Forum › Posts by karp
I don't remember right now if we ever go deep into Remi thoughts, but from what she says about love being like a trap says a lot about her and what she thinks of love. Was she hurt in the past because of love? Probably yes, I wonder if she was directly rejected (maybe she was already an slut when she fell in love and her love rejected her for it) or was she cheated on? We don't know the answers but we know there is something there.
I might be alone here, but it's really unpleasant to see even a fictional character called a slut. I also can't fully wrap my head around that way of judging way of looking at characters. Whether or not Remi's a well-drawn character, I certainly don't think we're intended to judge her negatively for her views on sex.
It's a bit of an unpopular opinion, with everyone seeming to agree that TFWAME was either disappointing or just okay, so I probably sound like I'm making a glittering generalization when I say that I think this is the greatest yuri I've ever read.
It's hardly majority opinion that it sucks; it's just that the people who don't like it REALLY don't like it.
I'm a little confused about what here is SO horrible. What're you guys comparing it to when you look at this manga and see the worst human beings in the world whose love lives are utter disasters? There was drama, some things weren't nice, but this was hardly some pitch-black psychosexual character study. There was some nice complexity and depth to the characters, and things could be ambiguous..... but I'm wondering what someone's standards must be that this is considered so nasty and dark.
last edited at Mar 30, 2015 6:59PM
People have been accused of over-empathising with Ruki, but I think you're preoccupied with reducing Sacchan to a victim. Sacchan had clearly been hurt by her ex cheating on her and it must have made her feel inadequate. Sure Ruki sprung the fact that she liked her at a vulnerable moment, but she was trying to make her feel better about herself as much as anything, by letting her know someone out there still loved her and thought she was worth loving. I don't think it's wholly inappropriate to say that Sacchan took advantage of Ruki's feelings to make herself feel better. She even says "I was happy that she was serious about me" and "I was very happy to hear you say that you loved me". I think you're vastly over-estimating Ruki's emotional intelligence to think she was consciously capable of manipulating Sacchan in the way you're implying. Ruki had never been in a relationship before and didn't really know what to do, while Sacchan clearly brought her baggage from her previous relationship along. Neither of them were blameless, but honestly, I do think Sacchan was more to blame for how things panned out.
Oh, I don't think Ruki was necessarily fully conscious of the position she was putting Sachi in... though, I definitely think she willfully put a blind eye towards it when they had sex. None of that is unforgivable, but whether aware of it or not, Ruki DID put Sachi in an unfair position that played directly into her issues, and the fact that it was immaturity and not malice that caused it doesn't really make a difference for what happened later. In the real world, it's usually a blend of the two... but in the comic, yeah, I think we're supposed to see that Ruki's intentions are mostly good (in a very Japanese-woman definition of "good"), and it's her follow-through that sucks.
My main point is that Sachi WAS in an unfair position, and that Ruki was so afraid of rejection, she was content to leave her there perpetually. Noble motivations or not, that's not noble behavior.
If you read that first sex scene and didn't feel queasy about Ruki, then I absolutely can't comprehend how you're approaching this comic.
That one frame was certainly a danger sign, but it also had no context. We don't know how they ended up that way. All the scenes between them leading up to that show Ruki being very non-pressuring about, well, pretty much everything. You could assume that at some point the mangaka didn't show us, Ruki completely changed her approach. Or you could assume that Sachi was so not emotionally invested in sex or not-sex, and so not emotionally invested in Ruki, that she decided (as she decided in a few other places) to just go with the flow and take an easy way out instead of communicating. It's very ambiguous and IMO not that well handled by the mangaka.
Pressure doesn't have to be aggressive or violent. Ruki took advantage of Sachi's passivity and her situation to get her into bed. The fact that Ruki was motivated by True Love makes her sympathetic, but it doesn't make the whole thing not kind of gross.
Sachi should have spoken up. So should Ruki. But you're not going to convince me that a part of Ruki wasn't being strategic about not speaking up, especially after some of the stuff she said to Remi.
You're also contradicting yourself, since you acknowledge that they never had an explicit, agreed-upon relationship, and yet apparently believe Sachi violated Ruki's trust by sleeping with Remi, which doesn't really work.
