i don't think takamori's dead. some fans were just overreacting at kiara's statement. she didn't wanna limit herself. she literally just wanna have more than just one waifu. give her all the waifus she needs.
lar1sss
Sep 27, 2021 11:06PM
^ Yeah, a hundred million years mythical creatures are allowed to have harems!! umu umu~~
Namyks
Sep 28, 2021 12:44AM
I do think Kiara didn't exactly explain what she meant in the best way. I assume she meant that she's going to stop doing the hyper-thirsty for Calli bit, which is fine, I don't think that's what drew anyone to the ship anyways. But I can understand why people were confused and worried, especially in the moment of her talking about it. Hopefully this will stop people from spamming "NTR/ don't let dad/mom know" or mentioning the other one when they're not being talked about, in chat/comments.
Anyways this is cute artwork, and I'm hoping their interactions will be just as cute in the future.
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 12:44AM
Thebingolas
Sep 28, 2021 12:45AM
This entire Takamori drama just taught me not to keep my hopes up for these Vtuber ships, thank you Kiara for opening my eyes, if all you want is to gain an audience by baiting, it's better to just go rub your breasts on the microphone like Marine does, don't just win over an audience with a fake acting and then take it all away from them putting the entire Hololive homophobic simps against people who liked the ship and Yuri fans as if they were the toxic people and all the hard work and dedication they've put into fan content about it means nothing to you, and it probably doesn't
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 1:24AM
random
Sep 28, 2021 2:22AM
^what is it about the Vtuber rabbit hole that rots peoples' reality/fiction filter srsly...
ninryu
Sep 28, 2021 3:03AM
^^ Damn, calm down. People take this way too seriously.
Heisenberg
Sep 28, 2021 3:13AM
^yeah this kind of already happened with noefure, enjoy the shipping all you want just don't be so annoying in chat and don't reduce the talents to a ship it's not that hard bro
Pingoloco
Sep 28, 2021 3:21AM
^ The difference is that Noefure is actully legit
FluffyCow
Sep 28, 2021 3:22AM
@Random, the Vtuber rabbit hole is just the latest thing people get weird with separating reality/fiction. It's unfortunately nothing new. People were doing shit like not only shipping TV/Movie characters together but ALSO the actors playing them, long long before Vtubers became popular. If you ever need a really creepy example of this, look into the Arrow fandom, where people were harassing Stephen Amell's wife because they shipped him with the actress of Felicity from the show. If I remember right people were photoshopping the face of Felicity's actress over the face of Stephen Amell's wife in pictures. Really fucking bizarre things like that.
You also have cases where VAs will be harassed on social media and verbally abused because people dislike their CHARACTER in whatever game, anime, so fourth.
There's MANY, MANY, really shitty cases where people aren't separating reality and fiction properly. People doing this with Vtubers is unfortunately only the newest drop in the ocean.
~
Edit: Also I don't know what Thebingolas is on about. Kiara said on Twitter something along the lines of she likes seeing whatever ship art people draw, people are fine to draw any ship art they want with her. The biggest problem I believe is that people in chat (and probably others places) were being extremely annoying about the shipping, and taking it waaay too far. There's fun parts to shipping and fanart is fine, but shipping communities tend to get REALLY shitty really quickly. I remember months ago Ame got understandably pissed because people were flooding her Q & A with questions about her being Gura's "girlfriend". When she wants to be recognized as her own person. Again fanart and shipping can be fine, just don't go shoving it in their faces and being completely obsessed with it.
Edit 2: Another random example of people disturbing the peace with shipping? There was a good amount of people when Promare came to theaters in the states who were pissed off, because Yaoi shippers kept screaming about the Lio and Galo ship the whole time and ruining the experience of the movie. I remember my friend telling me about a Yaoi-fan friend of his, who when entering a book store screamed at the top of her lungs "Where's the gay shit at?!". Regardless of Hetero/Yaoi/Yuri people need to learn to tone it down.
Edit 3: I want to say the random shade Thebingolas threw at Marine was entirely unnecessary. It's fine to not like Marine, but she's a harder worker and talented entertainer.
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 4:24AM
random
Sep 28, 2021 5:31AM
^didn't say it was the first or was going to be the last. I'm only too aware of the sort of Loony Fan entitlement bullshit that eg. gets actors harassed because some dumbass who can't tell a person from their role is upset over the latest twist in the eternally running soap opera show they're way too emotionally invested in. (We've had such incidents 'round my neck of the woods too, and this country's by and large on the saner side of the spectrum.)
It is, however, the first such to creep into this place that I've noticed.
FluffyCow
Sep 28, 2021 5:51AM
^Oh yeah I know you didn't say it was the first, sorry if I implied that as it wasn't my intent. More so I'm saying that people have a serious problem with separating fiction and reality in general, and so it's less of a Vtuber thing and more just people bring that into any kind of entertainment unfortunately.
I'm not sure what you mean by "this" place, Dynasty? I've seen a lot of people arguing on here before about things that stem from not separating reality and fiction. Such as people saying an author needs therapy because they wrote a disturbing piece of fiction. So on and so fourth. I see people not separating fiction and reality with pretty much all entertainment I'm involved in.
Anyhow though, it's very late so I'm going to get some sleep. We might want to consider continuing this conversation in a forum post. We're probably getting to the off topic point where the mods are going to bonk us soon heh
random
Sep 28, 2021 7:08AM
^^confusing presentation for promotion is the ancient hallmark of Moral Crusaders who, IMO, actually mainly just want an easy rhetorical blunt instrument with which to burn the witch that has offended their sensibilities. Here today as much as it was say two-three thousand years ago.
