Unfortunately there are too many variables in this to perfectly predict the outcome. I am rather certain that whoever is controlling the conspirators and Algard has an ace up their sleeve. It would not surprise me if they appear during or after the fight to throw another wrench in the situation. I also do not believe that returning the vampire magicite is the only way to save Lainie, so perhaps even in the case that Algard escapes or gets his magicite taken from him by a third party, Anis may be able to do something for her. Whether it would be through magicology or inserting another magicite into her, I cannot say.

Of course I could simply read the Light Novel, but there is some excitement in helplessly waiting for the resolution weekly too.

On that topic. I honestly thought Algard will just turn out to be a jerk or will have some very selfish motivation for doing all of it, but it was actually very noble. Sure, his methods are not ideal, but I can't even really argue with his reasoning for doing it this way.

I find that hard to agree with honestly. His methods are not just "not ideal", if you take his words at face value and do not assume that the real puppetmaster has a more thought out plan, he truly just said "Might makes right". The idea that simply becoming so powerful that nobody can oppose him will allow him to solve everything is very far down the list of good reasoning.

The political landscape of this kingdom is flawed for sure and Anis magicology is a far better way to even the odds for commoners and nobility. It is clear that the story puts Algard into the position of villain even though him and Anis do not have fundamentally different goals, simply because he is doing it completely wrong. Sacrificing Lainie without hesitation and going as far as to say that he does not feel guilt or remorse about it shows a lack of the symapthy for people that his plan is supposed to be based on. It makes him look like far more of a hypocrite than Anis would be even if she kept dodging responsibility.

That is not to say Algard doesn't have a point about his sister, but his attempt to gaslight her into making it all her fault and to wash his hands clean of his own incompetence and callous actions is revolting. His inferiority complex seems far more integral to the path he took than the mere "bad path paved by good intentions" that he is trying to sell us.

last edited at Feb 25, 2023 3:42AM

As a certified "shiptrash" writer myself, I feel such relief to know that I could still somehow be a worse human being yet.
I believe it is high time for her to write her first yuri work about real people. Perhaps with a self-insert protagonist.

Idk, I’ve read it as, she’s starting to realize her feelings, and now that that’s happening, they’re rapidly expanding, as feelings tend to do. She’s never been very good at keeping her heart to herself, it’s just that she hasn’t had the courage to talk to the guy so he hasn’t seen how she gets. Hiyama, however, constantly approaches her, so she’s constantly forced to confront her crush.

I can agree that there is a difference in approach ultimately, as Hiyama is incredibly vocal about being in love with Kimura and actively pursues her. That in itself could be enough to cause a different reaction.
My only counterpoint would be that Kimura was in fact able to hang out with and talk to the boytoy quite a lot, being on the same comittee and all. But in the few chapters where they did hang out she was far more subdued and at most worried about not being appealing to him. Even when people constantly talked about how Hiyama was a better fit for him, she showed barely any jealousy, but rather just felt like she wanted to be more like Hiyama. Yet now the mere idea that some guy goes after Hiyama makes her break down into an absolute mess and she actively interferes!

All's well in the end. To me this speaks for the idea that ultimately her "crush" on the guy was something superficial, as indeed this is supposed to be her assigned role. Maybe that is too meta, but it does feel like an obligation. Loving Hiyama, that is a feeling all of her own that she developed by constantly being given incentives for.

last edited at Feb 21, 2023 10:20PM

I had stopped hoping for this manga to truly break the cycle of infinite resets, but color me impressed. Reading all of volume 2 has really been fascinating. The breaking point, the turn of the tide, it all came from that one date and dress. It is ironic that the date chapter was the last one I read, yet nobody could have predicted such a turn of events I believe.

Though I am truly glad that Kimura has flipped her switch and is now changing tracks without any breaks, it does feel somewhat... rushed? I may be overly critical with this, so pay it little mind, but during most of the manga the reactions from Kimura's side had been extremely subtle. Overall one could garner an increasing favorability towards Hiyama, but still our Shoujo protagonist seemed to reset anyway. However since the moment when she was sick and it was pointed out that she was so happy about the matching dress she has been in utter nuclear meltdown, in ways that not even her genre assigned male crush had ever done to her. Mind you I like this development, it just feels rather sudden. Truly like a switch was flipped. I suppose this manga never was much about nuance whether it goes in one or the other direction haha

last edited at Feb 21, 2023 11:05AM

Everyone on this is a horrible person. That's the joke.

I think that is not quite true. Most of the "victims"/heroines are actually decent people who just lose their common sense when they get drugged. The only truly unreasonable ones are Itsumi, Ruruka and Kuroshiro (incidentally all in this same chapter).

I agree I can't stand glasses girl. I mean this whole series is basically kinda rapey since she's drugging them with love potions... But I mean straight up what she did after the skirt lift was huge yikes. Yeah I don't think I'd be friends with her anymore after that.

It is especially damning if we consider that Yomotsuka has already showed how it should be done. Despite obviously being rapey when drugged, while she was not under any influence she just straightforwardly pursued Itsumi and made very honest deals with her and ultimately asked for consent when it came to having sex. It is hard to go back to scumback tactics after having such an amazing lover.

I like the glasses girl. I don't think molesting someone is worse than drugging them and then molesting them, and I already like Itsumi. I think I'd find her a lot less amusing if she wasn't doing this to someone who regularly molests people herself.

I would have to agree that Itsumi by all means gets her fair share of bad karma for her actions (let us not forget that this entire chapter's premise is her wishing to punish a man who got dragged into her schemes without having any idea what is going on and takes it up the butt like a champ apparently). One of the main writing techniques applied to this manga is dramatic comeuppance or irony. Itsumi does something scummy and it backfires on her.

The reason why this time it does not feel right is most likely that the karmic retribution generally tends to come without such intent or at least from the person who was wronged. Ruruka actively pushing Itsumi and molesting her against her will feels simply predatory and scummy even though she has no karmic reason to deserve payback. In fact all the chapters focused on her tend to reverse the roles and make her the scumback that gets her comeuppance.

I remember reading the original one-shot and feeling not much of anything, so I did not give the adaptation a chance when I saw it first published. Now I feel nothing but anger at my past self for denying me this absolute gem over superficial impressions. This story is so well paced and enjoyable that I felt giddy all the way through.

Usually I don't consider myself an art critic, I have no eye for such things. A story's strongest merit for me will always be the writing. And yet... this manga most definitely has the best expressions in any manga I have read in the last years. Certainly there are comedic series with exaggerated expressions, but this manga makes it all seem to natural, cute, impactful! You can tell every emotion so perfectly and the shifts are amazing. When it comes to facial expressions and sense for anatomy, I think this author is top of the genre right now. Kudos.

I'm wondering if the love potion only works on the people you already have romantic feelings for, or alternatively could reasonably have feelings for.

I doubt that it involves already being in love, as some of the victims barely knew Itsumi at all and had no reason to be crushing on her. My hope and interpretation is indeed that the love potion cannot affect your sexuality. It would be quite ironic if the teacher she orginally had a "crush" on just happens to be gay which is why he reacted to the other teacher rather than the girls. It has been shown that he shows absolutely zero interest in girls and women, which just gets stamped off as him being very reserved, but if he was simply gay it would make a lot more sense.

In the same vein this also means that every girl who has been involved with the love potion is at the very least bisexual. A few of them like the president or the yankee and of course Ruruka are a given as they already expressed that they are into women. The rest could follow suit.
Of course that means Itsumi herself is also into girls, though we figured that one out by the time she willingly had sex with prez.

last edited at Feb 21, 2023 11:17AM

I am more glad this is a mindless comedy the more the story goes on.

last edited at Oct 1, 2022 7:53AM

Is this what they call "projection"? You're the one who decided to invoke comparisons to het in the first place, if you're not knowledgeable enough to back up your own assertions maybe stop making them?

No, I would call this a poor reading of what I said on your part.
I just told you that I know my way around het, it is just not something I care about nearly as much. You made the automatic assumption that I am "one of those people who don't read or watch het" to discredit my viewpoint. Thus I was pointing out that just because it is obvious that people on Dynasty are not interested in het in the majority, it doesn't mean that I am not knowledgable about it.
Did me just telling you that I can give you a list of 100 forever season 1 het anime that dont end conclusively fly over your head? Anyway, I know your style and this will not register for you. Moving on.

AFAIK a lot of early yuri was tragic. And don't get me wrong, I love dramatic shoujo here and there (Ai Yazawa is one of my favorite mangaka ever) but I'm talking more about bubblegum romance here. Otherwise... I'll give you that the "princely girl" came from shoujo but more often than not she's not even gay. Ouran High School Host Club gave a "prince" character a reverse harem. I wouldn't consider them a gender swap either though I'm sure they've been used that way.

Yes indeed, the tragic yuri tropes come from the Class S roots. It is unfortunate, but that was the style at the time. The conceit of Class S was after all that relationships between girls are doomed to be just a phase, fated for an eventual parting to move on to a man. So the only possible way to keep the romance intact without that would be tragedy. Lovers suicides are especially... "popular" during that era.

You cited a het anime as an example of the princely girl not being gay. Impressive. But I am talking about the application of that trope in yuri. And it is fairly rare in het works to begin with (note: not non-existant of course, I could obviously cite Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun where a princely type is in love with a boy), because it serves almost no purpose, unlike in the early Shoujo-inspired yuri where the role reversal was needed to draw female readers in with the familiar. The line between bishounen and "ikemen" girl is blurry to a lot of Shoujo fans.

I don't believe AdaShima has face sitting but I was definitely thinking about it when discussing dragged out LN. And going through an exhaustive list of yuri tropes was never my intention either; that's a conversation for a different thread. As far as Class S though I'd assume people still consider Maria-sama ga Miteru yuri, which was pretty much pure Class S. It casts a really, really long shadow over modern yuri, though at least the more problematic implications of Class S were lost to time, though I don't want to diminish what it was for its time here either.

Most Light Novels are not porn, so yes, AdaShima has no such escalation haha
And while it is dragged out, that is sort of its defining feature. It is the slowburn of slowburns and even then they have Adachi acknowleding she may be in love with Shimamura at the end of Volume 1, have the confession scene in Volume 6 and start dating in Volume 7 so it is not nearly as bad as it could be.

Maria-sama ga miteru is THE defining turning point from old-school Class S into proper yuri. It is the worst possible example to pick in this context to be quite honest. Rather than being "pure" Class S it is the work that shook up most of the genre's conventions and irrepairably upended this cesspit of the past. Class S even at its peak was never good. It was a very potent mirror of Japanese culture though and at least historically and for the sake of analyses it serves its purpose.