Oh, come on. Ruki made her side of things clear: She loved Sachi, wanted to go out with her, wanted to be in a loving intimate relationship. Sachi proceeded to go out with her and have sex with her. She never said "By the way, I'm just playing with you to pass time and distract myself from the bad shit you helped me out of"; both she and everyone else knew perfectly well what Ruki would draw from that. Even she didn't pretend it wasn't cheating, was quite clear that that's exactly what she considered it, so I don't see why anyone else is saying different.
It's just... it's really hard for me to read what you're saying and not see it as including an aspect of "Ruki deserves to date the good, feminine Sacchan she had a crush on, because she was so loyal and so patient and stewed in silent pain from her longtime, hidden love."
Y'know, this kind of thing is usually dumb, but imagine RUKI is a man. Secretly in love with his best friend, he waits until like five minutes after she's had a painful breakup before confessing and (innocently!) pressuring her into a fake non-relationship she clearly isn't into. Instead of talking to her about it, he goes through with sex while she's listlessly lying there, not enjoying herself.
I'm not saying Ruki is terrible: she really DID have good intentions. But she's also an avoidant, immature person, and she never saw Sachi as a real person rather than an ideal.
I keep saying this, but it's absolutely perplexing to me: What is WITH some of you people and cheating? This rigid heuristic CHEATERS ARE BAD and so an enormous focus on that as the root of problems when that's not what's going on.
What you say to defend cheating is really about ends justifying means. It's my opinion that if you do something bad for some reason that involves a greater good, it may be necessary but it is still bad. The CIA may murder someone because they think lives will be saved if they do (OK, that's not really why the CIA murders people, but you know, if it was), but the act would remain murder and it would still be bad. That crime would be on the conscience of whoever did it whatever the ends they served. So OK, there may be times when due to someone's weak personality and lack of allies, coming up with a move like cheating is their only effective way out of a terrible relationship. But it would still be better if they could have come up with a more honest way. The cheating itself remains bad, even if there's some odd corner case where it's a means to good or necessary ends.
I mean, I don't want to necessarily get into some kind of deontological vs. utilitarian argument, here, but to me, what's bad is hurting someone, and violating someone's trust might or might not hurt someone to varying degrees, and cheating might or might not be considered a violation of trust. Point is, there's no RULE about whether cheating is bad; it's pretty much up to the partner.
And furthermore, cheating doesn't exist in a vacuum, which means two things. First, there's always a cause, which
is a layer of complication. But second, it can only be compared to the possible alternatives. In a perfect world, the alternative is adult, mature communication. But if someone's partner won't do that, you absolutely shouldn't then tell that person, "Well, you should have done that more honestly!"
You're not going to catch me saying that cheating on your partner isn't wrong much, if not most of the time. But it's not always that big a deal, and it's never the whole story, and, again, sometimes it's NOT wrong. It's confusing to me how profound a focus you (and others) have on it, especially when it's at the expense of paying attention to all the OTHER ways these people are hurting each other, which are much more central to the plot.
Ruki A: Idealizes Sachi and needed to have that broken if the relationship was to stand any chance, and B: Avoided even talking to Sachi for weeks, if not months. The extent of the communication Ruki ever was planning on was "I'm going to take Sacchan out on an awesome date where I drive and I'm cool and so she'll like me!"
Given that, and given Sachi's own issues she was working through? I can't get too mad at her. And dramatically, it's what needed to happen.
Hurting people is also bad. Usually, cheating does. There may be times when cheating doesn't hurt the other person. It's still a betrayal in such a case. But anyhow, that so does not apply here. Again, I can't see why anyone is trying to argue that Ruki wasn't hurt. Exhibit, for example, aside from all the tears and such, page 21. Sachi says "I'm going to tell you something that'll hurt you" and Ruki's answer is, "I've been hurt too much already, there's nothing left to hurt."
I'm already destroyed, it's too late to hurt me more . . . I don't get an analysis which wants to claim she wasn't hurt.
