Isn't one of them FtM? Or did I confuse the big one with a different character?
last edited at Sep 30, 2023 12:10PM
Galim
Sep 30, 2023 1:02PM
^ No, Yamato is not trans. That's a bad dubism.
Titanoktonon
Sep 30, 2023 3:05PM
^^ He/Him/Oden lesbian
Galim
Sep 30, 2023 3:27PM
^ Again, using he/him is dub-only. It should be considered as canon as Sailor Moon's resident lesbians being cousins.
shaitan
Sep 30, 2023 9:01PM
^ Yamato being referred to as Kaido's son certainly isn't a dub-only thing, though.
Galim
Sep 30, 2023 9:27PM
^ Except in her introduction info box, which carries the most weight due to being direct from the author, in which Yamato is referred to as Kaido's daughter.
shaitan
Oct 1, 2023 10:22AM
^ Sure, but considering that the other characters in the story otherwise refer to Yamato as male, for whatever reason, I don't see how a translation having them use he/him pronouns as well is a "bad dubism" on par with the Sailor Moon cousins thing.
Galim
Oct 1, 2023 11:19AM
Do other characters refer to Yamato as male explicitly, or with masculine terms? That's rhetorical.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic. I understand, to an extent, where the confusion comes from, but I'm also really tired of this debate.
Yamato is not transmasc, she's either delusional or an extremely dedicated roleplayer (IIRC, she referred to Momonosuke as her own son to his face), and either way to compare her mental state to being trans should be offensive to real trans people. It's supposed to be a silly character gimmick that some characters in-universe see through, some humor, some ignore, et cetera. Other characters obviously know that Yamato is not Oden and (most) should not refer to her as though she actually "became a man" or whatever because that makes no sense and is not what being trans is.
I consider it a bad dubism because Yamato adopting Oden's identity is supposed to be a joke, and changing the entire cast to take it 100% seriously (in a way that, again, disrespects real trans people) because Western audiences are overly sensitive to gender-related topics right now was a terrible decision, in part because it spawned this debate.
Think about this: If Yamato had adopted the identity of a specific dead woman instead, to the extent of referring to that woman's relatives as her own, the only thing we would be debating would be if she was actually crazy.
Rant over. Please don't make me do it again.
last edited at Oct 1, 2023 11:31AM
shaitan
Oct 1, 2023 3:30PM
Do other characters refer to Yamato as male explicitly, or with masculine terms? That's rhetorical.
Rhetorical or not, I'm going to answer anyways: Yeah, they do. I already mentioned the whole Kaido's son thing, and Luffy's nickname for Yamato also uses the kanji for "man".
I'm largely in agreement with you on Yamato's gender, actually. I just don't think that, under the circumstances, using he/him pronouns for the character is particularly unreasonable.
Galim
Oct 1, 2023 5:31PM
^ I don't consider either of those examples conclusive. Mordred is Artoria's "son", is she not?
I will only ever refer to Yamato with she/her pronouns. In-universe it might be a bit more nuanced, but it makes sense for characters to refer to Yamato with he/him pronouns if and only if they are either humoring her roleplay/delusion or take her statement about being/becoming Oden at face value (probably just Luffy). All the members of Kaido's crew, regardless of if they call her his son, should refer to her with she/her pronouns as an implicit rejection of her claim to be Oden.
I understand that it's easier and less confusing to use one set of pronouns, especially if using two, one of which is technically inaccurate. However, using he/him universally misrepresents far more characters than using she/her universally.
last edited at Oct 2, 2023 2:04AM
juanelric
Oct 2, 2023 12:41AM
^ I don't consider either of those examples conclusive. Mordred is Artoria's "son", is she not?
Counterpoint: One Piece isn't Fate
Galim
Oct 2, 2023 1:11AM
^ I genuinely don't know what point you think you're making. My point was there are other examples of gendered terms of relation being used for a person of the opposite gender.
On top of that, we were never given a specific reason why Yamato is referred to as Kaido's son, but I think the strongest theory remains that Yamato was to take over a position of political power traditionally held by men. And Mordred?
juanelric
Oct 2, 2023 1:18AM
This talk reminds me of the time when someone refused to accept Cagliostro from Granblue Fantasy is trans because "a lot of people in Japan are transphobic so Cagliostro's creators must be as well".
Galim
Oct 2, 2023 1:53AM
^ So you are of the interpretation, against (so far) every instance of or adjacent to Oda's word of god, that Yamato is something other than female?
Edit: I looked up Cagliostro. First, yeah, duh, obviously trans, she literally made herself a new body of the opposite sex. Second, what on earth does she have in common with Yamato?
last edited at Oct 2, 2023 2:01AM
colboh
Oct 2, 2023 3:01AM
It's a fucking tragedy that we have a beautiful piece of romantic size-difference artwork like this, and we end up with a debate on Yamato's gender.
Entertainment, especially animé and manga, are some of the very, very few things that can bring completely different people together in this day and age.
It's sad that people can't just bond over enjoying a character, they have to fight over whose interpretation of a character is the most accurate.
I wish Oda would make an explicit statement over whether Yamato is a woman or a trans man, like Arc System Works did with Bridget. I'm tired of seeing this argument everywhere.
last edited at Oct 3, 2023 1:31AM
BV
Oct 2, 2023 7:24PM
Dear god, what have I done?
Casusby
Oct 2, 2023 10:53PM
I'm putting an end to this debate, this is not the place for it.
Do not continue it.