Being firends before being lovers is literally what 90% of Japanese romance is like though.

...but you just admitted het isn't your focus in a previous paragraph so you're basically pulling numbers out of your ass. And you don't like examples either so I'm not sure how to respond here. If your point is that 90% of yuri romances start as friendship that's basically my criticism of the genre and why I'm talking about its roots in Class S and relationships that overemphasize friendship in the first place.

Absolutely not, I refer you back to what I said at the start of this reply. I find it pointless to throw around a bunch of names for a point this self-evident... Do you honestly deny that in most het romance stories many characters start out as friends or as strangers that become friends and THEN lovers (unless it is a harem story in which case there will never be a definitive conclusion)? There are some exceptions where a romantic pursuit from stranger status is the focus or where the story begins with a relationship already established (though this is just as rare as in yuri sadly).

It feels like you're just trying to derail and score some internet points here but the discussion I thought we were having was 'subtext vs bait vs slow burn' and because I know yuri relationships have historically been a 'road to nowhere' the burden is IMO on the slow burn to prove its going to be different. If it can't really do that in one anime season I just don't see it any different than bait, though Class S is probably a better label.

I am starting to think that your claims of projection came from a very self-reflective place because that first implication is just so awfully off. Please try to contain that.

Yuri being historically a road to nowhere is false. Plain and simple. Class S is not really yuri and that is the only piece of history where the inconclusive/bait ending is the norm. So which stories do you believe go nowhere? A slowburn by default is a story that is decidedly headed towards a yuri conclusion, subtext is not. Subtext is just a possibility of yuri, much like there is romantic subtext in het shows that may or may not go anywhere. The reason I have to keep making the comparison to het (or BL) is because you keep acting like this is a feature endemic to the yuri genre.

There are no modern Class S works with any kind of presence thankfully, so please do not get it confused. Bait is bait, subtext is subtext, Class S is a dead genre. At most there are those works which purposely play with Class S tropes to defy them (The FLOWERS visual novel series is a prime example).

I know very little about BL (aside from some BL bait here and there) but I got the impression rivalries were a more common basis for a relationship than friendship. Maybe I was mistaken.

Rivals to lovers is a very popular BL trope, though friendships turning to love are just as common. Surprisingly the "bromance" aspect is what leaks out the most into mainstream haha

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@protectmomo

I would not agree at all that there is "no shortage of yuri content". You always have to apply a proper standard first. Compared to het and BL works, yuri has an insignificantly small pool to draw from.

Hmm, I'm not sure this is true. I have no idea about manga because I don't generally keep up with het manga, but there's a small enough amount of anime each season that I try to keep tabs on everything airing, and in terms of anime I think that the pool of "yuri" is actually quite close to het, if you're counting subtext and bait, because every season has numerous CGDCT, idol, etc anime and I think the majority of them do yuri bait.

This... sounds really off to me. That would have to be an entirely different standard for yuri between us I suppose.
No, I cannot automatically include CGDCT, Idol and magical girl shows as yuri. That is preposterous to me. Even if there was mild subtext (and that is what most of these shows have at most), it would not even be solid enough to be confirmed, so how can it be a proper yuri show? It more often than not is a [insert genre] show with a yuri subtext/subplot facette. In the opposite way almost every anime would be a het anime then, would it not? Most anime even outside the romance genre have het relationships in them, so you see the issue. This just compounds the problem and brings us back to the beginning, unless you apply a double standard to the genres.

In no way can it ever be justified that het and yuri have an equal output in ANY medium. It is simply not possible. This thread, nay, this community struggles to pick up any crumbs of yuri from each anime season every year, yet you will never have to dig for het works. There are always going to be explicit ones aplenty and lots of side-romance in others. And yes, this issue is far greater in manga, as there are more manga published than anime can possibly produced, naturally. Same for LNs and VNs.

Finally BL has not that many anime under its belt either, but they are about on par with explicit yuri shows anyway. And if you dive into any other medium in Japan, fujoshis have it completely flooded with their influence without a doubt.

last edited at Oct 1, 2022 7:33AM

To be an unsatisfying anime is still the series shortcoming. If you're the type of person to pick up an LN series after watching the anime that's your prerogative, many of us aren't so the anime is the only opinion we have of a series. If its not particularly compelling in its early going -- again it just doesn't matter what happens in LN volume 7.

Yes, well, that is certainly your own personal issue then. There is nothing more to say here.

In fairness to Otherside Picnic the adaptation was a bit butchered. I actually kind of tried to read the series but didn't really enjoy it enough to stick with it. There are series I get into here and there; yuriwise I loved ILTV and enjoyed Sexiled but the odds of me picking up an LN series are still pretty slim.

I agree on Otherside Picnic. I honestly have no idea why they changed the order of things so haphazardly. There are plenty of cases where LNs/manga are just superior to their anime adaptations anyway, so it is usually better to go for the source material first. The anime is merely an advertisment to hook readers at that point.

There are rarely any anime that are definitive within 12 episodes. If such things get rated highly, then it is simply because anime onlies are desperate for conclusions, which makes a lot of sense of course.

Um... are you one of the people who doesn't really watch or read het romance? Because your assertion makes no fucking sense otherwise. Off the top of my head there's Kokoro Connect, Tsuki Ga Kirei, Horimiya, Bakemonogatari, VN adaptations like ef, and I'm sure a lot more that I can't think of. Yeah, two cour is a lot more to work with but that's also a lot more room for a love triangle or an amnesia subplot or some such.

I am sorry, this is Dynasty, is it not? I may have experience with het works, sure, but it is obviously not a focus of mine. That being said, your exceptions don't matter. I could make a list of 100 het romance anime that are not complete in a 12 episodes season. Even more if we add non-romance focused ones. What does throwing around names prove? As usual I have to note that you have tunnel vision. And it appears to me that you are far more knowledgable about het works than yuri every time we talk. Not that this is a flaw or anything, enjoy what you will. It just means that often you seem to be hyper-focused on the things you are familiar with over a broader perspective.

Nothing about Kase-san is intentionally Shoujo manga like. Not any more than most Yuri manga are, as Yuri is tacitly an off-shoot of Shoujo manga to begin with.

Hmm... that's not completely wrong but sort of misleading. Yuri has relatively little in common with shoujo romance and was built more on amplifying female friendships that existed in shoujo and especially class S. Kase-san is more in line with typical shoujo romance.

Yuri has little to do with Shoujo romance? Except a majority of early yuri manga used Shoujo tropes, Shoujo artstyles and dynamics. The distinction only came about slowly. I suppose there are two schools of thought there of course, one being Shoujo-like yuri and the other being Class S style yuri, both birthing different aspects of the genre. But tropes like the "handsome school prince" who pins girls against walls and crossdresses etc. are 100% steeped in Shoujo origins, where the girl first and foremost had to replace the role of the boy.

In your previous comment you asserted what you consider the "bedrock" of yuri works, but you failed to mention any of the dynamics that are part of this side. Beyond the more recent "gyaru x shy glasses girl" tropes that you brought up, there have been the "Onee-sama/garden of lillies" works or the "tomboy x sheltered lady" pairings etc.

Nobody thinks Class S is actually yuri these days (I hope) and no yuri LNs I know of are this insipidly stretched out as you claim (with the exceptions being those which dont actively focus on romance and... AdaShima, but just because AdaShima is a unique case of Iruma's madness).

Being friends before being lovers can be limiting when it comes to romantic tension, I guess that's the crux of why I think yuri kind of has a variety problem. I also don't really know how to quantify an LN series that is 6 volumes of friend zone with a final volume of "please sit on my face". I'll take the face sitting but I guess I'm just generally not fond of class S. It kind of feels like a relic from another time.. which I guess it actually is.

Being firends before being lovers is literally what 90% of Japanese romance is like though. Slowburns are the standard when it comes to romance, particularly in manga where the editor forces the mangaka to drag the story out as much as possible. Het is far more symptomatic of this than BL and Yuri actually, it is just that the expression of said friendship is always way hornier and the girls tend to be vying for affection regardless of relationship status. Yuri's slowburns take more time for the realization of romantic feelings on average, though, that much I agree with. And BL... well BL is a different beast entirely. Aggressive progress is the norm.

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@protectmomo

You are just saying the conventions of romance stories drag down romance stories' pacing. I am shocked, shocked I say!

It doesn't have to be that way, though. Just because it's the norm doesn't mean it's not worth complaining about. Lonely Girl is by far one of my biggest favourites in recent years, precisely because it has none of that. That's not to say it doesn't use many of the tropes we've all become familiar with, but the tropes are usually used to push things forward rather than back. They were already making out and cuddling from the start and we got several entire volumes after they officially started dating. I want more of that in my life. Like, 100000x more of that. You can tell romance stories about people who are a couple. It's possible! It really is!

Naturally, it doesn't (and perhaps shouldn't) have to be this way. I was merely pointing out that this is the norm, the convention and that saying "It only happens if you include the things that most things include" is a pointless observation. Tropes are not innately an issue, it is the skill of the writer and how they use it that defines a work. YagaKimi avoids most tropes, making it a universally enjoyable work, meanwhile AnoKiss steeps itself in tropes, but it is enjoyable because it revels in its melodrama unabashedly.

As for the idea of starting a romance in the couple stage, this is obviously great and has been done well before (Hana ni Arashi is a great example), but it requires a much tighter handle on the characters and conflicts. The chase, the build-up and the gratification of the romantic pursuit are inherently easier to invest an audience in. There is a clear "end" goal that the plot progesses towards. This structural advantage can never be understated.

My compromise is to have it all. Start with proper build up to a relationship... and then don't stop. For when you had time to establish the cast properly before the romance, it is easier to create a contrast that makes the second half all the more fresh.

Also,

as yuri fans in particular are desperate for content.

It's funny, isn't it? Because there's no shortage of "yuri" content. There is absolutely tons of "yuri". But there's so little that actually delivers, leaving us all hungry for more. For lack of a better word, being a fan of yuri feels like being in a perpetual state of being blueballed for years and years and years without end. Probably why my patience for what I perceive to be bait is so low at this point... especially since, in the manga sphere if not in anime, we actually have made a lot of progress over the decades in how forward writers are willing to be.

