The tiny reaper (167cm) gettting crushed by the galaxy sized giant (169cm).

This double entendre may get lost one most people.

Violet? But Vi stands for Violence. And Vicious. And Victory.

Magical girl with a magical tongue. Momo probably tastes like peaches.

Reine can't live without Moona's feet anymore. Make of that information what you will.

Were you to remove Romeo from Romeo&Juliet, there would only be Juliet left. And with just Juliet there is no drama and no tragedy. So adding another Juliet will then double the happiness and the sadness spared. Juliet&Juliet is the ideal that was too revolutionary even for Shakespear. My kind of love story.

last edited at Jan 13, 2022 11:05AM

Sounds like you're more or less talking about 'notice me senpai!' which is definitely... quintessentially Japanese. Generally speaking though I think nothing is really supposed to come out of those kind of infatuations... senpai typically doesn't notice and the kouhai moves on to a better match. Though it does play out awkwardly in yuri.

I'm not talking about that meme/trope, although it may be an adjacent issue to it. The "senpai notice me" trope is usually for background characters or minor side-characters who obviously have no chance with their target of affection.

I am talking about actual love interests, mostly main characters. It is very common for a girl to constantly internally demand that her crush realizes she is in love with them. She will go out of her way to give extreme hints or set up a romantic situation, but never actually confess, just hoping the other party will somehow get it and maybe confess first. The entitled mental process is really exasperating. It's not even the "I will make you fall for me!" trope, because that one would at least be more proactive.
An even worse variation was mentioned above, where the girl is in a bad limbo relationship and doesn't speak up, but is blaming the other party for not noticing. All these lack of communication tropes are alike.

Also I can't tell why you think this awkward trope is more awkward in Yuri. They are the same level of pointless in any genre.

Licentious Lantern posted:

Lack of communication in general. When one of the two (or both) just makes assumptions and never talks anything out.

I totally agree, but I feel this one more than anything is just writers clutch. In vast majority of stories, if characters would just talk things out, you'd have no story.

In this particular case the lack of communication I was talking about was really related to the inability to express emotions. Unable to confess and expecting the other party to just figure it out. The partner who just assumes they are in a certain type of relationship because they feel that's how it is etc. I think these are less writer's crutches and just cultural issues. I never see this kind of writing outside of Japanese media.

Of course the girl who pines for her crush but never confesses is a common enough trope everywhere, usually it's a matter of insecurity about whether they will reciprocate or fear that it may ruin their relationship (those are also common enough in Japanese romance). But only in Japanese media do I see the entitlement of the characters to expect the other party to have to pick up the hints and figure out that the girl is in love with them. This confusingly asinine writing where a character makes incredibly complicated plans for the other party to realize they are in love with them... without actually just saying it. Not only does this make the chances of getting to the point incredibly slim, it also leaves open room for the love interest to actually figure it out, but stay quiet about it due to uncertainty or other reasons.

Both those cases of lacking communication, I believe, are based on the passivity of Japanese society. Expressing oneself, talking about feelings, approaching the opposite sex (it's even worse for homosexuals obviously) are all highly discouraged in Japan. Furthermore there is an inherent ideal that a man has to confess, so obviously Shoujo manga will push this trope into overdrive and Yuri manga are left with two female love interests who both cannot take initiative.

last edited at Jan 11, 2022 9:18PM

To put this matter aside, I also got a trope that I really dislike, of which I was reminded while reading "The Real Momoka". I also mentioned it there, but I really hate those stories where a character is in an unsatisfactory to them relationship, where they're basically just going along with whatever rules the other person has set and are like, "I really hate this/her, but it's too late, she's already got me under her spell" or some other stupid excuse. It annoys the hell out of me. This usually involves the other partner being a player, more often than not bisexual, who openly fools around with other people.

Another variation of this is when the two characters are not in a relationship and are simply friends, with one of them secretly being on love with the other, and constantly having to hear her friend's stories of all the men she's "seduced". And just going "God, she's so terrible, but I'm also one of her victims". It exasperates me.

I understand you completely here. It is one of the things I dislike immensely as well. Though that particular story you bring up is interesting in so far that it was a misunderstanding mostly. It rarely turns out that well.

