator here is Nanase. Who is not giving to Asahina (to us readers) ANY attention (better translation) what we need from her
And then comes Fuuko (other translator) who is continually giving us what we crave.
Maybe it's not the best quality we imagined, but at least she is showing with deeds all what Nanase does not give to Asahina (to us)

Well, some will side with Nanase, some with Fuuko, some with both, depends on the reader,
we are not so different from characters in this manga.

If you want to do the right thing, give your best and do your best, because this manga is gem, a real jewel and masterpiece about multiple overlapping drama triangles and it deserves the best of the best translations

So, I hope you will get my points, and finally start to enjoy complexity of the story and character developments.

Someone CREATED this manga and gave their best insight in life giving me a thrill and awe
Discussions about translations are very trivial compared to it. Just give it to us

Love you all in advance

last edited at Jan 31, 2023 4:19PM

This manga escaped me somehow, so, reading it now from chapter 1 to 9 is kind of a special endurance. Try it to get what I mean...

There is the room of Shimamura
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/adachi_and_shimamura_moke_ver_ch21#28

@luinthoron

Thank you for additional info.
I forgot to mention, my opinion is based on this Moke manga version solo.
And if I can get my impression just from manga, it means, authors are successfully presenting the idea of fated love, developing it through the story in unusual ways.

Anyway, I think idea of Yashiro as their future daughter is more fulfilling for the reader than just some alien from the future not personally connected to them

(maybe authors yet don't know that Yashiro is the daughter of Adachi and Shimamura? :)

and maybe they know but won't tell until the girl is born)
-A joke or not, I want to tell with these words how much I'm interested in reading literally every moment of Adachi and Shimamura's love story. Especially in manga form.
It's about eternal love without beginning and without the end.

My impression, this is not about discovering they are gay.
It's a very beautiful story about meeting your out of time wife. A full slow burn romance from the very beginning when characters are still unaware of their fated love, revealing the mystery of their connection.

I also think there is something "paranormal", like appearance of Yoshiro who could be their daughter from the future, a fortune teller like some higher guidance who gives direction to Adachi how to fulfill the fate.
It's up to her to initiate, she is more aware than Shimamura who needs complete awakening to remember their "love written in stars".
It looks like awakening of sexuality, but I would not agree. I see the deeper meaning in their relationship.
Everything in this manga is thought-out and very deep, even if it looks like nuisance sometimes.
That's how I get it. I could say more, but this is too much info already.

I did not make a comment for a long time, just reading around, but now I was moved...
If someone already expressed same thoughts about this before me, I really did not read all comments here but I would be glad if there is more similar opinions to mine.

Ending depends on reader, I think.

As with so much in this series—the readers couldn’t depend on the author, that’s for sure.

Yeah, I really like to think it was just an escape into part 2

Yes, yes, I agree with you, Nevri, your arguments are right.
I just did not mention Uta, saying "Some people feel safe to love someone who won't reciprocate their feelings"

It was just one thought inspired by manga, in general...

About the open ending, I would like to read part 2, a plot focused on Kuro
I really wish the open ending was the way for a side story, not leaving it up to readers

Finding Jessica Lambert posted:

Some people feel safe to love someone who won't reciprocate their feelings

Except Uta wanted her feelings to be reciprocated, that's why she was agonizing over them.

It's called a wishful thinking

....

Anyway, my impression- this is actually the beginning of healthy love between Uta and Kaoru. The end of toxic times, cleaning and clearing the road for healthy start.
I was seeing Kaour like spinless parasite, thank God she took her life in her hands...

And, there is one detail, Uta is blushing at the door. Could they possibly be lovers already, at that time?
Ending depends on reader, I think.

last edited at Feb 23, 2023 12:28AM

Some people feel safe to love someone who won't reciprocate their feelings

Maybe all of them are asexual

Maybe senpai made a good move. Maki is very approachable to Liz. Liz is taking her for granted.
Now, Maki is not approachable as always, and it can challenge Liz to think about what she really feels and wants, and miss Maki. Distancing can make good to them, to see clearly.