Ruki was hurt, but she was hurt because she thought Sachi was going to break up with her. She expressed more distress about driving badly than she did about the cheating, because her whole complex isn't being betrayed, it's that she won't be able to live up to the role she tries very, very hard to force herself into. The happy ending in sight now is that she can stop trying: Sachi can take on that role. They can both settle into where they naturally fit. Ruki can be the passive one, because that's her nature, and it might be fine, because now, at least, there's mutual understanding.
Is it over yet? God damn, I am so disappointed in the author (who I usually like) for writing such a badly plotted manga. Seriously this was only meant to make the readers feel angry and like shit.
If it inspires such strong emotions, it can't be that badly plotted.
All of this stuff blaming the victim here seems a bit revisionist. Near as I can make out, Ruki was very straightforward. She simply and flat out confessed love, and then started inviting Sachi out on dates, talking to her intimately, and apparently (although it's skimmed past rather vaguely) having sex with her. If Sachi thought Ruki was just playing around, it's not because of anything Ruki did and certainly not because she, y'know, asked or anything.
And until the discussion post-cheating I don't remember anyone saying Ruki was being a bad girlfriend or anything. Only now, when they want to defend Sachi's behaviour by saying "Oh, it's the other girl's fault she cheated" are they looking back and finding fault. I find it unpersuasive. To the contrary, even before the cheating, on a second read-through it looks to me as though Sachi wasn't treating Ruki that well. She left her hanging after her confession--"Could you wait for a reply?"--fair enough as far as it goes, but then she basically started dating her, getting emotional relief from her, and having sex with her, without ever giving that reply. One might suggest that all the way through she used Ruki and her love, and let Ruki think what she wanted because it was convenient. I'm not committed to that interpretation, but it holds a bit more water than some of the reactive claims about Ruki being a lousy girlfriend.
Even the situation where Sachi started cheating--it all started from Sachi deciding it would be too much trouble to communicate with Ruki about her ex-boyfriend wanting to be introduced to Ruki.
If you read that first sex scene and didn't feel queasy about Ruki, then I absolutely can't comprehend how you're approaching this comic. You've got this hyperfocus on the CHEATING, which means Ruki is forever cast as the victim (ignoring the situation she put Sachi in at first) and you refuse to look at the situation from Sachi's point of view.
I also think you're reading Sachi wrong about thinking Ruki was just playing around. She wasn't saying that she didn't take Ruki seriously, she was saying that she had such a rigid view of gender that even in this situation and even surrounded by lesbians, her immediate thought to seeing a feminine woman is "she'd make a nice wife."
You're also contradicting yourself, since you acknowledge that they never had an explicit, agreed-upon relationship, and yet apparently believe Sachi violated Ruki's trust by sleeping with Remi, which doesn't really work.
And finally, about cheating? Not inherently bad. It's up to the partner. Ruki doesn't seem to want Sachi to apologize, so she doesn't have to apologize.
Polyamory and open relationships aren't inherently bad. Cheating is. Ruki didn't tell Sachi to apologize, but it's clear she was absolutely crushed that Sachi cheated on her, and any reasonable person would have expected exactly that. Some of the arguments here are really reaching.
I keep saying this, but it's absolutely perplexing to me: What is WITH some of you people and cheating? This rigid heuristic CHEATERS ARE BAD and so an enormous focus on that as the root of problems when that's not what's going on.
No, cheating is not inherently bad. I've known people who've been cheated on, and it wasn't that big of a problem in their relationship, just because they didn't care too much. I've known people who cheated as a way of ending a relationship where they weren't being treated well and they were too scared to end another way, and while that's not exactly noble, it was absolutely a good thing that they did it and the terrible relationship didn't continue. Things are complicated.
last edited at Feb 23, 2015 12:18PM
I dont mean to mix cheating with abuse. If that is what it sounds like to you, sorry for havent been clear enough.
Cheating, while very different from abuse in the physical sense, can deal as much just as much emotional damage to the person at the short end. Victim of abuse tends to think that they are unworthy, not good enough and they themselves are the reason the abusers lay their hand on them.
If you're not trying to mix together cheating and abuse, then it doesn't make sense to immediately go on to say they have the same effects. They clearly don't, and so it's.... strange to even imply that something like cheating could approach being in an abusive relationship.
