I suspect the one-sided energy will soon find a path of least resistance. A seuqel from the opposite perspective would be a charming idea, I believe. Train encounters can be rather fascinating.

After re-readig FLOWERS, specifically Printemps and Été, for the second time, I'm finally finished with Automne.

Let me put it this way in a relatively concise manner.

Printemps had crushed my soul into tiny shards and ripped my heart into thousands of bloody shreds.
Ete had made my soul whole again and mended my heart almost completely, even if some of the remaining scars were still aching.
...And Automne did those things multiple times over the course of 30 hours of me reading it.

What a masterpiece. Shimizu Hatsumi had absolutely outdid herself, and went above and beyond with deep, nuanced characterizations and painfully intimate introspections. I bow down in pure awe.

PSA: Even if the humankind and all of its' legacy will fall due to all-out nuclear war or massive CME hitting the Earth...Chidorika must be protected no matter the cost. One cannot, in good conscience, objectively and logically prove that there's anything more worthy of preserving in the observable universe.

Honestly, one of the most emotionally big moments for me was something as small as Erika encouraging Yuzu before the choir recital (while probably reminiscing about her very own special performance). It was as if she was talking directly to me, so deeply I was engrossed in Yuzuriha's inner world. It felt like an astonishingly intense surge of warmth, a blindingly powerful wave of bliss and exaltation was shivering through my whole body at this moment, with the aftershock that had been lingering for a few minutes. Sounds a bit much, probably, but I don't know how else to put those sensations into words without relying on dramatics. I myself was genuinely taken aback by sheer rawness of this experience.

Honestly, what the actual fuck is this game as a whole even.

Yes, someone who has experienced the bliss and pain of the FLOWERS series! I am so glad to see someone who appreciates these outstanding works! Hiver cannnot come soon enough, so we may finally be rid of the eternal cliffhanger of Printemps~

EriChido/Chidorika (honestly the order seems neary irrelevant for these two, they are on equal footing) is the wholesome and perfect relationship in a drama series that you would not expect to last, but shockingly (and to my great delight) they stick around for the other chapters and are a stable and gratifying presence that tells us, yes, relationships can work out and don't require immense sacrifices all the time (looking at you Yuzuriha).

This may be entirely shameless on my part, but I created a thread specifically for Yuri Visual Novel recommendations. I listed the FLOWERS series, naturally, but if you would take the time to write a proper recommendation for them I would be infinitely grateful. Do not worry about structure or anything, just your own words would be more than enough. Though please do not feel obliged to indulge me.
https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/19616-yuri-visual-novel-recommendation-thread

That is not the the Epilogue I read on Mangadex. The one I read was a lot longer and involved far more kissing.
Or was that an original doujin drawn by the actual author? I can't rightly remember.

Regardless a very cute ending to the series. More kissing is always welcome.

last edited at Jan 18, 2022 12:50AM

The tiny reaper (167cm) gettting crushed by the galaxy sized giant (169cm).

This double entendre may get lost one most people.

Violet? But Vi stands for Violence. And Vicious. And Victory.

Magical girl with a magical tongue. Momo probably tastes like peaches.

Reine can't live without Moona's feet anymore. Make of that information what you will.

Were you to remove Romeo from Romeo&Juliet, there would only be Juliet left. And with just Juliet there is no drama and no tragedy. So adding another Juliet will then double the happiness and the sadness spared. Juliet&Juliet is the ideal that was too revolutionary even for Shakespear. My kind of love story.

last edited at Jan 13, 2022 11:05AM

Sounds like you're more or less talking about 'notice me senpai!' which is definitely... quintessentially Japanese. Generally speaking though I think nothing is really supposed to come out of those kind of infatuations... senpai typically doesn't notice and the kouhai moves on to a better match. Though it does play out awkwardly in yuri.

I'm not talking about that meme/trope, although it may be an adjacent issue to it. The "senpai notice me" trope is usually for background characters or minor side-characters who obviously have no chance with their target of affection.

I am talking about actual love interests, mostly main characters. It is very common for a girl to constantly internally demand that her crush realizes she is in love with them. She will go out of her way to give extreme hints or set up a romantic situation, but never actually confess, just hoping the other party will somehow get it and maybe confess first. The entitled mental process is really exasperating. It's not even the "I will make you fall for me!" trope, because that one would at least be more proactive.
An even worse variation was mentioned above, where the girl is in a bad limbo relationship and doesn't speak up, but is blaming the other party for not noticing. All these lack of communication tropes are alike.

