It struck me as odd that Korea's portrayed as the taller one, but turns out japanese women really are smaller on average.
Givemeanaccount
Aug 27, 2024 1:54PM
So is this a relationship between two women from Korea and Japan, or is it a relationship between two personifications of the countries?
BV
Aug 27, 2024 2:56PM
^ From what I've been following from the trend (which should be about half a day less than the Dynasty Discord as a whole started keeping tabs on it), it's almost certainly the former.
Can't wait for images containing the other Asian countries' women to get here too. Although the trend seems to still mostly be Japanese/Korean thing, it had long since broken the barrier into places like China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and even as far away as India and Pakistan
KomradeBicycle
Aug 29, 2024 1:45PM
@Zesc Koreans in general are 'normal' in terms of height, at least measured by European standards. Japan is the outlier here, likely because of genetic trends due to being an island nation.
LilyBlueCat
Aug 30, 2024 6:27AM
The artists of this trend tends to depict Korean women as more dominant and Japanese women as more cute and submissive, which I find interesting. I think it's influenced by idol culture in Japan and Korea (and other medias) from how I see it. For example, Korean groups like LE SSERAFIM and TWICE often do mature concepts, while Japanese groups like AKB48 does cuter concepts.
Zesc
Aug 30, 2024 11:29AM
@KomradeBicycle I've had a misconception about Korean and Chinese body height as below average. I guess I saw how people in India, the southeast asia and Japan are smaller, connected the dots (literally, on a map) and decided the same applies to Korea too. Though being central european doesn't help with accurate assessment of body height either.
Yasako
Aug 30, 2024 9:27PM
^ Korea is the middle point ethnically between China and Japan although China does have more various ethnic groups' genes while Korea is mostly Han. It strikes me as odd that the Japanese population, having Han and indigenous blood, is shorter, but I guess the humans who went offcoast from Asia before the 800s were just short lol
juanelric
Aug 30, 2024 9:34PM
Japanese and Koreans are han? This is the first I hear of this.
KomradeBicycle
Aug 31, 2024 5:53AM
Han is a fairly recent term in an ethnographic sense. Dating about 1500 years back. The term for the ethnic group of the majority in Japan (Yamato) is supposed to start with people that arrived in Japan 2000 years ago. (Yamato is also a super loaded term like Han.) I can't find much about the Koreans having a specific term for this, but there were definitely people on the Korean penisula before Han was a term.
It's absolutely fair to say that all of these peoples have a common origin dating somewhere around 2500 years back in roughly the area of China. But I doubt either the Japanese or the Koreans would be happy to simply be subsumed into the term Han. Especially since that term is loaded with a lot more assumptions about culture and beliefs through Chinese propaganda.
Edit: The Koreans use the term Han, but Han just means something equivalent to Kingdom in Korean and they conceptualise their nation as the descendants of a period of three Kingdoms in the area. Thus they are the people of these Han, which refers to a different Han than the Han Chinese. This also apparently helps the South Koreans to currently distinguish themselves from the North Koreans, who use Joseon.
last edited at Aug 31, 2024 6:04AM
Porrima
Aug 31, 2024 2:49PM
^ Han is a fairly recent term in an ethnographic sense. Dating about 1500 years back.
Chinese propaganda would appropriate every thing in all the world as them or their if they could, so thus without meaning to otherwise undermine your very good post, 1500 years is very long time indeed. While this is a thorny question due to many reasons, how many peoples in 524 AD Europe (for example) are "the same" people with "the same" name in 2024?
last edited at Aug 31, 2024 3:08PM
Zesc
Sep 1, 2024 2:38PM
To chime in here, the Korean term for Korea, Hangug (한국), includes gug (국) meaning soup land (compare Migug, Chunggug, Taegug, etc.). Han explciitly refers to the Han people, at least as far as my research is concerned, yet not even Naver knows of it meaning "Kingdom". (I know we have koreans around here; I'd appreciate corrections and links to further my learning.)
Also, there is the phenomenon of island dwarfism in animals (think Ostrich vs Dodo), which we know affects primates. I wonder whether this also affected anatomically modern humans, and if it's rude to ask.