I would not agree at all that there is "no shortage of yuri content". You always have to apply a proper standard first. Compared to het and BL works, yuri has an insignificantly small pool to draw from. Your issue about quality goes hand in hand with that. The rule of "90% of all fiction is garbage" applies unilaterally, meaning that if you have 100 yuri works, 10 may be decent or good. But you have 1000 het works, so 100 may be decent or good in comparison. This leads to the disparity.

That being said, I find yuri overall has a much higher quality rate than het or BL, so that is the only advantage of the genre. Maybe there are 20 in 100 works that are decent instead. Still not great, but alas...

last edited at Sep 28, 2022 5:51AM

Lots of replies to stuff I wrote but I have nothing new to add to the conversation because my mind is currently being blown by Birdie Wing. I have no idea how I overlooked this one.

I am glad you enjoy it. It is without a doubt a hidden gem among this year's anime releases and thankfully already renewed for a second season.

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I will be charitable and assume that you did not just equate any of the slowburns you or me listed as bait.

Depends on which ones, but generally what happens in volume 7 of an LN doesn't really matter for an anime only watcher. I don't consider them much different especially when the romance isn't in the forefront like in Executioner and Otherside. And Symphogear always aimed to be Schrödinger's yuri.

This is a poor definiton of "bait" then in my opinion. Is an adventure anime "adventure bait" because the final villain is not defeated by the end of season 1? Of course not, it is a work in progress with the obvious intention of a resolution. The same goes for romance anime that don't get a second season. Why is it bait when the intrinsic idea is that by the end romantic feelings will perservere?

No, bait should be - even if not nefarious by default - something that obviously flirts with yuri themes, but has no intention to ever deliver on them. Let us forget about the original bait and switch definition that requires a derailment into het and simply treat bait as the word suggests... something to attract a certain type of viewer's interest. It is something that gets attention, much like an anime that has a incredibly obvious shock factor scene in the first episode to attract the "edgy" demographic, but then swerves into 11 more episodes of generic fantasy/SOL/mystery. Yuribait is often just the promise of something gay happening with no actual plans to go there. But once they hooked that audience in they have already won, as yuri fans in particular are desperate for content. To not conflate this with subtext in general, sometimes romantic themes are just not that relevant to a story in the first place, so subtext is the extend of what it cares to show, but then it is almost never used as bait to begin with as it is too minor to attract people from the start.

Executioner and Otherside Picnic make very clear early on that the romantic tension between the main characters is both intentional and endgame. There may be twists and turns that make it not always as clear-cut, but the point is that a faithful adaptation is setting up the romantic parts the same way the source material did, which means it is genuine in it's delivery, unlike bait. To be an "anime only" is the audience's own shortcoming in this particular case. It is nearly foolish in this day and age to expect an adaptation to complete a story in an industry that purposely picks on-going series as their targets.

I don't think I agree with that at all; what usually drags things out are harems, love triangles, or in yuri roadblocks like "but we're both girls!" I guess there's meme manga that somehow gets 3 seasons like Rent-A-Girlfriend but that's not exactly the norm. The more memorable and/or highest rated het romances are usually pretty definitive over 12 or 24 episodes, especially if they're adaptations of shoujo.

You are just saying the conventions of romance stories drag down romance stories' pacing. I am shocked, shocked I say!

There are rarely any anime that are definitive within 12 episodes. If such things get rated highly, then it is simply because anime onlies are desperate for conclusions, which makes a lot of sense of course. 24 episodes are also a much different standard. Yagate Kimi ni Naru could easily be completely adapted within two seasons. It's a fairly normal length. But 12? As we have seen that is not possible. Het shows enjoy a broader audience and thus get more chances to be renewed for another season, especially lowly ahem... bait for lonely teenagers who need a certain type of self-insert fantasy (I am desperate not to use the I-word here).

I've always been partial to Kase-san because its basically a shoujo manga with two girls.

Nothing about Kase-san is intentionally Shoujo manga like. Not any more than most Yuri manga are, as Yuri is tacitly an off-shoot of Shoujo manga to begin with. Kase-san's tropes and framework are pretty strongly based in general yuri conventions. I cannot say whether your perception of Shoujo is awfully specific or if you just happen to have avoided certain types of yuri branches.

Yuri actually tends to be sort of formulaic; its really heavy on themes of self discovery and it always kind of comes back to classic trope pairings like 'meek kouhai X disaster senpai' or 'gyaru X plainy' -- though occasionally something like Citrus will mix it up a bit where its gyaru X disaster senpai. And don't get me wrong I enjoy it but there's something to be said for stuff that's gay but detached from some of the tropes that are the bedrock of yuri as a genre.

This is a meaningless discovery I fear. The same can be said about any romance story. Het romance has it's repetitive tropes, BL has its repetitive tropes. Yuri is nothing special in that regard. The majority of all fiction is "formulaic" or the much more popular term of recent decades "generic".

last edited at Sep 27, 2022 10:44AM

I find this take somewhat odd, as since 2018 we had anime adaptations of Yagate Kimi ni Naru, Adachi To Shimamura, Machikado Mazoku, Manaria/Mysteria Friends, the final season of Symphopgear, The Executinor and her way of life, and original gems like Birdie Wing (if we are just talking about yuri/subtext shows mind you

I think production committees prefer slow burn yuri (bait) that doesn't really lead to anything over the course of a season. Otherside Picnic, Executioner, and Adachi and Shimamura... even Symphogear took its time to give us unprotected hand holding. Seems like its been a while since I've seen yuri kisses animated. And then there's some stuff like Aquatope where I didn't see it as yuri at all.

I will be charitable and assume that you did not just equate any of the slowburns you or me listed as bait.
Romance in general tends to be like this, however. Be it yuri, BL or het, most romance focused works will take their time. There are hundreds of season 1s awaiting their continuation that will never arrive, completely ending without any satisfying conclusion (at least in the anime adaptation). To get from 0 to 100 within 12 episodes (or less) would either require an unfaithful adaption or a source material that was rather short itself. Unsurprisingly the popular ones tend to be longer form, though, which means the ones being picked for an adaptation tend to be slowburns.

As for yuri kisses, they do happen fairly regularly, just not always in yuri focused works. A good example of that would be last year's Gekidol, which by no means is a yuri focused work, but did have a serious kiss between two girls.

For me Machikado Mazoku and LycoReco are satisfying in a way a lot of other series aren't though, I'm not really sure why. Momo/Shamiko and Chisato/Takina are really individually likable, and they've got great supporting casts I guess... I dunno really.

I cannot speak for Lycoris Recoil, because I put it on the backburner for later, but at least Machikado Mazoku thrives by being simply one of the best Kirara manga regardless of its romance aspect. It is criminally underrated on every level. That does of course not mean I disagree about ShamiMomo at all. Their development is slowburn, but incredibly good. Though we have not gotten to an explicit kiss or the dating stage yet (and I suspect those will only happen at the very end (should Ito not die beforehand)), their romantic chemistry is perfectly executed and permeates into every fiber of the plot itself.
I believe a manga/anime that can stand on its own plot, but can also keep a romance meaningfully integrated is the best.

---

Something I'd note is that once you get out of the realm of harem power fantasies, Japanese productions in general don't feel the need to shove in a romance subplot the way American ones tend to. 'We'll just leave it implied' is something I've seen happen to het pairings, too

This however I cannot confirm myself. Nearly every anime ever made has romance in it in some form, barring perhaps some kids shows or Shounen anime. Rather than "implied" the most common version is just that this plot point goes nowhere or gets resolved at the end without build up.

last edited at Sep 26, 2022 7:41AM

Well, this is probably good advice, although at this point this basically rules out watching anime for me. Feels like the entire medium has driven off a cliff over the past few years. Every season, it's the exact same thing

I find this take somewhat odd, as since 2018 we had anime adaptations of Yagate Kimi ni Naru, Adachi To Shimamura, Machikado Mazoku, Manaria/Mysteria Friends, the final season of Symphopgear, The Executinor and her way of life, and original gems like Birdie Wing (if we are just talking about yuri/subtext shows mind you, there is more in other categories that aren't relevant to this community, like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure which, if anything, is one of the most creative uses of anime as a medium I have ever seen. Same can be said of Mob Psycho 100 and the like). There is an unfathomable mountain of low quality generic material, but there always has been. Whether you go to 2006, 2016 or 2022, there will always be far more unwatchable content than decent one.

My take is that so often we start to take fewer risks, dismiss series more quickly and grow saturated with tropes to the point where enjoyment withers. But I always shirk away from claims of an objective decline in imagination or variety. The amount of anime produced every year does push the industry to its limits and there are issues with animators having to cut corners no doubt. But for every generic harem show we get incredibly odd cases of anime that are clearly passion projects or elevated by the source material.

This story bears a striking resemblance to an old popular het romance manga called Kami nomi zo shiru sekai. In that story the protagonist Katsuragi Keima had to exorcize "runaway spirits" that settled between the "gaps in the heart" of girls by making them fall in love with him. Instead of an angel side-kick, his was a demon girl. Demons mostly had the job to hunt those spirits and capture them, they were more or less the good guys. The possessed girls were unaware of their situation just like the ones in this manga and sometimes developed abilities or dangerous effects too.

The main differences seem to be that in this manga a kiss is all that is needed and that the girls remember the kiss, while in Kaminomi the girls forgot the events surrounding their falling in love with the protagonist conveniently (thus avoiding a harem setting for most of the run until it didn't). If the locket's pattern is an indication of how many girls need to be kiss-healed then I would say this story will run into a similar problem where the harem would grow too massive. I wonder how that will be addressed.

Speaking of the locket, I seem to have missed why exactly Azuma is required to use it in the first place. Lyriel is allegedly a wellspring of life energy and has done this for a while, so why does she suddenly require a human assistant to smooch girls in her place? I suppose it is implied that as long as Azuma wears the locket life force could be transfered into both directions, but then why did Lyriel act like she is experienced with dispelling the curses if she always required a human to do it for her?

Naturally this may be way too much thought for a manga that appears to mostly care about just making girls kiss - circumstances are just an unimportant factor in the equation. As a premise I find it a bit too one-dimensional even compared to the classic het manga I mentioned at the beginning, but the humor is relatively consistent and Lyriel is such an unapologetically thirsty lesbian that I definitely will give this a shot just for the hijinks alone.

last edited at Sep 25, 2022 11:51AM

Akai Ito and Aoi shiro will receive a HD remaster for Switch and PC.
An english language support is planned.

https://www.gematsu.com/2022/09/akai-ito-aoi-shiro-hd-remaster-announced-for-switch-pc

I had just started Aoi shiro. I think I'll put it on hold for a while. The english translation is correct, but to have a translation for the menu and the dictionnary is a good news.