Also I can't tell why you think this awkward trope is more awkward in Yuri. They are the same level of pointless in any genre.

Licentious Lantern posted:

Lack of communication in general. When one of the two (or both) just makes assumptions and never talks anything out.

I totally agree, but I feel this one more than anything is just writers clutch. In vast majority of stories, if characters would just talk things out, you'd have no story.

In this particular case the lack of communication I was talking about was really related to the inability to express emotions. Unable to confess and expecting the other party to just figure it out. The partner who just assumes they are in a certain type of relationship because they feel that's how it is etc. I think these are less writer's crutches and just cultural issues. I never see this kind of writing outside of Japanese media.

Of course the girl who pines for her crush but never confesses is a common enough trope everywhere, usually it's a matter of insecurity about whether they will reciprocate or fear that it may ruin their relationship (those are also common enough in Japanese romance). But only in Japanese media do I see the entitlement of the characters to expect the other party to have to pick up the hints and figure out that the girl is in love with them. This confusingly asinine writing where a character makes incredibly complicated plans for the other party to realize they are in love with them... without actually just saying it. Not only does this make the chances of getting to the point incredibly slim, it also leaves open room for the love interest to actually figure it out, but stay quiet about it due to uncertainty or other reasons.

Both those cases of lacking communication, I believe, are based on the passivity of Japanese society. Expressing oneself, talking about feelings, approaching the opposite sex (it's even worse for homosexuals obviously) are all highly discouraged in Japan. Furthermore there is an inherent ideal that a man has to confess, so obviously Shoujo manga will push this trope into overdrive and Yuri manga are left with two female love interests who both cannot take initiative.

last edited at Jan 11, 2022 9:18PM

To put this matter aside, I also got a trope that I really dislike, of which I was reminded while reading "The Real Momoka". I also mentioned it there, but I really hate those stories where a character is in an unsatisfactory to them relationship, where they're basically just going along with whatever rules the other person has set and are like, "I really hate this/her, but it's too late, she's already got me under her spell" or some other stupid excuse. It annoys the hell out of me. This usually involves the other partner being a player, more often than not bisexual, who openly fools around with other people.

Another variation of this is when the two characters are not in a relationship and are simply friends, with one of them secretly being on love with the other, and constantly having to hear her friend's stories of all the men she's "seduced". And just going "God, she's so terrible, but I'm also one of her victims". It exasperates me.

I understand you completely here. It is one of the things I dislike immensely as well. Though that particular story you bring up is interesting in so far that it was a misunderstanding mostly. It rarely turns out that well.

Honestly, that story brought up the overarching issue for me that goes along right with that. Lack of communication in general. When one of the two (or both) just makes assumptions and never talks anything out. This can go both ways. The total victim mentality of "Why do you not understand my feelings? Take a hint!" even though she never actually voices said feelings is simply attrocious. Similarily the other party assuming that not spelling anything out is good enough, because obviously she gets that you love her and take it seriously even though you never established that... Ugh.

This mostly goes along with wet towel protagonists who don't have the mental strength to confess or to ever say how they feel. It's a cheap attempt at drawing up Angst. It's one thing to have conflicted feelings before a realization or having genuine worries about ruining something. It's another to suffer through a bad situation for absolutely no reason just because you expect the other party to mindread.

^It must happen any day now. We know they had their first sexual experience sometime after they graduated high school due to the anime novels, but at that point kissing has already become normal for them. So that only leaves about 1 year of room for them to have their first kiss.
Until then you will have to make do with fanfiction I suppose haha.

last edited at Jan 11, 2022 5:37AM

If the French know one thing, it is not to waste good wine. Also something about a particular kind of kiss, but the name eludes me right now...

EDIT: also, if anyone knows why Iroha is talking about 「ラッピング」, i'd love to know.

Is it not [wrapping] rather than [rapping]? I confess I was also very confused when the translation said rap.

I am not always a fan of pairing the spares, but I think Izumi has suffered enough and Iroha has been one of the most positive influences in her life. I don't think they have all that much in common, but this manga has proven time and again that opposites attract and that even just trying to go a bit towards each other's interests can improve a bond considerably. Also now the option of double dates has opened up, which is far better than having two third wheels!

It has to be said, this manga always has really strong crying scenes. And plenty of them to boot. The way characters always show all their emotions is definitely a strength of the work and one of the most memorable parts.