Sadly, it's hard to check this further, because the sources are... in Korean. Either way, the usage of the word Han in reference to Kingdoms may have waned, since the Three Kingdoms era took place around the time when the term Han first appeared in China.
As for the Han being an older described ethnic group than anything in Europe... I mean, I understand the point you are making and I didn't want to suggest that Han is not a valid descriptor. I just dislike the way the Chinese state is currently wielding it. That said, literally the first two groups I could think of, that being the Franks and the Basque people, are older than that term.
I didn't want to stir up trouble mind you. I just saw the claim that Koreans are Han and having been to Korea thought that they probably wouldn't like to be called Han. So I started digging a little bit. I am by no means an expert and am likely wrong on a lot of this.
PS: There are groups of humans that are believed to be diminutive due to Insular dwarfism. In particular there are a few 'uncontacted peoples' for which people suspect that this is true (see the Sentinelese). They may just also simply be short for different genetic reasons or because these groups are small this may be an outlier measurement unrelated to insular dwarfism. But Japan is way too big for this to be the deciding factor. If something like this is the reason, then it would have to be because of a general lack of nourishment in the area, which I think hasn't really been a problem in Japan.
PPS: I am moving to Korea soon and my Korean boss there is history-obsessed. So I will try to get him to explain this to me and report back. Then at least we will have it from the horse's mouth so to say.
last edited at Sep 4, 2024 4:03PM
Porrima
Sep 4, 2024 4:37PM
That said, literally the first two groups I could think of, that being the Franks and the Basque people, are older than that term.
The basque are certainly an exception to many things. But who exactly are the "Franks" now? The french? From 524 AD perspective to the modern day, they are franks, and also bretons, burgundians, occitans and (later on) vikings. Franks are also german, and some others.
But again, this isn't really important and doesn't undermine the fact koreans aren't chinese and wouldn't love being told that, most of them.. I just wanted to catch on to something since I don't talk with people a lot outside my "job"-role :|
a general lack of nourishment in the area, which I think hasn't really been a problem in Japan.
I think it has, for a very long time - not too much protein available to people, I remember reading something in reddit/askhistorians about how utterly miserable japanese peasant diet was in the medieval ages (even compared to contemporary peasants in Europe) and even in WW1 and WW2 times this was still causing issues to them. They tried to find out in WW1 times why all their naval lower men were sick all the time with their mono-rice diet.
But I'm not sure if that actually affects anything about modern time height.
Zesc
Sep 5, 2024 12:13AM
First things first, Koreans refer to their own ethnicity as 한민족 (Hanminjog) where 족 simply means "clan", afaik. The full name of the Republic of Korea is 대한민국 (Daehanmingg); as that reddit post you linked mentioned, 대 simply means "great" (i.e. a 학생 is a student, a 대학생 is a university student, etc.) and 국 means ... probably not exactly "land" (as 약국 is a pharmacy where 약 is "medicine") but is a general term relating to territory with nuances that are probably untranslatable.
Now this send me down a rabbit hole on figuring out where that "han" came from. The english Wikipedia entry lacks citations about its etymology, so I went to the french one which offers a different explanation, arguing it might stem from the title "Khan" (as well as 하늘, "sky", which I kinda doubt). Accepting that I have to bite the sour apple I tried my luck with ko.wikipedia.org and found that they put the etymology either on "Khan" or on the meaning of "central" that 한 can have. They also note that 韓 has been used in both China and Korea in the name of various kingdoms.
Anyhow, I think it is pretty clear that Koreans refer to themselves as Han, but that mustn't mean they see themselves as chinese. Ethnic terms are always politically charged, and a shared etymology does not mean they identify as another. (Circling back to the Franks example, I myself am sandwiched between the Franks from France and the Franks from Bavaria in a near-rhine region that doesn't consider itself "frank", but rather swabian/alemannic.) "Dutch" and "Deutsch" share an etymology, yet are different (at least by self-perception). And don't get me started on America's indigenous people being "indians".
TL;DR: Koreans may or may not be Han, depending on what you mean with that term. Who would have thought that ethnicities could be such a touchy topic? Definitely looking forward to your boss' take on this.
