Also, Yori would get diabetes receiving cookies from Himari, and that's before taking a bite.

QFT.

It was a good chapter. A setting-up chapter and hardly any interaction between the MCs (tho, why didn't she feed her?).
It was nice to see they were on each another's minds (small girls / loved ones to cook for)... but.. the chapter felt somewhat slow / off-beat to me. Dunno why... but I'm just gonna assume there's gonna be loads of pay-offs.

I'm not ready yet to feel mad or disappointed.
The story started with an interesting twist and bang, might end in a similarily surprising / engaging fashion.

I could go as well into all the disappointing ways the story might end, but for now I'll keep my fingers crossed, the author(s) will come up with something good and unexpected. It might feel rushed with only one(?) more chapter left, but may as well be fulfilling. Even if characters died, it could still leave the sensation of having been worth the ride...
I invested quite some time and emotions into this story as well, trying to figure out how all the breadcrumbs from the early chapters and ongoing could fit together, attempting my own theories and speculations, so I am HOPING that at least some of that will pay off.
So, I rather wait and see than draw conclusions and make myself unhappy before the reveal...

The last chapter is coming November 22nd

...wait. Damn.
How are the many dangling threads and clues and questions to be resolved in such short time!? ;_;

Did she even go to that school? They ran into her at the university.

After killing that guy who was about to turn, she stole a car (end of ch54). She left the university, because she's "gotten bored of these gloomy expressions" (read: people). After driving around and feeling special for a while, the car broke down with a loud bang, trying to restart it only had the engines gurgle and she was quickly surrounded by zombies.

From the text it's unclear where she was heading, but she knew about the main group, was around when they were interviewed about their past, learned about the aerial infection and rumors about a cure, in connection with our main characters... So, maybe when she got infected, as she was trying to escape the car, in her frenzied state ("But... I'm choooooseeeen!") she made a false-but-right connection and went to the school, looking for an antidote / cure against the virus, turning on the way and her last coherent thought kept her on her path and stuck around the school.

...but, yeah, I had to go back and read up on several chapters again to piece that together. From her character and what we know she knew, I'd say my narrative is a good bet. But just like the main characters, we'll probably never know for sure..

...Oh, and I finally found her name. Ayaka.

So, that is what happened...
(Honestly, I still don't recall her name, if it was ever mentioned...)

*sigh* I got my hopes for Kurumiki up again, but she only went for the gun. ^^;;
(Still got those hopes up, because after thinking of Kei, Miki dreamed about Kurumi showing up and getting that close and touchy, whilst talking about moving on... Hehe. Miki's subconscious is supporting my ship~)

*reading up on the past 4 pages of forum and interesting deep-dive analysis and dissection essays of Citrus, while being slightly sleep-deprived*

where they sleep in the same bed every fucking night

O.O
...
-_-
...
...oh, boi, I totally read that wrong for a second, got my hopes up I missed something, and then re-read correctly and got horribly disappointed. ^^;;

Edit: Yeah, from all the smart things being said here, that was the only line that really got stuck with me and I felt the need to comment on XD ...although, mostly because everything else had been said by others already, and better. But I guess, it goes to show that I raised my hand at the "hoping for sexy-time with that art-style" query. .......am gonna go to sleep now ^^;

last edited at Oct 22, 2019 4:43PM

me finishing this chapter

Awww... that was a cute chapter! [...] Alright, now let's see what other people thought of it!

checks the discussion

Um...... the hell did I just walk in on?

Pretty much the same here...

So, yeah, I just throw my own two to four cents in there:

1. Kase double-taking on Yamada in Yukata with her hair up (first time she's seen her like this - she looks more grown up that way - Kase took a second to recognize her widdle seedling turned beautiful, blossoming flower XD) had me giggle~

2. It's being brought up that until high school Yamada's parents haven't let the girl out of the house after nightfall.
   Which IMO ties into Kase's supposed "possessiveness" here.
   Yeah, Kase's insecure ... but she also knows Yamada and her abilities and lack thereof very well.
   It's not about not trusting Yamada - it's about Yamada's naivity and getting into trouble socially for being incapable of voicing her own desires, and especially saying "no" (to strangers) - despite Yamada working on it, but tending to bite off more than she can swallow...
   Smexy Yamada may attract even more undesired attention (especially in a bigger city, compared to their hometown), so Kase warning Yamada off wearing a Yukata in Tokyo is far from unwarranted. ...especially with the history of the story proving that point.
   It may come off as weird in individual chapters, but makes perfect sense in the story as a whole.