Honestly, that story brought up the overarching issue for me that goes along right with that. Lack of communication in general. When one of the two (or both) just makes assumptions and never talks anything out. This can go both ways. The total victim mentality of "Why do you not understand my feelings? Take a hint!" even though she never actually voices said feelings is simply attrocious. Similarily the other party assuming that not spelling anything out is good enough, because obviously she gets that you love her and take it seriously even though you never established that... Ugh.

This mostly goes along with wet towel protagonists who don't have the mental strength to confess or to ever say how they feel. It's a cheap attempt at drawing up Angst. It's one thing to have conflicted feelings before a realization or having genuine worries about ruining something. It's another to suffer through a bad situation for absolutely no reason just because you expect the other party to mindread.

^It must happen any day now. We know they had their first sexual experience sometime after they graduated high school due to the anime novels, but at that point kissing has already become normal for them. So that only leaves about 1 year of room for them to have their first kiss.
Until then you will have to make do with fanfiction I suppose haha.

last edited at Jan 11, 2022 5:37AM

If the French know one thing, it is not to waste good wine. Also something about a particular kind of kiss, but the name eludes me right now...

EDIT: also, if anyone knows why Iroha is talking about 「ラッピング」, i'd love to know.

Is it not [wrapping] rather than [rapping]? I confess I was also very confused when the translation said rap.

I am not always a fan of pairing the spares, but I think Izumi has suffered enough and Iroha has been one of the most positive influences in her life. I don't think they have all that much in common, but this manga has proven time and again that opposites attract and that even just trying to go a bit towards each other's interests can improve a bond considerably. Also now the option of double dates has opened up, which is far better than having two third wheels!

It has to be said, this manga always has really strong crying scenes. And plenty of them to boot. The way characters always show all their emotions is definitely a strength of the work and one of the most memorable parts.

At this point there's been like 6 separate instances in which some variation of "let's stop" or "let's agree to disagree" was posted. So, let's stop already. Thanks.

When I decided to end the conversation that is it from my side, I guarantee it.
Still, it would be nice if the mods could keep an eye on @strayalive. They seem excessively hostile or disparaging in every conversation they had in this thread.

But thanks for calling me stupid...? lol

For the record, I was just interested in the talk about tsunderes and himederes. After all, we are in a discussion about tropes, not one about IFTV, so I don't see why openly discussing the plot should have been expected. Though I can also understand why you might have thought it was okay.

Was the hyperbole really necessary? I haven't questioned your intelligence at all.
To me it is obvious not to read conversations that involve series I haven't finished, this is why I was surprised by your perspective. Perhaps we are simply used to different conversational ettiquette. The internet is not exactly graceful about such matters, so I was trying to impart my own advice on the two-way caution system.

I can at least understand that a first post could catch you off-guard and it would certainly be unfortunate if there were spoilers in it, that would be very careless of the poster indeed. It's just that in this case we only brought in spoilers later on, so by that point I was certain no manga-only would continue reading it.

I'm glad the spoilers were mild enough not to affect you at least. Apologies nontheless.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:41PM

I love how people are just casually discussing "Claire's downfall" here, as if that wouldn't be a spoiler to people still unfamiliar with the story. The popularity of a work does not warrant openly discussing important plot elements in unrelated threads.

Is IFTV popular? I wasn't even aware. In fact the reason I did not even consider this an issue is that it would be asinine for people seeing us discuss a series they havent completed yet to read the conversation in the first place. I won't make excuses like saying that it should be obvious that a story about a villainess has a negative intended outcome for the villainess (whether this comes true or not), but at least some caution around unfinished works should be applied.

I will add spoiler tags, but please, try to be more careful as well. It's easier for everyone if both sides are cautious.

---

I mean... you're the one who made it an issue in the first place.

....I did not. You were the one who brought up that you read it all and that I am probably manga reader who isn't aware of where the plot goes yet as an argument. I merely tried to convey that we are on the same level of insight here and that the discussion thus has no such limitations.

Claire being evil or not also is of no concern to whether she is tsundere or himedere. Neither give any hint towards the moral alignment of a character. There are villains and heroes who are tsundere or himedere. Obviously IFTV is a story trying hard to subvert the villainess trope. Nobody in the story is stereotypically evil.

Okay now you're moving goalposts. According to your original premise she couldn't be himedere because she's a villainess.