OTOH already given the outlandish character settings of the VTuber personas Thebingolas is the equivalent of someone shocked and appalled to learn the cartoonish feuds between pro wrestlers aren't real and Mark William Calaway is not, in fact, a zombie biker robot demon or whatever the heck The Undertaker's kayfabe nowadays is.
Which is about the same degree of filter failure as a small child thinking Uncle Jonas really does turn into a ghost when he throws a white sheet over his head but without the excuse of age.
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 7:11AM
georgeoswalddannyson
Sep 28, 2021 8:12AM
kiara explained things much better in her members stream. I wish she had taken her time to collect herself and explain things better in a public stream, but it is what it is
EDIT: @random oh, sorry I wasn't replying to your comment. Was gonna reply to someone else but gave up and decided to make a general statement. I just forgot to delete the last "^"
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 9:00AM
random
Sep 28, 2021 8:25AM
^I don't particularly care one way or another, the VTuber rabbit hole ain't my drug.
I do care, however, already on general principles about the delusionally entitled thinking they somehow have the right to make demands on performing artists' private business and get mad when reality and fiction don't match.
Vankomycin
Sep 28, 2021 8:50AM
Remember the Harry/Hermione shippers who actually sent in a petition with a few thousand signatures to the publisher of the Harry Potter books demanding that the then-unwritten Book 7 be written by this one particular Harry/Hermione shipfic writer? Because JK Rowling was planning on pairing Harry up with that strumpet Ginny. And that clearly meant she did not understand her own characters well enough to write Book 7.
Good times.
Serenata
Sep 28, 2021 10:43AM
Speculations and harassment sadly part of the fandom (and many fandoms), it's not new to hololive, it's always the same people, they just move on from one fandom to another.
almighty
Sep 28, 2021 2:03PM
people who are genuinely mad about virtual anime girls not actually being together need to touch grass. its a joke, and people shouldnt be attacked for being mature about it
FluffyCow
Sep 28, 2021 2:06PM
I just woke up and I'm happy to see that the conversation here is levelheaded. I'm surprised the mods haven't said anything about it being off topic, so I guess it's fine?
@Vankomycin Oh I remember that, it was really bizarre.
@Serenata Yeah it's weird how there seems to be people that bounce fandom to fandom and just bring the worst to them every time.
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 2:06PM
Thedodas
Sep 28, 2021 4:18PM
Before: Omg i love this ship! Bless the Takamori!!!
Now: I aLwAyS KnEw ThAt iT WaS JuSt a JoKe HaHAhaHa
random
Sep 28, 2021 4:41PM
^
>account created literally today
>makes exactly one post
>username remarkably similar to another he's comping
...I'm not saying that's a sockpuppet acc but it sure tries hard to look like one. :|
FluffyCow
Sep 28, 2021 6:12PM
^Hmm that's strange, but in fairness I think Dodas is making fun of people that were all for the ship and are now are acting like they never liked it to begin with.
Thedodas
Sep 28, 2021 8:48PM
^Yeah that was my intention, sorry i didn't had a account because i usually don't comment on the site, i just come here to read the Yuri content, just decided to make a comment because that's something i've been noticing a lot these last days in the Hololive fandom
Dark_Tzitzimine
Sep 29, 2021 12:32AM
As someone that got into Hololive precisely because of Takamori, I must say this is n extremely disappointing turn of events. I think most people saw it coming but I still had hoped for them to be able to work things out but it wasn't the case.
I can't blame Kiara for wanting to be more than just Calli's crazy love interest but the way she did it, well it wasn't the best. She took off the veil that kept Vtubers separate from regular streamers and I simply won't be able to see her and Calli in the same way. I wish them both all the best but whatever comes next is not something I'm interested in seeing, is just not the same, and I do not like the idea of seeing Kiara having new "canon" ships because I can't give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.
The upside is that breaking the link between the character and the performer means that I can keep enjoying Takamori fan works (for as long as keep doing them, at least) by taking them as if they were just another couple from a manga or an anime and ignore completely the existence of their RL counterparts.
MartZ
Sep 29, 2021 1:30AM
Holy shi-
Sufficient Agony
Sep 29, 2021 1:33AM
I might have been alone in divorcing the characters they are playing from whom they actually are when they aren't streaming...
Buscoito
Sep 29, 2021 1:40AM
@Dark_Tzitzimine honestly, i feel the same way, like the way she said it, it just throwed the possibility that everything they do can be just an act, she said that she wants to do other "ships" but like...no...why do you want to do that if your feelings are not real?, i'm not saying that she should force herself to have these feelings but like...if you just don't really feel it...then just don't do it? Even if it's just her character, she is still a real person with real feelings, why do you want People to get invested on other ships if you literally just shoved on everyone's face that it was all just acting?
personally this just broke the immersion of Vtubers for me, i won't be able to watch it the same way i watched before, now everything they do just seem fake...idk
random
Sep 29, 2021 1:50AM
^no but seriously what part of "performing artists" wasn't computing for you in the first place? You don't expect the actors in whatever series you're currently watching to "really" feel the emotions and relationships and whatever they're portraying either, do you?
That's just basic entertainement reality check.
I might add that only too often when I see people commenting on VTubers here I legitimately cannot tell to what degree they're just playing along with the relevant kayfabe and how much they've allowed weird wisful thinking and "shipping" to erode the ever-important reality/fiction filter that distinguishes the actor from the role.