Those are excellent news. After recently finishing Aoi Shiro I am glad to hear Akai Ito will be completely translated as well. I can finally add it to the list once that happens.

For now I added a few more items to the list outside of that.

The OSTs are probably my second favorite part of Flowers. Sugina Miki's art firmly holds that top spot, however.

When it comes to the art of FLOWERS I have seen very polarizing views. I find myself in the middle. The art itself is absolutely gorgeous, especially the background images, the nearly painting like details in some cases are absolutely perfect for immersion. The character sprites are also very high quality, if a bit lacking in varied expressions.

What is lacking from my perspective is actually the design direction itself. Characters don't look distinct enough with some notable exceptions (e.g. Erika and Yuzuriha). The characters all suffer from same face syndrome and if zoomed in sometimes are almost impossible to tell apart on a glance, which any artist can tell you is not a good thing. I don't think hair should be the only distinction, it is a weakness that a lot of more generic anime art suffers from, which I find odd for a series like FLOWERS that is generally very distinct.

For Automne... I'm once again going to set Tota Pulchra Es aside in favor of Memoire. Don't get me wrong, I love the vocal tracks dearly, but I feel like the way some of these background themes resonate with me, with the story, pull everything together so well. That melancholy feeling of days past...

Memoire is actually my favorite of Automne as well, what a coincidence. There is something to be said about the beauty of vocal tracks no doubt, but I almost consider it cheating to go for them (especially when they are pre-existing pieces rather than originally composed like Fairy Wreath).

When I selected Allium as my overall favorite I did not even take into consideration how the music benefits the scenes it is played in or how it serves a narrative function, I was honestly just speaking from the heart which piece moved me the most. With this kind of ranking system we could go in circles forever honestly, like comparing all 4 Volume's remixes of the main tracks and rank those, but I feel it to be a bit pointless. They do all try to convey different meanings to suit their season.

The general impact of the OSTs can't be denied. It is a wholly memorable selection that actually stuck with me and evokes nostalgia somehow, despite me having played the entire series in under a year's time. There is nothing to be nostalgic about, yet I find myself reminiscing over the series like it was a big chunk of my life itself each time I hear its music. That is the power of the composition that consistently excelled and set the mood. Although I can't claim to remember even half of the humorously bad French song titles, I can always recognize the music itself and associate it with a scene or place.
The seclusion of the setting and story in its own world somehow combined with the tracks and creates an oddly comfortable space in my head. It's almost dissociative in its power to separate me from reality and draw me back into Saint Angreacum.

FInally some room to breathe again. I added a few more VNs to the list. I especially recommend "Who is the Red Queen?" Studio Elan has not disappointed me yet. Although this one really leans into the horror, so it is not for everyone.

In other news I have been playing a lot of Heaven Burns Red. Of course it would be erroneous to call it a Visual Novel per se, but it's plot is basically structured like one in every way due to Key Studio's involvement no doubt. It surprised me for having a good plot and polish despite being a Gacha game. It also has plenty of both implied and spelled out yuri elements. If you can read Japanese or have some translation software I recommend trying out the Steam version.

---

Now, for another few of my favorite bits of Hiver as promised. These are just random things that I found interesting.

If you 100% the game and unlock the 4komas (which I assume are canon).... we figure out that the twincest ending of Automne is canon and runs parallel to the true ending. There is not a single hint of this in Hiver's actual plot, so this caught me incredibly off-guard.
Here is the 4koma in question (which I seriously had to screenshot, because I cant find it anywhere on the web (I am not loading the image on this page, because spoilers. Just click the link, I swear it's not a virus))
https://i.imgur.com/DEbFn3q.png

This may just be my favorite moment in Hiver and shows why Mayuri should have been around far earlier. Rikka really has her own triangle now just like Lilification mentioned about the 20th Anniversary special elaborated on. If only we could have seen more of that instead of her thirdwheeling Suoh/Mayuri so hard.
https://i.imgur.com/3QgCrSp.png

Finally, this is the best musical piece in all of FLOWERS bar none and yes, I am including the vocal songs in that list. I can't believe how amazing this track is. It makes me feel every emotion of the series at once. That violin violates my emotional core and plays my heart like a string.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3jH0_sEayI

In general I believe the OST is not discussed enough. For example the fact that a lot of the mainstay tracks appear in every volume, but are always slightly remixed. If you dont listen to them right after each other you may never even notice, but they have subtle variations that evoke different moods for each installment. I only figured it out when I listened to a compilation of all music in the series in one go. Why is this series so amazing?

last edited at Aug 17, 2022 4:50PM

Rather than talking about treatment of Japanese women in general, it focuses on highly specific topics like how the generally accepted traditional Japanese definition of love (both romantic and parental love) had changed under the influence of Christian mission in Japan and came to be viewed as the path of personal growth and betterment. Does this sound familiar? wink wink

The reach of Christian principles in Japan is often highly overstated. Even in the early times of open ports and borders, Taoism and Shintoism were overhwelmingly more far spread and dominant as a cultural seedbed and continued to be such. Then during the 200 years of isolation Western influences mostly only spread in certain ports that continued trade with the rest of the world and whithered as a subversion to the established culture. The true Christian influence only came back with the reopening to the world before WW1.

It also talks a lot about the birth of class S and its politics, about how it was tied to Japanese early feminist movement. It pretty much explains where exactly all those tropes came from and why they were so common and popular back then, popular to the point of making Nobuko Yoshiya one of the, if not the wealthiest pre-war writer in Japan. And it also has a whole chapter dedicated to Nobuko Yoshiya's "Two Virgins in the Attic"

I am fairly familiar with both Class S' cultural basis and Nobuko Yoshiya's works. I am also highly critical of both, but alas, it's pointless to get upset about the means of the past when we live in the present shaped by their results.

@Licentious Lantern

Rather than Amitie system itself, I was thinking about how incredibly tightly-knit they all became as a group. They became each other's kindred sisters and these bonds will connect them for their entire lives.

That's nothing that unusual for any setting like this with a group that goes through "adventures" together and becomes a community.

I also never really interpreted Rikka's feelings for Suoh as fully romantic, because she never expresses them as romantic (she says "Thank you for accepting me as a friend" in her ending in Printemps). It's a mix of almost narcissistic admiration, adoration and strong, but never fully realized romantic undertones, which is a common theme for class S. After all, it's what it was — those were stories written in a time period when it was impossible to write about same-sex romantic love openly without society labelling it as abnormal. That's why the writers of class S had consciously used this whole framework of it being "pure" and "education" (yes, seriously) phase that was vitally important for the spiritual growth of adolescent girls.
That's why the lily never blooms in Rikka End in Printemps. It just cannot end this way. She is the "past," not the "future" Suoh wants to move forward to.

I am aware of Class S and the problematic beginnings of yuri, so you aren't shocking me with the latter half there, but I cannot in any shape or from agree that Rikka's feelings are anything but romantic. Maybe in Printemps you can see it as confusion from a troubled child that clings to Suoh in desperation, but it would be outright foolish to ignore every single hint that gets thrown our way in the following three Volumes. I always found it strange how neither of them ever acknowledges the horrible blackmailing incident, but it seemed like they moved past it (or more accurately the writer wanted to forget it happened).
But the fact that Rikka and Suoh technically dated for a week or two is referenced only very sparingly and only by outsiders like Erika. That's why she uses Rikka as an example of someone who is "seriously" into women during Ete and Rikka never denies it. Similarily the entire cast (who dont know Suoh is still chasing Mayuri) also basically openly ships Rikka and Suoh and constantly tease Rikka about her obvious romantic affection. Especially Chidori who never even knew Mayuri. To an outsider like her it is inherently obvious that Rikka has feelings for Suoh and she always encourages them to get closer.
But I am now certain for a fact that Suoh is keenly aware of Rikka's feelings as well and purposely ignores them/uses it to keep her tied to herself. This final proof came in form of one subtle moment in Hiver. During the Valentine's scene where they exchange chocolate. Suoh is definitely aware of what Rikka wants and how she feels, but her inner monologue acknowledges that she avoids Rikka's feelings and doesn't cross the line.
That being said, her Printemps ending sucks anyway and felt super tacked on. And in Hiver she has fully accepted her role as the third wheel and even outright says that Suoh and Mayuri belong together and that she will only be happy if they are. It's just a bit too close for comfort with her, basically leaving no breathing room for the couple from what little we saw, which makes it feel a bit off. Hopefully Tsuwabuki will get through to her before graduation...

Mind you whether the yuri blooms or not is usually not connected to whether there is a romantic outcome or not in the games.

I wonder if you read this thing. If you didn't, I urge you to give it a go. I initially read it a long ago, so I don't really remember if there's a way to get if for free legally (maybe via university online libraries). I simply bought a digital version.

I'm afraid not and I can't imagine the material to be all that fascinating to me personally. From a historical context I am rather well versed in the treatment of women across Japan's medieval up to WW2 period.

I see. So you relate to the Suoh x Erika shipper, color me surprised! :P

Oh, no, I ain't no SuoEri shipper, heh. Well, I think that it's cute, but that's all. I was implying other things that this post talks about.

I was merely continuing the joke from your previous comments~

But on a more serious note...
To keep it brief, EriSuoh is not a good idea imo. Not just because EriChido is just objectively superior (although it is!), but because both Suoh and Erika need complementary partners, not mirrors. Suoh and Erika cannot help each other grow. If they had started dating around Printemps ~ Ete it would have stunted both of their personal growth and insulated them. A cynic like Erika is best served with a foil of someone exceptionally grounded and dominant like Chidori who will bite back when needed, but also see past the snark. Chidori is the one who pulls Erika along to do things she had given up on due to low self-esteem. If Suoh the wallflower who is lost in her own head most of the time had been her partner then Erika and her would have just drifted off further into a dreamworld. Similar things can be said about Suoh and Mayuri bringing out the best in each other.

last edited at Jul 21, 2022 2:09AM

@Licentious Lantern
So... My reply has been in the making for three days now and will still take at least as much time to be fully ready for shipping. Partially it's because I don't have free time and energy for writing a proper response in a short timeframe which I'd be satisfied with myself. Partially, though, I needed some time to gather my thoughts, because I've decided to radically change my approach to constructing and presenting my argumentation.

