A long time favorite of mine that I thought lost. This is one of the fanworks that really crystallizes the essence of ReiMari to me. I have nothing but adoration for the art and the dialogue. The faces show such deep affection that it makes one blush alongside them. Their friendly banter that fuels their slow realization of their feelings for each other that all but them had already realized is divine.

If it were not so tacky to rate stories with arbitrary numbers I would definitely give it a full score.

Is it Looks Like Hakurei Reimu and Kirisame Marisa Are Dating ?

Yes, this is the one where they kiss that I was thinking about! It may not be the one I was originally looking for, but this one was my other favorite. Thank you very much.

Hmm..."sitting on the porch having a conversation" does describe a lot of Marisa x Reimu doujins. Does it involve kissing or physical affection? It doesn't sound like it does, but I'm checking first since that would narrow it down a lot.

I am painfully aware....
The entire thing really just took place on the porch and they only talked as far as I remember. The important part was the confession of love. Although there are two doujins of this type coming to mind and in the other one they at least had a kiss. Well, it became apparent why I have trouble finding it, eh? Sorry again.

@Blastaar
I have trouble expressing my thoughts sometimes, so this may turn into more of a stream of consciousness, don't feel obligated to read it. I really wish these forums had collapsible spoilers to reduce the space at least...

First of all I want to say that I have never once doubted that Sakurako and Kasumi love each other romantically. This is an undeniable fact in my mind. They are a couple, for whatever labels they may use, their actions speak louder than words. Due to this perspective I do not ever require any more proof . I will even go so far as to say that I have no desire to see them have sex, although I would love for the sexual component to be acknowledged eventually. That is essential to me, not as proof of their love, but as a necessary evolution of their dynamic. What I mean by that is even more longwinded so I'll save that for another time, but safe to say I am absolutely certain that they actually never had sex yet and that they can't until they reach that evolution I mentioned.

All that is to say, I may not have been quite clear about why that line from Sakurako back then hurt me so much. It is not that I blame the characters for having a different perspective (however influenced by their own misconceptions or quirks) on what a relationship is. It's that I felt Yukiko's theming to be... suffocating.
There are several couples in this manga and for a long time I simply thought they were to provide a contrast for Sakurako and Kasumi's more unique relationship.... but as time goes on I suspect there is more to it.

You see, every lesbian relationship in this manga struggles with labels. Not just that of the main pair. Of course the most obvious one would be Moka and Koruri, because Moka quite directly said she also prefers not to use words like "boyfriend or girlfriend". Even though it was quite heavily implied that she frequented a lesbian bar for years, that she seeks out people, there is also the aspect that she has a strong aversion to be bound and tied down. Her relationships according to the barkeeper are usually of a fleeting and faraway nature (not that her sleeping around was a secret) and Koruri's existence and their solid relationship is a rare exception. Moka doesn't have a home that she actually treats as a home, until she met Koruri and made her that place. The reason she was averse to labels was clearly that she is not fond of the obligations and expectations it brings with it. It binds her and requires a tribute so to speak.
What is noteworthy is that despite this aspect of her, she has no issue still addressing Koruri as her girlfriend, call themselves a couple and express her love. She is free spirited, but not unaware of the reality around her. She even said that there are things you can only do as a couple, when Koruri wasn't sure about that. In the end Koruri even kinda proved Moka right, because the reason she chose to date her was to bind her in a way that she couldn't if they just stayed friends.

Next is a way more subtle pair that I first overlooked in this area. Seri and Shouko. What finally tipped me off was the Valentine's chapter. When Sakurako asked why Seri did not ask her friends at college for help, her explanation was that everyone there thinks she has a boyfriend and that she "cant explain it well" which is why she prefers to avoid telling them. Seri struggles with labels just as much as the rest, only does her struggle come from her upbringing and sheltered nature. Shouko is a true "commoner" in so far that she has adapted to everything in life, but cannot really venture past that easily. She loves Seri, she values their relationship, but she can't quite find the focus that a romantic relationship seems to require in her mind, which is why she constantly is afraid of failing Seri. If Seri was not so assertive and understanding, she would never have been able to even admit that their relationship was "special".
With this we have Seri who cannot quite get a grasp on what their relationship is in relation to the 'common people' and Shouko who always second-guesses it.