3. In Japan, school holidays take place from late March to early April, from the late July until early September (around 40 days / 5-6 weeks), and over the Christmas and New Year period from December 24 to January 7. Additionally there is a full holiday week in May called "Golden Week."
   So, an occassional (or on - selective? - universities?) 7 weeks summer break basically breaks the record.

4. Kase's thirst - like the deserts miss the rain...

last edited at Oct 6, 2019 5:10PM

Does it seem to anyone else that most love song about love triangles are from the perspective of third angle? Might just be what I've heard though . . .

Guess, that depends a bit on whom you'd consider the third angle. And when.
There are many songs about someone being cheated on or being replaced by another party. Where there would have been two, the third came in and stole the lover away. Those songs are from the POV of one the original two. Like Madonna's She's Not Me or Justin Timberlake's Cry Me A River. In a sense, the one of the two became the third angle then.

Certainly there are many songs about someone pining for someone who's in a relationship with someone else. Unless it's clear in those lyrics, that the person of desire returns the feelz to some degree or at least once acted they did, I wouldn't even consider them necessarily a triangle - as the one pining, more often than not, isn't even in a rivalring position (at times even 'friendzoned', watching on as their beloved one is in another, at times unhappy, relationship). There are many of these, tho. Vertical Horizon's Everything You Want could be one good example here... or Sophie B. Hawkins' Damn, I Wish I Was Your Lover.

A good example for "Love Triangle" may be Two Princess by Spin Doctor - in which two guys try to win over a girl.
Albeit, the singer makes it clear that he is more in love and loved more than the other (who's apparently only in the race for material/status reasons).

Other than that, I wouldn't know if actual triangle songs really are a common thing, or if one likes to count the other two, if (unrequitedly) pining-for-someone would top out being-cheated-on songs. ...although, Taylor Swift may have tipped the scales there a bit... in both directions? Not sure...

...from the top of my head, the only song I could think of where the one who's the interest of the other two is "singing" it, would be Katy Perry's Thinking of You (aside: such is called a "split love triangle" - there's a term for everything..).
..and Robyn' Call your Girlfriend may be one of the fewer songs by someone who won a person over another. Her POV she was the third angle, but now became one of the other two.

....is that considered off-topic? Yes? No? I feel, it fits.

last edited at Oct 1, 2019 2:13PM

...shoo. Shoooo..

Yeppers.

But I gotta admit, it did what it was supposed to. I thought the talk happened at some time later, perhaps, so the reveal had me laughing out loud XD

KueKyuuQ posted:

imotou

It's imouto.

...I shall burn in the pits of hell for making that unforgivable typo.

All along, Kovachi-senpai has been telling a story about two girls learning what it means to love someone who must do so IN SECRET, because of the unknown and feared "corrective" responses from friends and family of the social norm that two girls should not love each other. Igarashi's behavior is just another manifestation of the effect of fear of severe enforcement of social norms.

Let's not forget Kovachi also tells a story in which those fears are not necessarily always to come true; in NanoChidori's case namely their friends (albeit unbeknownst to N&C, yet) being actually rather open-minded and Nanoha's imotou immediately knowing the Chidori her nee-san keeps talking about is her date without issue, to the point of protecting them / their secret for their sake...

Just wanted to leave that out there for completeness sake...
(I've already written several essays here about my stance on Igarashi, her mistakes and her take-away from them / lack of a proper learning-curve esp. in regards to her own empathy, so I'll leave it at that.)

last edited at Sep 29, 2019 6:12AM

I don't think we will see more of her at this point (her arc ended), but in my head-canon, she will later find her way and realize how wrong she was. And maybe find her own happiness.

I'm willing to bet against that. IMO, that tear spoke of things being unresolved for Iggy. So... I predict she'll return... someday.

WAKE ME UP INSIDE

I CAN'T WAKE UP!

WAKE ME UP INSIDE

...SAVE ME!

.......am I playing this game right?