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 1:52AM
Buscoito
Sep 29, 2021 2:05AM
^Wathever man, all i'm saying is that they are still streamers who constantly interact with their viewers and with other talents, you can't compare that to shows/series because there's literally no script they have to follow besides their basic "character" aspects, supposedly
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:07AM
random
Sep 29, 2021 2:10AM
^I quite fail to see what is supposed to fundamentally change with the different medium and degree of interaction. Plus live performers are a thing too and routinely interact with their audiences while donning one role or another on the stage.
Tell me - exactly what difference is it supposed to make that the stage is a virtual forum instead of a structure in a hall or a park?
Lowkey suspecting you might need a dose of certain healthy cynicism regarding the scripting aspect, too.
Buscoito
Sep 29, 2021 2:12AM
^Ok
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:13AM
FluffyCow
Sep 29, 2021 2:19AM
Welp things took a turn here I see. I don't know why people are having such a crisis of faith with this situation. Basically expect Vtubers to have some genuineness to their friendships, their personality in their characters, however you shouldn't expect anything from things like ships. I've been around Takamori since day one and it was super obvious to me that it was something Kiara did for fun but not out of any seriousness.
Also everyone has different sides to them, different masks they wear for different people. Don't expect to truly know everything about anyone, and especially don't expect that from entertainers you don't personally know. Remember that at the end of the day they have a life outside of their streaming and are a person outside of the character they put on for streaming. This can be said for streamers who just use a camera as well.
I've been separating the streamer from the person they are outside of streaming since day one, and so I'm not having any crisis of faith here. I'm not at all understanding how this situation ruins Vtubers for people and the immersion of the character.
Edit 2: I removed "but alas maybe people needed the reality check", because it's not my intent to be rude and I realize the wording is harsher than I meant. So I'll instead say, maybe people needed to realize there's more to the streamer outside of their streaming persona. Their character is just one of many sides of who they are. Hopefully this reflects my thoughts a bit better, and doesn't sound rude.
Edit: I would say I understand some of where Buscoito is coming from. Vtubers are a mix of a person and a character, more than a TV/Movie character and actor most of the time anyhow. I would say I agree with some of what Random is saying but disagree with other aspects, like if you seriously think Vtubers are scripted that's legitimately wild.
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:39AM
Dark_Tzitzimine
Sep 29, 2021 2:25AM
@Random
I think we all are aware of the fact that ultimately, they're actors. But having the cover of the virtual persona gave them a degree of plausible deniability that let you think "what if is actually real?" Especially with the way Kiara always came off as being legitimately into Calli and girls in general, and even Calli's dere moments worked into it. All of this created a very unique scenario where you could see and interact with fictional characters in a way you rarely see.
But once that Kiara comes out and says that everything is just an act, well, then they're just another streamer for the pile and at least for me, I can no longer see their interactions with each other as anything but just another part of their job.
Oh and your suggestion of "Healthy cynicism" just comes off as being a party pooper that can't see anything without looking for things to smugly say "Is fake". And I think that is such an awful way of living.
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:29AM
Buscoito
Sep 29, 2021 2:29AM
@FluffyCow Well then i think i was just enjoying Vtubers in the wrong way i guess, i think i was just convinced by their roles that i tought they were more of themselves on stream, i apologize if i said something wrong and made anyone upset
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:30AM
FluffyCow
Sep 29, 2021 2:34AM
@Buscoito You're perfectly fine, and I don't think you were enjoying them in the wrong way. Apologies if I came across as saying that, I didn't mean to sound rude either. I think they ARE to a degree themselves and the character. Who they are on stream and how they blend into their character is a side of them, we're not going to see all the sides of them or know who they are outside of streaming. Which I think is fine personally, and just knowing this has made it so I'm aware that there's these sides to them that we'll never see and it means my immersion is intact. I get what I expect with the streams and the streamer, hopefully this makes sense.
random
Sep 29, 2021 2:35AM
^^^to put it bluntly I can only see that as a "you" kind of problem; emotional over-investement in a fantasy that holds a particular appeal to you.
Because that's what it is at the end of the day and allowing yourself to forget that distinction after the latest performance segment has concluded is straight up dangerous. It's the first step down a slope that leads to some very dark places.
Whatever the medium and the skill of the performers it's fundamentally the responsibility of the viewer to distinguish fact from fiction; and the audience most certainly is not entitled to make any demands of the actors outside the role and then get mad when those aren't met.
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:36AM
FluffyCow
Sep 29, 2021 2:48AM
Ultimately it's kind of interesting to be having this conversation in a way. Since we're all strangers that could be anywhere in the world, we know really nothing about each other. A few thoughts and opinions of each other. Everything we're saying and thinking might not even be conveyed properly, it's difficult to fully get our thoughts across and communicate, how people perceive what we say might be different than how we intend it, and all of this text conversation lacks tone. So I mean this whole conversation we strangers are all having about streamers with character personas on line, is in it's self comically surreal. I just hope nobody feels bad about anything I've said, I have no ill will towards anyone here even if I share different views. I hope everyone is able to enjoy the things like they like. We're just a bunch of people on a strange ball floating in space, all trying to live our lives the best we can haha
random
Sep 29, 2021 3:02AM
^errrr... did you hit the bottle and suddenly switch into "soulful old drunk" mode or something? o_O
FluffyCow
Sep 29, 2021 3:09AM
^Haha well it's entirely fair to think that, but no. People I know tend to think my way of thinking is a bit unusual, I suppose I find life in general surreal.
Edit: I'm going to hit the hay, have a wonderful night everyone, it was fun chatting. Time to fly through the cosmos of dreams. As the Nursery Rhyme goes, "Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream, Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream".