What Ruki was feeling in this chapter is very much akin to that, she put all the blame on herself and her self >esteem was basically crushed to dust. Sachi hurt Ruki, destroyed her ego, and even if Ruki was not asking for an apologize, if she was a decent being she at least should have feel sorry for her.
I think you're both overstating Ruki's situation and you're misidentifying the cause. Ruki's ego was never in a good state, and it was the distance between her and Sachi (which was more Ruki's own fault) that was the reason, not Sachi sleeping with Remi.
The other thing: Ruki wasn't even that bothered by Remi and Sachi having sex, because she was pretty much expecting to get dumped from the start anyway. Really can't get why people are so fixated on the "cheating" when A: that's not really what was even happening, and B: It's not all that central to the characters' arcs, here.
Ruki did care about it. A lot. You wouldnt have seen her saying why she couldnt be like Remi if that wasnt the case.
She wanted Sachi to actually be attracted to her, and she assumes the problem is that she's not cool, like Remi is. I also read it that she wanted to be able to sleep with Sachi and enjoy it, not caring about how mostly straight she is. She actually never acts too upset about the supposed cheating, so everyone's fixation on that is, again, puzzling.
And finally, about cheating? Not inherently bad. It's up to the partner. Ruki doesn't seem to want Sachi to apologize, so she doesn't have to apologize.
Sometimes, victims of abuse might be too broken or too scared to ask for justice with their abusers. Doesn't make the > abuser any less of a terrible person.
Except... Ruki isn't being abused? Like, not in any way even remotely is she even close to being abused? Even if their relationship was explicit and exclusive... which I don't think it is... it's not abuse when your girlfriend has sex with someone else and then isn't sorry.
I don't know if that's what you mean, but I've read a good number of people in this discussion just kind of blithely mixing together cheating and abuse, and it's starting to get weird.
The other thing: Ruki wasn't even that bothered by Remi and Sachi having sex, because she was pretty much expecting to get dumped from the start anyway. Really can't get why people are so fixated on the "cheating" when A: that's not really what was even happening, and B: It's not all that central to the characters' arcs, here.
last edited at Feb 23, 2015 2:02AM
You guys seriously aren't reading the same comic I am.
Okay, Ruki emotionally manipulated a fragile Sachi into having sex. Yes, there was True Love behind it (not that she ever really KNEW Sachi beyond the pedestal she placed her on). Yes, it was low self-esteem and wounded pining that motivated her, not malice or sociopathy. But she knew she was one of Sachi's only confidants, and she still pounced immediately after the thing with the ex-boyfriend went down, AND she went through with the act despite Sachi clearly not being into it. Very not okay. And a much better example of "not considering your partner's feelings" than anything Sachi has done.
I'm not saying Ruki is a terrible person, necessarily. But she is definitely a passive, immature, avoidant person. She assumed that she'd have to be the dominant one (because she's gayer, I guess), but her version of being a dominant partner is retreating into work and not talking to Sachi for weeks... and refusing to even define the relationship in the first place. That's never going to work. And it's Ruki's fault.
I can't shake the feeling that a lot of people want Sachi to just be Ruki's cute little perfect girlfriend, "won" fair and square from the fact that Ruki totally crushed on her for a long time in silent distress. Like, if the manga had ended right after Sachi said she'd consider maybe going out with Ruki, it'd be... happy? Personally, I think this is way more positive, because at least the power imbalances caused by Ruki's crush... and the immaturity on both their parts... are starting to get addressed.
And finally, about cheating? Not inherently bad. It's up to the partner. Ruki doesn't seem to want Sachi to apologize, so she doesn't have to apologize.
last edited at Feb 22, 2015 11:21PM
People also seem to be missing the deliberate deconstruction of the "perfect, passive girlfriend" trope. Sachi's an angry, tough top, built to dominate and lead, but who's been trained to be passive and feminine and dainty. Until this very chapter, Sachi has had no idea what she wants, because she was told that what she wants isn't important.
Ruki believes it's impossible for herself to be desired, which, I presume, is part of why she started putting Sachi on such a pedestal in the first place: Sachi didn't HAVE any desires. But she was never seeing her as a real person or looking past the feminine persona, and she was never going to put her in a fair position, idealizing her like that.