As for the kissing someone asleep / unconscious, I'm not sure about manga, but I remember mouth-to-mouth-breathing attempts that resulted in the "unconscious" one turning it into a kiss (so basically the opposite).
Other than that... I cannot remember where, but I recall manga in which both parties were asleep and woke up with lip-contact (where then both freaked out, although at least one of them was happy on the inside). That never happened to me in real life either :(

And then there's the in manga and anime (and other media) often used under-water-kiss under the pretext of "sharing air".
...which in real life isn't nearly as cute, romantic or smooth as fictional media makes it out to be.

Nikaido was SITTING on the bed and for some baffling reason Tadakoro legit thought she was asleep.... Color me baffled.

...who else is worried the mother will spend the night with an ear on her daughter's room's door and waving ponpons, cheering them on?

@Heavensrun
I do see your points, with my head a bit more cooled off. And you're right. They are kids. And make mistakes.

But what still has me on the wrong foot with her is the context (in the available text); she achknowledges Chidori's honest feelings (in the past) but it's all about her own. Without reckognizing how pushing Chidori away hurt the other kid.
She's hurt now, but there's hardly any proof that she learned from her mistakes.

Just before stepping out, the scene in which she met Nanoha, she - for no apparent reason - stepped in and proclaimed the "ex-girlfriend" bit.

I mean, we've talked about this when it happened, but:
a) if she magically recognized Nanoha as a rival - that's not a smooth move, she would have no knowledge what Chidori felt.
b) if she just made a joke (as she claims) - for someone being so worried about stepping outside the norm herself, that is a rather twisted joke to make about someone else (esp. if she wants Chidori on her good side).
c) she was trying to feel out if Nanoha (unless your FF happens, where she watched over Chidori before and after the chocolate, I still go with "magically") was in any way close to Chidori - see b). Even if she herself had moved past that, she wouldn't know if Chidori liked to be dragged out of the closet, so... yeah, d*ckmove.

You mean the scene where Igarashi gracefully stepped down from the confrontation as soon as she realized Chidori had moved on, and even lied to try and cut off any further drama between the happy couple?

If by gracefully you mean, saving her own face, yeah she did that (as you suggested, that scene can be read either way).
And amazingly she left without a further fight or challenge. But as said before and for those reasons, as of now, I doubt she did so for Chidori's sake.
Even with the translation in the last chapter meaning something more affectionate, even if she really tried to become more empathic towards Chidori - the ex-girlfriend-scene doesn't help her case. Even if she apologized for that.. (but it may at least be a step in the right direction...)

One can be in a "comforting" relationship and then develop deeper feelings for someone else. One can slip up and confess their feelings to them. One can get scared and pull back, trying to hit the breaks. That's all a big mess, but yeah, it happens and is even understandable.
She broke Chidori's heart over that.
She tried to get back with her and got blown off. (Chocolates)
She tried once more (telling Chidori it was her mistake in the literature room) and Chidori didn't respond.
And then found out it was all in vain and way too late.

That's all sad and understandable (not excusable, but I get it).

What bugs me is that she cannot understand that she hurt Chidori first, badly.
That from Chidori's POV, the girl she liked had a boyfriend despite telling her sweet things.
That the girl harshfully shot her down and crushed her heart (with the old "but we're both girls" trope XD).
That months passed between Igarashi's attempts and she couldn't fathom that Chidori didn't want to get/feel hurt anymore and moved on.
That Igarashi when she returned, she first thought of "you rejected me" before being reminded by Chidori that she did it first.

There's not one frame in the text that shows Igarashi undoubtfully sad about making Chidori sad. (I can give "ambiguous" to some frames, but that's it. The last chapter could have been a perfect spot for that, but all there was was ...well, self-pity...)

"I just wanted..." doesn't cut it. Unless that was followed by an explicit "...make it up to her."
(no matter how open-minded I read the translation for that bubble, I cannot find selfless Chidori-love in there)

...

I can see the narrative you portray. Or at least, Igarashi having broken up with her dude in the intermediate months before the chocolate. Trying to get with Chidori on an honest and more ...intimate and 2-girls relationship.
As I said before, yeah, I can see Igarashi in her own mind thinking that her love was a good one and worth pursuing.
But... yeah... sorry, the ex-gf bit and other items on the list kinda work against her truely thinking about Chidori's feelings. And that should come first whenever one claims to care for another.

