I was not expecting Christmas all of a sudden.

I don't put value on scores. Especially for things that have content I don't care for, like this one. It doesn't represent what an outsider might enjoy, only what someone who is into these things does. Therefore it cannot tell me what I actually need to know, which is if this is worth reading despite everything going against it (for me).

As for Flowers, you are name dropping the cream of the crop here and taking it as the standard.

I actually sort of dislike the Flowers art style, but we're talking about length here. In all honesty I probably do equate short length with low quality, though, particularly from commercial releases.

So you agree that adding up sequels to the length of a single game makes no sense? At least that would be the conclusion.
"Doujin circle" or not, that is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. The Sakura Trilogies have total continuity.

I'm not sure what you mean by "trilogies"; there's a fair amount of standalone Sakura games and Sakura Succubus is up to 5 now. I own the majority of them from Humble Bundles but I haven't really bothered with them, even as porn. Unless I'm mistaken though there's no crossover from something like Sakura Succubus to Sakura Spirit or whatever.

To your question though, it depends on the series. Ne no Kami doesn't really stand on its own, nor does a series like 9-Nine. Its a bit more complex with series like Sono Hanabira, its even more complex with RPG series like Kiseki (Trails) if you're familiar with it. Movies like Dune don't particularly stand on their own either. If its following a TV season or Light Novel structure then I absolutely consider it one continuous... thing.

You seem to be in denial about the state of the industry, I must assume, if you really believe that anything I said about it is incorrect. My words don't need to have "merit", they just reflect reality. The het scene is even more overwrought with low quality garbage than all the others. Whether your standards are low or you really just pick out high profile industry darlings, I cannot say. For every Key release there will be 10 small company generic nukige. For every Steins;Gate there will be 20 generic dating sims. It is the way of the world.

I actually fucking hate Jun Maeda, and I'm not really a snob about what I read nor do I particularly care about ratings or popularity either. I like what I like. For better or worse I do gauge effort (and budget, etc.) at least in part by its length. And to me the low effort stuff is kind of obvious, though its possible years of experience helps, but the 4 hour nukige you're being so belligerent about doesn't really pretend to be something its not, either. Which is why your argument is so confusing.

Honestly I'm not sure how the fuck this turned into an argument in the first place because I'm just here trying to talk about what I like, not feel like I have to defend what I like for some bizarre reason. If you really feel like you need a "win" can you go pester someone else? Preferably in some other topic, because the person who has taken it on themselves to run the VN suggestion thread shitting on the entire industry is kind of a bad look.

last edited at Feb 14, 2022 8:31AM

2 for each of the original 5 couples, actually, and they're fairly short VNs in any case.

I'm giving them all Maidens of Michael since its sort of their Avengers and there was also Snow White's Night which featured most of the original couples -- Sayuki and Rikka replaced Shizuku and Eris because they graduated.

Those are generally low quality though, so I suppose in the end you still have to choose.
I think you are vastly underestimating how many VNs flood the market in Japan every year and how many of those are simply egregiously low quality or short. I am not saying this as a fact, so please don't take it that way, but it could well be that you read only translated works, in which case you are more likely to find things that someone thought were worth translating.

Actually the localization scene has always been sort of backwards. In the aughts before there was Steam it wasn't considered worth the cost or risk to translate the longer, highly rated epics so the only thing we got commercially was the shortest, most fetishy, tentacle rapey stuff specifically because it was short -- and profitable. Fan translators did come through for kamige (godly games) like Muv-Luv, Fate, Umineko, School Days, etc. but that was an incredibly small representation. It took years and years to get to the point where we are now.

Judging a book by its cover is bad form, but that VN does not look or sound like a masterpiece... I will have to take your word for it though, as I would never read it.
Kindred Spirits is an outlier when it comes to Yuri VNs. I really think for Yuri VNs ~20ish hours is considered long.
F/SN is one of the longest I've read and well, Nasu has a tendency for bloating, that's just how his writing goes.

I mean... just look at the score distribution on VNDB. That aside though, isn't pretty much every Flowers release around 15-20 hours as well? To me that's pretty average for a commercial release with niche appeal. I asked about Oshirabu the other day in part because to me its such an outlier in terms of its short length.

