This chapter was gold, gold, pure gold!! Mayoi the lady killer and the interactions between her and the debate club members are just great, it's like seeing two different series interact, like cameos lol

You can give her as many wacky reactions you want, I will never like Kaoru. She's been a trash-human basically this entire manga and no amount of character growth or goofy faces is going to fix that for me.

Who hurt you bro?

They are NOT wrong though- anyone who thinks otherwise must be in denial imo.

That said, it's been a while and she doesn't seem to be the same person anymore and isn't up to her old tricks -
so while I won't ever trust her 100% or like her much, I like seeing her grow and move on and hope mask is good for her.

People can change - i'd rather she became a better person than not and she deserves a chance at least.

But I can also see why some people dont want anything to do with her - and I can't fault that.

last edited at Jul 31, 2023 7:30AM

They are NOT wrong though- anyone who thinks otherwise must be in denial imo.

That said, it's been a while and she doesn't seem to be the same person anymore and isn't up to her old tricks -
so while I won't ever trust her 100% or like her much, I like seeing her grow and move on and hope mask is good for her.

People can change - i'd rather she became a better person than not and she deserves a chance at least.

But I can also see why some people dont want anything to do with her - and I can't fault that.

My issue with Kaoru is that she was introduced as a very manipulative, self-centered character. Which is fine, not every character needs to be puppydogs and butterflies and rainbows.

But if the character is manipulative and deceitful and unable to give a shit about anybody but themselves, that's how I'm going to interpret her words and her actions. So, for example, when she told Honoka that she wished for Honoka to become a mangaka, I didn't believe it. I just figured it was more of the same lying manipulation. She was trying to make Honoka feel bad for treating her like a lying, manipulative bitch.

However, reading the thread, I saw many people hold that moment up as one of her positive moments. They clearly perceived that declaration as being sincere and honest. They were picking up on some signal I didn't see, and still don't. And in general, I could never figure out when Kaoru was being sincere this time, as opposed to all the other times when she wasn't.

When she started interacting with Mask, though, it became much more obvious when Kaoru was being sincere, because Mask wasn't giving her any other choice. Manipulative insincerity doesn't work on Mask, because Mask is just socially awkward enough to call Kaoru on her bullshit directly, in a way that doesn't leave Kaoru any wiggle room. So I am really enjoying their interactions.

There's also the fact that the comic overall has shifted in tone over the past 13 years. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Chapter 1 Ayano was straight-up groping Miyoshi's tits in the middle of class without any hint of embarrassment, while Chapter 274 Ayano goes beet-red at the mere glimpse of Miyoshi's bra and cleavage. I think it's safe to say that whatever image Kishi has in his head for Kaoru's personality now, it's probably not quite the cold-hearted manipulative ice queen she was in the early chapters.

last edited at Jul 31, 2023 9:45AM

Can't say I'll ever be crazy about Kaoru as a character either, even at this point. I like seeing her grow and redeem herself a little though. She's a teenager in the end, I knew quite a few mean spirited people in high school who ended up much better as adults.

Some people forgive any crap from their heroes/idols/important/rich people, no matter what they do, and the opposite is that some people never forgive the past, real or fictional persons, no matter what happens, and that removes a big incentive for people to change.

This isn't a deep observation, everything (tm) just sucks balls through a thin tube right now in my head.

last edited at Jul 31, 2023 11:54AM

Also I kind of wish that earlier chapters to... whatever chapter later on just didn't exist. Not because of "moral" issues but because they break the tone of these characters so much and still are sort of "canonically" in there.

Some people really forget that thes eare just high school students. Kaoru was an asshole in the past true. But you cant tell me that is the only side of the character you see now after seeing her with her sister and the manga club.

I mean what kind of punishment would you want for her to redeem her in your eyes, I am genuinely curious.

Sure find Mask intoxicating, but she's engineering her own betrayal. Sit on petard, light fuse, hear load report.

jfc she's a work of fiction, she has no agency or internal world beyond what the author gives her. Treating a construct the way you would an actual person's actions is literally insane. Relating to or disliking a character is one thing, but not 'trusting' them or acting like they have a real past or internal consistency beyond the whims of the author is ridiculous.

Some of y'all really need to touch grass.

Some people really forget that thes eare just high school students. Kaoru was an asshole in the past true. But you cant tell me that is the only side of the character you see now after seeing her with her sister and the manga club.

I mean what kind of punishment would you want for her to redeem her in your eyes, I am genuinely curious.

When people do something wrong, I find the biggest thing for me is if they say they're sorry. With some sincerity, as in, they have figured out what they did was wrong and they will try not to do it again.