Even in your FF I'd ask "but wait, isn't Chidori maybe happier now?"
(I'd still read it. But I am not one to accept everything a protagonist does. Even heroes make mistakes and it would be bad form to not recognize those mistakes or to not have them have consequences. In that regard, maybe Chidori should have let Igarashi talk and whilst her cold attitude was understandable - especially with Igarashi's attitude was so non-cholant und unreflective - she could have asked her "why?" and let Igarashi answer properly... But wait-- Chidori did that! And Igarashi responded with chuckles and claims of jokes and further lack of understanding why Chidori was angry/mad at her ...yeah..)

I respect your liking for Igarashi. You do you :P So defend her to your heart's content.
But to me... up to this point there's nothing suggesting Igarashi wasn't self-centered or really cared for Chidori and her feelings.

... convince ... [cutting out the sass a bit] ... that the phrase “I made a mistake” actually is “I’m sorry I hurt you.”

Tl;dr: ^ That ^

last edited at Sep 28, 2019 7:20AM

What kind of excuse is: "Ah, I'm sorry! I was sneakily trying to kiss you, yes; but, in my defense, I'll say that I did it cuz I thought YOU WERE ASLEEP!"

Right!? What the--....
Just weird. And wrong. And not as cute as the author thinks it is... (wasn't she still sitting even?)

Glad this continues, though.

She thought dating Chidori wasn't a option, so despite having feelings for her and acting on them, she didn't think she could date her and was just content with "teasing" or whatever, because she thought that was the best she could hope for. And then when she saw Chidori dating another girl she was like "Wait on a second? I could do that the whole time? Well, shit."

Quick fact / chronology checking...

Igarashi had a "he tells me he loves me" boyfriend
then met Chidori and thought she's cute
Chidori liked her too
Igarashi remembered that 2 girls was "straying from the norm" and got frightened.
At some she point got confronted by Chidori about the boyfriend
and asked about "what was there between us?"
Igarashi pushes her away (tying into the stray-from-norm thingy).
Chidori avoids her for several months (and casts an eye on Nanoha, only friends though)
Igarashi sends chocolates and note "not just as friends"
but Chidori gives them back and shoots her down.
Chidori and Nanoha happens.
Igarashi returns and tries to meddle with Chidori (suddenly decides calling herself her ex-gf)
The Nanoha appears and proclaims her relationship with Chidori to Igarashi
Igarashi takes off.

...that kinda puts the chocolate event a little too inbetween things - with the chocolates being very much an attempt to rekindle their relationship, pull Chidori back and - as the note said - "not just as friends", and all.

After that Igarashi did nothing to implicate she still thought 2 girls dating was impossible - so I'd say random's argument that Igarashi's reaction wasn't about 2 girls (despite what she said) but grasping the fact she lost the game (or round) against Nanoha, seems valid.
I mean, in the last chapter both the returnage of chocolate as well as girlfriend-nanoha are in focus before she thinks about being "rejected" (of all word-choices) twice. Like, she really tried to relationship... It wasn't entirely out of question anymore.
((She still thought of Chidori as someone to tease (first), have fun and show affection to (second and third...), so... her definition of "not just as friends" relationship is still rather twisted. Maybe she never intented a loud and proud 2-girls-in-love relationship... but then, I wonder why she even threw the "ex-girlfriend" out there...))

last edited at Sep 27, 2019 4:53PM

I didn't say her feelings weren't true.

Sorry for misreading then. I took the "She wasn't serious" as a statement. @_@

We can agree tho, that Igarashi's action spoke against her intent. Or at least, one should assume that if one likes/loves someone they would refrain from actively hurting them.... well, when they truly love someone, at least. In the most basic sense as "the unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another".

Yet, after the latest chapter and the insight gained from it, I'd say at least Igarashi, in her own mind, thought her love / affection was true.
She's wrong, by moral standards, of course. Her "love" and actions spoke more in the lines of obsession / possession. But, she was serious enough to still send those chocolates after being freaked out for "straying from the norm".

And from how I see it in this story, she knew what she was doing.

