I don't want to be one of those people who overthink those silly/comedy plots, but how is sleeping together a nono while this is perfectly fine?

Well, regardless, I too bet this is just a bait. Still, a lot of baits nowadays go in a less obvious direction so I'm curious how that'll solve itself.

I think traditional Japanese culture views bathing, particularly same-sex bathing as more of a social or bonding thing rather than 100% sexual. I mean, they definitely know the implications (see: every manga scene where this happens), but I think that's part of the intended charm. Manga certainly has childhood friends having bathed together when they're young quite a bit. Which, at least for where I'm from, would still be pretty unthinkable except for siblings.

In this case, it's like a loophole. "Oh, we can't see each other naked because I'm underage and it's wrong to do that with prurient intent, but if we're just bathing together (in a wholesome and socially accepted way for girls and women to bond together)...and, I mean, you can't bathe with clothes on, now..."

Obviously, the extent to which you or I (or a court of law) see a substantive difference, well...

last edited at Aug 14, 2023 3:06PM

I like the setting of this, and the art is good, but the story continues to be one of the most frustrating things I read on this site, and it's entirely because of Shion. She really is the worst, but hey, at least she realizes it?

I think part of it is the bimonthly release. It's a long gap between chapters, so when each individual chapter brings up a conflict (in this case, Shion sabotaging Michiru out of jealousy), we've got a long wait to see any follow-up.

I'm still figuring that odds are good that Hibai and Gina are going to end up going rogue along with Rose and Benika. Probably as a result of the dual execution orders that are going to get triggered at some point here.

This was like a weird pod person ending. The characters feel like people who are almost, but not quite, perfect copies of the people we knew before.

I really love that Father Shirafune is just totally on board the Benika/Rose train now. Perhaps as a result of these extreme circumstances, but I do love the speech he gives. "Haha, you fools; my daughter's girlfriend is going to kick your asses."

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?

I suppose it's open to SOME interpretation, but I got it from this line:
"Our influence exists only because we sow accidents among the refugees, namely those who threaten the peace or otherwise prove detrimental to the administration"
"Even if it means condemning them to oppression and exploitation?"
"They will not remain outsiders forever"

That kind of sounds to me like what I was talking about.

Right, yeah, that's what I thought, but reading it again is starker. The organization is definitely a force for the status quo, and huge assholes, either way. They clearly don't have a problem with murder and seem to believe in some long-term assimilation or something. I mostly got the positive part from how the Bishop states that they both started with the hope of helping the refugees, but disagreed over methods. So I assumed that was still the goal.

b) I love the fact that most of the comments here have basically decided that Gina’s insult for the government agency is now its official moniker.

I honestly forgot that's where it came from. Babylon vs. Our Lady of Ammunition.

I'm also interested to see whether the organization's reconcile. I didn't expect so, but both sides have been getting development to be more gray than they first appeared. (Babylon is working to protect the refugees by killing those who would profit off their plight, while the Church is fomenting armed attacks and riots)

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much. Which makes sense if you believe the idea that the underclass ever naturally gets anywhere without struggle from below, or that unrest by disliked minority groups is just counterproductive to their situation because it invites backlash. I by and large don't (e.g. American gay rights began moving forward with the Stonewall riots), so that leaves Babylon an outfit that kills to maintain the unjust status quo while telling themselves they're on the side of the angels.

And indeed by this point it may be precisely because Babylon eliminated all sources of not-so-violent resistance, say potential union leaders and so on, that the church is driven to supporting all out violent insurrection as the only remaining option.

That's possible, however my memory is that they were targeting lowlifes and organized crime people. Ones who would give the refugees a bad name, or exploit them.

Obviously, you can still debate whether their approach is positive or likely to succeed at all (I doubt it), but I'm pretty sure they weren't supposed to be targeting "good" people.

Feels rather like Benika will start championing the refugee cause too ...

Yeah, definitely. Hibai thinks she's scaring Benika off, but I guarantee she'll come out of this far more sympathetic to the refugees' situation and Rose's struggles in particular.

I think the real question here is, will Hibai and Gina end up wanting to help Rose and Benika? They seem set up to be a personal bridge between the two organizations and our protagonists.

I'm also interested to see whether the organization's reconcile. I didn't expect so, but both sides have been getting development to be more gray than they first appeared. (Babylon is working to protect the refugees by killing those who would profit off their plight, while the Church is fomenting armed attacks and riots)

I find the contrast here really interesting. The violent, illegal hitmen organization is advocating for peaceful progress and restraint, while the church is the ones promoting a more direct and aggressive approach.

So the next "arc" is going to be Hibai and Gina trying to break up Rose and Benika. They can't just out Rose, because that could cause her to seek revenge. So we're going to get more antics! Which I quite enjoy. I think the great strength of this work is the way it has this ultra-serious backdrop and plot, yet the mood is often light.