I mean... if you add up sequels to the length of a VN then that is a bit deceptive. In that case I could add the Sakura games up, which individually are like 4-6 hours, to 20 hours or more for each trilogy. Not exactly shining beacons of quality those ones, but there are so many of them...

Winged Cloud is also a doujin circle, as is NEKO Works. There's a lot less continuity with Winged Cloud stuff though, so I don't really think the comparison is entirely relevant. I don't think many people consider Sakura games as much more than a guilty pleasure either. They also have a history of not working well with English publishers.

With Higurashi and Umineko I do see each part as just one chapter of the same singular VN, because there is nothing self-contained about those parts. I can read any Sono Hanabira game on its own perfectly fine. I cannot read a random arc in Higurashi and feel satisfied.

Even though Sono Hanabira is written to be fairly accessible there's still 3 or 4 games dedicated to each couple, and if you pick it up from something like Maidens of Michael it makes sense to go back to Joined in Love with You if you wanted to know about Reo and Mao or My Dear Prince if you wanted to know more about Kaede and Sarah. If you wanted to compare it to something -- maybe the MCU would make more sense; you can easily skip Marvel movies but the universe is better the more you've seen. It is technically a nukige but that's refers to its purpose more than its quality... you're doing it wrong if you're reading it for something other than fluffy yuri romance and triple vanilla sex scenes.

If you really seek copious amounts of content that are also high quality, I can see why you aren't exactly spoiled for choice. Those are high standards. Although if you read het, then you probably have a lot more garbage to sift through on top of that. With the state of the industry, 80% of new releases are just low effort eroge, or even worse, nukige. My condolences.
I want to be a little more helpful, so may I suggest this: VN/RPG hybrids. Those are usually more content packed for obvious reasons and still give you what VNs are best at. And as it happens there is one of those on the recommendation list that also happens to be a OELVN!
After I Met That Catgirl, My Questlist Got Too Long! If you go for completion it's around 40-60 hours. The quality is generally pretty good, especially in the writing, although the voice acting for side-characters can be... lacking. Though it has some of the most non-cringy sex scene voice acting I have experienced... and that is in English no less.
5 routes, lots of side-content, a dozen endings, a combat system that isn't copy-paste RPGmaker stuff and generally a lot of care and effort put into the details. I highly recommend this one.

Hmm... in terms of VN/RPG hybrids Evenicle II is coming out next week and is probably going to occupy 100 hours of my time into March but that catgirl RPG definitely looks pretty interesting. Plus there's a definite lack of yuri nekomimi - though admittedly I'm actually allergic. I'll add it to my wishlist and grab it next Steam sale for sure though.

Actually, very little of what you're saying has made much sense but if you're conflating RPGMakers with VN in your "garbage sorting" then I guess what you're saying has some merit. I've found a few RPGMakers entertaining for a few hours but I'm really not into the casual rape or the "lose to win" aspect. In general I don't really fuck with them, nor does VNDB even welcome them aside from a few exceptions. Lumping them all together is really sort of misguided overall.

Incidentally, there was no shampoo or conditioner in this world. People used soap to wash their hair, but it was made differently from the kind in my world and could get hair just as clean as the products I was more familiar with. I’d read a lot of stories of people transported to other worlds setting up shop to sell homemade shampoo and conditioner, but that wasn’t my cup of tea.

Wait, she doesn't like Honzuki no Gekokujou? Rei isn't woman of culture

Lol no just making shampoo wasn't her cup of tea. She had better like Bookworm... I'm assuming Inori is a fan at least if she's giving a shout out.

OELVN really have nowhere near the length or production value of Japanese VN,

This is just outright false for so many reasons. From the reality that the majority of Japanese VNs have low production value and you are just thinking of the high profile ones, to the fact that VNs like Perfect Gold and Synergia exist in the EN realm.
When it comes to length I would say Japanese VNs average out at 5-12 hours. The really long plot driven ones or those with RPG elements being the exceptions actually. Yes, you will have your Lilycle with its 30 hours completion time or the Type-Moon stuff that is basically just the length of an actual novel series, but that is not as common as you may think. Oshirabu, Letters from a Rainy Day and Ne no kami are a lot more common.

