I don't think this is a surprise, but it's nice to get confirmation.

I just noticed that Evil Yvonne in the dream has the same eyes as Elsa. I wonder if that's supposed to mean something?

It’s also similar to Dahlia’s demon form. Potentially it could, but it could also just be to differentiate the characters and it could go multiple ways anyway.

Yeah they might be the same. The demon nun's look pink or light red to me, while Elsa and Evil Yvonne look dark red, but I'm not actually 100% on that.

You mighr forget the biggest thing, the eyes trigger only at full moon for the nun whereas it's the natural color of Elsa's eyes. Plus her hair become white, which has never been the case for Elsa.

I'm not really concerned with the nun, I'm concerned with Evil Yvonne having Elsa's eyes.

For the fan scans:
I'm surprised by how often the word lesbian has been thrown around in the last 3 chapters. I've been following the official scans until this point so I don't know if it's a translation issue, or when Nene was around they used to say it way more often. Like, the manga felt more subtle up until this point, and all of a sudden everyone is super gay. I don't have a problem with it, but I'm curious now if the official scans will also be like that.
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Youko really comes off as a sociopath here. She'd be perfect for Kanoko.

I just noticed that Evil Yvonne in the dream has the same eyes as Elsa. I wonder if that's supposed to mean something?

It’s also similar to Dahlia’s demon form. Potentially it could, but it could also just be to differentiate the characters and it could go multiple ways anyway.

Yeah they might be the same. The demon nun's look pink or light red to me, while Elsa and Evil Yvonne look dark red, but I'm not actually 100% on that.

This is ten times better than the idiotic manhua version.

Why? It's pretty much exactly the same.

I'm thinking it's because there's none of the horribly artificial conflict between mcs—Evie gone hysterical, hurting Elsa, kicking her out, crying, repenting, going after her next day, trying to pretend all's okay... all that bs.

Isn't that just because we haven't gotten there, yet? I went to compare this chapter and the previous with the manhua and it seems note for note the same.

Volume 4 thoughts

Unlike a lot of men in yuri stories, I don't think Wataru is a bad guy. But that's kind of it. That's all I can really say about him. He has nothing going for him. It's obvious the marriage is dead, and no matter what he or his mom want, which I assume is stability for him and not having a bad image for her, they can't revive it. Akari was the trigger, but Ayano is done with Wataru. It sucks that Japanese laws are such that he'll make it difficult for her, but I'm hoping he eventually realizes that there is nothing to save there and makes it easy on her.

As far as Akari and Ayano, it is kind of funny how often Akari emphasizes that she has no idea why she's so into Ayano, but maybe that's kind of the point. It's an attraction, it doesn't have to be rational. And unlike a lot of married women, this one actually wants to divorce her husband for her. That's gotta count for something.

I'm enjoying this story a lot. I didn't particularly like Aoi Hana, so I'm glad I gave this a shot because I like it a lot.

last edited at Sep 5, 2022 12:23AM

I just noticed that Evil Yvonne in the dream has the same eyes as Elsa. I wonder if that's supposed to mean something?

This is ten times better than the idiotic manhua version.

Why? It's pretty much exactly the same.

People who are saying it ending in chapter 20, that's a joke, right? The author hasn't said anything about it ending, right? Please no.

Well I'm definitely reading this, but I can't say I particularly like it. For one, the scumminess of this one makes me feel conflicted. For a more superficial reason, the enormously unrealistic manga boobs don't really do it for me. I much prefer the proportions of the girls in Asumi-chan.

So peach lass is maybe slow on her own feelings? Barista looks like she got it immediately.

Gorgeous art aside, I wasn't sure how I'd feel about it, dreamy manic pixie girls who're weird for the sake of it kind of annoy me, but the humor and personality in the meeting with the two boys and the Awakening in the second chapter has me hooked. And that really is a beautiful scene above.

I know what you mean about manic pixie dream girls being annoying, but that trope is defined in terms of a protagonist, almost always a man, and not as a character in their own right, so I don't think it necessarily applies here. Plus, I like how bold she is with the compliment at the end of chapter 2.

I don't know anything about Idolmaster or these character, but this was pretty cute. That's pretty rare for something I'm not familiar with, so props.

I assume everything will be revealed in the process of finding Sora, but also I have no idea why she would be missing, that came out of nowhere.

Sora's mother lives in Hokkaido and the class trip has brought them to Hokkaido, so I am assuming her mother has made her return. If I recall correctly, the mother's permission for Sora to stay behind was temporary and conditional. And the matter between them hasn't been fully resolved yet.

The mother's condition was until she graduated high school. I don't think there is much reason to bring her back.

That flashback was cute af.

I assume everything will be revealed in the process of finding Sora, but also I have no idea why she would be missing, that came out of nowhere.

So they're definitely not dating at the moment, but judging by Ren's reaction she's definitely into it.

Does it seem like Aya has more piercings? That means Mitsuki's had some influence on her. Or, you know, girlfriend stuff.

I came here hoping to find discussions about the place we're at in the story, but once again I find only discourse... why can't we have a normal comments section...

There's always reddit. This manga is popular there as well if you want chapter by chapter discussions.

last edited at Aug 25, 2022 3:49PM

If that's how you feel about it you are welcome to that, but from my perspective I think anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender, or rather than say lie, I don't think anyone has a right to demand to know your gender.

It's not a question of "rights." Mitsuki has obviously not committed a literal crime. What she's done is (a) deliberately misled another person (b) in a way she knew, or should've known, would cause them great pain if they found out (as we saw happen in this very chapter) (c) purely in order to preserve this pseudo-friendship pseudo-romance thing she had going on with her. What precise information Aya had a "right" to know about is irrelevant. Mitsuki hurt her. She did a mean thing. She should apologize! (And I'm sure she will.) And that's all I have to say about this.