GrimEater Sep 29, 2023 9:00PM
Nice
Galim Sep 29, 2023 10:07PM
Yamato my beloved
eromancer Sep 30, 2023 4:07AM
Er ...
Height gap?BV Sep 30, 2023 12:09PM
Isn't one of them FtM? Or did I confuse the big one with a different character?
last edited at Sep 30, 2023 12:10PM
Galim Sep 30, 2023 1:02PM
^ No, Yamato is not trans. That's a bad dubism.
Titanoktonon Sep 30, 2023 3:05PM
^^ He/Him/Oden lesbian
Galim Sep 30, 2023 3:27PM
^ Again, using he/him is dub-only. It should be considered as canon as Sailor Moon's resident lesbians being cousins.
shaitan Sep 30, 2023 9:01PM
^ Yamato being referred to as Kaido's son certainly isn't a dub-only thing, though.
Galim Sep 30, 2023 9:27PM
^ Except in her introduction info box, which carries the most weight due to being direct from the author, in which Yamato is referred to as Kaido's daughter.
shaitan Oct 1, 2023 10:22AM
^ Sure, but considering that the other characters in the story otherwise refer to Yamato as male, for whatever reason, I don't see how a translation having them use he/him pronouns as well is a "bad dubism" on par with the Sailor Moon cousins thing.
Galim Oct 1, 2023 11:19AM
Do other characters refer to Yamato as male explicitly, or with masculine terms? That's rhetorical.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic. I understand, to an extent, where the confusion comes from, but I'm also really tired of this debate.
Yamato is not transmasc, she's either delusional or an extremely dedicated roleplayer (IIRC, she referred to Momonosuke as her own son to his face), and either way to compare her mental state to being trans should be offensive to real trans people. It's supposed to be a silly character gimmick that some characters in-universe see through, some humor, some ignore, et cetera. Other characters obviously know that Yamato is not Oden and (most) should not refer to her as though she actually "became a man" or whatever because that makes no sense and is not what being trans is.
I consider it a bad dubism because Yamato adopting Oden's identity is supposed to be a joke, and changing the entire cast to take it 100% seriously (in a way that, again, disrespects real trans people) because Western audiences are overly sensitive to gender-related topics right now was a terrible decision, in part because it spawned this debate.
Think about this: If Yamato had adopted the identity of a specific dead woman instead, to the extent of referring to that woman's relatives as her own, the only thing we would be debating would be if she was actually crazy.
Rant over. Please don't make me do it again.
last edited at Oct 1, 2023 11:31AM
shaitan Oct 1, 2023 3:30PM
Rhetorical or not, I'm going to answer anyways: Yeah, they do. I already mentioned the whole Kaido's son thing, and Luffy's nickname for Yamato also uses the kanji for "man".
I'm largely in agreement with you on Yamato's gender, actually. I just don't think that, under the circumstances, using he/him pronouns for the character is particularly unreasonable.
Galim Oct 1, 2023 5:31PM
^ I don't consider either of those examples conclusive. Mordred is Artoria's "son", is she not?
I will only ever refer to Yamato with she/her pronouns. In-universe it might be a bit more nuanced, but it makes sense for characters to refer to Yamato with he/him pronouns if and only if they are either humoring her roleplay/delusion or take her statement about being/becoming Oden at face value (probably just Luffy). All the members of Kaido's crew, regardless of if they call her his son, should refer to her with she/her pronouns as an implicit rejection of her claim to be Oden.
I understand that it's easier and less confusing to use one set of pronouns, especially if using two, one of which is technically inaccurate. However, using he/him universally misrepresents far more characters than using she/her universally.
last edited at Oct 2, 2023 2:04AM
juanelric Oct 2, 2023 12:41AM
Counterpoint: One Piece isn't Fate
Galim Oct 2, 2023 1:11AM
^ I genuinely don't know what point you think you're making. My point was there are other examples of gendered terms of relation being used for a person of the opposite gender.
On top of that, we were never given a specific reason why Yamato is referred to as Kaido's son, but I think the strongest theory remains that Yamato was to take over a position of political power traditionally held by men.
And Mordred?
juanelric Oct 2, 2023 1:18AM
This talk reminds me of the time when someone refused to accept Cagliostro from Granblue Fantasy is trans because "a lot of people in Japan are transphobic so Cagliostro's creators must be as well".
Galim Oct 2, 2023 1:53AM
^ So you are of the interpretation, against (so far) every instance of or adjacent to Oda's word of god, that Yamato is something other than female?
Edit: I looked up Cagliostro. First, yeah, duh, obviously trans, she literally made herself a new body of the opposite sex. Second, what on earth does she have in common with Yamato?
last edited at Oct 2, 2023 2:01AM
colboh Oct 2, 2023 3:01AM
It's a fucking tragedy that we have a beautiful piece of romantic size-difference artwork like this, and we end up with a debate on Yamato's gender.
Entertainment, especially animé and manga, are some of the very, very few things that can bring completely different people together in this day and age.
It's sad that people can't just bond over enjoying a character, they have to fight over whose interpretation of a character is the most accurate.
I wish Oda would make an explicit statement over whether Yamato is a woman or a trans man, like Arc System Works did with Bridget. I'm tired of seeing this argument everywhere.
last edited at Oct 3, 2023 1:31AM
BV Oct 2, 2023 7:24PM
Dear god, what have I done?
Casusby Oct 2, 2023 10:53PM
I'm putting an end to this debate, this is not the place for it.
Do not continue it.