That flashback was cute af.

I assume everything will be revealed in the process of finding Sora, but also I have no idea why she would be missing, that came out of nowhere.

So they're definitely not dating at the moment, but judging by Ren's reaction she's definitely into it.

Does it seem like Aya has more piercings? That means Mitsuki's had some influence on her. Or, you know, girlfriend stuff.

I came here hoping to find discussions about the place we're at in the story, but once again I find only discourse... why can't we have a normal comments section...

There's always reddit. This manga is popular there as well if you want chapter by chapter discussions.

last edited at Aug 25, 2022 3:49PM

If that's how you feel about it you are welcome to that, but from my perspective I think anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender, or rather than say lie, I don't think anyone has a right to demand to know your gender.

It's not a question of "rights." Mitsuki has obviously not committed a literal crime. What she's done is (a) deliberately misled another person (b) in a way she knew, or should've known, would cause them great pain if they found out (as we saw happen in this very chapter) (c) purely in order to preserve this pseudo-friendship pseudo-romance thing she had going on with her. What precise information Aya had a "right" to know about is irrelevant. Mitsuki hurt her. She did a mean thing. She should apologize! (And I'm sure she will.) And that's all I have to say about this.

Aya was hurt, but that doesn't mean someone is at fault. People can be in pain without there being an offending party. Mitsuki probably will apologize, but that doesn't mean that she was at fault.

I can't help but read this scenario and just picture any other identity issue being replaced here and it reading completely differently to people. This is literally the plot of School Ties only Brendan Fraser isn't hiding his gender but hiding his religion from people that hate his religion.

Well, first of all, the people in the trans example aren't lying about their gender, they're telling the truth about that; what they're lying/misleading about is that they're trans and not cis, which is a completely different axis of identity. A better example would be, off the top of my head, women in the Middle Ages who pretended to be men so they could work in male-exclusive occupations (sailing most famously). I think it's safe to say they weren't "wrong" to do so, but that leads to the second problem: there's an ocean of difference between "sometimes it's okay to lie about your gender" (obviously true) and "anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender" (this seems just straightforwardly false to me).

If that's how you feel about it you are welcome to that, but from my perspective I think anyone should be allowed to lie about their gender, or rather than say lie, I don't think anyone has a right to demand to know your gender. It's not a matter of true and false, we're talking about different moral perspectives. Hence, I don't think Mitsuki is in the wrong because I don't think Aya has any kind of right to know Mitsuki's gender.

So if we're going to talk about this manga and not just speak in abstraction, the question is not whether in the abstract lying about your gender is sometimes ok, but whether Mitsuki deliberately misleading Aya -- not only about her gender but also about how her crush sits right next to her in class and hears her talk to her friends about her crush -- is justified. That question can't be answered by saying "well, in this other case that has a couple similarities lying about one's gender was justified."

Right, but since you didn't read the posts in question you might be missing that some of us have been arguing exactly this. We weren't just talking trans issues. We were talking specifically about whether Mitsuki was justified in her position, and I argued she was. Do you want me to repeat the arguments I made two pages ago?

We weren't just speaking in abstraction, but sometimes it's useful to start in abstraction before going into specifics. How can you know whether there is a point to have a discussion if you aren't using the same terms? If you think "it's only sometimes ok to lie about your gender" and I think "if in the process of not revealing your gender then it's always ok to lie" then we have a mismatch of moral standpoints. We might discuss anyway so as to learn about our different moral standpoints, or we might choose not to discuss since we might not get anywhere, but either way the abstraction is useful.

last edited at Aug 25, 2022 3:01AM

Who determines what it means to "understand the story on its own terms"? I'd challenge you, or anyone taking issue with this discussion, to explain where Uranusandetc or flowsthead have committed wrongs in their character interpretations, with a lack of story understanding in mind. Failing that, I'm really not sure what value such meta discussion brings to this thread.