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 3:49AM
FilthyFlow
Sep 29, 2021 4:15AM
Clearly what vtubers should do is adopt personas so absolutely insane that there's no question what they're doing is all an act.
Felx
Sep 29, 2021 4:18AM
Did I make an account just for these comment? Nope gonna keep using this one for later. so now, two things
1.like someone said above kiara did give a reason as to why she said that In a only members streams and it is a reason I totally agree with, since I don't know if I should put the reason (and also I still don't know how the spoilers thing works) I ain't gonna say it
2. I think the reason as to why some people are mad isn't so much the fact that they don't separate reality from fiction, I think it's more likely that their ship got "attacked" from one half of it, kiara saying what she said pretty much put a dent in the whole takamori ship and for some people that probably where invested in the ship didn't leave a nice taste
random
Sep 29, 2021 4:24AM
^^kek
^...because being that invested in a fiction doesn't indicate issues with separating the real from the make-believe in the first place?
Felx
Sep 29, 2021 4:35AM
^ that's an individual problem, invested in fiction, like you said, doesn't mean problem with separating reality with fiction, that there are people that have that issue? Sure, but being invested in something fictional doesn't mean you don't know the difference, if that was the case then I would probably think I am some manga character lol
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 4:35AM
random
Sep 29, 2021 4:45AM
^spare me the weird reductio ad absurdum strawmen. Treating something fictional like it was or should be real, and reacting with outrage when it's not because you're so emotionally invested in it, rather strikes me as a fact/fiction separation issue per definitionem.
Vankomycin
Sep 29, 2021 4:54AM
Someone busted out their Latin phrasebook for this post I see.
Felx
Sep 29, 2021 4:57AM
^^If you're invested in something and it goes in a way you don't like I think it's normal to be upset, like a series you like suddenly becomes bad (game of thrones is a good example of this) or youre a fan of sport and your team is doing bad, it's the same concept, other medium. but let's just agree to disagree let's not make this comment section longer than needed
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 5:00AM
Vankomycin
Sep 29, 2021 5:00AM
let's not make this comment section longer than needed
I think that ship has well and truly sailed already.
Felx
Sep 29, 2021 5:01AM
^ let's hope that ship docks then (and I aren't really helping with this comment lmao)
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 5:02AM
Hylarn
Sep 29, 2021 5:06AM
Clearly what vtubers should do is adopt personas so absolutely insane that there's no question what they're doing is all an act.
You know, I would have thought that Takamori was already clearly an act, what Calli being pretty bad at acting tsundere and nothing happening when they met in person. But here we are anyway
random
Sep 29, 2021 11:32AM
@Felx - this is not a question of emotional investement itself but what you're emotionally invested in as has been repeatedly made very clear throughout the debate. As such I'm going to go and accuse you of deliberate bad-faith mischaracterisation of the whole argument.
Your gross false equivalencies are null and void right in the face of it, though it's funny that you attempt to invoke parallels with "traditional" fiction - when at least two people previously have been specifically trying to make the excuse that differences in the medium, structure etc. are somehow so fundamental they magically relieve the audience of the default personal responsibility to distinguish between the real and the fantastic.
Felx
Sep 29, 2021 1:40PM
^ oh no I get that part, that someone is responsible for separating reality from fiction, true, the ship is fictional but has a "reality part" if you will, and the best comparison that I can think is the arrow stuff that was discussed above where people can't differentiate reality/fiction I totally understood that, is just that I tried to give another reason as to why people might be mad about the whole thing isn't necessarily about the distinction but the fact even if they are just invested in the fictional part they still got hit since the whole premise was one was in love and the other was a tsundere and all of a sudden one of them gave a reason to stop it, that was why I brought up the being upset part before, I see your point and I don't think that I can explain mine a lot better than this so that's that
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 1:44PM
Flanny
Sep 30, 2021 1:40PM
Thank God no one touch OkaKoro...
Otaser
Oct 1, 2021 3:34AM
I think the whole confusion and bad feelings comes from the fact that V tubers live in the same space as twitch streamers, just that they have a virtual persona overlaid on them. A lot of people just assume that they're the same, and we're MEANT to believe that, but they're not, V tubers are actors playing someone they are not.
I'll admit that I sort of half fell into that trap too, while I didn't think that Kiara's actually a phoenix or something and I knew that there's a level of disconnect between the character and the person behind it, I did expect there to be something genuine in all of the Vtubers' interactions, and there almost certainly is, which makes for easy confusion. I don't think it's fake when Fauna tells Mumei that she's cute, so why should I be so sure that it's fake when Kiara tells Calli she loves her, right?
Also this might be all the Copium talking but I genuinely still think there's something there, be it that Kiara just likes Calli as a friend or anything. You can't keep your persona up for hours a day if it's entirely fake without it breaking from time to time.
BlueDsc
Oct 1, 2021 6:15PM
Calli and Kiara absolutely love each other, it just isn't the romantic love that overzealous shippers want it to be.
whatever42
Oct 2, 2021 10:25PM
^^I mean, it's pretty obvious that Kiara loves Calli as a friend and vice-versa (talking about the RL people here). They've gone over that at great length and in a variety of contexts. Like, Calli nearly shelled out 3,000 dollars on a fancy hotel room for their trip, I don't have any friends close enough that I would do that for them lol. But yeah, there was never any indication that it was romantic IRL.