At this point there's been like 6 separate instances in which some variation of "let's stop" or "let's agree to disagree" was posted. So, let's stop already. Thanks.

When I decided to end the conversation that is it from my side, I guarantee it.
Still, it would be nice if the mods could keep an eye on @strayalive. They seem excessively hostile or disparaging in every conversation they had in this thread.

But thanks for calling me stupid...? lol

For the record, I was just interested in the talk about tsunderes and himederes. After all, we are in a discussion about tropes, not one about IFTV, so I don't see why openly discussing the plot should have been expected. Though I can also understand why you might have thought it was okay.

Was the hyperbole really necessary? I haven't questioned your intelligence at all.
To me it is obvious not to read conversations that involve series I haven't finished, this is why I was surprised by your perspective. Perhaps we are simply used to different conversational ettiquette. The internet is not exactly graceful about such matters, so I was trying to impart my own advice on the two-way caution system.

I can at least understand that a first post could catch you off-guard and it would certainly be unfortunate if there were spoilers in it, that would be very careless of the poster indeed. It's just that in this case we only brought in spoilers later on, so by that point I was certain no manga-only would continue reading it.

I'm glad the spoilers were mild enough not to affect you at least. Apologies nontheless.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:41PM

I love how people are just casually discussing "Claire's downfall" here, as if that wouldn't be a spoiler to people still unfamiliar with the story. The popularity of a work does not warrant openly discussing important plot elements in unrelated threads.

Is IFTV popular? I wasn't even aware. In fact the reason I did not even consider this an issue is that it would be asinine for people seeing us discuss a series they havent completed yet to read the conversation in the first place. I won't make excuses like saying that it should be obvious that a story about a villainess has a negative intended outcome for the villainess (whether this comes true or not), but at least some caution around unfinished works should be applied.

I will add spoiler tags, but please, try to be more careful as well. It's easier for everyone if both sides are cautious.

---

I mean... you're the one who made it an issue in the first place.

....I did not. You were the one who brought up that you read it all and that I am probably manga reader who isn't aware of where the plot goes yet as an argument. I merely tried to convey that we are on the same level of insight here and that the discussion thus has no such limitations.

Claire being evil or not also is of no concern to whether she is tsundere or himedere. Neither give any hint towards the moral alignment of a character. There are villains and heroes who are tsundere or himedere. Obviously IFTV is a story trying hard to subvert the villainess trope. Nobody in the story is stereotypically evil.

Okay now you're moving goalposts. According to your original premise she couldn't be himedere because she's a villainess.

I never said that. I said a himedere is not a villainess by default and vice versa. In fact I said a villainess can be a himedere, but it's not somehow a requirement. I am sorry, you seem to have lost the thread of the conversation a few times now. I implore you to carefully read my posts.

Let me sum up the major difference between the two tropes in a neat bow:
Himedere: "You are my obedient dog and if you act the way I want I will reward you with my love."

Um... yeah that's called a sadist, not a himedere. A himedere is mostly just obsessed with their own status, though there is a decent amount of overlap between himedere, tsundere, and sadist.

Not exactly. The flaunting of status, the desire for control over the partner and the direct expression of ownership are all himedere traits. They are not traditionally tsundere traits. Sadism is a different aspect altogether, though they can mix.
A himedere will compensate a love interest with affection if they show reverence or suitably impress them. This can be viewed as sadistic at times, but in most cases it actually is just dominance.

You see where the overlap may lie between the two and why you got confused. You most likely believe that this is also a himedere trope: "How could I ever love a commoner?!"
But that is just a tsundere oujo-sama type actually. A himedere is not so much concerned with denying her feelings as to show her superiority alongside them.

I think you're just gaslighting me at this point. Claire has the ringcurls, the laugh, the obsession with her own nobility, but I'm wrong (and apparently shallow?) for believing my own eyes that she's himedere. Whatever, the belligerence isn't helping your case.

....you are very unpleasant to converse with. I have been trying my hardest to reply objectively. I genuinly am trying to explain to you why your viewpoint might be off. Ring-curls and the ojou-sama laugh are exactly that... ojou-sama traits. An ojou-sama is not a himedere by default. In fact they mostly aren't. An ojou-sama can be anything from a tsundere to a kuudere or yandere. And yes, even a himedere. But you seem to purposely avoid every reason I gave you for why Claire is a typical tsundere.

