my new favorite ship for the sole reason of how much drama it creates in shipping/yuri reddits
ninryu
Mar 29, 2025 11:54AM
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME
Moedred
Mar 29, 2025 2:09PM
^^ It's creating drama everywhere. On Reddit, Youtube, Twitch etc.
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 2:12PM
ImheretoDie
Mar 29, 2025 5:53PM
^^^ I find it funny how people treat it with such vehement disgust.
Like- didn't Childe almost kill Traveler? Twice? Why can you ship that but not this?
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 5:54PM
FluffyCow
Mar 29, 2025 6:16PM
^Something that comes to mind off the top of my head is that generally speaking with some people there's an expectation for F/F ships to more cute and wholesome. Where as F/M ships I've noticed there's a lot where the guy is toxic, or at least generally rude, and people never bat an eye at it. There's also a weird societal acceptance for some where men don't have to be nice to women, in a relationship the guy gets away with being the worst, and he doesn't respect women in general (including his partner and his own family, coworkers and so fourth). That aspect sucks and is gross.
Also I often enjoy cute and wholesome, but I can enjoy other things as well such as this ship (which can also be cute and wholesome depending on the artist), and if a ship doesn't interest me I generally don't go out of my way to complain about it. People have a habit of harassing others about fictional shipping online, and it's such a weird waste of time to me. I think I've managed to avoid a good amount of drama with this ship because I'm largely here just to see the fanart for Miyoho games, and keep to my own.
juanelric
Mar 29, 2025 6:20PM
^I'm not 1000% sure that's the reason, but whatever it is is probably also the reason why MahoAko got so poorly received compared to series with arguably worse content
I don't see half as many people complain about Mushoku Tensei or Redo of Healer as they did while the first season of the MahoAko anime was airing (and those two stayed in TV Tropes while MahoAko got removed).
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 6:23PM
FluffyCow
Mar 29, 2025 6:33PM
^Well there are varied reasons for different people, sometimes there's overlap between people and/or reasons, subconsciously or otherwise different things come up. So I think at least some of what I'm saying plays a part in the overall picture.
On another note I've seen people talk a lot over the years about how there's a constant content police for Yuri, but Yaoi has a lot more "anything goes" policy for many.
So it's always interesting...there's a lot of different layers, nuances, and complications at play with all of it. Especially as everyone has different views and opinions on everything.
butches-and-chicken
Mar 29, 2025 6:39PM
^It's just sexism, people want to women to be the way they want, even fictional characters. If a woman doesn't keep up with their expectations, you see this kind of reaction you mentioned before.
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 6:39PM
FluffyCow
Mar 29, 2025 6:43PM
^Yeah sexism is at the core of things here, that's really what I was trying to get at and maybe I over complicated my thoughts.
Moedred
Mar 29, 2025 8:07PM
@FluffyCow
That's also what I noticed with "harem" kind of shipping when it's one male and multiple females type of harem. For some reason, no matter what is original guy personality (and in most fiction, main character is usually genuinely nice guy), in this "harem scenarios" he become kind of a dick, treating women with 0 respect, like toys to play whenever he wants. It's always so weird. It sometimes happen in yuri, but if her personality is changed "main" girl is usually more teasing, or much more bold, but guy is outright rude and condescending. Wonder when it came from.
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 8:07PM
FluffyCow
Mar 29, 2025 8:47PM
^A lot of where that comes from is again sexism issues. If we're talking player character protags, and say using Genshin's Aether as the example there, there's a good amount of male players for the game that use him to self insert. Where some of them channel their own incel thinking, lack of respect for women, entitlement with thinking women are their property, and so fourth through the character. Which paints the character in a bad light, but usually it's the players channeling that kind of nasty behavior through the character that are the actual problem.
As a side note...I can't help but think of Aether as anything but a bottom with various male characters in the game lol
Moedred
Mar 29, 2025 9:09PM
^ Yeah, it's probably it. It's kinda funny how people are hounding at shippers when self-inserters are usually way more annoying and changing character personalities waaaay more. It least shippers try to keep characters close to what they are in-universe (well, not always), not projecting themselves unto them. But I'm the former, not latter so maybe I'm biased.
I mean I ship Aether with some of the girls, but if for a guys, can You imagine guy with a long braid (so long flowy hairs) and a crop top, as anything else than a bottom? ;p
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 9:11PM
FluffyCow
Mar 29, 2025 9:50PM
^Well I can at least say Aether's top and exposed tummy definitely give some ideas when it comes to that side of gay shipping. Which Yaoi ships usually aren't my go to, though in my opinion Lumine and Aether are both pretty easy to same sex ship.