By all means, take your time. Just because I am a fool who posts the first thing that comes to mind doesn't mean people need to stoop to my level. (No this is not sarcasm, I really mean it. Copious amounts of typos that I had to edit out prove my shortcomings haha...)
This conversation is not under a time limit~

There is a point of interest that I wish to talk about separately though.
Say, would you be willing to believe me if I told you I was absolutely ready to sell my kidney for charity if I lost a bet I had made with myself prior to Hiver's release? Which bet? That the finale of the series would have a tragic "esu" love story which "happened a long time ago" incorporated into it. This was the only upfront expectation I had for Hiver. And I'm so inhumanly glad that I was right on the mark.

It is a pretty popular Class S trope.

Oh, and another thing actually. I have a peculiar impression that the deconstruction of class S in Flowers was something of a dialogue, a "negotiation" rather that just "deconstruction". I don't really know why I want to call it that way. It feels to me that even if in the very end Flowers defies and denies negative aspects of class S, it takes out of it something positive, powerful and joyful, something that I didn't see presented in any other class S-themed yuri work to that extent: community, sisterhood. I'd say that even Maria-sama ga miteru isn't that committed to that aspect of the genre, because it pays a huge attention to senpai-kohai relationship model instead. But Flowers gifted me with sisterhood of peers, of equals, and I will forever be grateful for this gift.

Hmm, I see your point. Although I was slightly irritated by it (irrational as I am), the way the story always focuses on "my Amitie partner this, my Amitie that" and makes it clear that it sees this system as a valuable one that brings the greatest joy, really cements your point. It mixes aspects that are essential to Class S with modern perception of homosexuality and the more straightforward approach of current yuri works.
It leads to the blurred lines at the end of Hiver where Rikka is so integrated into the relationship between Suoh and Mayuri that it made me question if the writer wanted to imply polyamory without saying it outright... Rikka is truly the most sturdy third wheel in history.

Also, a month ago I found this. I relate to it so much I could scream.

I see. So you relate to the Suoh x Erika shipper, color me surprised! :P

last edited at Jul 20, 2022 2:32PM

so much black in this thread recently

All in service of not spoiling anyone. Unfortunately Dynasty still does not provide the option to make collapsible spoilers, which would both save space and eye damage from all the black bars.

@icipher

1 and 2. I don't really understand how exactly she'd be able to do any of that in the first place. And you might be forgetting that Dalia explicitly told Suoh that Mayuri left the academy of her own free will, and when Suoh tried to inquire about her again, Dalia responded with "she had her own reasons". None of the staff she has talked to seemed to be suspecting anything weird about Mayuri suddenly leaving the academy, because it happens all the time. This is not an actual disappearance. Suoh begins to suspect something, to think that there might be an actor behind Mayuri's disappearance only in Automne.

This does not quite oppose the point, if Suoh wanted information on Mayuri (especially if she thought it was just a voluntary leave) it would have been obvious to contact her family first (hell, even Mayuri directly if she really went home). You are questioning how she could have done that? Really? I know the phone book is a bit outdated these days, even if the game makes you believe it would still be used, but getting the Kohsaka's contact info for any manner of excuse should have been quite easy, especially if the staff didn't suspect any undue circumstances.
The moment the parents are unaware of Mayuri leaving the academy, Suoh should have gone for child protection services, because a girl just functionally disappeared. If the parents were fed some lie about Mayuri's wherabouts Suoh would immediately have had a way stronger lead.

4. I've reread the scene of their second meeting and I don't agree. Suoh still can't control herself emotionally during their second meeting. And during the third one there's this line: "Emotion surges up in me and I shout through the wall. If we both want to see one another so desperately, then why are we still relegated to speaking through walls?". This is just one of many examples when she relays her mental and emotional state during her meetings with Mayuri in that manner. You might see this as a narrative contrivance, but I see it just as "this is how she is". She even says once she's afraid that she won't see Mayuri again if she will tell about her meetings to her friends. She can't really explain why she feels and does what she feels and does, why she is so deeply afraid of facing Mayuri directly during those meetings will result in her losing her forever. Again, before second meeting she even says "I don't even need to see her, just let me hear her voice once again".

Your explanation for that scene is valid. But also just excusing bad writing. Of course you can always boil it down to emotional issues, but really? By the third time Suoh already confessed everything to her friends. She had the confidence to tell Mayuri she would find her and solve the mystery no matter what. She has the strength to tell Mayuri "No" and prevent her from leaving in the true ending path. Suoh's emotional state is all over the place, but I find this an incredibly cheap reason to just dismiss the most obvious solution available. One you have to derive from inner monologue that I don't even consider that convincing for your case.
The line you quoted from the second meeting doesn't imply she doesnt want to see her or is afraid to face her, quite the opposite, she is clinging just to her voice because she will take anything she can to bloster her resolve.

5. To be honest, it's doesn't really matter. Why "she didn't notice because she simply didn't" isn't a plausible enough explanation to you? And I wouldn't call it Rikka's contribution, it was just a pure coincidence which results in the whole group reading those letters together.

...Suoh went to insane lengths to uncover information and the specimen room was her best lead. She should have torn open every single cupboard and read every piece of paper in the entire room to be honest. You understand that her suddenly acting this sloppy (the letters were literally in the open!) at a crucial moment feels contrived, yes? It only happened to prolong the mystery and to have Rikka come in with the "save". I am looking at this from a writing perspective obviously and "It happened because it happened" is the worst of all writing mistakes. Let's give it an irrational but plausible spin if you will... Suoh is afraid of butterflies. If the letters had been in the butterfly section, then this would explain why she specifically was not able to find it. There, bad writing solved. This can be applied to quite a few problems in Hiver. Internal consistency that works hand in hand with the plot is all I ask.

Oh and I don't actually think that was the only thing Rikka contributed, not at all. I also value her character development. My issue lies entirely with how Suoh's actions are portrayed.

6. This...sounds like something that would come completely out of left field in this story. It'd lead to such a wild tonal whiplash. And this leads me to my final point.

If I'm being fully honest, I don't really see much of a point in discussing these specific gripes on these specific plot points, because we'll go back and forth infinitely and indefinitely while talking about them, since one can easily drown in these "what if" scenarios and their myriad excessive details. I simply think that all of these criticisms stem from you reading and analyzing the story from a purely realistic, a logical perspective. (Please don't take it personally, but a few of these plot-related gripes resemble CinemaSins-level extreme nitpicking to me. A bike and a search on the Internet, really?

It is a bit hard to not take offense to you calling incredibly obvious solutions to a convoluted mystery "nitpicking" and comparing me to failed comedians.... A good writer needs to justify their mystery and character actions internally, regardless of what the drama begs of the piece. I was always highly opposed to the sentiment that we should ignore faults just because the story couldn't work without them. We are supposed to believe Suoh is desperately invested into this, yet she doesn't even come to the most basic form of information gathering in the modern age. This could have been alleviated with a little more transparency of what Suoh did or with changing the time period as mentioned before.

Let me put this into terms that may make more sense to you... I accept illogical and emotional actions as explanations, because humans arent perfect logic machines. Automne's entire core is simply the emotional state of Yuzuriha and Nerine fighting for balance. But if you pull the "emotion made me do it" card, by all means properly convey it, properly integrate it and don't ignore the obvious solutions completely. An action in affect is totally understandable, but 1 year's worth of slipping and sliding becomes harder to accept. When the story IS entirely centered around emotional stakes then that's also how you treat it. If the story is entirely revolving around a MYSTERY then this mystery MUST pay off in a way that makes sense. This is why I never expected to be satisfied with Hiver's plot even before I read it, as I could not conceive of a way to make the mystery pan out... and I was proven right. The writers put themselves into a corner, plain and simple.

And plot, the linear progression of events, in Flowers is nothing but one giant contrivance to me, always has been. I don't see any value in it, because I've always perceived it as nothing but a vehicle for transporting the story from point A to point B.

I think this line is what separates our worldviews and why we may not be able to agree on this no matter how far we take this. I value internal consistency, but you are projecting the meta of the setting and writing over that consistency, conflating the two. The story NEEDS to acknowledge these elements that it has chosen to be part of, regardless of whether it wants to act like it exists in two time periods. Playing with tropes and genre conventions is fine, it is one of the things I praised about the series, how it deconstructs Class S structures and breaks them as they should be destroyed.
But you are asking me to ignore blatantly bad writing just... because. These inconsistencies and dropped plot points hurt the internal logic of the piece that you are praising here.

Furthermore, a lot of the characters' actions can be attributed to one thing. I see that many people do seem to forget that the cast consists of quite literally 14-15 years old teenagers

Very well, I do acknowledge this part, in fact it is one of the biggest dissonances of this series to me. 14 year old girls who have watched M-rated movies and know every classic or super specific Western filmographies... I can suspend my disbelief for, somehow. Acting emotionally, failing to act mature? Completely granted. Melodrama? This is the most common thing possible in romance stories, I am here for it.
But once again... it is not properly conveyed . The story 9/10 times does act like they are acting logically or that they are figuring things out in a, well, detective style of way. Every protagonist has a nearly unnatural insight on inter-personal relationships of others when the plot demands it and then they don't see the obvious at other times, but it is never justified in any way. Printemps was the worst offender for putting melodrama before good character writing, but I always saw this as a necessary evil to establish the cast properly. And I accepted it or I wouldn't be here discussing the 4th game. I also accept Hiver's shortcomings, but I do not turn a blind eye to them with superficial deflections like "They are 14, therefore everything is excusable". After all most of the situation was build by adults who act just as irrationally. Age is not a shield or spear, just a circumstance.

I will once again bring up Automne as the shining example of how much better the writing can be. Yuzuriha makes mistakes or mulls in her long lasting depression, but she internally justifies herself a lot . You have a complete understanding of her emotional state and internal world, you see her interactions, no matter how flawed and can say "Yes, this makes sense". Because it is an internal conflict. Hiver's conflict is in large part external and that is where things get complicated.

It's very obvious that she cannot control her train of thought when she is overwhelmed by emotions, especially in Hiver, in which her POV is of an unreliable narrator variety. I'd say that her mind had begun to cloud in Automne's extra already, and in Hiver she is very deeply obsessed with Mayuri to the point that she believes that she really needs to be saved from danger, some kind of force that supposedly keeps them apart. And when her fears, doubts and anxieties manifest through the spectre of her stepmother, she antagonizes with this dark side of hers and immediately shuts it down every single time, because of course she doesn't want to think about a possibility that what she is doing is...not exactly wrong, but kind of erroneous. Her perception of reality is skewed because this whole thing is so incredibly personal to her; in Erika's own words, she is incapable of thinking straight when it comes to Mayuri, and that's why she starts to progress only when she finally opens up to her friends in Chapter 5, because she desperately needs some fresh perspectives, even if it's something as simple as "the key is actually just a regular key" (which is another example of her mental myopia, she really does see everything as some kind of a mystery puzzle).