I am not so sure she knew what she was doing. As of now, I believe that she lacks that significant part of empathy; to even realize that Chidori's "heartfelt feelings" could get hurt by her 'teasing, having fun' and straight out crushing Chidori's feelings when confronted about her "nice guy who tells me he loves me" boyfriend.
Not knowing doesn't make it any better, of cos.
Being confused by one's own feelings and cultural/social indoctrination doesn't excuse hurting others over and over again. Especially with no remorse for the pain she caused but only crying when she feels the pain herself. And as said above, especially-especially hurting ones whom one supposedly has deep affections for.
The fact she didn't even consider that Chidori may be so hurt or fed up or strong enough to move on after being treated like this (and reject her for the 2nd/3rd time).... is not excusable. That is, unless next time she shows up she brings along a doctor's note attesting her to be a psychopath.
If not, then yeah, self-centered biatch may have not been aware but she's still a self-centered biatch.
And that last chapter did not make it any better. Tear or no tear. Hmpf.

She wasn't serious. Having feelings for someone and thinking that she could act on it, but when the reality comes she goes "lol I was just messing with you" is different.

Um, actually... that happens a lot even for people who are serious; to chicken out when things get real, and covering up in false bravado. Doesn't mean their feelings weren't true, but their anxieties were truer.

"...[Chidori's] heartfelt feelings..."
"....just wanted to tease her, to have some fun....."
"...to think she'd hate me that much..."

HEY, IGGY!!! SELF-REFLECTION IS NOT YOUR STRONGEST SUIT!!!
*curses under her breath*

Yeah, I know, I was advocating for Igarashi's POV or some sort of explanation from her side... I guess, "be careful what you wish for"? Or, is it "yay, we got official confirmation she's a self-centered closet-gay"? Or was this still too short and superficial to make proper judgement? ((That tear, tho... it has feelings...))

Do.NOT.fuck.with.Nanoha’s.Chidori.

And vice versa.

....Now I kinda hope Igarashi will return someday so Nanoha can resume from where Igarashi took the wind out of her sails and NanohaSmash™ her....

Ah, being biased towards kyoot widdle Chidori, and with the last happy kiss-chapter, this chapter came too soon for me to be more open-minded for Igarashi's case...

*found on Igarashi's i-pod*

last edited at Sep 27, 2019 2:58PM

Man, I wish the whole love triangle thing didn't exist
I wanted supportive friends with no hidden feelings existing

...I also came in to compare this to YagaKimi. And this ^ post kinda added to that.
Not complaining. It's still a slightly different take.
And I like this one.
Yori is quite an interesting and surprisinlgy positive character.

Well, she did do things to Koguma when the latter expected something lewd but then Hino did sometheing relatively casual... which still gots misread (e.g. having her finish her candy - which turns out to be another piece; telling Koguma to take off her bra - so she can measure her si--... okay that one still was kinda kinky but y'all get the idea) until it's resolved.

We don't know for sure if when Koguma arrived at the scene here, if she interupted something (another of Hino's misleadingly phrasings) or the dirty deed was already done.

But... yeah, my bet is on the twist. Which is basically the theme of the manga.
But the twist on the twist here is that it has Koguma reflect on their relationship how she rather has it being an exclusive one.

As for Hino, her initial response was clearly an unhappy one. Even she thinks, the things she does are creepy - unless she's doing them to Koguma. And her first response to Koguma was a rational argument, to protect Koguma, not a kink-driven response like "but I always do these things to you, too".

Gotta love how their power-dynamic quickly shifts on p11.

When someone hurts you, it's okay to cut them off and move on, whether the person you're cutting off is good or not.

I wanted to fully agree with that, but then (despite personal experiences that would give further credit to that statement) remembered that one shouldn't over-generalize things... (*sigh* life, people and relations can be quite so complex...)

I really agree with the notion that the author (who is keen on so many visual details) has more thoughts to Igarashi than the overall plot centered around the MCs lets on, on first sight. I am almost positive that she's meant to be a complex character with many flaws and... "personal justifications".

But I would also think, that her coming back after over a year and trying her schemes on Chidori again in that manner implies, that she's not been ready for any redemption or rehabilitation, yet. Even her backing off could be read as some sort of "retreat and review" before someday returning for another attack...
What we've seen on page (generally from Chidori's POV and as supporters of Chidori) is someone acting harmful, hurtful, unpredictable yet somewhat cunning, dishonest and reckless.
And for the sake of sweet Chidori, we are glad her whatever-she-really-wanted-ploys didn't work out and even seemingly backfired.

The problem is, despite these panels that imply "something else", we have no idea what that "something else" may be, and can only speculate. There is no textual information to be basis for proper analysis.