And TBH, if Kiara's actress did act towards Calli's actress the way Kiara the character acts towards Calli the character, it would be sexual harassment, so we're probably better off that way...
beccamyoui Sep 27, 2021 10:12PM
kiara wearing calli's hoodie :')
i don't think takamori's dead. some fans were just overreacting at kiara's statement. she didn't wanna limit herself. she literally just wanna have more than just one waifu. give her all the waifus she needs.
lar1sss Sep 27, 2021 11:06PM
^ Yeah, a hundred million years mythical creatures are allowed to have harems!! umu umu~~
Namyks Sep 28, 2021 12:44AM
I do think Kiara didn't exactly explain what she meant in the best way. I assume she meant that she's going to stop doing the hyper-thirsty for Calli bit, which is fine, I don't think that's what drew anyone to the ship anyways. But I can understand why people were confused and worried, especially in the moment of her talking about it. Hopefully this will stop people from spamming "NTR/ don't let dad/mom know" or mentioning the other one when they're not being talked about, in chat/comments.
Anyways this is cute artwork, and I'm hoping their interactions will be just as cute in the future.
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 12:44AM
Thebingolas Sep 28, 2021 12:45AM
This entire Takamori drama just taught me not to keep my hopes up for these Vtuber ships, thank you Kiara for opening my eyes, if all you want is to gain an audience by baiting, it's better to just go rub your breasts on the microphone like Marine does, don't just win over an audience with a fake acting and then take it all away from them putting the entire Hololive homophobic simps against people who liked the ship and Yuri fans as if they were the toxic people and all the hard work and dedication they've put into fan content about it means nothing to you, and it probably doesn't
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 1:24AM
random Sep 28, 2021 2:22AM
^what is it about the Vtuber rabbit hole that rots peoples' reality/fiction filter srsly...
ninryu Sep 28, 2021 3:03AM
^^ Damn, calm down. People take this way too seriously.
Heisenberg Sep 28, 2021 3:13AM
^yeah this kind of already happened with noefure, enjoy the shipping all you want just don't be so annoying in chat and don't reduce the talents to a ship it's not that hard bro
Pingoloco Sep 28, 2021 3:21AM
^ The difference is that Noefure is actully legit
FluffyCow Sep 28, 2021 3:22AM
@Random, the Vtuber rabbit hole is just the latest thing people get weird with separating reality/fiction. It's unfortunately nothing new. People were doing shit like not only shipping TV/Movie characters together but ALSO the actors playing them, long long before Vtubers became popular. If you ever need a really creepy example of this, look into the Arrow fandom, where people were harassing Stephen Amell's wife because they shipped him with the actress of Felicity from the show. If I remember right people were photoshopping the face of Felicity's actress over the face of Stephen Amell's wife in pictures. Really fucking bizarre things like that.
You also have cases where VAs will be harassed on social media and verbally abused because people dislike their CHARACTER in whatever game, anime, so fourth.
There's MANY, MANY, really shitty cases where people aren't separating reality and fiction properly. People doing this with Vtubers is unfortunately only the newest drop in the ocean.
~
Edit: Also I don't know what Thebingolas is on about. Kiara said on Twitter something along the lines of she likes seeing whatever ship art people draw, people are fine to draw any ship art they want with her. The biggest problem I believe is that people in chat (and probably others places) were being extremely annoying about the shipping, and taking it waaay too far. There's fun parts to shipping and fanart is fine, but shipping communities tend to get REALLY shitty really quickly. I remember months ago Ame got understandably pissed because people were flooding her Q & A with questions about her being Gura's "girlfriend". When she wants to be recognized as her own person. Again fanart and shipping can be fine, just don't go shoving it in their faces and being completely obsessed with it.
Edit 2: Another random example of people disturbing the peace with shipping? There was a good amount of people when Promare came to theaters in the states who were pissed off, because Yaoi shippers kept screaming about the Lio and Galo ship the whole time and ruining the experience of the movie. I remember my friend telling me about a Yaoi-fan friend of his, who when entering a book store screamed at the top of her lungs "Where's the gay shit at?!". Regardless of Hetero/Yaoi/Yuri people need to learn to tone it down.
Edit 3: I want to say the random shade Thebingolas threw at Marine was entirely unnecessary. It's fine to not like Marine, but she's a harder worker and talented entertainer.
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 4:24AM
random Sep 28, 2021 5:31AM
^didn't say it was the first or was going to be the last. I'm only too aware of the sort of Loony Fan entitlement bullshit that eg. gets actors harassed because some dumbass who can't tell a person from their role is upset over the latest twist in the eternally running soap opera show they're way too emotionally invested in. (We've had such incidents 'round my neck of the woods too, and this country's by and large on the saner side of the spectrum.)
It is, however, the first such to creep into this place that I've noticed.
FluffyCow Sep 28, 2021 5:51AM
^Oh yeah I know you didn't say it was the first, sorry if I implied that as it wasn't my intent. More so I'm saying that people have a serious problem with separating fiction and reality in general, and so it's less of a Vtuber thing and more just people bring that into any kind of entertainment unfortunately.
I'm not sure what you mean by "this" place, Dynasty? I've seen a lot of people arguing on here before about things that stem from not separating reality and fiction. Such as people saying an author needs therapy because they wrote a disturbing piece of fiction. So on and so fourth. I see people not separating fiction and reality with pretty much all entertainment I'm involved in.
Anyhow though, it's very late so I'm going to get some sleep. We might want to consider continuing this conversation in a forum post. We're probably getting to the off topic point where the mods are going to bonk us soon heh
random Sep 28, 2021 7:08AM
^^confusing presentation for promotion is the ancient hallmark of Moral Crusaders who, IMO, actually mainly just want an easy rhetorical blunt instrument with which to burn the witch that has offended their sensibilities. Here today as much as it was say two-three thousand years ago.