This is a brilliant analyzes of Suoh in Hiver and I don't disagree with it at all. It both examplifies what is great about the writing and what is superbly lacking. I love it.

If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her?

First of all, I want to outline this specific part, because I do not believe that the "Mayuri asked Suoh to forget her" thing ever happened before Hiver. She really left without a word, she didn't even ask Dalia to relay anything to Suoh.

Mayuri wanting Suoh to forget about her was addressed several times, with Printemps in mind. Her final message carved into the pavillion in Printemps was not that direct obviously, but Suoh's wish to forget her was supposed to be mirrored by Mayuri wanting to be forgotten. Even the need to be "saved" that Suoh interpreted into Mayuri's paintings never existed. Mayuri was willing to cut all ties and had hoped Suoh would move on (while also hoping she wouldnt, because emotions, you know it).

...Okay, I don't quite get it. Do you truly believe that Mayuri would've cut ties with Suoh and the rest if the Basquiats, Dalia specifically, would've allowed her not to? It's very obvious that the Basquiats have been trying to keep this whole thing hidden under the rug for 20 years. How would you explain the mysteries of the Tulpa of Agape and the Goddess of Truth being so persistent for two decades then? Why would Dalia be so adamant in her attempts of shutting down Suoh's investigations? No, there is only one plausibility in my opinion: the students that take the role aren't given a choice, they accept it fully on the Basquiats' terms. I would even assume that they didn't allow these girls to return to the academy, because it would immediately raise eyebrows and questions

I am sorry, but this entire segment is speculation at best. I think you went too far in your quest to justify things with no evidence to actually back it up. In fact that alternate endings contradict this line of thinking, as Mayuri re-enrolled in the academy in the ending where Suoh wakes up from her coma and even in the semi-bad end Mayuri tells Suoh that they will meet again, proving that cutting all ties is not even necessary. Eventually, maybe after graduation, they were able to meet again. If this possibility always existed then at some point you have to wonder what else is possible.
Not that there is any reason to even think the limitations were that extreme. Letters and an excuse for her disappearance would have been far more potent in keeping a secret than literally just disappearing and making a fuss. Perhaps people wouldn't go as far as Suoh, but things have a way of getting away with people, right Seven Mysteries?

and also why else would these girls need preferential treatment for college and universities of their choice if they were allowed to resume their study as normal anyway.

Why would they need preferential treatment for university and better connections? Uhm... that is the entire point of the deal. They don't need it, but they get something out of it. it's not to reduce the damage, it's the explicit goal for most of the girls taken by the Goddess of Truth. Mayuri was the only exception, because her abondment issues were her true reason to want to do it. She never cared about getting ahead in the social ladder.

Her abandonment trauma is not really about her using Mother Elder as a patchwork for her wounded heart, but about the fact that she was afraid that Suoh would've abandoned her just as her mother did if she had told her the truth — or, as she said, maybe this is just an excuse to hide behind.
By the way, recall the Return of the Veil scene in Printemps; this is when Mayuri gives her definitive answer to Dalia when she whispers to her something that Suoh can't hear. She had made her choice when she accepted Dalia's proposal, and by making this choice she betrayed Suoh's trust because she herself was afraid of being abandoned again. It's as simple as that. What that fear unfounded and irrational? Yes, it was, but it doesn't matter in retrospect. Is it an understandable fear, even if irrational and unfounded? I'd say that it is.

Explain to me this truth. What truth is Mayuri actually hiding? What was she afraid Suoh would have abandoned her over? Because no matter how much you elaborate on the consequences, you never address the cause.

You might be wondering "but if she had resolved to stay by Allium's side, then why did she begin to change her mind in Hiver at the end?".

I never wondered about this. It's one of the only parts of Mayuri's choices and mental state that is crystal clear. Her change is one of the things that is expected in the narrative and makes sense to me.

as an example of this, she agrees to switch with Chidori during the stage play to give Suoh a fleeting moment of happiness, but then she flees, which changes only in the "retelling", i.e. in the second reading/playthrough.

Isn't it the same thing as in the previous games? The true ending (or Grand Finale in this case) is only unlocked if you saw all other endings. Calling it a retelling is perhaps pushing it too deeply into a meta. Just like in Ete or Automne, it very much feels like the writer wants you to fully comprehend the extent of all possibilities before you can reach the intended conclusion.

Honesty, this whole case reminds me of a criticism some people throw at Automne ==when they say that Nerine's motivation for choosing Yuzuriha in the True End is never explained and that her character is "underutilized". I disagree with all of these assessments as I think that the amount of information provided in both cases is sufficient for effective portrayal.

Well well, you will not see me criticizing Automne on such a superficial level and I resent the idea that these are comparable in your mind. Nerine's character motivation was very well established and she was always only so far away from making that choice. Her guilt and faith held her back, but Yuzuriha always had the key to her heart.
My issue with Mayuri's motivations is far deeper and comes about due to her actions before Hiver, which have, unlike Nerine's, not been properly addressed.
Mayuri changing her mind, I understand and wholeheartedly embrace. Just like I did with Nerine.

The only danger was the actual truth behind Mayuri's disappearance, which is why Mayuri initially also tried to ward her off.

The truth being that she chose to leave Suoh behind? I find it hard to accept that this constant mention of danger and dark secrets and a "perpetrator" was aimed to spare Suoh's feelings. To a degree, yes, but if you really want to act like this story did not portray the overarching mystery as dangerous and sinister you would be lying. Even Kifune's mystery was more horrible, as it was basically a bread trail towards her corpse... why exactly did Dhalia have the key to that place and yet nobody ever looked in there? This is not even explained once. I mean, all the hints to the mystery led to that room. What was the point of hiding it? It held some old information about the history of the academy. Clearly nobody knew Kifune committed suicide in there (even though there is a WINDOW in the roof of that room! Glad none of the maintenance crew ever looked down I guess! And the library must have really good ventilation to hide the corpse smell.).
I would understand if they were trying to hide secret accounts, but... a fire that burned down the chapel and killed a student and a teacher/priest is not something that could actually be hidden. I refer you to my internet research point from the list of how Suoh could have figured this mystery out in an instant. This 100% was in the news.

But the Basquiats were also at fault here, they are the enablers. Even their treatment of Mother Elder is highly morally questionable in my opinion. Allium was something of a coping mechanism for them and they were willing to do to lie and cover things up in order to keep it that way for...20 years. Which is, like, a very long time and a big stack of lies if you ask me.

Oh I fully agree. The Basquiats are the problem here and I don't actually dislike this angle one bit. It's just not actually sinister or dangerous. Just very foolish.
And yes, I also thought that keeping Allium in delusions was not a good way of helping her. Which is why breaking the illusion instantly helped her move on.

Are you referring to Mother Elder dying in the Good End, but living a few more years in non-canon endings? I had a very firm impression that the way she passed in the Good End was induced by something like an emotional shock after she finally awakened from her "dream" (the text explicitly tells, for example, that her eyes fix on Suoh for a moment and there's a sudden flash of recognition, which implies that she saw Sayuri in her, a girl who in her mind should've been dead for many years).

I find it fascinating that Suoh's mere existence is basically what killed both Allium's delusion and... well, her. It also implies that deep down she knew Kifune was gone, which makes me wonder just how close they actually were. Obviously I got that point, but Allium was still unbelievably old. She really shouldn't have that much left in her, especially with her mental state. 3 years is a stretch. Whatever the hell kind of time it takes in the Rikka ending, I will not accept. Suoh and Rikka becoming sisters at the school and being working adults...

This story would have been better if Mayuri had just stuck around and the final game was about discovering Sion Basquiat's secret for different reasons.

It would've been a very different story revolving around an almost different set of themes, not "same story but better"; you'd have to completely rewrite a large portion of the plot and a large portion of character development progression to accommodate this "Mayuri sticking around" idea into narrative.

Certainly. I am not acting like this would have stayed the same story (well Ete and Automne would have only needed slight tweaks honestly). But the best parts of Hiver can live separately from Mayuri's disappearance, which I find fascinating. Of course I will acknowledge that my favorite part, the parallel between Mayuri/Suoh & Sion/Kifune is actually dependent on it transpiring in some way. But I also see a universe where Mayuri sticking around would highly improve Pirintemps and Hiver so much that I actually dare say it would have been worth rewriting everything. Mind you, even just changing Hiver so that Suoh would find and get back Mayuri much earlier would be an improvement. Hiver has too much filler in the wrong places. By the time the story actually ramps up and gets somewhere it is already over.

I want to reiterate once more that this was not a "deal". "Deal" implies mutual partnership, but Dalia had manipulated them into doing all these things.

Forgive my doubts, but Dhalia is anything but a mastermind. It requires quite a bit of suspension of disbelief to make it feasible for her to think this far ahead. It honestly reads more like she asked them for help because she was at her wit's end. If anything Yuzuriha must have made these choices on her own, as her "duty". She was always the overachiever.
But while I can sort of see the method Yuzuriha went for (Nerine really just tagged along... what a waste of her character), it doesn't actually convey motivation.

Speaking of "the worst act in history": are you sure this was just an act?

Why yes, I believe wholeheartedly that every antagonistic notion of these two was an act and the narrative itself acknowledges that. Their elopment is completely disconnected from that. The only connection would be Dhalia giving them something in return, which you say Coloeurs acknowledges... but Hiver doesn't. If you want to push Yuzuriha into a role where she chooses between Neri and the cast... actually justify this turn. Hiver doesn't bother to.

Overall, I argue that them being in Hiver is integral to Yuzuriha's growth. I did say that the third confrontation is when she gets her final portion of character development in the series. If you think about it, what she does in this scene is a bit similar to what she already did for Suoh in Automne, but on a much bigger scale.
But after actually experiencing the full extent of what Suoh is willing to go through for Mayuri, after realizing that she truly will stop at nothing, Yuzuriha finally recognizes that what she does is, ultimately, selfish. Of course, what Suoh does is also selfish, she even says it out loud, which absolutely doesn't mean that it's something bad on its own. It just means that Suoh is the same as her, that she also has the right for happiness. Yuzuriha accepts that she isn't the only one who is struggling and fighting for happiness, that she has no right to deny it for Suoh. And then she yields again and sheds her evergreen foliage once more. She is finally able to put aside her deeply held wants for someone's else benefit.

