I wouldn't say it applies to everyone, but we're not talking about people with a developed sense of what consent means. We're talking about an average teenager that might come across this.

While it's good to examine the art we consume, I don't think "might this have a negative impact on a random teenager who reads it?" is a very helpful question to ask. It's not something we can ever possibly know unless you pay for a scientific study, and it doesn't really matter anyway. A single manga is not going to have an appreciable impact on societal views of women and sexual coercion. To put it another way, consequentialism isn't going to help you here; if you want to morally critique the manga you need to critique the manga in itself, not assert that it might have negative consequences on hypothetical teenagers.

last edited at Sep 29, 2022 2:27AM

The villains of the mafia arc have yet to receive their commeupance, so I'm positive we'll see them again.

Hmm, that's the thing, though. The entire first arc was about the orphan girls making it out of the slum life, which I think was the perfect comeuppance, and about Eve's character development. It was... very dramatically conclusive, too, what with Rose and all. As much as the unapologetically Anime golf was the reason I was so enthralled originally, I think it'd actually be narratively unsatisfying for Eve to return to that life now.

I doubt Eve will return to that life, more like that life will return to her lol. The orphan girls may have made it out but Catherine is still perfectly capable of using them to threaten Eve to golf for her again or something. Not to mention the ending of season 1 implies that Aoi's family has been involved in some fucked-up shit; the Amawashis being linked to the golf mafia is a natural way to bring both "worlds" together.

Ji Youyan is great, she's basically a classic "white lotus" fake good girl except she's the protagonist (and also genuinely smart).

The villains of the mafia arc have yet to receive their commeupance, so I'm positive we'll see them again.

@strayalive

Ehh... have you ever looked up MAL ratings for the "romance" tag? There's an overwhelming number of tearjerkers at the top; stuff like Clannad, Your Lie in April, I Want to Eat Your Pancreas, etc. And Makoto Shinkai has made a career out of scenes of longing (between two people who barely know each other, mind you) against the backdrop of an immaculately rendered golden hour sky.

@protectmomo

I don't find any kind of categorisation where "tragedy" and "romance" are exclusive categories to be useful in any way at all. I'd suggest that tragedy is on a dichotomy only with comedy; and that no matter where a story falls on the sliding scale of tragedy/comedy it can be romantic or it can be something else in addition.

As I keep saying, it really depends on how you define "romance." Romance as a genre has a specific set of tropes/expectations/"rules," including a happily ever after (among other things). These rules are not necessarily ironclad, but they are the overwhelming standard. But obviously any type of narrative can have a romance as a part of it -- call this romance as a "tag," like on MAL.

The reason I bring this up is that "yuri" is a romance subgenre. When people set out to write a yuri manga (or novel or whatever), they largely have romance genre tropes to fall back on. And as @Licentious Lantern says, romance tropes exist for a reason; the "will they/won't they" dynamic provides an inherent tension and a clear goal that automatically makes audiences invest in it. (Manga like Nisekoi and Rent-A-Girlfriend can persist literally only on that for hundreds of chapters...)

Also, this doesn't affect the larger point, but Clannad absolutely has a "happily ever after" ending.

There's a third path, where you both have an established couple, have an "ideal" relationship, and still have tension/conflict: by not making the story entirely about romance. That's what I want to see, and as of yet don't think I've ever seen it in a single anime.

I also would absolutely love to see more of this. The problem is that almost every anime -- frankly almost every piece of media -- with a gay main character is a "gay romance" first and foremost. I can think of almost no works of narrative art with an LGBT protagonist that aren't fundamentally about their love life. There are several reasons for this I'm sure, but the biggest is probably that (due to homophobia) studios and investors are afraid they'll lose a large part of their audience if they have a gay main character in an otherwise "mainstream" work. "Yuri" and "yaoi" are specific genres with their own built-in audience, even if it's a smaller audience than for het romances (especially for yuri). But if you're aiming at a more broad, mainstream audience, the funders are going to be terrified of scaring off the homophobes. Disney cancelling The Owl House is a case in point here.

That being said, there are actually a few recent anime with an explicitly lesbian main couple that aren't romances first and foremost. I can't vouch for their quality, but this is true for both Otherworld Picnic and Magical Girls Spec-Ops Asuka. MagiRevo is also getting an anime adaptation soon. I also have high hopes for Birdie Wing season 2. Times are changing, albeit slowly.

last edited at Sep 28, 2022 4:51PM

A bigger AUGH than Charlie ever Brown'd!

I don't always read these analysis posts but this is an amazing turn of phrase

I would never dream of skipping a Temp post, best stuff on the forums by far

Apologies if I have ruffled some wrong feathers with my comment. The "what if" scenario I proposed was not meant to artificially guilt-trip anyone for liking this manga. The purpose of my "reality check" was solely to counteract my often-unconscious bias that gives a pass to potentially unhealthy relationships (like unequal power dynamics) just because they are between two women. As a yuri fan, I often find myself distracted by the lilies and subsequently disregarding developments that, just as @Lilliwyt said, can be bad "even if" they are between women. It is for this reason that when something makes me uncomfortable about a yuri relationship, I run it through the "het filter" to find the source of discomfort.