Mhmmm ... the fact that Chinatsu ended up resigning along with "all the old guard" and then refusing any further contact kiiiiiinda makes me vaguely suspicious that the "rumors" might not have been entirely unfounded, but obviously that's neither here nor there.

A more charitable interpretation is that Chinatsu was indeed a genuinely talented, important asset to the company, and when she resigned suddenly the leadership investigated. And when they discovered that it was caused by a baseless rumor from jealous colleagues, they were "encouraged" to follow her out the door. But because this is Japanese office culture, nobody just flat out said "stop spreading stupid rumors you ding-dongs."

I feel like the characters in this series have realistic motivations and hang ups.

Citation needed

"I'm her boss and she still has her whole life ahead of her. I'm sure she'll find someone better than a woman 13 years her senior."

You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 5:01PM

Ok, so I was never annoyed by Hiroko before but did she seriously just tell Ayaka she shouldn't say that she likes women out of the blue? Omg, you like, just asked what she was doing at the bar! Geez.

"Why were you at that lesbian bar?"
"I'm a lesbian."
"Whoa, way to drop that bombshell from out of nowhere!"

Hiroko catches Ayaka looking at lesbian porn
"Ayaka, did you click on the wrong link? Let me help you find the back button..."

Hiroko sees Ayaka wearing lesbian colors at a Pride parade
"Wow! Did you pick those colors because they look like a pretty sunset?"

Hiroko and Ayaka have been dating for three years, Ayaka is currently knuckle-deep in Hiroko as they have sex
"T-this...oh! This is a v-very intense way to...practice fingering for piano-OH!"

I'm finding myself actually really enjoying this, and I don't typically like these sort of stories. I think it's the odd, yet strangely satisfying mix of gritty spy realpolitik and Archie Comics misunderstandings and dating comedy. The weird way the three lives Rose has (hitwoman, Benika's girlfriend and a nameless confessor) have crossed the paths of this family on all three counts and how it's all coming together to this meeting.

I'm really looking forward to how things explode here, as they seem they will.

The dilemma here reminds me a bit of the manhua "Straight Girl Trap." The basic premise of that one is similar, where a woman gets a crush on her boss and has to struggle to avoid falling into the eponymous straight girl trap- that is, the way that straight women can display intimacy with their friends in ways that, to them, are 100% platonic, but to a Sapphic person reads as romantic/potentially sexual. Hence, it's a trap you can fall into, thinking that they're into you when they're really not.

Add in cultures where being openly queer is still an incredibly dicey prospect, and I get why Hiroko would not only dismiss Ayaka's signals as being that platonic intimacy, but why she'd want them to be so. Hiroko is clearly attracted to Ayaka, but has multiple reasons (even setting aside spoilers) why she'd feel like Ayaka reciprocating would actually be a lot more trouble than it's worth. She keeps acting like Ayaka isn't sincere because, I think, there's a part of her that really wishes that were true.

As for the rest of what you said. Aromantic people exist.

Sure. But I don't think Kasumi is. Demiromantic, certainly. But her reactions here, plus the general thrust of the story so far, really don't strike me as building up to an aro ending. Maybe I'm wrong.

Is this the first time we've seen Kasumi blush like that when thinking about Sakurako? It's sweet to see how seriously she's thinking about their relationship, and how much it clearly means to her whether or not her feelings are ultimately romantic. (she flat out says she believes they'll spend the rest of their lives together) I think Koruri's point about how, either way, their relationship probably won't change much was reassuring; Kasumi doesn't like pressure, so her believing that it's OK no matter what she decides likely helps a lot.

For the record, I do think we're heading toward romance. Even if it's very low-key, Kasumi's reactions this chapter make me believe she's coming around to the idea of being in love with Sakurako. Especially her reaction to the teasing at the end- in the past, she'd have just brushed that sort of thing off, but here, she blushes and thinks, "romantic or not, I kinda like this." Only she can decide whether that's a romantic thought or not, but she's clearly more conscious of Sakurako's flirting in a way she wasn't before.

... well I obviously knew he will be nowhere near the focus, but I'm still kinda surprised that Aoi's husband got basically no screentime :P No face, no name, no lines on his own wedding, we don't even know if he's at least sorta nice or not. Sure bodes well

Let's be honest, does anyone give a fuck about the husband? Maybe giving him a face would have been a nice touch, but no one wants Generic Japanese Man #403 to have too big of a part in a yuri manga. He was everything he needed to be for the story.

I mean, he's really just a plot device, right? He's "the surrender" of a "normal" life if you can't be with the woman you love. Aoi is bi, but it's clear she prefers women. So I doubt she's marrying this guy because she actually loves him romantically; all her current(?) girlfriends at the wedding made that pretty clear. As someone said, she's like a dark future vision for Nanami if she can't deal with her situation with Kaede.