I'm not going to go back through the thread to see who all did it, but I do think the continuous comparisons of Mitsuki misleading Aya about her gender to a trans person not wanting to out themselves as trans is precisely the sort of context-ignoring hyper-politicized argument that can make civil conversations difficult. It fundamentally misunderstands Mitsuki's character and actions by comparing her to someone she is most decidedly not (even if we read her as nonbinary). I don't think it should be against forum rules or anything to make that argument, but it's also fair to say that anyone who does so is failing to "understand the story on its own terms" by importing into it an (emotionally charged -- for very good reason mind you) issue that is at best tangentially related.

As someone who has talked about the trans issue before, that's not being brought up because I think Mitsuki is trans. It's being brought up because there is a suggestion that lying about one's gender would always be wrong. So a counterargument by example would be an easy way to argue against that. Similarly to how people argue against the Kantian idea of lying always being bad by asking if you would lie to a crazed axe murderer to protect someone. It's not that every single lie being told is told to a crazed axe murderer but the idea is to point an obvious example in which a generalized statement does not hold.

No, Mitsuki is not trans and not nonbinary (unless the author tells us otherwise in the future but I highly doubt it). But using that argument isn't ignoring the context because the argument doesn't depend on the idea that only trans people can lie about their gender without moral implications. It's that lying about one's gender is something anyone should be allowed to do, but it's easiest to understand with the trans example.

It's an argument by example.

This is a matter that requires a conversation and apology. It’s not a crime.

A goodly number of Dynasty readers find that distinction difficult to maintain.

Or perhaps even more commonly there's a text/subtext that goes, "Putting the story aside, if someone were to actually do this in real life, it would be thus-and-so."

"Putting the story aside" is where we part company.

I don't really understand this. Stories are in part just entertainment, sure, but in part they are also the way we approach the world and talk about important issues in our lives or important events that we care about or have emotional reactions to.

Yeah this is just about two teenagers making mistakes and a misunderstanding between them, but it's just as valid for someone to look at this and see a bigger issue. That's the great thing about the interpretative nature of art, it brings in all kinds of perspectives.

last edited at Aug 24, 2022 2:05PM

Oh my god, this was so cute. Also kinda hot not gonna lie. I wholeheartedly approve of horny Nagisa. Also I'm imagining the other girls standing outside waiting and most probably hearing and/or seeing some of what's going on and just awkwardly sigh and I'm pretty much dying here.

I was surprised we didn't get a panel of the other girls waiting for them, blushing hard, and looking awkward.

Are there that many Yuri Villainess stories for there to be a pattern? Or is it more just about Villainess stories in general? I think most stories just struggle with making their protagonist anything but good, so that would apply to most Villainess stories as well, but there are some out there. The Villainess Lives Twice immediately comes to mind as someone that is decidedly amoral.

Kind of lame. 6 chapters isn't a lot to work with, and it's not like this didn't have cute moments, but ultimately this felt really forgettable.

A surprising amount of people here are into yanderes.

@Pyrrho

I didn't say mine nearly as well, but I was trying to say something similar. I agree with this completely.

I'm gonna delete some of this to simplify the response, but I did read it all.

@flowsthead: "And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response." I... genuinely do not get this part... why would someone equate this with violence in the first place, much less react with violence in return? If this was a situation in real life, the most that would probably happen would be that the people in question would break contact.

So that part was in response to a question about how demanding to know someone's gender can be transphobic, and trans people have faced a lot of violence by just the reveal of their being trans. I can explain more if you want, but the decision to not be open about how you identify in real world situations has often been done for self protection, and is still being done today.

She is not an innocent bystander swept into this against her will, she is actively building a social interaction that anyone with a modicum of sense ought to know can not go on indefinitely based on lies, direct or by omission, about something as basic as one's identity.

In the sense that she overheard Aya say she was attracted to her record store persona, yes Mitsuki has knowledge of the situation that does not make this a choice against her will. And she is an active participant. But Aya hasn't made her feelings known to the record store persona, so I still don't think Mitsuki has any kind of imperative to reveal herself. She would dress the way she does anyway for her job. The only time she hid herself on purpose was at the festival, which is definitely an active part of maintaining the disguise. It's not ideal, but there are real world ramifications to being gay that regardless if Mitsuki vocalizes them or not factor into her being hesitant to reveal herself.