Everything toxic in Liz is caused by senpai. Senpai is playing cold-warm game, and she is just using people like things. She is dangerous for Liz. I'm guessing, she'll do it again, reject Liz when she's hooked on. And it would be very very dangerous for Liz to happen again.

Passivity of Maki has its reasons, and at this point she doesn't have enough info to understand anything (even if she must act later and fight senpai).

Liz, she is using all her aggression and hurt by senpai, pouring it on Maki treating her poorly without reasons. It must change, and how, we need to see direction in next chapters where this is going...

this is real..

Yes, it is.

Beautiful chapter

This is very nice and cute. Idea is amazing.
I think many people who are different from standards in sexuality or gender can relate to this tree girl. Struggles are real, it does not matter what the difference is, and manga is showing it.

And it's really funny to see how people really are questioning "what's growing down there"
Very realistic responses from readers for such a "fantasy" about tree people.

last edited at Feb 23, 2023 12:27AM

When only women are involved all toxic things become noble.

I'm not sure why it's happening, but truly, comparing same thing looking through het prism, and looking through lesbian prism, its not the same "aura".

Does anyone have some idea why?

It looks like they actually matched and clicked sexually before saying any word about anything.
Actually, there was some mopping and winking before, so it looks like Akane gave her consent...

And later, everything what Hayami said was dumb and irritating, so she just skipped verbal communication replacing it with actions. Probably Hayami should not talk at all.

Well, I'm not trying to defend harassment and rape in any case, but here is obviously something else because of mutual sexual compatibility of two characters based on non-verbal communication. They just clicked immediately.

In reality, it is not quite usual with new couples to enter into deep connection just like that, so I am not recommending skipping verbal part before anything touchy, like here.

We wish to thank to all participants in this discussion for sharing their own life experiences and opinions inspired with this amazing manga.

Bruh, that sound like it was a conference.

Hahahaha, yeah, now I see

I wish to add, my trans bf was constantly exposed to traumatic experience of misplaced gender, and it pulls sexual struggles and unwanted sexual interests in his AFAB body, interests of males or females. But it was not him into what and whom they were interested, and he did not wish to be loved or wanted for something who and what he is not.

With me it changed, I'm interested in him it does not matter how his body looks like when I know who lives in there, treating him as he deserves with all my respect and love.

And it's very similar like I (as a female) am living with a married couple, accepting his/their both sides as two different entities equally deserving my love. So he can be himself completely with me, and at piece like in oasis, whatever is outside.
And even if he can't accomplish for now his transition from personal reasons, and many others are still misplacing his gender, it's irrelevant to him.
He knows who he is, and I know. It's only important, and it's intimacy between us. And we have authority to share it to whom we want, choosing this forum, for example.

We wish to thank to all participants in this discussion for sharing their own life experiences and opinions inspired with this amazing manga.

last edited at Aug 16, 2020 10:21PM

Everything what Linterdiction said is on point! Amazing analyze and insights! (Thank you personally)

I think name of this manga should be translated as "Do you want to COME OUT, or?" according to struggles of characters described in plot, and according to sense (but I don't know Japanese words to see is it really possible that title is misinterpreted or not), anyway I think my suggestion does have a sense at this point of discussion, whatever "coming out" is to Saeko)

Linterdiction said:

Is Saeko “gender-y”/trans, or is she holding trauma that alienates her from her body? It’s impossible to call right now imo, but I’m sure we’ll find out soon enough.

This is very important remark, connected with many things I said before in my comments, comparing gender identity struggles and sexuality struggles as overlapping that we can't be sure at some point what is what exactly.
But if we don't see dichotomy, our judgments can be wrong. And it's dangerous, because we can send a person with struggle into wrong direction (especially if that person is asking experts in field for help, like psychologists, psychiatrists, etc.)

My trans boyfriend/partner is too shy to write personally in public about his struggles and feelings, so I'll continue to be his lips, writing what I know, with his permission.

I will say something about trans alienation from the body from his perspective as AFAB person.
His childhood was happy, without sexual trauma. But with puberty he said he was "shocked" getting his first period and realizing that his body will transform into woman.
And later, he realized that his body is attracting males, and he felt practically "invisible". It does not matter how boyish he looked, he still attracted males and he did not like it.