We don't know her intentions at all. From the start we can only speculate. And even her return is seeded with ambiguity about her intent - and as said above, so may as well be her retreat. We don't know if she's a "hurt soul", if she's even "worth saving" or a "lost cause", unless the author decides to show us more...

It took us 47 chapters to get to this point... so, if and when the author decides to show us more about Igarashi and how that's going to happen, is all up in the air.

(As an aside: I find it interesting how much discussion and interpretation Igarashi's character caused. I wonder if we had only half as much to say and analyse about our protagonists' characters...)

last edited at Sep 16, 2019 11:48AM

As I see it... Yeah, "Iggy" is bad.
Buuut... I also think there's sufficient cause by the author to have her have the ambiguity that lead to so many in-depth posts here. The unclear reasons stand out and could just be lazy writing to just have a "big bad" / conflict for the MC to overcome. But I'd argue there are several panels that stand out as well, and indicate the author had some thoughts about her POV of the events.

However, that's as far I go (pointing those panels out and throwing more question marks around). I'm not gonna jump to her defense. No matter her (or the author's) reasons, her actions suck. Could be worse, sure, but as for this story it's by far the worst here.
An in-canon explanation of some sort would still be welcome, tho. And I wouldn't think that neither her returning someday nor learning some about her motivations would harm the story - that is, if it's implemented well enough, and the story keeps moving forward.
The slice of life'ish style from the earlier chapters was fun and is bound to occur again, but I do like me some progress and evolution of the characters (and their relationship)...

That said: YAY, FINALLY A KISS!! ...if Nanoha wasn't as surprised by it, it prolly would have been a bit more steamy, but we need something to look forward to, I guess XD

...risking tmi myself... what's so incomprehensible about having sex with the parents next room / in the house? I mean, one can (try to be) be quiet... especially on the first time there may even be involuntary giggles ensuing which would be perfect to keep up the pretext of a girls sleepover... To some the additional level of secrecy may even add to the excitement.
..I don't even mean it like a planned circumstance, but either that it can happen anyway or just due to the fact that more privacy can be hard to attain for teens (be it for not being able to finance a hotel / get permission for such / a hotel being further inconvinience and source for embarrassment or no opportunities of parents and potential siblings staying overnight somewhere else), that it may be unavoidable.

In case of Yuu, I wouldn't even think she thought that far, though. Of Touko's parents, I mean. *shrugs*

On the other topic...
Continuing as slice of life could be one option, but even without abstract or overused drama being thrown into the mix ("Random ex showing up. Dundunduuun.") normal life can be just as exciting / interesting for a full and continuous narrative.
In case of YagaKimi, there are several things to explore. First of all, their coming out. A process that keeps coming up in various ways the entire life (friends, family, co-workers, neighbours, random associates...) even when being private about it. Or how differing educational and career paths can keep a couple apart, even if they start living together. Or how to deal with the partner's success or lack thereof. Even working in the same genre, doing differing jobs, how the couple would arrange? Would they eventually want to have kids, how to deal with that? They could try to be matchmakers for others (Sayaka?), with all the hits and fails, agreements and disagreements that come along with that.

Yeah, Kobayashi raised some of these topics, but more in a comedic and rushed (and fantasy) way. I could certainly see a crafted Mangaka persuing those beats in a more realistic setting with an already esatablished couple and fairing well with it, keeping momentum and creating a captivating story. (Here's to hoping, Kase-san will someday reach that stage...)

Yeah, because a relationship really doesn't have any development worth mentioning beyond having sex for the first time... /s

That's actually a sort of issue I have with a lot of these teenage romance stories. They tend to end with the couple finally accepting their feelings for another and having their first time together (as a couple, in case of some shennenigans they had "casual" sex or sex under different pretext before).
In case of YagaKimi there's sooo much coming after that. They've been school girls who barely met / dated outside school activities. I mean, hell, Yuu just met Touko's parents for the first time, was at her home for the first time. In the penultimate chapter?

That's what I meant when I said, that Nakatani could explore something entirely new even with this story, still.
Again, I won't blame her for not continuing that road, but I agree that it's sad that only few authors stay with their characters beyond the "happy ending-intercourse", not to mention a lot longer than that. Can't blame them for that neither, because usually building up to that is if well done already an exciting and long road. And creative minds tend to seek new projects, eventually...