I understand what you're saying, but there's nothing inherently wrong with exploring unhealthy relationships in a fictional context -- they can sometimes make it more interesting, even. If you're able to enjoy a fictional unhealthy relationship when it's yuri but not when it's het, that's nothing necessarily to be ashamed about; it's just a matter of taste. You're not hurting anyone by reading a manga, after all. That said, you shouldn't force yourself to read a manga that makes you uncomfortable just because it's yuri either.

Shit, that really really sucks.

Romeo and Juliet might voice an objection here. It's certainly a common trope in the entire anime/manga/LN sphere, but as an overarching genre of storytelling I think this expectation would not be grounded in reality.

I mean that a happy ending is literally listed as a requirement by the Romance Writers of America (I'm aware we're talking about Japanese media, but it's more or less the same there):

Two basic elements comprise every romance novel: a central love story and an emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending.

Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy, not a romance. That's why I said it depends on how you define the word.

Yeah, I feel like this is the most trivial caveat ever... have you ever been in a relationship? Relationships are never "happily ever after with zero tension for the rest of your life". If anything, it's the opposite. Merely depicting a relationship provides boundless opportunities for conflict and drama.

Of course, I never said it was impossible, just that it's more difficult to come up with conflict outside the standard romance template. In particular, it's very difficult to write conflict between two characters who are basically good or at least who the audience are expected to sympathize with; this is why most fictional antagonists are one-dimensionally evil, and why most obstacles in romance are external (misunderstandings, evil parents, love triangle, whatever).

I would also venture to guess that a large subset of the romance audience wants to read about an "ideal" relationship they can self-insert into, and bluntly depicting the difficulties that arise from (most/all) real-world relationships ruins that wish fulfillment aspect.

To be clear, I do agree with you that I'd like to see more work that seriously tackles realistic disagreements and conflicts that arise between two (or more!) people in an established relationship. I'm just theorizing as to why those works aren't particularly common.

Hmm, I don't agree, though? I think it's done a perfectly fine job of continuing the story, with stuff like tension about how much time they spend together, their plans for the future, coming out to their friends. Mind you, it's a fluffy, low-drama story where all of the issues are generally resolved quickly and happily, but it was also like that before they started dating, so I don't think that's really related to the topic at hand.

I confess I didn't love the manga before they got together either (not because it's fluffy and low-drama, the characters just aren't particularly compelling to me), so that's a fair point.

You would think it would occur to the MC that while her life might be crappy, their worlds can't be TOO different if this lady is planning suicide.

If anything, their outlooks seem oddly similar . . . or am I the only one who found the MC's musings about escaping this terrible life vaguely suicidal?

When the MC talks about "the world of reality," I don't think she's really talking about being happy. Rereading page 7, she seems more to be contrasting people who are "beautiful and confident" with her as "worthless and alone."

Well, sure, but . . . beautiful, confident, and actively planning her death. That last bit should kind of put the envy in perspective, is what I'm saying.

It should, but it doesn't, which reveals a lot about the MC's personality.

last edited at Sep 27, 2022 7:23PM

It doesn't have to be that way, though. Just because it's the norm doesn't mean it's not worth complaining about. Lonely Girl is by far one of my biggest favourites in recent years, precisely because it has none of that. That's not to say it doesn't use many of the tropes we've all become familiar with, but the tropes are usually used to push things forward rather than back. They were already making out and cuddling from the start and we got several entire volumes after they officially started dating. I want more of that in my life. Like, 100000x more of that. You can tell romance stories about people who are a couple. It's possible! It really is!

It depends on what you mean by romance. "Romance" is a genre with fairly strict expectations, one of which is the ending must be the two leads getting together and "living happily ever after." The driving tension and source of conflict in the narrative is the two leads wanting to be in a relationship but being unable to for whatever reason (this is where the classic misunderstanding usually comes in). This applies to yuri, a subgenre of romance, just as much as it applies to het (and BL) romances.

It is of course possible to write a story about a couple who's already together, but it requires you to find some source of tension and conflict other than the "will they/won't they," and you don't have the romance genre formula to fall back on. It's just a lot more difficult to do that. You can even see this difficulty in Lonely Girl, which I do enjoy, but which kind of stalled out and turned into full slice-of-life once they started officially dating. (Anemone is in Heat is currently solving this problem by switching to a side couple lol.)

There are some excellent manga currently exploring this space, though. If you haven't already -- and don't mind reading about severely flawed protagonists -- I highly recommend checking out Brides of Iberis.

This was certainly an arresting first chapter. The plot hook is unique and interesting, and both protagonists are pretty compelling with fairly unusual personalities and situations. Thanks a lot for the translation!