Another alienation, is using males in sexual way, "impersonating" them (like "spiritual possession" of a body of a male during sex, and leaving own body "empty"). So, it seems like my trans bf was top even during sex with males when his body was the bottom, "impersonating" them. Strange, but that is how he was only able to become unison mentally-physically, to connect with other body which is more "adequate" physically to his mind.

Next, almost always having a feeling of a threesome with just one sexual partner (gender irrelevant)

And very often "watching from above", like NTR, very similar to Saeko, but from different reasons from hers; sometimes even to get sexual pleasure from it, but not through direct connection with own body. Sex was "out of the body" experience, like something spiritual.

And during sex with female, especially as the bottom, like Saeko, not being able to connect body and soul to respond unison.
It's exactly what Linterdiction said:

Saeko seems to be a top because she has to enact her sexual desire through another’s body, in much the same way I and other trans people turn to fantasy and fiction or pleasing our partners to engage with our own sexuality without involving the gendered features of our bodies.

These are all defense mechanisms of retreat and withdrawal, and all of them involve not being able to inhabit and connect with your body.

And it is happening not from trauma to transgender persons. It is how it is. Disconnection with a body is often from the feelings that body is "inadequate", and you simply can't respond physically-mentally on some stimulation. Gender of the body is not simply gender of the mind, awareness.
And you can't change awareness how you feel who you are.
I can understand my trans bf completely, without judging.
It was his way to figure out himself, often jumping into fire exposing himself to not always quite pleasant situations. I think he is very brave person.

I hope this can give more insights in manga and in life itself.

last edited at Aug 16, 2020 3:03PM

@Zormau

Thank you very much for your kind words, and don't bother yourself with language, you are not disrespectful. I'm glad you understand now my perspective and pointing out to the other possibility (transgender) as an outcome observing current Saeko's state in this manga.

I have doubts that Saeko will finally come out as a transgender, in this story. I agree with you about it. And I'm really curious to read next chapters.

This manga is very realistic, touching very interesting subtle lines about "border gender identities", and that's why I was saying why we must observe those struggles through two spectrum overlap. An outcome will depend on person to person, as we all agreed as participants in this discussion.
I was glad to share something from my life and experience with my transgender boyfriend/partner, to clarify my points of view.

I wish to add something.

Homosexual and transgender and all the other people whoever however they are, existed before the Internet, and more more before it. Internet is just helping people to figure out things faster, finding similar experiences. So they are not losing time of life as before, like my transgender boyfriend who simply did not know the word and explanations for his feelings. And it does not make him stupid.
So he spent a lot of time trying this, trying that, before realization. Anyway it helped later, and now he is very rich in life-experiences, wise and understanding, and we are helping each other, developing and growing as persons together. And if something we shared here can help to anyone else, give some hope or insights in life, we are glad.

last edited at Aug 15, 2020 8:46PM

@MochaKiss

I am very happy to hear that you've found your own place as an individual.
Comparing your story to story of my partner who is transgender man, I see the first step to personal happiness and peace was acceptance of the both sides equally, stopping inner war no matter what caused it.
As you said:
"After realising that, I became comfortable with my womanhood while simultaneously embracing both masculine and feminine traits about me."

How it will develop further, depends on an individual. That's the point where life will exalt on another level.

Point is, having any mixture can lead to disaster of life if we live in inner war of our sides, or lead to something very powerful and exceptional if we find union of our previously conflicted sides, within ourselves.
We just need to reach that point where we learn to live as wholeness of ourselves. And everyone is individually some mixture of opposites (confusions about sexuality, about genders, anything...), and everyone have own story.

All what I am saying about Saeko, is the mixture of two spectrum (opposites) in herself, and I'm saying that we can't make it so clear and define her like, "she is a woman and female" or "she is a transgender". - personally, I can't feel Saeko completely as a woman, I'm not getting that vibe from her, especially from her mentality.-
And we must not forget "Prince Sae" and her escape from it, and I hope we'll soon find out her reasons for escape from it, in next chapters.