Zesc
Mar 30, 2025 4:37AM
On the topic of backlash in yuri vs yaoi: It's worth considering that yaoi shipping is (sadly) a predominantly female demography, just like fan fiction, whilst yuri is more gender neutral. And guys can't have what women like, no no no, that's intrinsically cringe.
I can recall criticism of Redo of Healer, but it was quickly shot down the same way men drown out every female objection: by being louder. Emancipated woke feminazis ruining everything, fr. I guess himejoshis are too well-behaved to "win" whilst fujoshis don't get into any crossfire from their negligible male counterparts.
For the sake of not coming of entirely misandrist, I should mention that when shipping, you need to expect storms, embargoes, piracy and even all-out naval warfare. 'Tis the way of fandoms. Amen.
On the topic of Aether: I still can't fathom how Mihoyo could throw away the absolute gold they would've had if the siblings simply swapped outfits. Instead we got legally distinct Gerudo Link and a healer unit from Fire Emblem you get when all the named chars have died. (If you disagree, look up Sorey's Armatization forms. Midriff Lumine should be obvious.)
FluffyCow
Mar 30, 2025 5:06AM
^Oh yeah I know a lot of Yaoi culture is Fujoshi centered, and stating the obvious Fujoshi are women as the translation is Rotten Girl. Though there are some gay men mixed into the general Yaoi scene as well. Still it's interesting how Yaoi can be really...intense, to say the least, and in ways I generally try to avoid with media personally. Fujoshi is definitely it's own culture, and they can very be intense about it. I'll always remember a friend telling me about how a Fujoshi they were briefly friends with once ran into a book store, and loudly yelled "Where's the gay shit at?!", much to my friend's embarrassment lol
I digress though, moving forward I mean I'm a fan of midriff in general myself, so I'd say midriff for both Aether and Lumine would be a balanced world haha
Zesc
Mar 30, 2025 10:50AM
^ To my understanding, "Yaoi" refers to female-targeted M/M manga, whereas those intended for a male audience are "Bara". (I think; this is probably a sweeping generalization.) There's no such distinction for F/F manga afaik, so you get more interactions/clashes between himejoshi and himedanshi sub(sub)fandoms and their respective expectations, like drama over shipping mortal enemies with another.
Again, greatly abstracted, but I believe the former have a higher tolerance for emotional "complexity" and the latter for sexual "spectacle". Perhaps it's just my own bias, but the toxicity in fanworks is just so much more intricate when targeted at women. Male-targeted works can be just as depraved and offensive (if not worse) but tend to ignore the multidimensional context around the abuse. Or, in regards to smut, to misquote from a 1991 comedy western: "Men just need an [opportunity] to fuck, women need a reason".
To apologize for broad strokes again (hat-trick!), the first author who comes to my mind when it comes to "exaggerated porn which never explores its scandalous setting" is Pandacorya, who is apparently a woman. Maybe my entire point is just me being swamped in the very gender stereotypes I despise so much...
Uh, quick, midriff! Genshin Impact certainly has a lot of it (probably because outside of sheer lingerie, everyone just gets halves of a set) on both guys and girls. Though on the topic of Genshin Yaoi I can't but notice how they've be dialling back the amount of husbandos released, down to 3 out of 18 within the last year. I'd much prefer men being released in lockstep with women (like in HSR) instead of becoming a bishoujo game paying mere lip service to having playable men.
Yeah sorry we got way off track with art discussion. All of this started with discussing the art and controversies around it, to more broader strokes of the fandom, including self insertion, and then into Yaoi. It was a journey lol
I don't really know if I have much else to say. There's always a lot of complications and nuances with all aspects of everything discussed, different people and view points, especially across different social medias and varied pockets of the fandom. All I can really say in closing is that this ship really shouldn't be that big of a deal in my opinion, and shipping policing often is an exhausting waste of time for everyone.
Zesc
Mar 30, 2025 4:37PM
Oh my, I didn't realize people take offence to absence of brevity here (as opposed to chapter comments). Sorry.
And yeah, looking through the list of pairings ... some didn't even stop at one assassination attempt.
Hot_Soup43
Mar 30, 2025 5:08PM
Man the mere existence of Arlefuri just creates paragraphs in the comments.
Anyway time to endorse "A Fatui Harbinger in Lady Furina's Court" by Darlingmistaken.
It's pretty good and wholesome Arlefuri fanfic... Well up until the smut that is, then it gets a little less wholesome. But let's be real if you're reading fanfic you were already expecting that.
FluffyCow
Mar 30, 2025 5:21PM
^The funny thing is that I don't think anyone that's commented so far is against the ship. The conversation just went to a lot of varied places lmao
PineconeJuice Mar 29, 2025 8:00AM
my new favorite ship for the sole reason of how much drama it creates in shipping/yuri reddits
ninryu Mar 29, 2025 11:54AM
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME
Moedred Mar 29, 2025 2:09PM
^^ It's creating drama everywhere. On Reddit, Youtube, Twitch etc.