Let me start by saying I don't read yuri exclusively at all so if you're talking strictly yuri works I understand that you feel they're 'competitive' but at the same time we're speaking different languages. I'm not saying Japan doesn't have low quality, low budget stuff either but 30+ hours is actually fairly average for het oriented moege and such with around 4 routes. Something like Subarashiki Hibi (Wonderful Everyday) which I brought up a few posts ago is easily 50+ hours. It is a masterpiece and has some yuri (and futa) but also more trigger warnings that I care to type out. Looking at charage that I read cover to cover on the MangaGamer sale right now Byakko and Hapymaher are both closer to 40 hours. And back to yuri Kindred Spirits on the Roof is around 30 hours as well. I don't think you grasp how long relatively normal VN actually are. I'll give you that Fate/stay night is a bit of an exception -- but it's also something like 70+ hours.

Ne no Kami died before its time, but keep in mind it is a doujin work; so was A Kiss for the Petals, though for Maidens of Michael (Sono Hanabira 11) they formed a proper company. Both may have been shorter individually but with episodic releases in mind. Ne no Kami ended up about 20 hours between both released games, Wanting Wings is around 20 hours for two games as well. With Sono Hanabira Maidens of Michael is about 20 hours, New Generation! is around 14 hours and there's like 18 other entries in the series waiting for you if you feel so inclined. And for the record Umineko was a doujin as well, and released as 8 episodes from 2007 to 2011.

I'm pretty sure "I just can't get into them" is a valid opinion, and while I'm generally always open to new shit to read I just haven't seen any OELVN that looked particularly intriguing recently. I'm not saying they're bad at all though, just that I haven't found anything to my taste. I might give Perfect Gold or Heart of the Woods a try, but I don't really like cyberpunk so Synergia is out. I like getting sort of lost in VN for a couple weeks at a time though, so the length of them is definitely sort of an issue... that goes beyond yuri VN as almost all OELVN seem to plateau at around 10 to 12 hours.

I find it odd to equate futa to scat. It sounds a bit like equating het sex to scat, haha. All I can say is that I avoid anything with the Scat tag religiously, in so far we are the same.

Its not a comparison; I just really sort of dislike futa and prefer to avoid it. I try to stay open minded; I just recently got really, really into a ryona which I didn't see coming but with futa I just... can't. I can deal with them if they're relatively minor elements of a long VN, though.

Is there a reason you have a dislike for "OEL" VNs? As someone who has read plenty of both Enlgish and Japanese produced ones, I see no particular quality difference between the two inherently. Quality is always dependent on budget, creative control and talent.

OELVN really have nowhere near the length or production value of Japanese VN, though they are comparable to doujin works. That's not to fault them necessarily, my biggest issue with them is flavor, I guess. I've tried a at least a few OELVN here and there, well regarded stuff like Highway Blossoms, VA-11 Hall-A, even Doki Doki and just got kinda bored. I've also been reading VN at least since I picked up Umineko in 2008 or 2009 though so I'm probably more biased than many.

I... have no knowledge of anything that is both yuri and scat, and I think I'd prefer to keep it that way. Though I couldn't stop myself from searching it on VNDB anyway. I have a pretty high tolerance for everything but scat and futa.

I know there's some more yuri OELVN out there like LIP! Lewd Idol Project but I only really know it because the dev got hosed by PayPal.

She's hard to compare to other villainess or isekai protagonists though she references Main/Myne from Ascendance of a Bookworm in the WN.

I totally missed this, when is Myne referenced? Something to do with a printing press?

Shampoo actually. This is from the LN actually but:

Incidentally, there was no shampoo or conditioner in this world. People used soap to wash their hair, but it was made differently from the kind in my world and could get hair just as clean as the products I was more familiar with. I’d read a lot of stories of people transported to other worlds setting up shop to sell homemade shampoo and conditioner, but that wasn’t my cup of tea.