I don't want to define Saeko as trans guy, but knowing my partner and his experiences, it's almost same what is happening to Saeko, and I'm pointing on it.

I'm saying, what Saeko feels, can lead some person at some point in life into realization how that person is transgender.

My partner is not some younger trans guy, but he is not old as well. Anyway, he did not have surgeries, just HRT as "first aid" to feel better and more himself (our circumstances in life are complicated and I don't wish to go there publicly).

When he was younger, he experienced "watching his body from above" during sex, but with a male, and he said to me it was NTR experience, like his body was cheating on him. (We are reading together this manga, and he gave me permission to write this, and he can see it if he wish).

He also said how he felt how he is constantly lying and faking (himself and everyone), but he did not know in that time to point out what exactly it was.
And he also felt how he is lacking womanhood and femininity, especially mentally. And when he was wearing girly clothes, he felt like cross dressing. And he did not know for so long time what is happening with him.
He was living for a long time out as a lesbian, but he said it felt like cheating (still not knowing why).
He tried to live in het relationship, and felt the same, like cheating, adding NTR feelings what I described few rows above.
Realizing he is trans put everything at the place, and he started to understand himself and his behavior, wishes, desires, etc.

I'm not saying Saeko is going to realize the same, but it is possible, also.
I'm just pointing, there is a place where two opposites are touching in a same point, and person who is at that point, have characteristics of both opposites.
And must learn to make a peace between them, inner peace.
My partner as a trans guy learnt it, living by life circumstances in that point, having two opposing sides in himself. He stopped his inner war, accepting both sides, no matter how those sides are diametrically opposed. He is not genderfluid, he is transgender man, and I know it.
My awareness and acceptance who he is is helping him a lot. He does not feel like cheating to me. His body is a female, his soul is the soul of one of the kindest man I know.
That position, man in body of a woman, is giving him beauty and tenderness which I can't find in any other man (male), nor in woman.
He is my joy and my happiness, and I'm protecting him unconditionally.
With him, I have all in one. He is my everything.

So, there are transgender persons who can find some compromises making or not making any physical change. I'm sure my partner would go all the way, transitioning, in other circumstances.
But sometimes circumstances in life are not quite favorable, but it does not mean we need to stop living or fall in despair.

About Saeko, comparing with my story, maybe she would be also fine if she feels accepted by her partner (Miwa now) for who she is (but first to accept who she is by herself). And she is still hiding who she is.

last edited at Aug 15, 2020 3:36PM

......................................But if someone, like Saeko, can't express sexuality through female gender role which should be easy for her as woman, it's also trans issue.

I wouldn't call bottoming the like, intrinsically female sexual gender role. That's just too strict a rule to adhere to. Women are still women even if they hate bottoming, and some women just do hate bottoming. I don't think Saeko is out of the ordinary in that regard at all. In her case I do think her baggage is affecting her sex life to some extent, but I don't think all women who hate bottoming must have trauma around it or anything. Sometimes that's just how it is.

Like, trans men can enjoy bottoming while still being trans men. Cis men can prefer to bottom and still be cis men. I think gender, and gender expression, and sexuality are a lot more complicated than just how you prefer to have sex.

I said:
" female gender role" , not bottoming.
In that case she is acting more closely to trans spectrum

And: "Top and bottom are just assumed gender roles of male and female, but reality proves it's not connected to physical parts of a person. It's a question of identity, an abstract category and question of soul and consciousness. How we express ourselves sexually, or identify, it's about our mind and soul.
I observe it through transgender spectrum from that reason (like "metatrans" situation, - lesbian sexuality "transitioned" into form of attraction to females, even if females are usually attracted to males).
I think many people are living on the border, having a blurry line and some mixture of man-woman, expressing it through sexuality, or (gender) identity.
....

Why Saeko must have any issue to feel how she feels?
I don't see any illness when someone is uncomfortable to express a certain gender role through sexuality, like Saeko....."

So, we somehow agree to "Sometimes that's just how it is." as you said, without trauma or anything. And to many other points, just expressing it through different styles...

What I'm trying to explain, I'm observing terms "trans and transition" philosophically, like crossing over from one point to another, diametrically opposed. And I'm applying it on gender observing Saeko case.