OTOH already given the outlandish character settings of the VTuber personas Thebingolas is the equivalent of someone shocked and appalled to learn the cartoonish feuds between pro wrestlers aren't real and Mark William Calaway is not, in fact, a zombie biker robot demon or whatever the heck The Undertaker's kayfabe nowadays is.
Which is about the same degree of filter failure as a small child thinking Uncle Jonas really does turn into a ghost when he throws a white sheet over his head but without the excuse of age.
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 7:11AM
georgeoswalddannyson Sep 28, 2021 8:12AM
kiara explained things much better in her members stream. I wish she had taken her time to collect herself and explain things better in a public stream, but it is what it is
EDIT: @random oh, sorry I wasn't replying to your comment. Was gonna reply to someone else but gave up and decided to make a general statement. I just forgot to delete the last "^"
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 9:00AM
random Sep 28, 2021 8:25AM
^I don't particularly care one way or another, the VTuber rabbit hole ain't my drug.
I do care, however, already on general principles about the delusionally entitled thinking they somehow have the right to make demands on performing artists' private business and get mad when reality and fiction don't match.
Vankomycin Sep 28, 2021 8:50AM
Remember the Harry/Hermione shippers who actually sent in a petition with a few thousand signatures to the publisher of the Harry Potter books demanding that the then-unwritten Book 7 be written by this one particular Harry/Hermione shipfic writer? Because JK Rowling was planning on pairing Harry up with that strumpet Ginny. And that clearly meant she did not understand her own characters well enough to write Book 7.
Good times.
Serenata Sep 28, 2021 10:43AM
Speculations and harassment sadly part of the fandom (and many fandoms), it's not new to hololive, it's always the same people, they just move on from one fandom to another.
almighty Sep 28, 2021 2:03PM
people who are genuinely mad about virtual anime girls not actually being together need to touch grass. its a joke, and people shouldnt be attacked for being mature about it
FluffyCow Sep 28, 2021 2:06PM
I just woke up and I'm happy to see that the conversation here is levelheaded. I'm surprised the mods haven't said anything about it being off topic, so I guess it's fine?
@Vankomycin Oh I remember that, it was really bizarre.
@Serenata Yeah it's weird how there seems to be people that bounce fandom to fandom and just bring the worst to them every time.
last edited at Sep 28, 2021 2:06PM
Thedodas Sep 28, 2021 4:18PM
Before: Omg i love this ship! Bless the Takamori!!!
Now: I aLwAyS KnEw ThAt iT WaS JuSt a JoKe HaHAhaHa
random Sep 28, 2021 4:41PM
^
>account created literally today
>makes exactly one post
>username remarkably similar to another he's comping
...I'm not saying that's a sockpuppet acc but it sure tries hard to look like one. :|
FluffyCow Sep 28, 2021 6:12PM
^Hmm that's strange, but in fairness I think Dodas is making fun of people that were all for the ship and are now are acting like they never liked it to begin with.
Thedodas Sep 28, 2021 8:48PM
^Yeah that was my intention, sorry i didn't had a account because i usually don't comment on the site, i just come here to read the Yuri content, just decided to make a comment because that's something i've been noticing a lot these last days in the Hololive fandom
Dark_Tzitzimine Sep 29, 2021 12:32AM
As someone that got into Hololive precisely because of Takamori, I must say this is n extremely disappointing turn of events. I think most people saw it coming but I still had hoped for them to be able to work things out but it wasn't the case.
I can't blame Kiara for wanting to be more than just Calli's crazy love interest but the way she did it, well it wasn't the best. She took off the veil that kept Vtubers separate from regular streamers and I simply won't be able to see her and Calli in the same way. I wish them both all the best but whatever comes next is not something I'm interested in seeing, is just not the same, and I do not like the idea of seeing Kiara having new "canon" ships because I can't give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.
The upside is that breaking the link between the character and the performer means that I can keep enjoying Takamori fan works (for as long as keep doing them, at least) by taking them as if they were just another couple from a manga or an anime and ignore completely the existence of their RL counterparts.
MartZ Sep 29, 2021 1:30AM
Holy shi-
Sufficient Agony Sep 29, 2021 1:33AM
I might have been alone in divorcing the characters they are playing from whom they actually are when they aren't streaming...
Buscoito Sep 29, 2021 1:40AM
@Dark_Tzitzimine honestly, i feel the same way, like the way she said it, it just throwed the possibility that everything they do can be just an act, she said that she wants to do other "ships" but like...no...why do you want to do that if your feelings are not real?, i'm not saying that she should force herself to have these feelings but like...if you just don't really feel it...then just don't do it? Even if it's just her character, she is still a real person with real feelings, why do you want People to get invested on other ships if you literally just shoved on everyone's face that it was all just acting?
personally this just broke the immersion of Vtubers for me, i won't be able to watch it the same way i watched before, now everything they do just seem fake...idk
random Sep 29, 2021 1:50AM
^no but seriously what part of "performing artists" wasn't computing for you in the first place? You don't expect the actors in whatever series you're currently watching to "really" feel the emotions and relationships and whatever they're portraying either, do you?
That's just basic entertainement reality check.
I might add that only too often when I see people commenting on VTubers here I legitimately cannot tell to what degree they're just playing along with the relevant kayfabe and how much they've allowed weird wisful thinking and "shipping" to erode the ever-important reality/fiction filter that distinguishes the actor from the role.