Like, at one point you kind of lightly touched upon this aspect ("when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board"), though you did not specify gender, instead spending more time developing the religious analogy.

Yeah, because I do acknowledge that if they were to start dating then Mitsuki should reveal herself. But they aren't dating. And while they aren't dating, I don't think she has to. Aya has a crush, but that's no reason to assume that she will actually do something about that crush.

You have put a lot of emphasis in your post on the present tense, that they are not dating at the moment, but I should think it would be obvious these same standards apply to attempts to date someone just as well.

This is like some Minority Report talking about future crimes kind of thought process to me. They aren't dating. Unless their friendship depends on the gender of Mitsuki, rather than the fact they both like the same type of music, then it shouldn't matter until one of them confesses.

All of this makes me believe Mitsuki had an obligation, a moral one if no other, to come clean long before now. In fact, I hoped she would come clean of her own volition (though those hopes were quickly diminishing with each chapter, after seeing how desperate she was to keep up the pretence). Being caught, by contrast, is a weaker outcome that did not rely on any of her positive traits finally prevailing.

Look, we may just disagree on this. For you, the moral imperative is about being above board about everything with the understanding that they may never speak again if Mitsuki reveals herself. I think even assuming that the lie by omission applies here, which I don't necessarily, that is an understandable moral failing on Mitsuki's part in the service of a friendship she wouldn't otherwise have.

I think most of us understand why historically there have been many women who have dressed or acted as men to be able to do things they wouldn't otherwise have been able to do. And we do not begrudge their lies there because they are in the service of fighting for something that we would agree with, for women to be given the opportunity to do something they would not otherwise be allowed to do.

The difference here is obviously that Mitsuki isn't doing this to fight sexism, it's just a personal relationship between two people. But Mitsuki is also not lying about any other aspect of herself. She's not changing how she dresses at work. She's not pretending to like things that Aya likes for the sake of maintaining that friendship. And these are all things that are regularly given as advice for people hoping to date. The one part that does not match is that Aya's assumption of Mitsuki's gender is wrong. I'm absolutely not going to blame Mitsuki for that. I think the same historical thought process applies on a smaller scale. If the idea is, "we wouldn't be talking to each other if you knew I was a girl" in the same way that, "I wouldn't be allowed to do this job if you knew I was a woman", then that's pretty fucked up logic.

So personally, no, I don't think Mitsuki has a moral obligation until one of them confesses romantic feelings, regardless of information she might have about Aya's interest. If Aya confessed chapter 1 and Mitsuki rejected her, I don't think she would have had an obligation to correct her on her gender assumptions. If Aya confessed chapter 15 and Mitsuki said, "I would say yes, but would you still want to date me if you knew I was a girl" and revealed herself then, I still wouldn't have a problem with Mitsuki. Neither of those things will happen since Aya found out on her own, but the point is the same.

^I agree. She was aware of the misunderstanding and chose to let it stand- and even tried to make sure the misunderstanding wasn't found it- which falls short of lying imo.

It does not fall short, actually. Lying by omission explicitly covers situations where one party makes a wrong assumption and then the other party deliberately does not correct them and leaves them to operate under said wrong assumption. Mitsuki lied here, that much is beyond dispute. Especially once she transitioned into just straight up purposefully maintaining the misunderstanding, such as concealing her face outside work whenever she happened upon Aya and threatening Jerkface to stay silent.

One could say she had her own reasons for wanting to not be found out- she had no obligation to clear it up.

Are you serious? Not baiting, legitimate question. Aya was pursuing a personal relationship, be it friendly or romantic, with Mitsuki. Mitsuki was well aware of this, and in her "onii-san" persona she actively encouraged it and willingly participated, all the while deliberately leaving Aya in the dark. On what plane of reality can this be seen as "yeah, she was totally not under any obligation here whatsoever"? It is a shitty thing to do to anybody, period, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

And her "reasoning" boils down to "I am an introvert, she is an extrovert, the two do not mix", which is a laughably thin rationale for someone to do what she did.