Her mentality is more like cis straight male, what makes her behavior like behavior of someone who is in transgender spectrum.

As for the other discussions going on:

I would be very careful about asserting that Saeko's issues fall in the "trans" category, ...............................................it could seem possible that she's somewhat uncomfortable with her idea of womanhood. Being a tomboy is not a trans issue per se, though, and shouldn't be pathologised haphazardly. At its core it's simply having an atypical personality composition for a woman, not an incompatibility that requires transitioning or therapy to "resolve".

"uncomfortable with her idea of womanhood."- It's enough to observe it through trans spectrum, even if she does not need to change pronounce, use hormones, etc.

All my points are aimed to show from Saeko's example how we can't make clear line "where woman ends and man begins".
I would rather say, tomBOY lesbian is a point where trans spectrum starts without necessity for that person to go further into transition to change physical features and sex.

I think problem is, people see transgender persons as someone who must change pronounce, use hormones, etc. and it happens going deeper into trans spectrum, where gender identity needs physical expression through change of body features. But if someone, like Saeko, can't express sexuality through female gender role which should be easy for her as woman, it's also trans issue.

Saeko IS having transgender issues without any needs to change anything.
But society rather loves to call her "mentally ill woman", "not enough a woman", "broken woman"..., than accept it as transgender issue. It's easier to observe it through physical level, than through an abstraction as gender identity.

So, for that "symptoms" which Saeko is expressing, we must find the way to justify our way of thinking and find a reasons "what's wrong with her". So, she must be a victim of something or someone, that we can have pity on her, or understand her sufferings. If we exalt her situation on gender identity level, we won't comprehend her feelings.
And that's why many rather would call her mentally ill woman, than to understand her as normal and healthy person with trans issues who is in "wrong physical position" passing through wrong circumstances in life.

She could have hardships from the past with her sexuality, but I think it did not change her core; she still identifies herself as a top, because even if she was forced to be a bottom, it can't make her the bottom (-same as forcing a gay person to have hetero sex will not turn them straight-).
Technically, she will always faking in that position, and it's bothering her. She can't make Miwa happy receiving pleasures on that way, and it makes her sad and frustrated- she must lie to her to make her happy. And it's not possible. How can you give of yourself something what you don't have??? Or be who you are not without faking?

last edited at Aug 14, 2020 10:48PM

Thank you karp and firelizard for sharing your opinions, I enjoyed very much reading it and giving a thought.

For me it was interesting to think about border lines between sexuality and identity, and I'm finding this case with Saeko as very good example which shows how blurry the borders are when we are ending one spectrum entering the other.

This is the reason why I'm perceiving Saeko as a border case, she has an unclear mixture in herself about sexuality and gender identity expressions. Comfortable with female body, but unable to express her femininity through it. She can't receive her pleasure on that way.

So, we are questioning now, why? Some think it's trauma, some think is insecurity, some think it's self-hatred, etc. Always some issues.
And from manga we see how Saeko is very uncomfortable to lie. She feels how she feels, and in certain situation, as a bottom, she feels like betraying herself lying to be who she is not.
She is lying herself, she is lying Miwa,... and she cries.

Top and bottom are just assumed gender roles of male and female, but reality proves it's not connected to physical parts of a person. It's a question of identity, an abstract category and question of soul and consciousness. How we express ourselves sexually, or identify, it's about our mind and soul.
I observe it through transgender spectrum from that reason (like "metatrans" situation, a lesbian sexuality "transitioned" into form of attraction to females, even if females are usually attracted to males).
I think many people are living on the border, having a blurry line and some mixture of man-woman, expressing it through sexuality, or identity.
Transition would be just taking actions to correct the body if it goes in deeper level, but it's entering a transsexual spectrum...

Why Saeko must have any issue to feel how she feels?
I don't see any illness when someone is uncomfortable to express a certain gender role through sexuality, like Saeko. It's a common thing if we observe straight couples.
Maybe it's not a problem with her, but with environment, or expectations of environment?

last edited at Aug 14, 2020 3:37PM