I am finding this arc interesting, and I'm willing to accept that in many years of telling this story, the way the characters are defined in the author's eyes has shifted some. Sometimes, even though that's for me the ideal, you can't really make a claim stick that a character has really been given a consistent personality. But I will say I think that's a failure in the writing, particularly since not nearly as much time has passed for the characters. I suppose it's not impossible for people to just sort of organically become less bitchy as their hormones surge a bit differently, without any real psychological events or reflection, but it doesn't make for particularly convincing writing. In this case I guess it's just part and parcel of the whole thing gradually getting a softer edge.

last edited at Jul 31, 2023 10:11PM

jfc she's a work of fiction, she has no agency or internal world beyond what the author gives her. Treating a construct the way you would an actual person's actions is literally insane

No it isn't, and really that's a stupid claim. Fictional characters are intended to be, as best the writer can manage, replications of real people. And while on one hand, they inevitably lack a lot of the features that real people have, on the other hand you can't ever experience most of those aspects of real people anyway. We constantly make judgments about people purely on the basis of our friends or co-workers talking about them, even though our experience of those people is less in-depth than our experience of most fictional people we bother to form judgments about. I have given successful romance and divorce advice on the basis of this sort of second hand impression, effectively a fictional account by someone who isn't even a fiction writer.
So no, forming opinions about fictional people as if they were real is what you are supposed to do. It would be idiotic to read fiction and spend your whole time going "Well this is an interesting construct that has nothing to do with creating anything you could call an actual personality"--totally drains the point out of reading a story. It actually frustrates me quite a lot that I keep seeing people say this nonsense. What do you think someone telling a story is DOING, anyway?

jfc she's a work of fiction,

This person broke the code guys.

Some people really forget that these are just high school students. Kaoru was an asshole in the past true. But you cant tell me that is the only side of the character you see now after seeing her with her sister and the manga club.

I mean what kind of punishment would you want for her to redeem her in your eyes, I am genuinely curious.

I don't need a punishment. If she's meant to be a more sympathetic character now than she was when she was introduced, I'm fine with that. I'm quite happy watching Mask run circles around her.

But outside of her interactions with Mask, I still don't see any clear and unambiguous signals which indicate when she's being honest and sincere vs. when she's being manipulative. I mean, it's not like she's not trying to be just as manipulative with Mask as she is with everybody else. She's just failing spectacularly.

When people do something wrong, I find the biggest thing for me is if they say they're sorry. With some sincerity, as in, they have figured out what they did was wrong and they will try not to do it again.

I agree in the real life sense, but would this make Kaoru a better character in a manga, and more importantly, since the whole reason some people dislike her is "dishonesty and manipulation", do you really think any kind of apology would not just be seen as those things anyway.

While I find the idea of eternal vindictiveness tiring, especially for someone who isn't even real, I find myself agreeing with people who say they can't trust Kaoru. One extremely necessary part of a redemption story is the breakdown of the character to be redeemed. The breakdown moment, where they're at their lowest and realize the way they do things isn't right, is essential for convincing the reader that they've actually learned something. This series has been going on for so long, with such time between chapters, I honestly can't remember if Kaoru even had such a moment. If she did, and people just aren't recalling it, please feel free to link the chapter.

Omg how noice! Mayoi friendzoned the annoying one. Well done!

"You are indeed the first friend I have made in a long while."

Liar!
She made two friends and an acquaintance just the other day!

Haha glad I'm not the only one who remembers that chapter!
Mayoi you big fibber!

DumShork posted:

While I find the idea of eternal vindictiveness tiring, especially for someone who isn't even real, I find myself agreeing with people who say they can't trust Kaoru. One extremely necessary part of a redemption story is the breakdown of the character to be redeemed. The breakdown moment, where they're at their lowest and realize the way they do things isn't right, is essential for convincing the reader that they've actually learned something. This series has been going on for so long, with such time between chapters, I honestly can't remember if Kaoru even had such a moment. If she did, and people just aren't recalling it, please feel free to link the chapter.

It was basically every chapter with Her and Shizuka in which Kaoru told her not to hurt Mio, because they knew they wanted different things in a relatiship (Shizuka was hurt to see Kaoru interested in one person only when that is what she wanted for herself, Kaoru wanting to be able to express her feelings freely - as in being interested in more than one person at the time).

i see so much hate towards KaoKao... i am aware of what she had done in the past but can't we enjoy KaoMayo without judging her because of her past actions..?

So no, forming opinions about fictional people as if they were real is what you are supposed to do

we should form opinions about fictional characters as if they were work of fiction. Yes, they simulate real life human experience but an enjoyable Character / good character is not the same as a real life good person/ enjoyable person. We need antagonists, we need villians, we need fictional characters that manipulate, that we cant trust, that we disagree with so that the story becomes interesting, so that there is room for development and conflict and to keep us on our toes. So yes, you can like kaokao for her deceptive skills and selfish motivations because they further the story. I happen to enjoy bullies in stories a lot and even more dynamics with other characters that get the upper hand over them. i dont need them redeemed. I enjoy them for all the toxic traits, i would never like in a real life person. -> these traits in real life people hurt actual people and have real consequences. To use the same energy and moral ground to judge a fictional character would be excessively exhausting for me. I'd rather accept that this character exists in this story or just stop reading the story if it would actually trigger negative emotions that hurt my mental health.