Sakurako and Kasumi's issue with labels is very different from the others, because they seem entirely content with their isolated world and never adapt to the outside in the slightest. They have no need for labels, because they are not actually identifying themselves to anyone. They intimately understand each other's feelings and thus do not care enough to work through this. Their happiness is secure, so why change anything? Any outsider will just apply whatever labels they see fit to them and things continue to be smooth.
This is the part that hurt me, because I felt that Yukiko was so obssessed with this theme that she did it to the detriment of the characters. If you do not acknowledge the outside world, you cannot grow. I found it disheartening when I finally understood the overarching theme. Yukiko wants to show relationships that defy labels or struggle with them and I could not tell whether this was her preference being super-imposed on the story or if she was going somewhere with this beyond trying to be unique. The ambiguity was its own pain at points, but at least there was never clear DENIAL. When Sakurako and Kasumi mused over what their relationship was in the earlier chapters they came to the conclusion that it was many things at once, which could include being a couple. But now Sakurako straight up denied that they are dating. The need to not compromise to outward labels outgrew their sense of expression. Sakurako limited their relationship, downsized it, sealed it in that isolated space of their home. And then Moka simply agreed with Sakurako and accepted it, which to me seemed even more convenient from Yukiko, considering Moka's characterization as someone who understands the necessity of labels.

Anyway, enough about why I was foolishly hurt by something so silly, when it's more important why I am past it. I think I have come to see that this really does go somewhere. This theme is not just Yukiko's preference and I think that Sakurako's and Kasumi's relationship has moved to a point where it became clear that Sakurako's words there were deflection and intentionally so. She has created a reductionist view of their relationship, as she says "as long as we share the same home, that's enough" for now . She has already attained happiness and that's all there is to it. She is certain of Kasumi's love, she knows she loves Kasumi, so that's all there is to it. That's all there is ot it... But it's not. We know it's not, maybe more than Sakurako can.
It's because Sakurako only speaks for herself, but makes it sound like she speaks for both of them. She doesn't have Kasumi's input. She constantly, at every point, concedes everything to Kasumi, but it has gotten to a point where she pre-emptively takes Kasumi's side without even understanding how Kasumi has changed. The main reason, in my opinion, why Sakurako has never tried to say they are dating is simply because she thinks Kasumi doesn't want it that way. That's all there is to it. The same reason why they never had sex and the same reason why she overcompensates with her worship of Kasumi, an outlet of her emotions so strong that it makes her happy enough to ignore all the concessions she makes. She will never take a single step unless Kasumi does so first. Sakurako is stuck. Kasumi evolves. This has been happening the entire time and I just didn't connect it. A story so focused on boundaries and compromises is truly rare and I dearly hope Yukiko will stick the landing of that theme.
Regardless, we know they are happy, so it cannot ever be bad... just a tad disappointing.

I am quite aware of the sheer impossibility of my request, but I am truly at my wits end. This short one-shot I seek is a Reimu x Marisa Touhou doujin. I have already perused almost every single piece in the sizable collection Dynasty has, but I can still not find it. I know that I read it on this site many years ago.

To summarize the plot: Reimu and Marisa simply have a conversation on the porch in front of Hakurei Shrine under the moonlight. The art was very detailed and expressive and it ends with them confessing in a way.

Reimu's deeply affectionate face haunts me to this day, so I must find it again.
If it had been deleted, I am more than happy to look for it elsewhere, but I would have an easier time if I knew the title.

I am surprised to find this updated. I remember reading it quite regularly years ago, but I found myself so distracted with life... Unfortunately my last memory of it was also of a slightly disappointed nature so that may have contributed to my break from Yukiko's beautiful art and comfortable writing. It must have been the chapter where Sakurako denied that her and Kasumi are dating. Albeit a silly matter of labels, it quite hurt me, as the text and imagery of the manga so clearly do their best to prove the contrary.