While I hardly have any right to critisize fetish works after recommending Lucy Got Problems, I still would ask you... have you actually read this? Because if you hadn't and cannot recommend it, I would probably rather avoid it altogether. Watersports is one of those tags that generally have a very... unique approach to story-telling.

I skimmed it but didn't put a ton of time into it; the fan translation is more or less passable and its pretty much about a girl coming to terms with her fetish who really wants the girl she likes to hear/smell/see her pee and such. Its definitely not something I would universally recommend like Wanting Wings but I figured I'd throw it on the pile for thoroughness' sake. I still haven't mentioned Subarashiki Hibi either because while its got a bit of yuri, its got a lot more of 'what the actual fuck am I reading'. I have a hard time getting into OELVN so I can't compare or comment much on stuff like Lucy Got Problems.

A bunch of yuri (including the aforementioned Wanting Wings) is on sale at MangaGamer for Valentine's is why I was debating Oshirabu... I think I've got about everything else from them that I want, or at least the 18+ that I care about. I'm still on the fence but I'll probably cave soon.

Is OshiRabu worth reading? I really like the art style but its rather short and I've heard mixed things.

Also I forgot to mention Yurinate! for the list which is... exactly what it sounds like.

It isn't wrong, there's an overlap but they're still two separate things: https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-sociopath-380184#:~:text=The%20Difference%20Between%20Sociopath%20and,when%20it%20suits%20their%20needs.

Distinctions between them aren't really universal and vary depending on who you ask though... its like arguing between "bi-weekly" and "bi-monthly" though both terms imply a lack of empathy and/or conscience... and are also relatively loaded. Rei is a bit less reticent when discussing the Philine situation so I tend to view that as a better barometer overall. There's also a nature vs nurture argument if we're comparing Oohashi Rei to Rei Taylor, or even Claire to Claire zero but I''d rather not get too into WN2 here.

In more important news though Inori re-released the 18+ chapters on their Fanbox so if you wanted to support now is as good a time as any.

Although I do think LGBTQ+ issues are also important to her because of some things that happened to people she cares about from her past life. I hope they go into that stuff in the manga soon.

Rei really sort of won me over with her take on transgender rights; that's not something Japanese works tend to address often and when they do it ranges between indifferent and problematic.

I found Rei really relatable though... she is highly intelligent, somewhat extroverted but with very low self esteem and without much to show for either lifetime... one of the few things that got her through in her previous life was writing Claire fanfiction and while it seems she'll do anything she is generally trying to find a balance I think. When you don't have much though its easy to get lost in defending what you have consequences be damned.

Something happened and Inori pulled down spicy content for now though. Though it'll be back soon, maybe.

For Rei, she thinks that the world is programmed to only give her a romantic route with the princes and the Claire is treated as a villainess for the entire plot, so she thinks her romantic route for Claire is non-existent.

Its true that she's been stifled by the sequence of events at times but she tries to help Claire get closer to Thane as well so its clear she thinks she can change things. She just doesn't see herself by Claire's side, and is pretty candid about that.

She's hard to compare to other villainess or isekai protagonists though she references Main/Myne from Ascendance of a Bookworm in the WN.

Even though I get how that can make for a more interesting character, and it's not like I was expecting or wanted her to actively try and stop the revolution, I just can't bring myself to like her. I don't know why, since I've definitely seen characters in other works that seem to be fixated on only a single person, with little care what happens to the rest *cough cough* Sorawo *cough*, who I've really liked. Maybe it's how this author seems to have gone out of their way to tell us practically nothing at all about this person, other than the fact that she likes Claire and wants to protect her. Like, who is Rei? At least in the manga, we know next to nothing about her and tbh this secrecy seems to only feed my dislike, rather than intrigue me. Also, the way she acts like two completely different people makes her usual behavior seem insincere to me. I'm not saying that it was, I'm just saying that, to me, her happy-go-lucky attitude —when she clearly knew what was coming and had probably been planning what to do all this time— feels fake. I can't believe I came to like the ohoho-ing ojousama more than her....