Honestly? If you guys were happy about Ruki "winning" Sachi (who passively and unenthusiastically went along with everything, and who had just gotten out of a manipulative relationship) but you AREN'T happy with them breaking out of the terrible, stagnant pattern they were in, then I can't really comprehend how you're approaching this story.
I think I see one big problem, here, with people's reactions: they're empathizing exclusively with Ruki. They think Ruki is the main character, Sacchan therefore exists primarily as Ruki's love interest, Remi is the bad guy, and so on. They're expecting a story that was never being told.
Symptom of what? Cause of what?
And Sachi and Ruki were in an implied relationship (and tbh if your long-standing friend confesses to you and you go ahead and have sex with them, I think it's safe to assume that counts as agreeing to a relationship without one of them having to explicitly say "from this point on we are in an exclusive romantic relationship" and considering Sachi said she wants to cheat, it's clear that she considers it a relationship as well), so it's obvious why people think that's an important plot point. The author does, clearly, since that's a large part of the current chapters.
Symptom of their rotten relationship.
And yeah... you're putting in very good words exactly HOW their relationship is terrible: Sachi had no desire to be in the relationship (and doesn't really know what she wants, period). Sachi is mad about the position Ruki put her in (though is still grateful) and is finding the easiest way possible to lash out at her. Ruki pressured a vulnerable Sachi and then retreated into work and refused to actually talk to her about things, instead hoping everything would just be okay. Remi can't control herself from poking at wounds, even when she's trying to help. It sucks, and all three of them are terrible communicators and are in a bad situation. But it's also earned and consistent with the way the characters have been set up.
Being a catalyst is definitely pretty central. Without the catalyst, the reaction would never happen, and she's been a catalyst in pretty much a lot of the drama that's going on. This seems to be concurred by other posters on the thread, too, since I've seen Remi's status as a plot device given as a reason for why people like her, as well.
Like what? WHAT drama has she been the catalyst for other than whatever happens in the next chapter? I couldn't really find anything when I reread it today.
Remi's just barely a catalyst here; she's just another in a long string of people who Sachi has humored sexually. The difference is, and this is the one plot point she's actually responsible for, is that she goes out of her way to point out this pattern to Ruki.
I don't get the impression that people want her villianised. I think they just want to see some actual response to what she's doing. Even when Ruki is confronting her about cheating, she basically gives up halfway through and says "ok then" and leaves it at that, and then Remi is even shown to be justified in what she did in that Sachi says it was necessary for her to learn to ~protect~ Ruki. A giant hammer coming down and punting her ass into the ocean would be satisfying for some, I'm sure, but it would be no less hamfisted than what's going on now.
That's what people have an issue with. That everything she does is either ignored by the people in-universe and/or is actually shown to be the right course of action, even though her motivation and actions have pretty much been pure dickishness. It's the sheer allowance that Shuninta has given her actions that make a her badly written plot device, and that's why I feel like she's a character that should've been handled better.
I honestly don't see Remi as being all that terrible, except for what she did to Meeru's bully, so I can't relate to any sense that the other characters need to reject her or justice will not be served. The fact that people are simultaneously trying to make the point that Remi is written poorly and that Remi IS TERRIBLE, I'm having a hard time not believing that the latter is influencing the former.
Honestly? that scene where Ruki has sex with Sachi is a way bigger punch in the gut for me than anything Remi's done. If you can read that and still see Ruki as purely innocent here, then you're reading this manga way differently than I am.
last edited at Feb 6, 2015 10:38PM
There were underlying issues beforehand, yes, but I doubt Sachi would've gone out and slept with a woman consistently for a month if Remi hadn't made the first move, and Remi herself said she got into it specifically because she wanted to see Ruki get screwed over from being so earnest.
....but Sachi sleeping with Remi was the symptom and not the cause. Frankly, I kind of don't see why people think Sachi sleeping with Remi for a month is all that important, except as a sign of the rot in her and Ruki's relationship.
Plus, I don't necessarily think it's "avoidance" for her to see a mark on Sachi and not want to seem like she's being controlling/pushy like Sachi's ex, either. She's trying to be considerate where her ex wasn't, and doesn't want to be paranoid by freaking out over something that might be nothing. Bearing in mind that when she did get more concrete proof that Sachi had been fooling around, her first action was to confront the issue and talk to Remi about it.