I'm glad to say I have overcome this emotional down and can fully enjoy their bond again. Both Sakurako and Kasumi have always been struggling with labels, yet never with their relationship itself and it reflects in how they have in fact grown closer without acknowleding it directly. The chapter where Sakurako spoke of how they understand each other's inner workings better than any outsider could which leads to different perceptions was more or less a direct address to the reader in my humble opinion. Indeed, the outward level of affection we see is not always fully representative of the inner love they share. This goes in both directions of course, from Kasumi being more affectionate than her seemingly indifferent nature would suggest, to Sakurako clearly using her overtly intense and nearly farcical level of adoration to play over her more tender and serious love for Kasumi.

I still remember the Hawaii trip being brought up in the context of a honeymoon and although we skipped the marriage, it is finally here. The suggestion of an eventual return still allows for the honeymoon promise to be fulfilled as well. Lovely.

As this will be the last event before their life as working adults, the next stage of their shared happiness, I found it quite fitting that they reaffirmed their connection once more. Sakurako has been wildly clinging to memories and shared items that connect them lately, as if she was trying to anchor herself to Kasumi, but in this chapter she completely forgot about any matters other than enjoying the view with Kasumi. Her desire to preserve the past was overwritten by the happiness of their present. Kasumi made certain to pull (or rather push) Sakurako back to reality and show her that their connection is real, that she is there for her and that she is not merely a dream that Sakurako is unworthy of watching, that will eventually only become a memory. Kasumi has the desire to be with Sakurako, the only true desire she ever held and she has to show it to her.

Their eternal status quo makes it impossible to tell what is past or present sometimes, even for them. With the subtle changes they have gone through, though, I have no doubt that they will continue to grow more complete and more romantic. Perhaps they may never find the courage or need to label what they have, but come the next stage of their life, they will strengthen their bond - their love - yet again.

last edited at Oct 13, 2021 12:05PM

Actually as you can see in chapter 2 p.15 and p.16, there was already a scar on Kanoko's shoulder, so I think the author crafted the story with that in mind since beginning.
And thank you, your analysis captured my thoughts perfectly!

I apologize, it seems after going through the chapters so many times I may have confused the order of things. There are several panels in chapter 2 where the scar should be visible, but isn't and thus I made the mistake of stamping it off as absent entirely, but you are completely correct, the scar appears twice in that chapter. Incredibly visible at one point even which was the first time I took note of it on my first read, now that I think about it.

This does reflect poorly on my observational skills and I will take care to be absolutely certain next time before posting. We will see how accurate the rest of my assessment was when the next chapters release I suppose. I'm glad that other people had similar impressions, though.

(EDIT: I deleted the part regarding the scar's absence in chapter 2, because I was mistaken)

Regardless, by now there is a certain narrative through-line that could give us an idea how she got the scar and what caused her to change. Kanoko shows an immense aversion to PDA (public displays of affection) and often clutches her shoulder at those times when she frets. While obvious, it establishes the link between the two changes, physical and emotional. Additionally we now learned that she has inhibitions with telling "loved ones" that she is gay or in a relationship with a woman. Furthermore there have been two small flashback panels to a woman with black hair holding a baby that came up when she had one of those panic attacks.

As established this scar was something she received when she was 20 and came with whatever caused her to change so drastically that it led to the break up with Shiori. 20 being the time that she was finally considered an adult (drinking age etc.) and also the point where she would have to seriously look into her future (she wanted children with Shiori, but obviously that's very hard to achieve). Neither Shiori nor Aki knew about the scar at all, which means neither of them was involved or knew someone that could have given it to her. The only clue we have is the woman in the flashback... which looks an awful lot like Kanoko's sister Mika. The question is whether it was actually Mika or their mother. But as their mother has never come up and Mika seemed to be taking care of Kanoko, it points strongly towards the latter.
Now I am not saying Mika actually hurt her sister directly, but they clearly had an argument and that caused this injury somehow. It could be that Kanoko hurt herself while running away or got into an accident. The point is that she connects the two events in her trauma. And during Chapter 0 she actually still seemed to be her old self, flirty and happy to be with Shiori, which means this was not just a one-off event that broke her. The line that stuck out (during which she clutched her shoulder) was the main theme of the story: "We are not adults, but we are also not children".