I never said that. I said a himedere is not a villainess by default and vice versa. In fact I said a villainess can be a himedere, but it's not somehow a requirement. I am sorry, you seem to have lost the thread of the conversation a few times now. I implore you to carefully read my posts.

Let me sum up the major difference between the two tropes in a neat bow:
Himedere: "You are my obedient dog and if you act the way I want I will reward you with my love."

Um... yeah that's called a sadist, not a himedere. A himedere is mostly just obsessed with their own status, though there is a decent amount of overlap between himedere, tsundere, and sadist.

Not exactly. The flaunting of status, the desire for control over the partner and the direct expression of ownership are all himedere traits. They are not traditionally tsundere traits. Sadism is a different aspect altogether, though they can mix.
A himedere will compensate a love interest with affection if they show reverence or suitably impress them. This can be viewed as sadistic at times, but in most cases it actually is just dominance.

You see where the overlap may lie between the two and why you got confused. You most likely believe that this is also a himedere trope: "How could I ever love a commoner?!"
But that is just a tsundere oujo-sama type actually. A himedere is not so much concerned with denying her feelings as to show her superiority alongside them.

I think you're just gaslighting me at this point. Claire has the ringcurls, the laugh, the obsession with her own nobility, but I'm wrong (and apparently shallow?) for believing my own eyes that she's himedere. Whatever, the belligerence isn't helping your case.

....you are very unpleasant to converse with. I have been trying my hardest to reply objectively. I genuinly am trying to explain to you why your viewpoint might be off. Ring-curls and the ojou-sama laugh are exactly that... ojou-sama traits. An ojou-sama is not a himedere by default. In fact they mostly aren't. An ojou-sama can be anything from a tsundere to a kuudere or yandere. And yes, even a himedere. But you seem to purposely avoid every reason I gave you for why Claire is a typical tsundere.

I fear I cannot get through to you, so this will be my last response.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:16PM

SPOILERS

No, I myself have read all three volumes of the LN and own them physically. I am quite aware of what happens and why.

That's nice but the entire series has been fantranslated (maybe 6 volumes worth in total) as well as the 18+ "First Night" chapter (if you're feeling frisky) and the retelling told from Claire's perspective (She's Pretty Cheeky for a Commoner) is ongoing.

And this is relevant how? Are you trying to one-up me with some strange idea of superior knowledge? The funny thing is that I read the fan translation first and only afterwards read the official translations. Claire is already past her tsundere phase by the end of volume 2.

Himedere and the "villainess" archetype are not synonymous either. A himedere actually has nothing to do with it, aside from the fact that a villainess archetype can also be a himedere. Claire is not one such case. Her downfall is unrelated to himedere archetypes and her falling in love with Rei happens before the downfall anyway. The fact that you are trying to link them weakens your argument.

I mean... its a matter of demographics. There's shoujo magical girl series as well as seinen magical girl series, with different characterizations in each but still recognizable to anyone and everyone as magical girls. There's no reason for a villainess in an otome game to really show her dere side, but in a galge you want her to be desirable or redeemable even if she is evil.

This paragraph said actually nothing. What "demographics" are involved here? Why is this relevant to my point? A himedere archetype is very well defined regardless of genre. Claire does not fit into it. Period.

Claire really isn't evil (or tsun) as much as proud, so I still think himedere fits her best... but I'm also not trying to spoil people who are manga only so this isn't the place for this debate, either. Agree to disagree, for now.

Claire being evil or not also is of no concern to whether she is tsundere or himedere. Neither give any hint towards the moral alignment of a character. There are villains and heroes who are tsundere or himedere. Obviously IFTV is a story trying hard to subvert the villainess trope. Nobody in the story is stereotypically evil.
Pride also does not make you a himedere. There are plenty of proud tsunderes, in fact pride is one of the primary motivations for many tsunderes to not be honest about their feelings. Admitting to liking the protagonist is often seen as a loss.

Let me sum up the major difference between the two tropes in a neat bow:
Himedere: "You are my obedient dog and if you act the way I want I will reward you with my love."
Tsundere: "Y-you aren't worth my time, how could I ever love you?!"