The 국 in 한국 and 약국 are both from different Middle Chinese loan words and don't share any etymological background
In 한국 it stems from 國 (pronounced kwok) and in 약국 it comes from 局 (pronounced gjowk).
KomradeBicycle
Sep 18, 2024 1:50PM
I have returned! However, I fear what I have gathered will be disappointing.
I met my (future) boss while he was on a trip abroad and asked him what he thinks the Han in Hanguk stands for. Surprisingly, he had no answer ready. He eventually guessed that it probably is a marker for ethnicity, but wasn't sure. When I mentioned that I had heard that it was derived from Samhan, the other Korean in attendence seemed to recognise that connection, but wouldn't make a strong claim either. Most fascinating to me was that he did not seem immediately offended when I mentioned that it was suggested to me that it was the same Han as in Han-Chinese.
So in total the conversation just made me more confused and gave me no real answers. For now I will personally believe the Samhan story and try to figure out more once I actually am in Korea, though that's still a little ways off.
PS: Hadn't thought about a lack of nutritional diversity in Japan, but that sounds pretty good to me. Certainly should be a larger factor than living on what is technically an island.
DrJamesFox
Sep 18, 2024 2:09PM
I met my (future) boss while
For some reason I read this as "future wife" at first and thought you were about to do a bunch of gushing/bragging lol. Still interesting though so thanks for sharing :)
last edited at Sep 18, 2024 2:35PM
Zesc
Sep 20, 2024 5:19PM
Thanks for the update Komrade! On the note of being offended about Han as in Han-Chinese, I do wonder what the chinese stance on this would be.
Alphabus Aug 26, 2024 8:54PM
Yuri shall conquer asia.
loveantique Aug 26, 2024 8:55PM
yeash~<3
luinthoron Aug 27, 2024 6:37AM
Cute.
Zesc Aug 27, 2024 11:37AM
It struck me as odd that Korea's portrayed as the taller one, but turns out japanese women really are smaller on average.
Givemeanaccount Aug 27, 2024 1:54PM
So is this a relationship between two women from Korea and Japan, or is it a relationship between two personifications of the countries?
BV Aug 27, 2024 2:56PM
^ From what I've been following from the trend (which should be about half a day less than the Dynasty Discord as a whole started keeping tabs on it), it's almost certainly the former.
Can't wait for images containing the other Asian countries' women to get here too. Although the trend seems to still mostly be Japanese/Korean thing, it had long since broken the barrier into places like China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and even as far away as India and Pakistan
KomradeBicycle Aug 29, 2024 1:45PM
@Zesc Koreans in general are 'normal' in terms of height, at least measured by European standards. Japan is the outlier here, likely because of genetic trends due to being an island nation.
LilyBlueCat Aug 30, 2024 6:27AM
The artists of this trend tends to depict Korean women as more dominant and Japanese women as more cute and submissive, which I find interesting. I think it's influenced by idol culture in Japan and Korea (and other medias) from how I see it. For example, Korean groups like LE SSERAFIM and TWICE often do mature concepts, while Japanese groups like AKB48 does cuter concepts.
Zesc Aug 30, 2024 11:29AM
@KomradeBicycle I've had a misconception about Korean and Chinese body height as below average. I guess I saw how people in India, the southeast asia and Japan are smaller, connected the dots (literally, on a map) and decided the same applies to Korea too. Though being central european doesn't help with accurate assessment of body height either.
Yasako Aug 30, 2024 9:27PM
^ Korea is the middle point ethnically between China and Japan although China does have more various ethnic groups' genes while Korea is mostly Han. It strikes me as odd that the Japanese population, having Han and indigenous blood, is shorter, but I guess the humans who went offcoast from Asia before the 800s were just short lol
juanelric Aug 30, 2024 9:34PM
Japanese and Koreans are han? This is the first I hear of this.