Ruki isn't avoidant because she doesn't accuse Sachi of cheating on her; she's avoidant because she throws herself into work to keep from having to confront that Sachi's not very much into her. That's pretty explicit. They have no kind of relationship at all, and Ruki's half of why that limbo is being perpetuated.
I've already said that I find Sachi worse than Remi in this particular instance, though, but that doesn't remove the fact that Remi has been central to nearly every single piece of drama in this work, and the writing has moved to accommodate her continued involvement in the friend group, despite all of the shit she's persistently putting everyone through. You expect the readers to believe that nobody would get sick of it and confront her? That tests my ability to suspend disbelief, especially after what happened to Meru.
Again, I don't see how Remi's been central to every piece of drama. She's not even central to this one, though she certainly is a catalyst for what comes next. She MAYBE can be partly credited with Ruki aditting her feelings for Sachi, but other than that, I don't get where this idea that she's the driver of the entire plot is coming from.
Unless you think the plot here begins and ends with "Sachi cheats on Ruki," which it doesn't.
And finally... all I can say is, Remi's been kind of mean, but wanting her Villainized and cast out would be the OPPOSITE of having more realistic and nuanced storytelling. She's got her bad parts, but she also has good parts that her friends appreciate, not even to mention social inertia. Frankly, it'd be hard for me to suspend my disbelief if she did get confronted the way people want.
^ At this point of the story, Sacchan isn't passive anymore
She sleeps with Remi because Remi wants her to, and then agrees with the woman she's having sex with that she's probably not gay. That strikes me as awfully passive.
I do think that underneath it is an anger... it's subtly hinted that she's pretty mad at Ruki for putting her in a position where she feels obligated to date her, whether that's fair or not. But that destructiveness is manifested in passivity.
Just saw this. Pretty excellent summation of my issues with what's gone on in the manga. A lot of people hate on Citrus for having artificially created drama, and yet seem to have no issue with Remi performing the exact same function here, what with summoning up interpersonal issues on a whim and then the fact that she was the one who instigated them being completely glossed over by the other characters around her.
Man, I'm kinda disappointed. I liked the rest of the manga, and I like the other stuff Shuninta wrote, but the ball was aggressively thrown in the trash when it came to the narrative, towards the end especially. "Remi does shitty things but nobody holds her responsible!", the musical.
...but Remi DIDN'T instigate the problems between Ruki and Sacchan. Remi's been pretty absent from the plot, until this point. Those problems completely spring out of those characters, and they're consistent with the way the characters have been drawn: Sacchan's passivity and Ruki's avoidance. Yes, and given those, it makes total sense that some outside shock is what leads them to do something one way or another.
I don't think this past chapter has been awesome, amazing writing, or anything, but it's definitely character-driven and earned. The only way you can think it's not is if you think Remi sleeping with Sacchan is the only problem in Sacchan and Ruki's relationship up to this point, when the fact is, they've never had anything approaching a relationship to start with.
It stretches credulity that people's REAL problem is with some kind of plot artificiality, when the thing that people keep going back to is "I hate this character and she's not getting her comeuppance like I want!!!"
While perfect Justice doesn't exist on the real world, people isn't that stupid and passive. Specially on a group of friends like the protagonists.
As for realism, well, realistically at least one of the girls would've called Remi on her bullshit and ditch her by now.
Uh, no, it's not unrealistic for someone to have codependency issues, to sleep with someone else while in a vaguely defined relationship, to try to sabotage a relationship because you're scared to break up with the person, or to put off a difficult conversation past the point it's healthy.
It's also not unrealistic to stand by your friend even though she has a lot of sex. As much as people are like I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST SLUTS BUT MAN REMI IS JUST A TOTAL SLUT, I don't believe for a second that if she was doing something other than sex, people would be as mad at her as they are.
Ahhh, sorry, I thought you were getting them from the Recent Releases thread on /u/, someone from Kawaii was sharing some quotes about the characters from chapter 14. Remi as envy is explained pretty succinctly there.