You see where the overlap may lie between the two and why you got confused. You most likely believe that this is also a himedere trope: "How could I ever love a commoner?!"
But that is just a tsundere oujo-sama type actually. A himedere is not so much concerned with denying her feelings as to show her superiority alongside them.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:57PM

SPOILERS

Eh... its a bit more complicated. Himedere is the word you're looking for. (Oujidere for males)

I've actually read the entire LN, though I'm still behind on Cheeky for a Commoner, and I'm also a VN and RPG nerd so I'm relatively familiar with her archetype. I actually really like the archetype - Natal March is one of my favorites - but even in galge her type isn't necessarily romanceable... you've got a better shot with the biological little sister. They definitely are similar to classic tsundere but aside from whatever insecurities and trauma made them an asshole there's a fall from grace that's almost guaranteed, and even if you're only following the manga you can tell Rei is trying to cushion Claire from that fall. Generally speaking characters like that take enough critical hits to their identity to where no matter how in love they are they need some time to themselves before pursuing a relationship. If you follow popular anime Eris Boreas Greyrat is a somewhat decent example of what I'm talking about.

No, I myself have read all three volumes of the LN and own them physically. I am quite aware of what happens and why.
You are still completely wrong. A himedere is a girl that wants to be treated with reverence or like royalty by their target of affection, but being a tsundere about her love is not a factor at all. A himedere may be dismissive of those she considers of lower standing, but in regards to love that usually manifests in a desire for possessiveness and control, not tsundere tropes.
Himedere and the "villainess" archetype are not synonymous either. A himedere actually has nothing to do with it, aside from the fact that a villainess archetype can also be a himedere. Claire is not one such case. Her downfall is unrelated to himedere archetypes and her falling in love with Rei happens before the downfall anyway. The fact that you are trying to link them weakens your argument.

Claire is a straightforward tsundere. The layer of noble vs. commoner is her incentive for initially "disliking" or belittling Rei, but the reason she is a tsundere is her inability to face up to her romantic interest in Rei, however she may internally justify it. She gets wildly embarrassed when Rei flirts with her, she is dishonest about her motivations when she is kind to Rei, she shows cute moments at times of vulnerability, but quickly regresses when she becomes aware of her honesty.

Claire is a quintessential classic tsundere, with the benefit of being written in current times and thus the author had the insight to make her more agreeable and her character development natural. I think what had you confused here is that Claire accepting her romantic feelings and becoming more politically aware before the downfall of her family happened in the same gradual line.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:56PM

Coming back every couple months to a manga you don't like just to point out you still don't like it sounds like trolling to me.

Though I completely agree that there is no point in simply coming to a comments section to hate on a work, I believe it is not altogether as absurd to keep reading something you dislike. To analyze and take apart what doesnt work and why you cannot bring yourself to like it is essential in dealing with media. Of course just repeating the same critcism every chapter lacks value... even moreso if what you say has been objectively refuted.

I believe there are things we can avoid outright (for example, I do not come to Dynasty to read all the Het works that keep popping up for some reason), but there are also things that may be more inside our comfort zones, yet fail to connect properly.

A Room For Two has a lot of aspects that can be frustrating, but there is also very little like it out there, so I'm not surprised that people with less favorable impressions keep coming back to see how it changes, even with its deliberately slow pace (note: Not slow in terms of time moving. Just how has it already been 7 years for them?!).

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:23AM

I don't follow many of those series and others I just sort of disagree with... Claire Francois is more of an ojou type than a tsundere for example... she's Luviagelita Edelfelt, not Tohsaka. I never said they were nonexistent, either, just that there weren't many that seemed noteworthy or memorable in yuri works.

I do not subscribe to either "classic" or "modern" tsunderes being more prevalent, as the trope is so overused it has infinite variations across media. This, however, is completely incorrect. Claire is a classical tsundere archetype especially once Rei manages to worm her way into her life properly. At first she is supposed to be the villainness, the bully, but quickly it's basically Rei who is bullying her with affection, which Claire does not respond to well. She has strongly negative reactions without the dere in the early chapters, but very quickly more and more dere sneaks in there, while she still acts in abject denial of her growing feelings.

The further the arcs go, the more Claire drops her tsun. She may have one of the most clean progressions as far as tsunderes go. If you get hung up on the superficial appearances like this, then I am not sure if your judgement towards tsunderes is very well thought out.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:46AM

I would actually find a "She never returns to the present" timeline to be pretty brave and novel, though. I feel bad for future Seto, though.