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 2:12PM
ImheretoDie Mar 29, 2025 5:53PM
^^^ I find it funny how people treat it with such vehement disgust.
Like- didn't Childe almost kill Traveler? Twice? Why can you ship that but not this?
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 5:54PM
FluffyCow Mar 29, 2025 6:16PM
^Something that comes to mind off the top of my head is that generally speaking with some people there's an expectation for F/F ships to more cute and wholesome. Where as F/M ships I've noticed there's a lot where the guy is toxic, or at least generally rude, and people never bat an eye at it. There's also a weird societal acceptance for some where men don't have to be nice to women, in a relationship the guy gets away with being the worst, and he doesn't respect women in general (including his partner and his own family, coworkers and so fourth). That aspect sucks and is gross.
Also I often enjoy cute and wholesome, but I can enjoy other things as well such as this ship (which can also be cute and wholesome depending on the artist), and if a ship doesn't interest me I generally don't go out of my way to complain about it. People have a habit of harassing others about fictional shipping online, and it's such a weird waste of time to me. I think I've managed to avoid a good amount of drama with this ship because I'm largely here just to see the fanart for Miyoho games, and keep to my own.
juanelric Mar 29, 2025 6:20PM
^I'm not 1000% sure that's the reason, but whatever it is is probably also the reason why MahoAko got so poorly received compared to series with arguably worse content
I don't see half as many people complain about Mushoku Tensei or Redo of Healer as they did while the first season of the MahoAko anime was airing (and those two stayed in TV Tropes while MahoAko got removed).
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 6:23PM
FluffyCow Mar 29, 2025 6:33PM
^Well there are varied reasons for different people, sometimes there's overlap between people and/or reasons, subconsciously or otherwise different things come up. So I think at least some of what I'm saying plays a part in the overall picture.
On another note I've seen people talk a lot over the years about how there's a constant content police for Yuri, but Yaoi has a lot more "anything goes" policy for many.
So it's always interesting...there's a lot of different layers, nuances, and complications at play with all of it. Especially as everyone has different views and opinions on everything.
butches-and-chicken Mar 29, 2025 6:39PM
^It's just sexism, people want to women to be the way they want, even fictional characters. If a woman doesn't keep up with their expectations, you see this kind of reaction you mentioned before.
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 6:39PM
FluffyCow Mar 29, 2025 6:43PM
^Yeah sexism is at the core of things here, that's really what I was trying to get at and maybe I over complicated my thoughts.
Moedred Mar 29, 2025 8:07PM
@FluffyCow
That's also what I noticed with "harem" kind of shipping when it's one male and multiple females type of harem. For some reason, no matter what is original guy personality (and in most fiction, main character is usually genuinely nice guy), in this "harem scenarios" he become kind of a dick, treating women with 0 respect, like toys to play whenever he wants. It's always so weird. It sometimes happen in yuri, but if her personality is changed "main" girl is usually more teasing, or much more bold, but guy is outright rude and condescending. Wonder when it came from.
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 8:07PM
FluffyCow Mar 29, 2025 8:47PM
^A lot of where that comes from is again sexism issues. If we're talking player character protags, and say using Genshin's Aether as the example there, there's a good amount of male players for the game that use him to self insert. Where some of them channel their own incel thinking, lack of respect for women, entitlement with thinking women are their property, and so fourth through the character. Which paints the character in a bad light, but usually it's the players channeling that kind of nasty behavior through the character that are the actual problem.
As a side note...I can't help but think of Aether as anything but a bottom with various male characters in the game lol
Moedred Mar 29, 2025 9:09PM
^ Yeah, it's probably it. It's kinda funny how people are hounding at shippers when self-inserters are usually way more annoying and changing character personalities waaaay more. It least shippers try to keep characters close to what they are in-universe (well, not always), not projecting themselves unto them. But I'm the former, not latter so maybe I'm biased.
I mean I ship Aether with some of the girls, but if for a guys, can You imagine guy with a long braid (so long flowy hairs) and a crop top, as anything else than a bottom? ;p
last edited at Mar 29, 2025 9:11PM
FluffyCow Mar 29, 2025 9:50PM
^Well I can at least say Aether's top and exposed tummy definitely give some ideas when it comes to that side of gay shipping. Which Yaoi ships usually aren't my go to, though in my opinion Lumine and Aether are both pretty easy to same sex ship.
Zesc Mar 30, 2025 4:37AM
On the topic of backlash in yuri vs yaoi: It's worth considering that yaoi shipping is (sadly) a predominantly female demography, just like fan fiction, whilst yuri is more gender neutral. And guys can't have what women like, no no no, that's intrinsically cringe.