Aya was hurt, but that doesn't mean someone is at fault. People can be in pain without there being an offending party. Mitsuki probably will apologize, but that doesn't mean that she was at fault.

I can't help but read this scenario and just picture any other identity issue being replaced here and it reading completely differently to people. This is literally the plot of School Ties only Brendan Fraser isn't hiding his gender but hiding his religion from people that hate his religion.

Well, first of all, the people in the trans example aren't lying about their gender, they're telling the truth about that; what they're lying/misleading about is that they're trans and not cis, which is a completely different axis of identity. A better example would be, off the top of my head, women in the Middle Ages who pretended to be men so they could work in male-exclusive occupations (sailing most famously). I think it's safe to say they weren't "wrong" to do so, but that leads to the second problem: there's an ocean of difference between "sometimes it's okay to lie about your gender" (obviously true) and "anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender" (this seems just straightforwardly false to me).

If that's how you feel about it you are welcome to that, but from my perspective I think anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender, or rather than say lie, I don't think anyone has a right to demand to know your gender. It's not a matter of true and false, we're talking about different moral perspectives. Hence, I don't think Mitsuki is in the wrong because I don't think Aya has any kind of right to know Mitsuki's gender.

So if we're going to talk about this manga and not just speak in abstraction, the question is not whether in the abstract lying about your gender is sometimes ok, but whether Mitsuki deliberately misleading Aya -- not only about her gender but also about how her crush sits right next to her in class and hears her talk to her friends about her crush -- is justified. That question can't be answered by saying "well, in this other case that has a couple similarities lying about one's gender was justified."

Right, but since you didn't read the posts in question you might be missing that some of us have been arguing exactly this. We weren't just talking trans issues. We were talking specifically about whether Mitsuki was justified in her position, and I argued she was. Do you want me to repeat the arguments I made two pages ago?

We weren't just speaking in abstraction, but sometimes it's useful to start in abstraction before going into specifics. How can you know whether there is a point to have a discussion if you aren't using the same terms? If you think "it's only sometimes ok to lie about your gender" and I think "if in the process of not revealing your gender then it's always ok to lie" then we have a mismatch of moral standpoints. We might discuss anyway so as to learn about our different moral standpoints, or we might choose not to discuss since we might not get anywhere, but either way the abstraction is useful.

last edited at Aug 25, 2022 3:01AM

Who determines what it means to "understand the story on its own terms"? I'd challenge you, or anyone taking issue with this discussion, to explain where Uranusandetc or flowsthead have committed wrongs in their character interpretations, with a lack of story understanding in mind. Failing that, I'm really not sure what value such meta discussion brings to this thread.

I'm not going to go back through the thread to see who all did it, but I do think the continuous comparisons of Mitsuki misleading Aya about her gender to a trans person not wanting to out themselves as trans is precisely the sort of context-ignoring hyper-politicized argument that can make civil conversations difficult. It fundamentally misunderstands Mitsuki's character and actions by comparing her to someone she is most decidedly not (even if we read her as nonbinary). I don't think it should be against forum rules or anything to make that argument, but it's also fair to say that anyone who does so is failing to "understand the story on its own terms" by importing into it an (emotionally charged -- for very good reason mind you) issue that is at best tangentially related.

As someone who has talked about the trans issue before, that's not being brought up because I think Mitsuki is trans. It's being brought up because there is a suggestion that lying about one's gender would always be wrong. So a counterargument by example would be an easy way to argue against that. Similarly to how people argue against the Kantian idea of lying always being bad by asking if you would lie to a crazed axe murderer to protect someone. It's not that every single lie being told is told to a crazed axe murderer but the idea is to point an obvious example in which a generalized statement does not hold.

No, Mitsuki is not trans and not nonbinary (unless the author tells us otherwise in the future but I highly doubt it). But using that argument isn't ignoring the context because the argument doesn't depend on the idea that only trans people can lie about their gender without moral implications. It's that lying about one's gender is something anyone should be allowed to do, but it's easiest to understand with the trans example.

It's an argument by example.

This is a matter that requires a conversation and apology. It’s not a crime.

A goodly number of Dynasty readers find that distinction difficult to maintain.

Or perhaps even more commonly there's a text/subtext that goes, "Putting the story aside, if someone were to actually do this in real life, it would be thus-and-so."

"Putting the story aside" is where we part company.

I don't really understand this. Stories are in part just entertainment, sure, but in part they are also the way we approach the world and talk about important issues in our lives or important events that we care about or have emotional reactions to.

Yeah this is just about two teenagers making mistakes and a misunderstanding between them, but it's just as valid for someone to look at this and see a bigger issue. That's the great thing about the interpretative nature of art, it brings in all kinds of perspectives.

last edited at Aug 24, 2022 2:05PM

Oh my god, this was so cute. Also kinda hot not gonna lie. I wholeheartedly approve of horny Nagisa. Also I'm imagining the other girls standing outside waiting and most probably hearing and/or seeing some of what's going on and just awkwardly sigh and I'm pretty much dying here.

I was surprised we didn't get a panel of the other girls waiting for them, blushing hard, and looking awkward.

Are there that many Yuri Villainess stories for there to be a pattern? Or is it more just about Villainess stories in general? I think most stories just struggle with making their protagonist anything but good, so that would apply to most Villainess stories as well, but there are some out there. The Villainess Lives Twice immediately comes to mind as someone that is decidedly amoral.