That is assuming future Seto still exists if that was the ending they were going for though, which I think is not necessarily true. Unless this is an Avengers Endgame type time travel where altering the past simply creates a new split timeline, in which case it would definitely be horrible for future Seto. Can you really imagine though that this author was going for something like that?

That's why I specified "central characters" who are given full development--those two remind me of the bitter old married couples I see shopping in stores, where they're snipping at each other the whole time about how whatever the other one's doing is wrong. Something's keeping the two of them together, but we can't see what.

And to me that was the second least effective/interesting couple in the entire series, with only the cosplayers edging them out for first place.

I'd almost say that the two-tsundere pair can rarely work (again, real genius can do almost anything) because without a foil character the pairing just reinforces the hostility and aggression of the character type rather than the possibility for change.

Oh, what a shame. I actually like them a lot. If they had gotten a proper resolution instead of just being stamped off as finished after their volume was done I'd have even put them into my top 3 pairings. There was something very interesting about their dynamic and they were both very likable in their own way. All I really needed was a reciprocated confession and some more kissing. The cosplay couple was also effective in telling a story that is very rare in yuri... old flames getting back together. Breaking up and finding a new girlfriend is already rare enough as it is, but this was really something else. I liked them a lot.
The only pairing that did absolutely not work for me was the polyamory trio. That may just be because I don't think Canno understand polyamory (her next work about another poly triangle proved that it wasnt just growing pains sadly, she really does not do well with the theme). Also the inability to commit on the aunt/niece pair made me wonder what exactly Canno's threshholds are...

Ahem, anyway, double tsundere, yes. It is a rare and complicated affair, but actually one I am fascinated by. There is 5 seconds until a witch falls in love which comes close to that concept and nails it completely, especially with its sequel. Though again, it has that enemies to lovers aspect to it, which I suppose justifies the tsun side of things far more. Maybe there is something to that.

It's not strictly a yuri trope, but you know what else I don't like? Heart-shaped pupils.

You must have accidentally overlooked this masterpiece.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/hana_ni_arashi_ch16#10

last edited at Jan 9, 2022 6:22PM

Licentious Lantern posted:

the idea that creating a fake reality of nothing but lesbians who dont have to worry about sexuality being a way to normalize it seems not entirely sound.

I meant more treating 2 girls falling in love and dating as something normal, just like het story, skipping the whole "b-but we're both girls" and worrying w/e other person is a lesbian or not. Of course I don't say we should ignore sexuality all together, but character not even batting a eye at the idea would be a nice step. Basically the romance itself should be the focus, not that they're 2 girls dating. Also I believe I said it here and in other places many times, but I understand homophobia and lack of acceptance is still a real and big issue irl, so I understand why many stories where it's pretty much present still exist, but what I'm simply saying I want to see a bit more variety than that. Just like we used to only have all those one-sided crushes stories with unhappy endings. Escapism is one of main functions of fiction after all.

I see, maybe I was too hasty and didn't fully understand you. Certainly, the ideal type of yuri would be something where sexuality is established, but not treated as a major issue. If a girl is het she is het, if she is lesbian or bi then it is not something to worry about either. Of course that will not change that falling for heterosexual women is the same old curse all lesbians have to deal with or that discovering your sexuality can be a complex process. If you asked some of my friends they would tell you that finding a lesbian girlfriend as a concept in itself is escapism....haha.

Personally when it comes to the complete erasure of homophobia or a majorly gay cast being believable, I prefer fantasy or sci-fi settings. I forgot who said it, but the phrase was about how nobody cares about your sexuality in a universe full of weird aliens to fornicate with. I suppose the same applies to fantasy settings with monstergirls~

Definitely. As far as I am aware, originally tsundere meant to be more of a variant of kuudere. Where she starts antagonistic towards MC, showing hostility, but with time, she gets closer to them and start showing more of her loving side, until it'd disappear completely.

Honestly, that initial impression reminds me more of the Rivals/Enemies to Lovers trope, which I don't think anybody dislikes, despite the thread we are in.

When it comes to tsunderes I prefer the more sophisticated kind that will rely on wit and sarcasm rather than rapid fire "Baka" volleys and then inevitably break her sardonic mask from embarrassment when things veer off their predictions. A good example would be Erika Yaegaki from the Flowers visual novel series or Rin Tohsaka from Fate/Stay Night to a lesser degree.