We had a big argument about this in the first 10 or 20 pages of this discussion. The argument here is that while there is such a thing as lying by omission, there is also such a thing as presumption of privacy. Not telling someone something isn't of itself a moral wrong, it just depends on the relationship you have and the conversations you've had until this point.

Look I'm not going to make you search for it, here is what I wrote back then:

I think it'll be easier to understand with some analogies.
"How could you not tell me you were a girl?"
"How could you not tell me you were black?"
"How could you not tell me you were Chinese?"
"How could you not tell me you were Muslim?"
Etc.

There is a presumption here that keeping that information from other people is a form of deception. And the corresponding implication that to keep that from someone is a form of violence, which would then necessitate a violent response. The answer is that it's no one's business.

Of course, you could argue that there are certain things that you should reveal in a relationship. If you have religious differences on how you should raise your kids, then the topic of your respective views on faith definitely needs to be above board. And yes, when physical intimacy comes into play then discussions of how you go about that should also be above board.

But that doesn't hold true for 99% of interactions. Your coworkers, your customers, your classmates, and any other strangers in your life have no right to know that information about you. Acting like this is a deception when they aren't dating is to presume ownership of that aspect of another person's privacy. Just as it would be xenophobic to demand to know where someone was born before interacting with them, and racist to demand to know the color of their skin, it would be sexist/transphobic to demand the same for their gender.

I’m thinking oosawa isn’t going to confront mitsuki about this right away. She is either going to distance herself complete or she will interact with both male and female versions to slowly piece together in her mind that they are the same person. Either way I’m excited for some oosawa introspective! We obviously know that mitsuki likes oosawa romantically but that’s only because oosawa is interested in her (when she’s a him). If it wasn’t for that these two would have never interacted despite sitting next to each other and sharing music tastes. That being said I wouldn’t be surprised if this leads to friendship and eventual mutual feelings between oosawa and girl mitsuki

This seems likely to me as well. I imagine she will want to distance herself somewhat, but will find that hard since they both have to work for committee. Forced to spend time together she might confront Mitsuki, or at least deal with the negative emotions that will inevitably build. I'm also curious, like you said, if she will still go to the store or still text Mitsuki to kind of feel her out.

There are so many great places this could go, but 4 pages a week is killer. I need more!

This is getting frustrating. When will Mai show up???

I think you're reading the wrong manga.

Mai is the Macguffin. "Searching for Mai" is the thin connective tissue for a whole bunch of hot sex, which is what the series is actually about. Mai showing up ends all the fun.

hey, it’s not just about the sex, I read it for the plot at least :V

Considering that Asumi, in multiple occasions now, booked a session more to have sex bc she’s horny, and finding Mai has more or less become like an happy accident or side effect. Slowly as we keep progressing, it’s becoming clear that even when she finds Mai, it’s not going to be as romantic and happy ending as some people are hoping/expecting it to be. She’ll probably keep going to the brothel because she wants to enjoy having sex with different kinds and even multiple girls at once if she can afford it.

This series could even continue even after finding Mai, but they’re keeping it for now as a pretend goal to keep up Asumi’s sexscapades until a new goal or plot motivation comes up. The title is “Asumi is Interested in Lesbian Brothels” and not “Asumi goes to a lesbian brothel to find her childhood friend”, there are many ways for this story to continue past finding Mai, and with how well received it is, it is highly likely it will keep going past that point.

I don't think that's guaranteed. Maybe she'll continue going to brothels, maybe they'll be in an open or poly relationship, or maybe she really will settle down with Mai. She likes the sex, obviously, but the emotional involvement with Mai might be worth so much more that she'll give up the brothel.

I love shit like this. It'd be awful in real life. But in fiction toxic relationships like this are really gratifying.

The art is always so good for this one. Those panels of Hizuki running her finger up Asumi's lower back/spine were hot as hell.

She does have a point. Close the door you animals.

EDIT: And lock it.

last edited at Aug 10, 2022 10:02PM

I don't think Hinako thinks they're dating, but I do think she's noticed the change in Tsukushi and is trying to set boundaries until she's sure that Tsukushi likes her as well. So I think Tsukushi will have to confess.

54 pages in the forum...