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 1:52AM
Buscoito Sep 29, 2021 2:05AM
^Wathever man, all i'm saying is that they are still streamers who constantly interact with their viewers and with other talents, you can't compare that to shows/series because there's literally no script they have to follow besides their basic "character" aspects, supposedly
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:07AM
random Sep 29, 2021 2:10AM
^I quite fail to see what is supposed to fundamentally change with the different medium and degree of interaction. Plus live performers are a thing too and routinely interact with their audiences while donning one role or another on the stage.
Tell me - exactly what difference is it supposed to make that the stage is a virtual forum instead of a structure in a hall or a park?
Lowkey suspecting you might need a dose of certain healthy cynicism regarding the scripting aspect, too.
Buscoito Sep 29, 2021 2:12AM
^Ok
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:13AM
FluffyCow Sep 29, 2021 2:19AM
Welp things took a turn here I see. I don't know why people are having such a crisis of faith with this situation. Basically expect Vtubers to have some genuineness to their friendships, their personality in their characters, however you shouldn't expect anything from things like ships. I've been around Takamori since day one and it was super obvious to me that it was something Kiara did for fun but not out of any seriousness.
Also everyone has different sides to them, different masks they wear for different people. Don't expect to truly know everything about anyone, and especially don't expect that from entertainers you don't personally know. Remember that at the end of the day they have a life outside of their streaming and are a person outside of the character they put on for streaming. This can be said for streamers who just use a camera as well.
I've been separating the streamer from the person they are outside of streaming since day one, and so I'm not having any crisis of faith here. I'm not at all understanding how this situation ruins Vtubers for people and the immersion of the character.
Edit 2: I removed "but alas maybe people needed the reality check", because it's not my intent to be rude and I realize the wording is harsher than I meant. So I'll instead say, maybe people needed to realize there's more to the streamer outside of their streaming persona. Their character is just one of many sides of who they are. Hopefully this reflects my thoughts a bit better, and doesn't sound rude.
Edit: I would say I understand some of where Buscoito is coming from. Vtubers are a mix of a person and a character, more than a TV/Movie character and actor most of the time anyhow. I would say I agree with some of what Random is saying but disagree with other aspects, like if you seriously think Vtubers are scripted that's legitimately wild.
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:39AM
Dark_Tzitzimine Sep 29, 2021 2:25AM
@Random
I think we all are aware of the fact that ultimately, they're actors. But having the cover of the virtual persona gave them a degree of plausible deniability that let you think "what if is actually real?" Especially with the way Kiara always came off as being legitimately into Calli and girls in general, and even Calli's dere moments worked into it. All of this created a very unique scenario where you could see and interact with fictional characters in a way you rarely see.
But once that Kiara comes out and says that everything is just an act, well, then they're just another streamer for the pile and at least for me, I can no longer see their interactions with each other as anything but just another part of their job.
Oh and your suggestion of "Healthy cynicism" just comes off as being a party pooper that can't see anything without looking for things to smugly say "Is fake". And I think that is such an awful way of living.
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:29AM
Buscoito Sep 29, 2021 2:29AM
@FluffyCow Well then i think i was just enjoying Vtubers in the wrong way i guess, i think i was just convinced by their roles that i tought they were more of themselves on stream, i apologize if i said something wrong and made anyone upset
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:30AM
FluffyCow Sep 29, 2021 2:34AM
@Buscoito You're perfectly fine, and I don't think you were enjoying them in the wrong way. Apologies if I came across as saying that, I didn't mean to sound rude either. I think they ARE to a degree themselves and the character. Who they are on stream and how they blend into their character is a side of them, we're not going to see all the sides of them or know who they are outside of streaming. Which I think is fine personally, and just knowing this has made it so I'm aware that there's these sides to them that we'll never see and it means my immersion is intact. I get what I expect with the streams and the streamer, hopefully this makes sense.
random Sep 29, 2021 2:35AM
^^^to put it bluntly I can only see that as a "you" kind of problem; emotional over-investement in a fantasy that holds a particular appeal to you.
Because that's what it is at the end of the day and allowing yourself to forget that distinction after the latest performance segment has concluded is straight up dangerous. It's the first step down a slope that leads to some very dark places.
Whatever the medium and the skill of the performers it's fundamentally the responsibility of the viewer to distinguish fact from fiction; and the audience most certainly is not entitled to make any demands of the actors outside the role and then get mad when those aren't met.
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 2:36AM
FluffyCow Sep 29, 2021 2:48AM
Ultimately it's kind of interesting to be having this conversation in a way. Since we're all strangers that could be anywhere in the world, we know really nothing about each other. A few thoughts and opinions of each other. Everything we're saying and thinking might not even be conveyed properly, it's difficult to fully get our thoughts across and communicate, how people perceive what we say might be different than how we intend it, and all of this text conversation lacks tone. So I mean this whole conversation we strangers are all having about streamers with character personas on line, is in it's self comically surreal. I just hope nobody feels bad about anything I've said, I have no ill will towards anyone here even if I share different views. I hope everyone is able to enjoy the things like they like. We're just a bunch of people on a strange ball floating in space, all trying to live our lives the best we can haha
random Sep 29, 2021 3:02AM
^errrr... did you hit the bottle and suddenly switch into "soulful old drunk" mode or something? o_O
FluffyCow Sep 29, 2021 3:09AM
^Haha well it's entirely fair to think that, but no. People I know tend to think my way of thinking is a bit unusual, I suppose I find life in general surreal.