While I see the point of Yuzuriha comitting a selfless act to a degree I also still think that to get to that conclusion she should have had a valid reason to BE THERE. Not to mention that her selflessly killing her own persona and always playing the role others expected of her is what she was supposed to shed in the true ending of Automne.... she finally was allowed to act selfish. She was allowed to want something and finally be herself - one way or another (even if it was with Ringo at her side, instead of Nerine). The theme of selfless seflishness is strong and one of the best things of Automne, but Hiver did not devote any time to actually giving this the gravitas it needed.

So why would she do these things in this situation? Just out of respect? This is how she simply is, and I accept her how she is. This kind of intimate closure is what I appreciate more, because it gives a very bittersweet feeling to their final departure. Actually, it is very similar to Mayuri End, but while Mayuri End gets overwritten, redacted and painted over, theirs doesn't.

You see, the problem is that the true end of Automne is them breaking away and leaving everything behind. The moment the decision was made there was no past for them left. They decided to move on and saying goodbye would not have made sense anymore.
But Hiver drew them back in, to the detriment of their perfect conclusion. If you go this far to make them integrate back into the cast, then there is no reason to just keep them at the status quo. It is dull, it is amateurish writing. What was the point? You see what I am getting at.

This one time I will agree that internal consistency is not the issue, this is indeed how Yuzu and Neri chose to go about it and I understand that. But from a writing perspective... Pointless. I don't think you can 100% disagree that the only reason they are in this story is so they can be in this story. It doesn't actually benefit them as characters at all, least of all Nerine. The only way their return would have some value would have been if they did find closure with everyone, not just Suoh.
And yes, this is a thing that we can agree to disagree on. It's my personal issue as a writer who puts character development to a high standard. Pieces should be there for a reason to improve and change, not just because they are convenient and are lying in your drawer for usage.

I understand that it may be frustrating for you, but there exists no rule in writing which says that every loose end should have a perfectly clear resolution or defines how exactly clear and well-explained it should be. It has a resolution: Yuzuriha just tells Suoh the info in her typical clandestine manner. This is how she's always been, it's in character.

This is not a rule, it is the blunder of a beginner. What was the point of the entire arc in Printemps? To frame Mayuri I guess. But why go about it this way if there is no actual reason given? I will tell you right now: My hottest of hot takes, the absolute state of someone who wrote 20 paragraphs of character analyzes by now...
The. Writer. Did. Not. Know. The. Answer.
Yes, I am saying it. Printemps was not written with all conclusions in mind. A lot of things in Printemps get completely abandoned or sweeped under the rug. Hiver made clear as day what I suspected all along. And Yuzuriha's flippant line that swipes aside a major mystery is the kind of writing crutch authors use all the time.

And, as I said, none of this information is essential, in no way this is an actual cliffhanger. I'm pretty sure that Innocent Grey didn't expect that everyone and their mother would be able buy a very expensive limited artbook anyway. I didn't even know that any of these bonus details existed outside of the game until I read about them three weeks later after finishing Hiver.

Yes, you acknowledge that this information is not readily available, but you are - and I am super anxious about saying something like it is objective, believe me - wrong about it being non-essential. It would have been non-essential after Automne... it became essential when Hiver happened. It is beyond erronious to claim that vital characer motivations are "non-essential" just because you can make up a reason to yourself. There are plot points that can be kept vague and then there are matters that will completely change everything about a character's presence in a tale. This is the latter.

There are only two members of the Basquiat remaining in Saint Angraecum. The first one is Dalia herself and she is a non-candidate, because Yuzuriha wouldn't be able to interact with her normally in Automne if it was her doing. This leaves you with only a single option: Iberis, that mysterious woman whose voice you can hear twice during Mayuri/Sion opening sequences. I don't think that it's that hard of a puzzle or even a puzzle at all.

Except Iberis has family aside from the deceased Sion. Yes, the story points towards her, but it doesn't explain anything at all of her motivations or involvement. Just because you can make assumptions about the whom (only because that is the only Basquiat you know about), it doesn't somehow justify the action itself.

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To gather my thoughts once more, this seems mostly a different approach to story-telling that guides us and that is fine. I think your insight on how the story "should" be perceived is great and the author would be most grateful for your perspective, as it focuses on the intention instead of the result . These kinds of readers are the most convenient for writers, although I do not want to belittle you at all for it! This is after all a work of fiction, for enjoyment. And enjoyed it we both have. Only to different degrees and for perhaps different reasons. This is as far as I will go with my critcism of Hiver, lest I actually start nitpicking instead of pointing out the most glaring flaws only. And believe me, there are some minor inconsistencies that made my neck itch throughout.

I'm not opposed to discussing it more of course (I asked you questions after all and it would be rude to cut it off before hearing your answers). I value this different perspective. But outside of the things we discussed I will try not to focus on any other issues with Hiver and instead count my blessings in what I got.

last edited at Jul 18, 2022 5:18AM

My thoughts on Hiver can basically be compared to my thoughts on Printemps. Messy. It lacks the polish and sharp wit of Automne in almost every regard. It was to be expected as it carried over the weakest part of Flowers, the big mystery around the Godess of Truth and Mayuri's disappearance, and drags it out till the stone is squeezed of every drop of water it ever held. It loses itself in filler chapters and side-quests that, while having served a character building purpose in Ete or Automne (and even to a lesser degree in Printemps), really are just pointless now that the story is so fixated on "solving" the mystery.

Suoh's obssession with following the detective plotline laid out before her instead of doing even a single logical thing to actually find and bring back Mayuri is pushed to its absurd extreme here. Frankly my most disliked parts of the Summer and Autumn chapters were those revolving around Suoh, which is sad, because I love her character so much. But she wastes infinite time being benched in those stories for minimal progress and then in the big finale she doesn't truly seem to be in much of a hurry either, despite physically talking to Mayuri several times.

To elaborate on why I think this is bad writing, here are some suggestions of what Suoh could have at least tried instead in all games combined. That's just a couple of things at the top of my head, but I remember having way more ideas when I read the other volumes.
1. Contact Mayuri's family. She never even tried.
2. Bring up her disappearance to child protection services (in case her family did not know her location)
3. Actually properly search the premises of the Basquiat's land. That mansion was 2 hours away by foot, but with a bike this would have been trivial.
4. The moment Mayuri physically appeared in a room over she only had to go to her room and cut off her escape. While during their first meeting I may have been able to forgive her inaction due to shock, the second and third time do not have that luxury. If the issue is that Suoh alone is not capable of it, she could have asked her crew of friends to block off all exits. Yes, Mayuri would not have been happy, but by forcing her into a proper conversation this would have been resolved in a day.
5. This one is less of an instant solution and more of a question how blind Suoh is, but she did investigate the specimen room thoroughly for a while (the game went out of its way to repeatedly point that out), yet she didn't find the letters by Sion and Kifune? The ones that literally have the name "Sion Basquiat" on them? Why did it take Rikka finding them to get this clue? This is just a poor excuse to have Rikka contribute.
6. Most of Angraecum's history sounds like it can be found on a Wikipedia page. Suoh could have used her 3 different breaks to leave the academy and connect to the internet for research. This story often feels like it wants to take place in the 1960s and the only reason it doesn't is that the writer can't make movie and book references of more recent stuff then.

Of course all of this can be chalked up to dramatization and a desire to keep the reader in suspense, but Hiver in particular does an incredibly poor job of conveying or justifying character motivations. It all culminates in the fact that Mayuri's actions do not make sense. On any level.
She wishes to give that old lady a bit of happiness before she passes away. She has abondenment issues with her mother and used her as a replacement for that motherly figure in her life. So far it is all very understandable. But why did she have to lie or hide it? Why could she not be with Granny Elder for a period of time after attending school like normal? The woman quite directly believes Mayuri is Sion and still attending the school so there aren't even any incongruences in that set-up. Even if she had to give her intensive care for most of the day for some reason, Mayuri had NO reason to cut all ties with Suoh and her friends at all. Even if they met more rarely, it would have been fine. Even if they just sent each other letters it would have been fine!
This contrivance becomes more inexcusable when we take to mind that Mayuri was told that Granny Elder would only be under those delusions for around 3 months. If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her? Yes, eventually it turned out that the delusion did not end, because Mayuri was too similar to Sion, but that was not originally intended to happen. At worst Mayuri could have lied that she was going to some kind of extra-curricular art course far away for a few months.
This all boils down to the conclusion that Mayuri had no reason to act the way she did. There was also no reason for the entire cast and narrative to portray Elder as some kind of villain and snake. There was never a real antagonist. There wasn't even any danger. Why did everyone act like Suoh was playing with fire, when at most she would have uncovered a sad truth about the headmaster of the academy? What could they possibly have done, expel her? Not to mention that this entire deal was treated like it was one of the oldest and most deep of the Seven Mysteries, but it couldn't have been around for more than 20 years max, as Dhalia was a child when it happened. Do not even get me started on the alternate endings, which somehow portray it like Granny Elder would have lived for years on end and Mayuri would have been stuck with her way past Suoh's graduation. Everything falls apart.
This story would have been better if Mayuri had just stuck around and the final game was about discovering Sion Basquiat's secret for different reasons.

Continuing with badly conveyed information and motivations, I'm surprised that someone would so avidly defend how Yuzuriha and Nerine were treated in Hiver. I completely agree with Lilification that they were handled quite poorly. Yes, you can somehow piece together that Dhalia offered them a deal, but this is a joke. What did Dhalia actually call them out of elopment for? To send a letter she could have written herself and play guard dog in front of Dhalia's room? On the off chance that Suoh and all her friends are too dumb to tell that this is the worst act in history? You are seriously telling me that the two girls who are wanted for running away from home are willing to publically appear at the academy (with uniforms to boot) and that Dhalia was okay with putting them at risk? And for what? As we established, Suoh discovering the secret barely amounts to anything and Yuzuriha was the one who gave Suoh basically all of her hints anyway.
If you wish to argue that they had to be in Hiver to resolve their plotline, then maybe it should have been actually resolved? Because it really wasn't at all. You get a single hint that they had a deal with the Basquiats, but they have no proper send-off with anyone but Suoh and they just return to the same status quo we saw them at in Automne. Character writing wise this was a bad integration and a missed opportunity. The part about Yuzuriha getting attacked gets absolutely no resolution at all beyond implying the Basquiats were involved, but not for what reason or whom exactly. This is the final chapter, don't cliffhanger bait people with something that should have been resolved within the confines of its own plot. I do not care if there are audio dramas or additional materials that do explain it, this is bad form.
I am not exaggerating when I say that I feel Yuzuriha and Nerine's story had a better conclusion if it had stayed at Automne and the drama CDs of their eloped life in another city.