I fear I cannot get through to you, so this will be my last response.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:16PM

SPOILERS

No, I myself have read all three volumes of the LN and own them physically. I am quite aware of what happens and why.

That's nice but the entire series has been fantranslated (maybe 6 volumes worth in total) as well as the 18+ "First Night" chapter (if you're feeling frisky) and the retelling told from Claire's perspective (She's Pretty Cheeky for a Commoner) is ongoing.

And this is relevant how? Are you trying to one-up me with some strange idea of superior knowledge? The funny thing is that I read the fan translation first and only afterwards read the official translations. Claire is already past her tsundere phase by the end of volume 2.

Himedere and the "villainess" archetype are not synonymous either. A himedere actually has nothing to do with it, aside from the fact that a villainess archetype can also be a himedere. Claire is not one such case. Her downfall is unrelated to himedere archetypes and her falling in love with Rei happens before the downfall anyway. The fact that you are trying to link them weakens your argument.

I mean... its a matter of demographics. There's shoujo magical girl series as well as seinen magical girl series, with different characterizations in each but still recognizable to anyone and everyone as magical girls. There's no reason for a villainess in an otome game to really show her dere side, but in a galge you want her to be desirable or redeemable even if she is evil.

This paragraph said actually nothing. What "demographics" are involved here? Why is this relevant to my point? A himedere archetype is very well defined regardless of genre. Claire does not fit into it. Period.

Claire really isn't evil (or tsun) as much as proud, so I still think himedere fits her best... but I'm also not trying to spoil people who are manga only so this isn't the place for this debate, either. Agree to disagree, for now.

Claire being evil or not also is of no concern to whether she is tsundere or himedere. Neither give any hint towards the moral alignment of a character. There are villains and heroes who are tsundere or himedere. Obviously IFTV is a story trying hard to subvert the villainess trope. Nobody in the story is stereotypically evil.
Pride also does not make you a himedere. There are plenty of proud tsunderes, in fact pride is one of the primary motivations for many tsunderes to not be honest about their feelings. Admitting to liking the protagonist is often seen as a loss.

Let me sum up the major difference between the two tropes in a neat bow:
Himedere: "You are my obedient dog and if you act the way I want I will reward you with my love."
Tsundere: "Y-you aren't worth my time, how could I ever love you?!"

You see where the overlap may lie between the two and why you got confused. You most likely believe that this is also a himedere trope: "How could I ever love a commoner?!"
But that is just a tsundere oujo-sama type actually. A himedere is not so much concerned with denying her feelings as to show her superiority alongside them.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:57PM

SPOILERS

Eh... its a bit more complicated. Himedere is the word you're looking for. (Oujidere for males)

I've actually read the entire LN, though I'm still behind on Cheeky for a Commoner, and I'm also a VN and RPG nerd so I'm relatively familiar with her archetype. I actually really like the archetype - Natal March is one of my favorites - but even in galge her type isn't necessarily romanceable... you've got a better shot with the biological little sister. They definitely are similar to classic tsundere but aside from whatever insecurities and trauma made them an asshole there's a fall from grace that's almost guaranteed, and even if you're only following the manga you can tell Rei is trying to cushion Claire from that fall. Generally speaking characters like that take enough critical hits to their identity to where no matter how in love they are they need some time to themselves before pursuing a relationship. If you follow popular anime Eris Boreas Greyrat is a somewhat decent example of what I'm talking about.

No, I myself have read all three volumes of the LN and own them physically. I am quite aware of what happens and why.
You are still completely wrong. A himedere is a girl that wants to be treated with reverence or like royalty by their target of affection, but being a tsundere about her love is not a factor at all. A himedere may be dismissive of those she considers of lower standing, but in regards to love that usually manifests in a desire for possessiveness and control, not tsundere tropes.
Himedere and the "villainess" archetype are not synonymous either. A himedere actually has nothing to do with it, aside from the fact that a villainess archetype can also be a himedere. Claire is not one such case. Her downfall is unrelated to himedere archetypes and her falling in love with Rei happens before the downfall anyway. The fact that you are trying to link them weakens your argument.

Claire is a straightforward tsundere. The layer of noble vs. commoner is her incentive for initially "disliking" or belittling Rei, but the reason she is a tsundere is her inability to face up to her romantic interest in Rei, however she may internally justify it. She gets wildly embarrassed when Rei flirts with her, she is dishonest about her motivations when she is kind to Rei, she shows cute moments at times of vulnerability, but quickly regresses when she becomes aware of her honesty.