In that case, keeping the focus off of the husband is probably meant so we don't start to feel bad for him. If he genuinely loves Aoi and we see how she's basically settling for this marriage and still plans to date women on the side, that would speak much more badly of her character. Or at least rub our faces in it more.

last edited at Feb 23, 2023 4:09PM

People: "Fuck landlords!"
Manhua artists: "Hmmm...yes!"

I know everyone hates this plot, and I can't say I love it, but I do feel like it's pretty in-character for Tomoka to be a huge dumbass who bets her future on a race without thinking about the implications. Like, Tomoka genuinely loves Yui and is an overall good person, but she she's never been the most emotionally intelligent or perceptive. I totally buy that that she'd miss Fukami's obvious crush on her (one that Fukami herself doesn't realize, and thus is sublimating it into this weird and inappropriate jealousy) and not realize what's really got her roommate so possessive.

She's also very susceptible to peer-pressure and tends to think of everything in terms of an athletic competition, so I feel like of course she jumps on that - a simple race - as a way out of this uncomfortable social situation. And it's not until afterward that she realizes just how much she's disrupting the plans she and Yui were making. And Yui is too nice and too passive to call her out over it, so rather than pushing back she kind of just accepts it. (Yui's historically shown a reluctance to "interfere" in Tomoka's athletics, as well)

Anyway, I'm willing to see where this goes. This isn't the first time there's been some frustrating drama, but I feel like it almost always pulls it back, shows how the behavior was an issue and then has the two work through things to be in a better place. Like, funnily enough, the last time Fukami caused Yui grief when they were on the summer trip; Fukami was weirdly possessive, Yui was insecure...but, ultimately, it led to my favorite chapter of either run - Crickets and Kase-san - where Tomoka makes crystal clear that she sees her future as being with Yui ("I'll go where you go"), and Yui lets go of her insecurities all on her own. (instead of relying on Tomoka to reassure her, though bringing up Fukami's actions there might have saved some grief this time around...)

It's worth noting that some people have very flexible gender identities or don't see it as a core part of their identity. See: the concept of gender casual.

I feel like it could be argued that "not having a specific gender identity" is, in itself, a kind of gender identity (in the way that zero both is and is not a number), but that's also super in the weeds and not something I'm personally super familiar, with, so I don't want to put my foot in my mouth any more than I already have. :)

More on topic, I do like how this manga manages to both be super fluffy and cute, and deal with some important topics respectfully. Things like "I am sensitive to women's periods and how that makes them feel" shouldn't be so surprising from (at the time) man, but I like that it shows Takkun as being empathetic and flexible even before she deals with it herself.

last edited at Jan 18, 2023 3:11PM

First, just because something is fictional doesn't mean it doesn't relate to the real world or real world issues. As Cogito says, everyone has a gender identity. You have a gender identity. For most people, that identity matches up with the one they were assumed to be and raised as. So just because someone in a story transitions through fantastical means, and it doesn't explicitly call out issues of gender identity, doesn't mean it's not dealing with them. When Takkun is afraid that she'll have to break up with her girlfriend, because she's now a woman and believes her girlfriend won't like that, that is an issue of gender identity. It's a struggle that real, actual trans people face all the time, where they have a long-term partner and are stuck because they need or want to go further in their transition, but are worried that their partner will no longer be attracted to them. So, whether you like it or not, this manga is dealing with gender identity, just in a very low-key and fluffy and implicit way.

Second, and more to the point, the whole reason I spoke up is because I'm sick of seeing trans people make comments on a work only to invariably have someone show up to explain to them that not only are they wrong, but they apparently aren't even allowed to have opinions about something because "it's not really a trans work." And my point is that a manga that's literally about a person transitioning sex and gender, no matter how it's achieved, will always be a trans work. And trying to obscure that fact, and silence trans voices who are trying to have a conversation about how a work makes them feel related to their own experiences and understanding, is Not Good.

Going back to the original comment I responded to, I think understanding that there are different tropes, none "better" or "worse" than the other, and that there is commonly some overlap between tropes which can confuse people (specifically people coming from a different culture than the creator) into thinking one trope (like genderbending) is a badly written or demeaning form of a completely different trope such as transgender.

Being transgender isn't a trope.

I think that the issue people have is that "genderbender" stories are treated as wholly separate from trans identity. It's treated as a fantastical or fetishistic thing, rather than a very grounded reality that many people experience. It comes across as something meant for cishet men to enjoy "safely," without having to consider any messy issues like gender identity or discrimination. Like how "pure yuri" will avoid any actual lesbian/sapphic identity in order to keep it "clean."

That's not to say people can't enjoy genderbender (as many trans people will tell you, it's super common to be drawn to GB stories long before being aware of their own transness), but I feel like the themes are inescapably trans no matter whether you use the term or not. And attempting to say it's somehow some separate, totally unrelated thing is at best tone-deaf and at worse active erasure of trans identity and perspectives.