My conclusion is that Kanoko was shunned or chastised for being in a relationship with a woman, because whoever confronted her thought it was "childish" and that she should grow up and make a "real" family. The symbolism of the baby in the woman's arms and the aversion to showing her homosexuality in front of others support this interpretation. In high-school where Kanoko could be honest and affectionate the narration labels them as childen, during college they are neither adults nor children and that's where they break up. Then as adults they get back together the moment they start working. In their adulthood Shiori is secure with her feelings she was denying as a "child", while Kanoko can't be honest with herself. That's why she admitted that Shiori had become a proper adult, because she chose to have this relationship and be open about it, despite what other people think. Kanoko is changing slowly and comes to understand that her sexuality is not just a childish fantasy that goes against becoming an adult.

At least that's my reading of the story so far.

last edited at Oct 22, 2021 1:46AM

Greetings,
my problem is connected to one of my posts being labeled as spam in the Tsuki to Koi wa Michireba Kakeru discussion thread. I may not be aware of some filtered words that are not allowed on this site or perhaps excessive repetition of the same words is considered an offense? I assure you that I was not trying to spam, I was only sharing my analyses of the manga. I may have been too wordy which caused the repetition, though.

EDIT: I rephrased it a bit and tried again and now it works. Apologies if I wasted anyone's time. I cannot even say which change caused it to work, so I have no advice for others in the same boat. Sorry.

last edited at Oct 10, 2021 4:04AM

With this series comparisons to its more comedic older sibling seem nearly inevitable. I was quite fond of that manga, even if it was rather directionless. This rewrite has actually far better pacing and momentum behind it. After all, in the same amount of chapters we have reached 3 actually established relationships with proper development and execution as well as one that is currently pending to be resolved. In that sense the mystery around the death of Nekozakl's father both creates a real endgame as well as a stark differentiation to the first iteration which allows the resolution to change just enough that it won't feel repetitive.

That being said, I have strong doubts that Nekozaki and Mikoto can reach the same rapport and emotional resolution that the final chapters in Todo no Tsumari no Uchouten did (even though we were given the promised kiss much earlier), exactly because of this more outward force causing the conflict. The fireworks chapter is still ingrained in my memory as an emotional high point. What sweet agony to have two alternate versions to the same relationship.

Side-note: I appreciate how the relationship between Tsubaki and Fujishiro is a fair give and take. So often there is a power imbalance when it comes to age gap couples, especially a teacher and a student. But Tsubaki's maturity has completely prevented any drama that could have been born from the current plot and supposed "betrayal". It's very contrary to most melodramatic takes of love across the series. If it is not too much to ask I would love for Arata Iri to delve a little deeper into their romance.

last edited at Oct 5, 2021 1:25PM

Well, yes, I am aware that yuri started with Class S stories, which would fall in the shoujo category; I just get the feeling that yuri nowadays isn't really targeted to straight girls.

From what I've read the yuri readership in more recent years seems to be about 60-40 regarding female to male audiences and not a small number are actually queer women. Which would mean that the target demographic isn't really "straight girls". Of course, I'm not that well-informed, really, that's what I've found through a very leisurely research (if I could even call it that) and how I've felt from my own experience, so I might be totally off base.

Has it really already come to a 60-40 split? Are you sure that isn't just the percentage for a specific magazine (I think we all know which one)? I know that the numbers were quite a bit more skewed 10 years ago at least... I suppose Shounen Yuri really has taken off.

Regardless, straight girls were the target demographic, which only gives you an idea of who the publishers market to ultimately. The biggest paying audience for Yuri were straight girls and therefore became the main demographic by default. I already mentioned that I was aware of the shifting market, but didn't want to go into it because it is not that relevant to the topic overall.

I find very hard to believe straight women would be the main audience of Yuri romance, which includes lewd scenes too.
Yuri is not a popular genre to begin with, with half of the audience being males, so I don't think the numbers don't add up. Btw it's not just the lesbians who are wlw.

Please keep in mind that we are talking about Japan, not the entire world.