Claire is a quintessential classic tsundere, with the benefit of being written in current times and thus the author had the insight to make her more agreeable and her character development natural. I think what had you confused here is that Claire accepting her romantic feelings and becoming more politically aware before the downfall of her family happened in the same gradual line.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:56PM

Coming back every couple months to a manga you don't like just to point out you still don't like it sounds like trolling to me.

Though I completely agree that there is no point in simply coming to a comments section to hate on a work, I believe it is not altogether as absurd to keep reading something you dislike. To analyze and take apart what doesnt work and why you cannot bring yourself to like it is essential in dealing with media. Of course just repeating the same critcism every chapter lacks value... even moreso if what you say has been objectively refuted.

I believe there are things we can avoid outright (for example, I do not come to Dynasty to read all the Het works that keep popping up for some reason), but there are also things that may be more inside our comfort zones, yet fail to connect properly.

A Room For Two has a lot of aspects that can be frustrating, but there is also very little like it out there, so I'm not surprised that people with less favorable impressions keep coming back to see how it changes, even with its deliberately slow pace (note: Not slow in terms of time moving. Just how has it already been 7 years for them?!).

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 3:23AM

I don't follow many of those series and others I just sort of disagree with... Claire Francois is more of an ojou type than a tsundere for example... she's Luviagelita Edelfelt, not Tohsaka. I never said they were nonexistent, either, just that there weren't many that seemed noteworthy or memorable in yuri works.

I do not subscribe to either "classic" or "modern" tsunderes being more prevalent, as the trope is so overused it has infinite variations across media. This, however, is completely incorrect. Claire is a classical tsundere archetype especially once Rei manages to worm her way into her life properly. At first she is supposed to be the villainness, the bully, but quickly it's basically Rei who is bullying her with affection, which Claire does not respond to well. She has strongly negative reactions without the dere in the early chapters, but very quickly more and more dere sneaks in there, while she still acts in abject denial of her growing feelings.

The further the arcs go, the more Claire drops her tsun. She may have one of the most clean progressions as far as tsunderes go. If you get hung up on the superficial appearances like this, then I am not sure if your judgement towards tsunderes is very well thought out.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:46AM

I would actually find a "She never returns to the present" timeline to be pretty brave and novel, though. I feel bad for future Seto, though.

That is assuming future Seto still exists if that was the ending they were going for though, which I think is not necessarily true. Unless this is an Avengers Endgame type time travel where altering the past simply creates a new split timeline, in which case it would definitely be horrible for future Seto. Can you really imagine though that this author was going for something like that?

That's why I specified "central characters" who are given full development--those two remind me of the bitter old married couples I see shopping in stores, where they're snipping at each other the whole time about how whatever the other one's doing is wrong. Something's keeping the two of them together, but we can't see what.

And to me that was the second least effective/interesting couple in the entire series, with only the cosplayers edging them out for first place.

I'd almost say that the two-tsundere pair can rarely work (again, real genius can do almost anything) because without a foil character the pairing just reinforces the hostility and aggression of the character type rather than the possibility for change.

Oh, what a shame. I actually like them a lot. If they had gotten a proper resolution instead of just being stamped off as finished after their volume was done I'd have even put them into my top 3 pairings. There was something very interesting about their dynamic and they were both very likable in their own way. All I really needed was a reciprocated confession and some more kissing. The cosplay couple was also effective in telling a story that is very rare in yuri... old flames getting back together. Breaking up and finding a new girlfriend is already rare enough as it is, but this was really something else. I liked them a lot.
The only pairing that did absolutely not work for me was the polyamory trio. That may just be because I don't think Canno understand polyamory (her next work about another poly triangle proved that it wasnt just growing pains sadly, she really does not do well with the theme). Also the inability to commit on the aunt/niece pair made me wonder what exactly Canno's threshholds are...

Ahem, anyway, double tsundere, yes. It is a rare and complicated affair, but actually one I am fascinated by. There is 5 seconds until a witch falls in love which comes close to that concept and nails it completely, especially with its sequel. Though again, it has that enemies to lovers aspect to it, which I suppose justifies the tsun side of things far more. Maybe there is something to that.

It's not strictly a yuri trope, but you know what else I don't like? Heart-shaped pupils.

You must have accidentally overlooked this masterpiece.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/hana_ni_arashi_ch16#10

last edited at Jan 9, 2022 6:22PM