Edit: I'm going to hit the hay, have a wonderful night everyone, it was fun chatting. Time to fly through the cosmos of dreams. As the Nursery Rhyme goes, "Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream, Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream".
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 3:49AM
FilthyFlow Sep 29, 2021 4:15AM
Clearly what vtubers should do is adopt personas so absolutely insane that there's no question what they're doing is all an act.
Felx Sep 29, 2021 4:18AM
Did I make an account just for these comment? Nope gonna keep using this one for later. so now, two things
1.like someone said above kiara did give a reason as to why she said that In a only members streams and it is a reason I totally agree with, since I don't know if I should put the reason (and also I still don't know how the spoilers thing works) I ain't gonna say it
2. I think the reason as to why some people are mad isn't so much the fact that they don't separate reality from fiction, I think it's more likely that their ship got "attacked" from one half of it, kiara saying what she said pretty much put a dent in the whole takamori ship and for some people that probably where invested in the ship didn't leave a nice taste
random Sep 29, 2021 4:24AM
^^kek
^...because being that invested in a fiction doesn't indicate issues with separating the real from the make-believe in the first place?
Felx Sep 29, 2021 4:35AM
^ that's an individual problem, invested in fiction, like you said, doesn't mean problem with separating reality with fiction, that there are people that have that issue? Sure, but being invested in something fictional doesn't mean you don't know the difference, if that was the case then I would probably think I am some manga character lol
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 4:35AM
random Sep 29, 2021 4:45AM
^spare me the weird reductio ad absurdum strawmen. Treating something fictional like it was or should be real, and reacting with outrage when it's not because you're so emotionally invested in it, rather strikes me as a fact/fiction separation issue per definitionem.
Vankomycin Sep 29, 2021 4:54AM
Someone busted out their Latin phrasebook for this post I see.
Felx Sep 29, 2021 4:57AM
^^If you're invested in something and it goes in a way you don't like I think it's normal to be upset, like a series you like suddenly becomes bad (game of thrones is a good example of this) or youre a fan of sport and your team is doing bad, it's the same concept, other medium. but let's just agree to disagree let's not make this comment section longer than needed
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 5:00AM
Vankomycin Sep 29, 2021 5:00AM
I think that ship has well and truly sailed already.
Felx Sep 29, 2021 5:01AM
^ let's hope that ship docks then (and I aren't really helping with this comment lmao)
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 5:02AM
Hylarn Sep 29, 2021 5:06AM
You know, I would have thought that Takamori was already clearly an act, what Calli being pretty bad at acting tsundere and nothing happening when they met in person. But here we are anyway
random Sep 29, 2021 11:32AM
@Felx - this is not a question of emotional investement itself but what you're emotionally invested in as has been repeatedly made very clear throughout the debate. As such I'm going to go and accuse you of deliberate bad-faith mischaracterisation of the whole argument.
Your gross false equivalencies are null and void right in the face of it, though it's funny that you attempt to invoke parallels with "traditional" fiction - when at least two people previously have been specifically trying to make the excuse that differences in the medium, structure etc. are somehow so fundamental they magically relieve the audience of the default personal responsibility to distinguish between the real and the fantastic.
Felx Sep 29, 2021 1:40PM
^ oh no I get that part, that someone is responsible for separating reality from fiction, true, the ship is fictional but has a "reality part" if you will, and the best comparison that I can think is the arrow stuff that was discussed above where people can't differentiate reality/fiction I totally understood that, is just that I tried to give another reason as to why people might be mad about the whole thing isn't necessarily about the distinction but the fact even if they are just invested in the fictional part they still got hit since the whole premise was one was in love and the other was a tsundere and all of a sudden one of them gave a reason to stop it, that was why I brought up the being upset part before, I see your point and I don't think that I can explain mine a lot better than this so that's that
last edited at Sep 29, 2021 1:44PM
Flanny Sep 30, 2021 1:40PM
Thank God no one touch OkaKoro...
Otaser Oct 1, 2021 3:34AM
I think the whole confusion and bad feelings comes from the fact that V tubers live in the same space as twitch streamers, just that they have a virtual persona overlaid on them. A lot of people just assume that they're the same, and we're MEANT to believe that, but they're not, V tubers are actors playing someone they are not.
I'll admit that I sort of half fell into that trap too, while I didn't think that Kiara's actually a phoenix or something and I knew that there's a level of disconnect between the character and the person behind it, I did expect there to be something genuine in all of the Vtubers' interactions, and there almost certainly is, which makes for easy confusion. I don't think it's fake when Fauna tells Mumei that she's cute, so why should I be so sure that it's fake when Kiara tells Calli she loves her, right?
Also this might be all the Copium talking but I genuinely still think there's something there, be it that Kiara just likes Calli as a friend or anything. You can't keep your persona up for hours a day if it's entirely fake without it breaking from time to time.
BlueDsc Oct 1, 2021 6:15PM
Calli and Kiara absolutely love each other, it just isn't the romantic love that overzealous shippers want it to be.
whatever42 Oct 2, 2021 10:25PM
^^I mean, it's pretty obvious that Kiara loves Calli as a friend and vice-versa (talking about the RL people here). They've gone over that at great length and in a variety of contexts. Like, Calli nearly shelled out 3,000 dollars on a fancy hotel room for their trip, I don't have any friends close enough that I would do that for them lol. But yeah, there was never any indication that it was romantic IRL.
And TBH, if Kiara's actress did act towards Calli's actress the way Kiara the character acts towards Calli the character, it would be sexual harassment, so we're probably better off that way...
Mckydo Oct 9, 2021 8:44PM
nice.