KomradeBicycle Aug 31, 2024 5:53AM
Han is a fairly recent term in an ethnographic sense. Dating about 1500 years back. The term for the ethnic group of the majority in Japan (Yamato) is supposed to start with people that arrived in Japan 2000 years ago. (Yamato is also a super loaded term like Han.) I can't find much about the Koreans having a specific term for this, but there were definitely people on the Korean penisula before Han was a term.
It's absolutely fair to say that all of these peoples have a common origin dating somewhere around 2500 years back in roughly the area of China. But I doubt either the Japanese or the Koreans would be happy to simply be subsumed into the term Han. Especially since that term is loaded with a lot more assumptions about culture and beliefs through Chinese propaganda.
Edit: The Koreans use the term Han, but Han just means something equivalent to Kingdom in Korean and they conceptualise their nation as the descendants of a period of three Kingdoms in the area. Thus they are the people of these Han, which refers to a different Han than the Han Chinese. This also apparently helps the South Koreans to currently distinguish themselves from the North Koreans, who use Joseon.
last edited at Aug 31, 2024 6:04AM
Porrima Aug 31, 2024 2:49PM
Chinese propaganda would appropriate every thing in all the world as them or their if they could, so thus without meaning to otherwise undermine your very good post, 1500 years is very long time indeed. While this is a thorny question due to many reasons, how many peoples in 524 AD Europe (for example) are "the same" people with "the same" name in 2024?
last edited at Aug 31, 2024 3:08PM
Zesc Sep 1, 2024 2:38PM
To chime in here, the Korean term for Korea, Hangug (한국), includes gug (국) meaning
soupland (compare Migug, Chunggug, Taegug, etc.). Han explciitly refers to the Han people, at least as far as my research is concerned, yet not even Naver knows of it meaning "Kingdom". (I know we have koreans around here; I'd appreciate corrections and links to further my learning.)Also, there is the phenomenon of island dwarfism in animals (think Ostrich vs Dodo), which we know affects primates. I wonder whether this also affected anatomically modern humans, and if it's rude to ask.
last edited at Sep 1, 2024 2:49PM
KomradeBicycle Sep 4, 2024 3:48PM
So as for the term Han meaning Kingdom. I will admit that I originally stumbled on this when reading some historian-reddit, where the question about the meaning of Han in the name of South Korea was asked. (See https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/8xlnmj/why_do_koreans_call_themselves_han_daehan/)
I don't speak Korean, so I will also admit to having no personal experience with this word. However, the Three Kingdoms reference seems to check out, at least according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms_of_Korea
See also the article for the names of Korea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Korea#Han
Sadly, it's hard to check this further, because the sources are... in Korean. Either way, the usage of the word Han in reference to Kingdoms may have waned, since the Three Kingdoms era took place around the time when the term Han first appeared in China.
As for the Han being an older described ethnic group than anything in Europe... I mean, I understand the point you are making and I didn't want to suggest that Han is not a valid descriptor. I just dislike the way the Chinese state is currently wielding it. That said, literally the first two groups I could think of, that being the Franks and the Basque people, are older than that term.
I didn't want to stir up trouble mind you. I just saw the claim that Koreans are Han and having been to Korea thought that they probably wouldn't like to be called Han. So I started digging a little bit. I am by no means an expert and am likely wrong on a lot of this.
PS: There are groups of humans that are believed to be diminutive due to Insular dwarfism. In particular there are a few 'uncontacted peoples' for which people suspect that this is true (see the Sentinelese). They may just also simply be short for different genetic reasons or because these groups are small this may be an outlier measurement unrelated to insular dwarfism. But Japan is way too big for this to be the deciding factor. If something like this is the reason, then it would have to be because of a general lack of nourishment in the area, which I think hasn't really been a problem in Japan.
PPS: I am moving to Korea soon and my Korean boss there is history-obsessed. So I will try to get him to explain this to me and report back. Then at least we will have it from the horse's mouth so to say.
last edited at Sep 4, 2024 4:03PM
Porrima Sep 4, 2024 4:37PM
The basque are certainly an exception to many things. But who exactly are the "Franks" now? The french? From 524 AD perspective to the modern day, they are franks, and also bretons, burgundians, occitans and (later on) vikings. Franks are also german, and some others.