In the case of tsunderes as central characters, it's encoded in the character type that they're going to change, and almost certainly for the better. With AnoKiss, readers waited almost 5 years to get to the point in the story that we all knew was coming from the first few chapters, and what was a series of often painful emotional struggles for Shiramine were delightful to read because we were shown all along how thoroughly she was hooked on Kurosawa.

Ah... I was actually not refering to Shiramine, whose issues I think were actually a bit more earthbound than mere tsundere tendencies, at least later on. I was specifically thinking of the student council pair, who for some unfathomable reason, did NOT become mushy lovers even after their arc was completed. It was a severe case of mutual tsundere at that, highly volatile and incurable. At least the family seemed happy marrying their daughter off to another girl.

last edited at Jan 9, 2022 5:39PM

As I said before, I wish we would get more stories like that, because it's great way to normalize homosexuality and make it feel like something natural and common.

Although I certainly enjoy this type of storytelling as it gets rid of baggage that may be in the way of what the author actually wants to focus on, I can also understand the opposite stance. Many yuri readers feel that this nearly too fantastical wish fulfillment yuri is a detriment to the awarenss of real LGBT struggles. So, while I ironically just advocated for it, the idea that creating a fake reality of nothing but lesbians who dont have to worry about sexuality being a way to normalize it seems not entirely sound.

This is why the compromise you seem to be less favorable of (an improbable amount and proximity of lesbians, but in a non-het-quarantined world) would probably be more apt at normalizing homosexuality while also dealing with such issues. If the author wants to focus on discovering ones sexuality without having to deal with heterosexual interference, then that is certainly just as viable to me.

I think all of it is good in its own way if done right.

A real person who can't express affection or can only send contradictory emotional signals may well end up having serious problems with relationships and be in need of long-term psychological counseling.

In fiction, where the audience can be given access to a character's feelings that they may not even have themselves, tsunderes are ready-made instruments for character development, as the audience anticipates the pleasure of the tsundere eventually acknowledging their feelings or when the tsun facade becomes evident to all the other characters.

For me, people who in real life I wouldn't want within 100 yards of me can be absolute catnip as a tsundere character.

Ah yes, the old discovery that if a tsundere were to appear in real life she would simply be an emotionally maladjusted or even bipolar woman. As you say, the knowledge of motivation, inner turmoil and the visible otherwise hidden dere side are rather helpful in avoiding the bipolar judgement. Sometimes.

I still believe there are variations to the tsundere tag that are important, for not every tsundere is made equal. Some are merely dishonest about their feelings, while others are more or less violent abusers. Only the unfathomable power of gag manga can make domestic violence seem adorable. I definitely prefer the former, because shielding ones embarrassment behind denial or deflections is so wonderfully... human. Mild tsundere has a weaker gap effect, but also a more consistent sweetness.

@Blastaar
Mhm, I suppose the mark of a good writer is how well they can trim every superfluous element from their story, rather than finding ways to perfectly replicate every aspect of life that the reader will experience on the daily themselves. Realism on need-to-show basis.

---

Incidentally one of my favorite yuri manga of all time is AnoKiss (A kiss and a white lily for her dearest girl), a story which revels in the exact trope in question. I would even go so far as to say it is one of the worst "offenders" I've ever seen as the all-girls school in question may as well be rebranded as the all-sapphic academy. But nobody I have ever talked to about it found issue with the fact that, indeed, every girl with even a single panel of screentime is a clam connoisseur.

And I am certain this is because sexuality is actually almost a non-factor to the couples, believe it or not. They struggle, worry and deal with real issues, but all of them are unrelated to being lesbian. Whether it be demanding parents, academic scores, future aspirations, polyamory, a rekindling of an old flame or simply being too tsundere for their own good (yes this is a real issue too I am sure). Realism is not about perfectly recreating reality, but about being relatable to the reader's reality to a degree. And as opposed to what I often read in comments sections, I do not need to relate to every aspect of a character to find them relatable. I can relate to their struggles even if they dont also struggle with other things that happen to me, lest I would demand every manga include a traumatic dentist scene at least once.

last edited at Jan 9, 2022 4:00PM