In recent years there have been stronger appeals towards the LGBT crowd on both sides of the spectrum no doubt. Subject matters that would never have been addressed 20 years ago are now common. This shows an evolution of course that goes alongside the shifting audience.

To be honest from what I learned about, Yuri was actually seen skeptically or even frowned upon by a lot of actual lesbians back in the day, exactly because it was not very representative. And don't get me started on the porn. It's either almost non-existent to not offend the straight girl demographic or it is drawn by men (in doujins usually) who know even less about it than straight women. So "lewd scenes" were an exception if not frowned upon for the longest time. That's why Yuri used to be automatically associated with "purity". To the point where a lot of Yuri artists and fans would scoff at the idea of sexualization (which perhaps somewhat unfairly is often associated with Shounen Yuri).

Either way, I am not making it up. Girls have always been more open-minded about romance and straight women are quite a force on the market. Just consider please that 2.5% of the population of which the majority will not engage with the genre, can't actually be the main clientele. Yuri is niche, but not THAT niche.
This 50-50 split you talk about between girls and boys reading it is 100% false at least.

Actually I think there is a trope of girls that are zealots for same-sex relationships and basically support anything other than heterosexual pairings. The two genres can exist in a peaceful parallel after all.

Those people do actually exist in real life.

Certainly. like with most tropes there is always a real world origin. Like I said, it's not too farfetched as those two ideals do not cross over. Rather they complement each other. If all men are busy amongst themselves, women will be able to safely focus on other women and vice versa. Hence why I brought up that it is not unheard of for fujoshis to read both BL and GL.

Probably also because there seems to be distinction between homosexual romance written for women (yaoi) and written for men (bara). I'm not really too familiar with either to be honest, but just looking at art style alone there appears to be a major difference. Though I have seen fujos interested in a hentai called Legend of the Blue Wolves because due to being aimed for a male audience it does a lot of things you'd never see in your average yaoi.

You bring up a good point that I did not consider at all. Ultimately the twisted fetishized version of homosexual romance between men that fujoshis crave is probably not very compatible with the works that actual gay men enjoy. I was not quite familiar with the fact that Bara is a term for BL that appeals to men, I only saw occasional art of it which made me think it is focused on bulky men, not unlike the "bears" of real gay communities. This is good to know.

I have in fact heard some fujoshis talk about how they like Bara before, but they did treat it almost like a different genre from BL. Now it makes more sense.

It is common knowledge that in Japan the target audience of yuri is actually straight girls

???
Did you mean yaoi, perhaps...?

Not at all. The target demographic of GL is in truth straight girls. Yuri was an offshoot of Shoujo manga first and foremost and it has historically always had an overwhelming female audience (and obviously the heterosexual kind, as those sales numbers wouldnt work out if it was only for actual lesbians). Straight girls hold up both the GL and BL industry simultaneously basically. Only with a strong preference for one side...

Perhaps you are aware of the more recent development of "Shounen Yuri" which is aimed at boys. No doubt yuri is getting more popular with the male audience too, but the percentage is not comparable at all.

I wouldn't worry about that, I bet you can't name more than 5 titles with that, I can only think of 3 right now and one of them is just 5 % of the main series ( otome no teikoku).

I can think of quite a few more, though many not translated of course. Then again, I may well draw broader strokes as I suggested by bringing up OshiRabu and the like where an obssession with men in Otaku culture is still a major factor in a yuri work. If we added those up it would grow more sizable.

Just to clarify, I do not "worry" about this. Much like many other works that do not appeal to me I have no trouble ignoring them. It was just that I find this trend odd and wanted to get these thoughts off my chest. If there are positives to this sub-genre that would also be great.

It sounds in large part that you just don’t have much interest in BL; I don’t blame you—I don’t have much interest in that genre either.

But female BL shippers are a staple of many kinds of manga (especially SOL/workplace manga)

I cannot really deny it, but that's why I am trying to be transparent.
As for the BL shipper archetype, yes I am aware. Even in Yuri they have been a common trope for decades. And in many ways I see them as the prototype of this kind of yuri we are talking about, because occasionally a fujoshi will also be paired up with a girl in those stories.