But again, this isn't really important and doesn't undermine the fact koreans aren't chinese and wouldn't love being told that, most of them.. I just wanted to catch on to something since I don't talk with people a lot outside my "job"-role :|
I think it has, for a very long time - not too much protein available to people, I remember reading something in reddit/askhistorians about how utterly miserable japanese peasant diet was in the medieval ages (even compared to contemporary peasants in Europe) and even in WW1 and WW2 times this was still causing issues to them. They tried to find out in WW1 times why all their naval lower men were sick all the time with their mono-rice diet.
But I'm not sure if that actually affects anything about modern time height.
Zesc Sep 5, 2024 12:13AM
First things first, Koreans refer to their own ethnicity as 한민족 (Hanminjog) where 족 simply means "clan", afaik. The full name of the Republic of Korea is 대한민국 (Daehanmingg); as that reddit post you linked mentioned, 대 simply means "great" (i.e. a 학생 is a student, a 대학생 is a university student, etc.) and 국 means ... probably not exactly "land"
(as 약국 is a pharmacy where 약 is "medicine")but is a general term relating to territory with nuances that are probably untranslatable.Now this send me down a rabbit hole on figuring out where that "han" came from. The english Wikipedia entry lacks citations about its etymology, so I went to the french one which offers a different explanation, arguing it might stem from the title "Khan" (as well as 하늘, "sky", which I kinda doubt). Accepting that I have to bite the sour apple I tried my luck with ko.wikipedia.org and found that they put the etymology either on "Khan" or on the meaning of "central" that 한 can have. They also note that 韓 has been used in both China and Korea in the name of various kingdoms.
Anyhow, I think it is pretty clear that Koreans refer to themselves as Han, but that mustn't mean they see themselves as chinese. Ethnic terms are always politically charged, and a shared etymology does not mean they identify as another. (Circling back to the Franks example, I myself am sandwiched between the Franks from France and the Franks from Bavaria in a near-rhine region that doesn't consider itself "frank", but rather swabian/alemannic.) "Dutch" and "Deutsch" share an etymology, yet are different (at least by self-perception). And don't get me started on America's indigenous people being "indians".
TL;DR: Koreans may or may not be Han, depending on what you mean with that term. Who would have thought that ethnicities could be such a touchy topic? Definitely looking forward to your boss' take on this.
PS: Handy map on avg. body height
last edited at Sep 6, 2024 9:02AM
DY4Y Sep 5, 2024 4:45AM
The 국 in 한국 and 약국 are both from different Middle Chinese loan words and don't share any etymological background
In 한국 it stems from 國 (pronounced kwok) and in 약국 it comes from 局 (pronounced gjowk).
KomradeBicycle Sep 18, 2024 1:50PM
I have returned! However, I fear what I have gathered will be disappointing.
I met my (future) boss while he was on a trip abroad and asked him what he thinks the Han in Hanguk stands for. Surprisingly, he had no answer ready. He eventually guessed that it probably is a marker for ethnicity, but wasn't sure. When I mentioned that I had heard that it was derived from Samhan, the other Korean in attendence seemed to recognise that connection, but wouldn't make a strong claim either. Most fascinating to me was that he did not seem immediately offended when I mentioned that it was suggested to me that it was the same Han as in Han-Chinese.
So in total the conversation just made me more confused and gave me no real answers. For now I will personally believe the Samhan story and try to figure out more once I actually am in Korea, though that's still a little ways off.
PS: Hadn't thought about a lack of nutritional diversity in Japan, but that sounds pretty good to me. Certainly should be a larger factor than living on what is technically an island.
DrJamesFox Sep 18, 2024 2:09PM
For some reason I read this as "future wife" at first and thought you were about to do a bunch of gushing/bragging lol. Still interesting though so thanks for sharing :)
last edited at Sep 18, 2024 2:35PM
Zesc Sep 20, 2024 5:19PM
Thanks for the update Komrade! On the note of being offended about Han as in Han-Chinese, I do wonder what the chinese stance on this would be.
Only 20% of height differences are accountable to nutrition, the rest is genetic; both countries grew by 4 cm over the last century which might be due to better nutrition.