"She's not envious of others, but enjoys having others envy her."
Oh! Fair enough.
Though.... that's kind of a cheat, on the part of the author, since there's not really all that much difference between enjoying being envied and being prideful.
Also, /u/ anon messed up first, go check the thread again. Ruki's apparently pride, Remi's envy.
What thread, this one? Can't find it here.
Huh. I kind of like Ruki as pride. Her ego keeps her from communicating well with Sacchan (because it might lead to rejection) or from giving up. Interesting.
But Remi as envy is not great. I think it's pretty trite if she's really motivated by wanting to be innocent and loving and emotionally involved with people, like the others are. Like "ohh, she's really just sad deep down!" Boring.
So MAASA is greed? Hm.
last edited at Feb 5, 2015 4:30PM
whoa, all the confusing rage.
Seems to me that Remi's being presented as a person with good intentions and a vile nature, so she's being beneficent by being awful. She wants to disrupt the passivity that's ruining Sacchan and Ruki's relationship. Sacchan will go along with anything because the alternative for her is blind, unhelpful anger, and Ruki never believed that she had anything resembling a chance, and she's wanting to put off the rejection as long as she can.
I admit, I don't understand the apparently common belief that cheating in a relationship demonstrates a reprehensible, rotten, and unfixable moral core. I mean, I wouldn't like it if it happened to me, but I also figure that it's something that takes place in the context of a relationship, and so it's up to the partner to forgive or not. Regardless, a lot of character nuance seems to be glossed over by people who are just mad about the cheating.
Oh, and so Ruki's officially envy. That makes Remi.... greed? Makes sense.
last edited at Feb 5, 2015 3:57PM
But what about Shino? What about poor little Shino???
I think this is where we differ. I really like these characters. They're all awfully flawed and selfish (and this manga might be playing it up a little). But really, who's actually not flawed and selfish?
I agree with this. I actually think this manga does a really good job of putting the characters in conflict while making it clear none are really at fault and certainly none are anything but good-hearted (except maybe Remi, who I kind of think now is just trying to convince Sacchan she's not straight).
I haven't read the raws, but I get the impression that Remi is meant to be sneakily trying to force Ruki to be more direct and to stand up for herself in her relationship. She's obviously being manipulative SOMEhow, but I kinda think it's meant to be in service of a benevolent goal.
Unrelatedly, this series is still awesome.
So... this author actually LIVES the pure, innocent, sexless, beautiful, sweet, loving yuri ideal? Color me skeptical.
I dunno, it's pretty much identical to my relationship with my housemate. We've never dated, and would never date each other, but we're basically family and an outside observer would probably think we were married or something. Takemiya's description feels very familiar to me.
Certainly not saying it's implausible or negative in any way... in a vacuum. It's just, when you claim your life mirrors an unusual ideal specific to the genre you work in, it makes me go hmmmmmm.
It's also interesting, because her characters are often really blatantly GAY and desirious of gay sex. Not that you can't be gay and in a platonic primary relationship simultaneously, but it's interesting she goes out of her way to say she's different.
I'm sorry I don't really see where you're getting at. How is it cliché? What is it supposed to imply?
Are you guys saying she might be lying about her life? Why would she?
Sexless primary partnerships aren't super common in real life. And Pure Love (i.e. not sexual) is an enormous cliche in yuri,
And it wouldn't so much be lying as it would be just glossing over certain aspects in the way she presents it inside a yuri mangs.
last edited at Nov 6, 2014 11:06PM
So... this author actually LIVES the pure, innocent, sexless, beautiful, sweet, loving yuri ideal? Color me skeptical.
I dunno, it's pretty much identical to my relationship with my housemate. We've never dated, and would never date each other, but we're basically family and an outside observer would probably think we were married or something. Takemiya's description feels very familiar to me.
Certainly not saying it's implausible or negative in any way... in a vacuum. It's just, when you claim your life mirrors an unusual ideal specific to the genre you work in, it makes me go hmmmmmm.
It's also interesting, because her characters are often really blatantly GAY and desirious of gay sex. Not that you can't be gay and in a platonic primary relationship simultaneously, but it's interesting she goes out of her way to say she's different.