I can recall criticism of Redo of Healer, but it was quickly shot down the same way men drown out every female objection: by being louder. Emancipated woke feminazis ruining everything, fr. I guess himejoshis are too well-behaved to "win" whilst fujoshis don't get into any crossfire from their negligible male counterparts.
For the sake of not coming of entirely misandrist, I should mention that when shipping, you need to expect storms, embargoes, piracy and even all-out naval warfare. 'Tis the way of fandoms. Amen.
On the topic of Aether: I still can't fathom how Mihoyo could throw away the absolute gold they would've had if the siblings simply swapped outfits. Instead we got legally distinct Gerudo Link and a healer unit from Fire Emblem you get when all the named chars have died. (If you disagree, look up Sorey's Armatization forms. Midriff Lumine should be obvious.)
FluffyCow Mar 30, 2025 5:06AM
^Oh yeah I know a lot of Yaoi culture is Fujoshi centered, and stating the obvious Fujoshi are women as the translation is Rotten Girl. Though there are some gay men mixed into the general Yaoi scene as well. Still it's interesting how Yaoi can be really...intense, to say the least, and in ways I generally try to avoid with media personally. Fujoshi is definitely it's own culture, and they can very be intense about it. I'll always remember a friend telling me about how a Fujoshi they were briefly friends with once ran into a book store, and loudly yelled "Where's the gay shit at?!", much to my friend's embarrassment lol
I digress though, moving forward I mean I'm a fan of midriff in general myself, so I'd say midriff for both Aether and Lumine would be a balanced world haha
Zesc Mar 30, 2025 10:50AM
^ To my understanding, "Yaoi" refers to female-targeted M/M manga, whereas those intended for a male audience are "Bara". (I think; this is probably a sweeping generalization.) There's no such distinction for F/F manga afaik, so you get more interactions/clashes between himejoshi and himedanshi sub(sub)fandoms and their respective expectations, like drama over shipping mortal enemies with another.
Again, greatly abstracted, but I believe the former have a higher tolerance for emotional "complexity" and the latter for sexual "spectacle". Perhaps it's just my own bias, but the toxicity in fanworks is just so much more intricate when targeted at women. Male-targeted works can be just as depraved and offensive (if not worse) but tend to ignore the multidimensional context around the abuse. Or, in regards to smut, to misquote from a 1991 comedy western: "Men just need an [opportunity] to fuck, women need a reason".
To apologize for broad strokes again (hat-trick!), the first author who comes to my mind when it comes to "exaggerated porn which never explores its scandalous setting" is Pandacorya, who is apparently a woman. Maybe my entire point is just me being swamped in the very gender stereotypes I despise so much...
Uh, quick, midriff! Genshin Impact certainly has a lot of it (probably because outside of sheer lingerie, everyone just gets halves of a set) on both guys and girls. Though on the topic of Genshin Yaoi I can't but notice how they've be dialling back the amount of husbandos released, down to 3 out of 18 within the last year. I'd much prefer men being released in lockstep with women (like in HSR) instead of becoming a bishoujo game paying mere lip service to having playable men.
DrJamesFox Mar 30, 2025 10:54AM
https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/discuss?tag_id=26952 maybe?
Instead of pumping the image comments thread full of paragraphs.
juanelric Mar 30, 2025 1:05PM
^The Yuri tag's discussion would be another good place to move this discussion to
https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/5306-yuri-discussion
FluffyCow Mar 30, 2025 1:58PM
Yeah sorry we got way off track with art discussion. All of this started with discussing the art and controversies around it, to more broader strokes of the fandom, including self insertion, and then into Yaoi. It was a journey lol
I don't really know if I have much else to say. There's always a lot of complications and nuances with all aspects of everything discussed, different people and view points, especially across different social medias and varied pockets of the fandom. All I can really say in closing is that this ship really shouldn't be that big of a deal in my opinion, and shipping policing often is an exhausting waste of time for everyone.
Zesc Mar 30, 2025 4:37PM
Oh my, I didn't realize people take offence to absence of brevity here (as opposed to chapter comments). Sorry.
And yeah, looking through the list of pairings ... some didn't even stop at one assassination attempt.
Hot_Soup43 Mar 30, 2025 5:08PM
Man the mere existence of Arlefuri just creates paragraphs in the comments.
Anyway time to endorse "A Fatui Harbinger in Lady Furina's Court" by Darlingmistaken.
It's pretty good and wholesome Arlefuri fanfic... Well up until the smut that is, then it gets a little less wholesome. But let's be real if you're reading fanfic you were already expecting that.
FluffyCow Mar 30, 2025 5:21PM
^The funny thing is that I don't think anyone that's commented so far is against the ship. The conversation just went to a lot of varied places lmao