I know this is just me being negative but I'm kinda scared of how good and popular the reaction was with this manga, with just a few chapters with few pages and we're almost 10 pages in the forum.

It was bad when it was 10 pages, now we're at 54.
ngl I feel you, it's kind of irksome that so many amazing series only get a limited number of reactions while this with a few 4-page chapters of silliness boils such fervor. In ex. Lilies, Voice, Wear Wind at four whole volumes doesn't have even half the number.

It's partly about expectations. A really serious, slow burning series won't garner immediate reactions the way this one will, but it might have a long tail of people getting into it and becoming passionate about it.

In this manga's favor, the art is really, really good. The characters are really well defined for how many pages and chapters this has gone on. Mitsuki and Aya feel like they exist in this world beyond say the tropes of extrovert/introvert or gyaru/plain, and the art helps with making their expressiveness be part of their characterization. Plus, although we've been in a bit of a holding pattern as far as their relationship, things like chapter 5 and the way Aya asks for her number really has that Reiwa energy, and everyone gets hyped about "progress".

Also, and I do think this contributes more than might be expected, they're not particularly moe. "Cute" type girls are overrepresented in manga, and while gyaru are having a resurgence at the moment, alt-style girls are pretty rare. I can think of one other manga that has an alt-style girl lead. Variety in character can feel really refreshing after reading the same type of thing over and over again. "Cool" girls are pretty common, especially in yuri, but most of the cool girls are identifiable by short hair and being good at sports, and most of them still look generic. Mitsuki's style is pretty rare in manga.

Personally I think it's mostly that this series is incredibly short and easy to consume, it's very simple and straight forward. People tend to enjoy very quick to consume content, it's why Vine was popular and TikTok is now so popular. Along with media clips getting a ton of attention and so fourth. People like short and easy to consume content, and then to go about their day. I also think it's that this series is more on the Western side than a lot of manga, and it heavily leans into Western music, so there's an easy amount of relatability for a Western audience.

I think short content being easy to consume can be a factor, but I'm not sure how much it matters for manga. Regularity and having an initial hook seem much more important for something to blow up rather than length. Some things just hit a nerve. The Western side of it definitely is a factor, although I don't think the music necessarily is. I don't think a lot of teenagers even in the West are going gaga for Aerosmith or Black Sabbath. But the idea of having different personas at school and at home, of different personas among friends and a crush, of getting along with people but not necessarily having the same interests, those are universal concepts.

54 pages in the forum...

I know this is just me being negative but I'm kinda scared of how good and popular the reaction was with this manga, with just a few chapters with few pages and we're almost 10 pages in the forum.

It was bad when it was 10 pages, now we're at 54.
ngl I feel you, it's kind of irksome that so many amazing series only get a limited number of reactions while this with a few 4-page chapters of silliness boils such fervor. In ex. Lilies, Voice, Wear Wind at four whole volumes doesn't have even half the number.

It's partly about expectations. A really serious, slow burning series won't garner immediate reactions the way this one will, but it might have a long tail of people getting into it and becoming passionate about it.

In this manga's favor, the art is really, really good. The characters are really well defined for how many pages and chapters this has gone on. Mitsuki and Aya feel like they exist in this world beyond say the tropes of extrovert/introvert or gyaru/plain, and the art helps with making their expressiveness be part of their characterization. Plus, although we've been in a bit of a holding pattern as far as their relationship, things like chapter 5 and the way Aya asks for her number really has that Reiwa energy, and everyone gets hyped about "progress".

Also, and I do think this contributes more than might be expected, they're not particularly moe. "Cute" type girls are overrepresented in manga, and while gyaru are having a resurgence at the moment, alt-style girls are pretty rare. I can think of one other manga that has an alt-style girl lead. Variety in character can feel really refreshing after reading the same type of thing over and over again. "Cool" girls are pretty common, especially in yuri, but most of the cool girls are identifiable by short hair and being good at sports, and most of them still look generic. Mitsuki's style is pretty rare in manga.

The 120% lewd is false advertising, more like 60% lol

Yeah the cover page is super lewd, so it is surprising that the actual chapter isn't. Still hot though.