The biggest thing with Rei is that she's got abysmally low self esteem and she's not really an introvert at all; you don't see characters like that often but that pretty much explains why she's so hyper and self deprecating. Aside from the Cassandra problem she's really not in her head very much. She went from frumpy Japanese OL to frumpy self insert protagonist and doesn't think she has a chance with Claire anyway, she's just kind of enjoying things as they are and hoping to help Claire or keep her happy on some level.

in this case Claire is still 100% her "Ohohoho"-ing himedere self

Please, please, don't remind me of that hideous laughter, it's a blessing we haven't had to see it in the recent chapters. Seriously, every time I read that, my brain automatically recalled that annoying Nanami from Revolutionary Girl Utena and god, do I wish to forget her...

I actually kinda liked Nanami though I kinda forgot she was an ohohohojou -- mostly I remember the cowbell.

I envy all you lucky people whose ears don't automatically hear Naga the White Serpent whenever that laugh comes up...

I had to look that up as wll as I don't think I ever watched Slayers. Luviagelita Edelfelt from Fate/ has both the laugh and the ringcurls: https://youtu.be/FW1QY76d-40

Whoever ends up being Claire's seiyuu in the anime adaptation has a tall task...

last edited at Jan 28, 2022 7:41AM

maybe i should read the LN,should i read from the beginning?

I'd at least skim from the beginning, the manga is a solid adaptation but IIRC it skipped over a few fun details. Plus it'll help if you stick around long enough to read She's So Cheeky for a Commoner.

Aside from the obvious marimite comparisons this reminds me of Maria†Holic at least in the basic premise that Watanabe is looking for a yuri (otaku) dreamland that kind of gets upended.

last edited at Jan 27, 2022 8:30PM

What's "salutations" mean?

Gokigenyou ごきげんよう most likely, its the call of the yuri Catholic school girl. Sometimes translated as "good day", its a very polite/formal greeting.

last edited at Jan 27, 2022 7:49PM

There are so many Isekai stories where the main character becomes the big hero who can change the fate of nations; so I found it kind of interesting that Rei is a more-or-less normal person who's just trying to protect herself and the people she cares about during a period of dramatic political and social upheaval. More of an action survivor, rather than an action hero.

Also in terms of villainess isekai its almost always the frumpy Japanese girl who becomes the villainess herself, but in this case Claire is still 100% her "Ohohoho"-ing himedere self with all the doom flags set. Rei is going agaist the grain here somewhat.

last edited at Jan 27, 2022 5:19PM

Why stop there when you can adapt the whole thing with 24 episodes? That's probably hopelessly optimistic, though I've seen it do incredibly well in polls of series that fans want to see animated.

12 for the first web novel would be rushing things way too much.
I'd rather go with 24 for WN 1 (and then forget that WN 2 even happened /hj)

lol I sort of get the complaint but I actually liked WN2 quite a bit.

I found one of the polls I saw from last year; part of the reason I'm cautiously optimistic for an adaptation. Wataoshi was #5 here.

https://www.anime-japan.jp/2021/en/main/ajranking/

last edited at Jan 27, 2022 3:15PM

More seriously, I wonder if this got an anime they would skip most of the early chapters to get to this plot fast? Probably cloverworks would do it.

I've read the webnovel completely and I think the first two books would probably fit well into a 12-13 episode anime, without having to cut anything.

Why stop there when you can adapt the whole thing with 24 episodes? That's probably hopelessly optimistic, though I've seen it do incredibly well in polls of series that fans want to see animated.

Tangentially he LN actually just started publishing physical copies (in Japan) and the title has been tweaked to I'm in Love with the Villianess -Revolution- which is probably more fitting of the series as a whole.

The bendy straw really makes the moesquito work.

Speedy sea cucumber.

last edited at Jan 27, 2022 5:11PM

I can't wait to see her explain to Yoshioka that she's a yuri otaku but not yuri.

But the amount of cloth and seemingly-leather boots leads me to think this is more like video game light armor than something intended to be historically accurate.

"Adventurer" in and of itself implies RPG context... and basically no one in RPGs is fully armored unless they're a knight that decides to tag along. Her outfit is definitely reminiscent of Saber from Fate, Alis Landale from Phantasy Star, and similar.