Actually I think there is a trope of girls that are zealots for same-sex relationships and basically support anything other than heterosexual pairings. The two genres can exist in a peaceful parallel after all.

last edited at Sep 18, 2021 11:50AM

Hi, this may be a strange topic for a first post, but I finally felt like I had something that I couldn't really discuss anywhere else, Forgive me if this was already talked about somewhere before, I didn't see anything for the last few pages at least.

So maybe I should first explain what I mean by the so-called "Fujoshi Yuri". I don't especially mean yuri drawn by fujoshis (although that may often be the case actually), but rather yuri works that focus on two or more fujoshis becoming couples. For the last couple of years I've seen an increase in this very specific theme in yuri manga and it feels like it has almost become a sub-genre at this point. I can't really discern its actual popularity in Japan, but at least in Western circles it seems to have a mixed reception.

Now I want to preface this by saying that I am not interested in BL. I only read the occasional fluff that gets recommended to me, but the genre itself has no appeal to me. Therefore I am incredibly biased and not ashamed to admit it. When I read a yuri manga, seeing ten pages of the supposed heroines talking about their fictional BL OTPs just doesnt do anything for me and actually makes me skip entire pages sometimes (something I never do in any other work of fiction). So yes, I may just not be happy with this sub-genre and it may not be made for me, but I also want to talk about it more objectively.

I wonder more about how it came about and what its purpose really is.
This is just speculation of course, but here is how I see it. It is common knowledge that in Japan the target audience of yuri is actually straight girls (though there are some changes in that too lately, just not relevant enough to change that observation). It is also not uncommon that Fujoshis read both BL and GL, though with an obviously heavy lean towards the former. Also there is a perception that all female otaku, regardless of sexuality, must be somewhat interested in BL in Japan. In that light it seems to me like these stories could have two main reasons to exist:
1. To lure fujoshis into reading more yuri by using something relatable (obssession with BL) as bait.
2. For fujoshis to write a self-insertish romance that allows them to feel content with their situation.

So the obvious thing is that fujoshis will hardly be able to write heterosexual romance with the same theme. Just imagine a het man obssessed with BL... not likely. It may be possible to do with a bisexual male lead, but that probably feels too far-fetched for fujos (especially because many of them are in the hardcore "men are only for men" camp). This obssession is a clear barrier that insulates them and the only people who can truly relate are other fujoshis. So their most meaningful relationships that seem the most fulfilling will often be with other women. And that sorta relfects in this sub-genre too.

My main issue with this is that the yuri part of the stories often feels tacked on. Like the author realizes by the end of the one-shot or every few chapters "Oh right, this was supposed to be yuri, guess I will add a scene for that". The ratio of Yuri scenes to BL talk is very disproportionate. And I am fully aware that this is not an unusual case. You could argue the same for the "Sports Yuri" genre, where the sport can often eclipse the romantic progress a lot. But I suppose the main difference here is that having BL as a focus automatically puts the genres in opposition. To see a girl rave about her fictional BL OTP, drooling and blushing and exploding about sexualizing men, but when faced with their actual female lover/love interest they are so much more subdued or even seem less interested, it makes it clear that there is a huge imbalance. It seems nearly disingenuous.

I've seen a different variety of this in Visual Novels like OshiRabu where it's yuri with a husbando obssessed otaku, but the same issue permeates both. I suppose I was more accepting of it in that scenario, because Akuru was portrayed as a closeted bisexual/lesbian who drowns out her lacking emotional fulfillment with 2D boys and never actually confronted her sexuality due to it. Meanwhile in fujoshi yuri generally the love interests are either very quick to hook up or simply dont question their sexuality at all and just brush over it. Mostly because there is no time to delicately build a yuri romance, as they have to cram in so much BL talk that the only way to make sure that it is recognized as yuri is to actually skip the "foreplay" if you will.

I would like to hear people's thoughts on this topic. Is it a good way to sway some fujoshis to the yuri genre, like an introduction perhaps? Do these authors need to learn how to focus more on the actual romance of their leads? Is there another factor I am just not seeing here?