You would think it would occur to the MC that while her life might be crappy, their worlds can't be TOO different if this lady is planning suicide.

If anything, their outlooks seem oddly similar . . . or am I the only one who found the MC's musings about escaping this terrible life vaguely suicidal?

When the MC talks about "the world of reality," I don't think she's really talking about being happy. Rereading page 7, she seems more to be contrasting people who are "beautiful and confident" with her as "worthless and alone." I think it's more to do with her jealousy of people who, unlike her, are talented and successful at achieving their dreams? She points out that Sayaka must have some strong desire (such as revenge) to want to both kill herself and have a farewell letter be read aloud at her funeral, while the MC -- despite her escapist musings -- is still stuck in the same rut she's been in for seven years.

I had been thinking all chapter that Himari was acting awfully like a cat; I never expected her to literally be a cat lmao. This is some top-tier writing.

last edited at Sep 27, 2022 5:26PM

That's one hell of an over-analysis, overloaded with words, and even including a stereotypical Kafka name drop. Sometimes a cute love story is just a cute love story. I think trying to tie it into greater themes of self-actualization in a grander sense is absurd.

You're free to dislike long and involved literary analyses, but there's no need to shit on others who do engage in them.

The title is far more entertaining than the content itself, unfortunately. That felt like a slog to read.

That's 4koma for you, sadly. Though the orc is great, was not expecting that twist

last edited at Sep 26, 2022 9:24PM

as for Nakano it really is pretty straightforward, she is shameless, a bad influence, and helpfull. The vibes is get from Dynasty comments these days is that a lot of people crave "Healthy Environments" for their sexy stuff, But a lot of these writers dont care about having an inherintly healthy environment as long as the characters dont experiance anything unpleasant.

While I personally am quite enjoying this series and think that Nakano being basically a villain protagonist (or deuteragonist) adds a certain extra spice that makes it kind of unique, that is 100% a matter of taste. I don't think anyone should be criticized for not wanting to read hentai where the protagonist is repeatedly manipulated into having sex (and of course no one should be criticized for liking this stuff in a strictly fictional context either).

That's not how I interpret it. Kei-chan liked her back, but left to Tokyo for college. Then they reunite years later.

It wasn't axed, Sol Falling already debunked that on page 4 of this thread:

Here's the author's blog post about vol 3 (the last)
https://kanalinapictures.wordpress.com/2021/07/17/3巻カバーデザイン/

Here she states that her contract was originally for 2 volumes and that she got it extended to 3 by persistent badgering of the editorial department. Continuing further might've been possible with more sales/popularity, but the story was composed from the start to wrap up in 3 volumes.

Obviously it's totally legitimate to dislike the manga for other reasons.

It's still highly messed up, don't get me wrong, but Miyako ultimately still has a choice in whether she engages with these people. Nakano is obviously highly coercive and in any realistic setting everything she's done amounts to some type of abuse, but in hentai logic I can squeeze my eyes and ignore it.

Sharing her nudes has no logic in which it would be ok. Miyako has no choice involved in that at all. I think that's why it strikes me as different.

That's a good point, that Miyako did ultimately choose to fuck her clients while she never consented to have her nudes shared (and indeed clearly dislikes it). In that sense Nakano's behavior is escalating. Though there is hentai logic that could "justify" it, and I imagine Nakano will deploy it in a future chapter ("You shouldn't be ashamed of your body"; "I just want people to know how beautiful you are"...maybe it's not a good thing I can come up with those on the spot lol).

Somehow Nakano having shared naked pictures of her makes this so much worse. It was an active turn off for me from the chapter.

Nakano has been pressuring Miyako into sex since the very first chapter. She started pimping her out, without permission, in chapter 3. She's been consistently characterized as a bad person and Doumyou is literally 100% in the right for trying to stop her.

(This isn't a criticism of the manga, I'm pretty sure this was the intended audience reaction.)

I really hate the shoujo shit like this and bakarina where they portray this shit as hot.

I don't see how it was portrayed as hot here. Yoh clearly hated it.

Well, I for one am still quite enjoying this manga; I think it's interesting how Misaki is ensconced in a love triangle with two toxic, sexually assaulting love interests. I certainly understand why people don't like it but this sort of melodrama is entertaining too sometimes.

Amazing chapter, Uda is just too precious for this series omg, I'm excited for her upcoming arc! Btw, the hair down really suits her, I hope we can get more of it

Her crush complimented it, she's never touching a hair tie ever again lol

It's a decent one-shot, but there are a lot of things that could have been elaborated on if this were a series, such as Takamine's injury.

It's strongly implied that Takamine injured herself to get an excuse to quit the club.

So overall I think that Yurika would rather suffer and like Minamo as long as they're at least friends trope.

I think it's that, plus Yurika is still pretty traumatized from her disastrous relationship with Reika. Keep in mind it's only been like a few months since they broke up (and she met Minamo immediately afterward).

last edited at Sep 24, 2022 2:29AM