Like isnt it a bit exhausting to take everything personally that a fictional character did?
For me personally, I dont think KaoKao is done super great, maybe because over the years things shift and you lose consistency. But then i'll just enjoy the parts without thinking too deep about everything that happened before. And the latest chapter was super nice!

jfc she's a work of fiction, she has no agency or internal world beyond what the author gives her. Treating a construct the way you would an actual person's actions is literally insane. Relating to or disliking a character is one thing, but not 'trusting' them or acting like they have a real past or internal consistency beyond the whims of the author is ridiculous.

Some of y'all really need to touch grass.

You have no imagination or emotions? if we like fiction in manga or books it's good because we can imagine the story, as well as the interactions, if this is not your case what is your interest in the media?
Then the question about liking or not kaoru is not the subject, it is those who hate her who leave me doubtful, what is the point of reading a chapter on a character you don't like and systematically coming to say "I don't like kaoru" ? if everyone does the same on all the characters of all the manga, it risks being a nest to fight. I don't like brown no matter what, but that's not why I'm going to go into all the discussion threads of people who like or don't have an opinion on this color. It's counterproductive.

i see so much hate towards KaoKao... i am aware of what she had done in the past but can't we enjoy KaoMayo without judging her because of her past actions..?

It's a minority, in all the polls done on twitter (x) of kishi mask and kaoru are among the favorites.And hey, we have the impression that kaoru murdered someone ^^ some people would still have to take a step back, his rest of the teenagers and god knows that in high schools it's not just kiss kiss and tenderness as we see on this fiction.
But I join you this duo brings a lot of fun and surprises, it's even difficult each time to know how their meetings will evolve. It seems that mask decided to really make kaoru a close person, giving her the honor of a kaokao...
Even kaoru who is usually impatient seems to have understood that she will not achieve anything with mask without changing and not rushing things, her reaction when mayoi takes off her mask shows that she is completely still under the spell .

we should form opinions about fictional characters as if they were work of fiction. Yes, they simulate real life human experience but an enjoyable Character / good character is not the same as a real life good person/ enjoyable person.

This is a facile argument. Characters are analyzed on multiple axes. We are not in any way obligated to analyze every character purely on the dispassionate intellectual basis of how well or how poorly the character works within a piece of fiction. Especially since this isn't academia and nobody here is doing anything other than giving their thoughts about a work like a neighborhood book club.

Indeed, part of analyzing how well or how poorly a character works within a piece of fiction involves the emotional reactions that character produces within the audience. Dolores Umbridge was a fantastic villain who expertly served her specific literary purpose within Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. And part of the reason she worked so well is because people absolutely hated her. She provoked a strong emotional response within the audience, and that is usually the sign of a well-written character. If she had been a bland character to whom people were mostly indifferent, she wouldn't have worked nearly as well.

So the idea that we can't react to a character as though they were a real person is abject nonsense. Nobody turns off their emotions when they engage with media, not even you.

We need antagonists, we need villians, we need fictional characters that manipulate, that we cant trust, that we disagree with so that the story becomes interesting, so that there is room for development and conflict and to keep us on our toes.

Yes. And that's exactly what happened. Kishi gave us a character that is unlikeable and untrustworthy. So, not surprisingly, a lot of readers don't like her and don't trust her. Insert ShockedPikachuFace.jpg here.

If the author himself (implicitly) says "you can't trust this character", well, who am I to argue?

If he changes his mind (which he seems to have done as the overall tone of the comic has become softer) and is willing to do the heavy lifting to change mine (which he is mostly doing with her interactions with Mask), then I'll change my mind.

i see so much hate towards KaoKao... i am aware of what she had done in the past but can't we enjoy KaoMayo without judging her because of her past actions..?

It's a minority, in all the polls done on twitter (x) of kishi mask and kaoru are among the favorites.And hey, we have the impression that kaoru murdered someone ^^ some people would still have to take a step back, his rest of the teenagers and god knows that in high schools it's not just kiss kiss and tenderness as we see on this fiction.
But I join you this duo brings a lot of fun and surprises, it's even difficult each time to know how their meetings will evolve. It seems that mask decided to really make kaoru a close person, giving her the honor of a kaokao...
Even kaoru who is usually impatient seems to have understood that she will not achieve anything with mask without changing and not rushing things, her reaction when mayoi takes off her mask shows that she is completely still under the spell .

literally my thoughts, thanks:) i really find them hilarious and i am glad at least they are receving some love on the polls! ^_^

Kishi-sensei attacking the audience with this mini-chapter!

Welp, I'm now both insulted AND aroused. Thanks I guess :P

Yuu just casually, yet personally, insulted us. Praise from Caesar.