This all may sound exceptionally bitter and negative, but I want to clarify that I can only get so passionate about the shortcomings of Hiver, because I love the series and find that the really good parts of this final chapter are actually sensational. I find it simply a bit disappointing that the final chapter had to be carried mostly on character investment and emotion to make up for its manifold issues.
This post is already too long, but I will put together my thoughts on the best part of Hiver soon: The parallel story-telling and twist of Sion and Kifune's relationship with Suoh and Mayuri's.

last edited at Jul 17, 2022 6:49AM

It has been a while, so I think it's time for another spin at the recommended section. The theme this time will be FREE VNs. No matter whether you are a loyal tax payer or a free spirited privateer, these games are not going to cost you a single doubloon either way! These ones may all vary in quality, but never dismiss something just because it is free of charge. And to make it more palatable I will do 4 instead of the usual 3 this time. Because I like ya.

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First Snow

Synopsis: Having moved away from her friends and family to attend community college, Allison Merlo is a fresh student struggling with the day to day challenges of life.

Faced not only with living independently for the first time, but also having to get past her nerves to find new friends in an unfamiliar environment, she finds herself falling in with a group of eccentric writers and artists.

As she pushes through this new stage in her life, the art of the cold and enigmatic Eileen Turner takes her attention, setting her on a course she never expected.

Duration? Short (ca. 5-7 hours)

Gameplay? Kinetic. First Snow has no choices or gameplay elements, it simply tells its story. When I first played it there was no voice acting included yet, but there has been a partial voice patch since then, so I went back to check it out and the voice acting does not disappoint, albeit relegated to the more important scenes only. I found it a good incentive to replay the game once more. Of course you can always turn it off should you find it disturbing to your experience.
The game has a very sweet arts&crafts aesthetic (as expected of a story revolving around artsy students) and while the CGs may only be servicable, the animated way the paper like sprites move and the polish of the menus is commendable.

Yuri? Of course the main pairing delivers on that front and there is an implication towards a certain trio being involved with each other as well, though that is relegated to the eventual sequel. The romance in this story is very gradual and dare I say it - a rainbow in a dreary and grey season. The game's tempered color pallette and tightly knit writing makes the troubled journey of Allison and Eileen into a relationship feel like a warming fire during a snowy afternoon.
Allison starts out rather conflicted about not just her future as a student, but also her sexuality. Yet the drama (and there is plenty of that) is not much based around it at all. In fact the cast is rather open-minded and supportive, most of all Rose, Allison's adult roommate and resident biker chick who had her own troubled life story and understands the need for freedom and self-expression.

Version? The latest update is available wherever you may download the game and the voice acting patch is included. For Steam there is the option for the free 18+ Adult patch as well.

Sexual Content? Surprisingly yes. And not just mere nudity (the expected nude painting does appear however), but full blown sex scenes. They are done tastefully and fit the flow of the story well. I would recommend getting the adult patch if necessary.

Recommended? I rather enjoyed this short, but warm experience. The story went places I did not initially expect and is far from shallow. A coming of age story that uses its short duration wisely and represents homosexuaity in a grounded way. What more do you need? It is worth spending a cozy afternoon on for sure! It is available on Steam, Itch.io and salty-salty-studio's website.

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Without A Voice

Synopsis: In the depths of a dark and unforgiving forest, an exiled princess whiles her time in solitude. For a girl raised in the lap of comfort, the woods are impossibly harsh, and day-to-day survival is the most she can manage. One day, however, a mysterious, beautiful maiden appears, throwing her world out of its already delicate alignment. The princess is instantly captivated by this stranger, and begins to fancy herself the heroine of a fairytale, even as the maiden proves herself to be less and less of a fantasy.

Foolish princess. She should know by now that her life is no fairytale.

In seven days, the wheel of fate will splinter. Seven days, for better or worse…

Duration? Short (ca. 3 hours)

Gameplay? Without A Voice is a choice based Visual Novel and has a variety of endings, some harder to obtain than others, none explicitely the best or true ending as far as I believe. It is a game that is steeped in heavy themes and it is very likely that you will experience many dark turns and bad endings before you can carve out what little happiness that you will. The choice trees can seem fickle at times and I found myself stuck trying to get all the endings once or twice, but overall the experience is short and digestable.
The art varies in quality a lot I find, but the writing is outstanding for what it tries to accomplish.and always a pleasant read. I want to give a special mention to the music that is actually very enthralling.

Warning! The game contains some mild gore and deeply uncomfortable implications.

Yuri? Hard fought and the goal overall. The exiled princess and her strange visitor are all but tied to each other by fate, only which fate that will be is up to you. The game is very heavily centered around homophobia and the many layers it can manifest, but there is also a nearly ethereal note to everything. It is a fantasy world that seems almost too real and grim, but the true heavyniess comes from the lengths someone would go to for love.

Version? There is only one version, so no need to compare. The game got a new patch in 2024 that added voice acting to the game.
Sexual Content? None.

Recommended? An easy recommend from me. For such a short experience I found myself thinking of this one a lot. There is not much quite like it out there. The execution can be simplistic, but the story takes itself seriously and is ready to surprise you even several endings in. It is available on Steam, Itch.io and Studio Elan's website.

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FInd Love or Die Trying

Synopsis: "I'm your host Kat, and this is Find Love or Die Trying!

It's the premiere of our new dating show, where ending up single... means ending up dead! Not sure why you'd sign up for this, but now that you're here, you've got 7 days to get one of the lovely ladies on your tropical island getaway to fall in love in with you. If she's willing to put a ring on it, you're both free to leave. If not... well, it's in the name of the show!

You'll get the chance to meet:
Allie, the daredevil athlete with a rebellious streak
Scarlett, the charming scientist with a penchant for destruction
Violet, the cold-as-ice scion of a mysterious MegaCorp
Terra, the eccentric gamer who marches to her own drum
Yui, the childhood sweetheart with a smile that could melt ice
...And last, but definitely not least, me! Kat! The impossibly perfect and painfully gorgeous host and producer. Did I forget to mention generous? I'll be helping you get those romantic connections going, so you better be grateful!

Then again, my bonus is tied to the ratings, and not you surviving the show, so... Hm.

Anyway.... I can't wait to start filming our first episode together!"

Duration? Short (5-10 hours). Depending on whether you really want to get all the endings or see all the possible divergent outcomes of events.

Gameplay? Find Love Or Die Trying is a choice based story in which your input will lead you to different events in the titular reality show. Of course the wacky premise is not at all what it seems and down the line your choices will affect much more than just the ratings. Saying any more would spoil the twists I fear, so I will be brief.
This may well be the VN with the highest production quality of this FREE theme, which reflects in its very nice artworks and UI polish. Regardless, the sprites are static and the choice trees are not as complex as they first may appear. The writing is the highlight without a doubt and it balances wacky fun with shockingly depressing and somber wordbuilding.

Warning: With the premise stated there may be certain comedic expectations, but be assured that the story can get very messed up at times, so readers with a queasy stomach may wish to consider this game carefully.

Yuri? Here is the thing with this game's yuri content. You are essentially portrayed as a self-insert character and can choose between He/She/They at the beginning. This means technically you can choose to be a woman and date all the other women. Yet I have to point out that during the entire game and all its events I have been addressed as "She" exactly once. And it was by some random side-character that didn't matter. The majority of the game the writing is doing it's best to not acknowledge the player's gender and sticks to using "they" anyway. Of course this also means the game never contradicts your choice either.
So how much Yuri you actually get out of the game depends on how well you are able to project a female persona on the main character. There is no visual representation and no particular hint towards their gender in any interaction, so it's really up to the reader.

That being said, should you be able to accept that the main character is in fact a woman, then the yuri is more or less the focus of the story. It's what the game show is all about, right? There are 6 heroines and 6 endings. It is up to you to choose which girl seems to be your best fit, but even outside your own choices there is a lot of baggage involved.

Version? There is only one version, so no need to compare.

Sexual Content? None. Although sexual moments are implied aplenty, they are never depicted nor described.

Recommended? The hang-up about the main character's gender takes a lot of attention, but I need to point out that the narrative really goes places, absurd as they may be. I think that the game is intentionally deceptive about many things and that in itself makes it so much more intriguing. Even if there were no yuri at all I would suggest trying it out, but as it stands there is some viable romantic content here that should not be dismissed. One heroine/ending in particular really got to me. I hope you will embrace her at the end of this hellish show as well. The game is available on Steam and Itch.io.

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Dorakone

Synopsis: Something new is hitting the mobile markets and taking the world by storm! An augmented reality game called Dragon Connection (DraCo) allows players to become trainers, collecting and battling with hundreds of dragons!

Dulce, after spending a few weeks saving up for a new phone, can finally participate in the craze! Though she's a little behind the curve, she’s soon immersed in the world of the game and its community. As she builds her collection of virtual dragons, and a circle of new friends grows with it, how will her summer vacation unfold?

Duration? Short (ca. 2-5 hours)

Gameplay? Dorakone is a choice based Visual Novel. There are three routes with 2 endings each (+ 2 solo endings, if you lone wolf it). It is really not complex at all. If it wasn't obvious after the synopsis, this game is heavily leaning on parodying trends like Pokemon Go and other AR games, but with dragons this time. That being said it also makes commentary on mobile gaming in general and each heroine represents a different type of player. They also all happen to be pretty gay.
The art is nothing to write home about, but it has charme. Dulce needs her own card game style anime.

Yuri? It's a game where you partner up with girls to summon dragons in virtual combat and win a tournament together. Romance at its finest.
Joking aside, every girl is not just a different type of mobile gaymer, they are also very different types of gay. Honoree in particular would seem very in line with Dynasty's crowd I feel.

Version? There is only one version, so no need to compare.

Sexual Content? Not in front of the kids!

Recommended? I will be honest, this one is just passable in my opinion, but it is entirely competent. I really enjoyed Honoree's route in particular and some of the game commentary is actually relatable. I think Dorakone is really most suited for a very specific type of reader and if you feel anything at all when you see gay girls play AR games then Dorakonnect to the web and download it! ...it is available on Steam and Itch.io.

last edited at Apr 13, 2024 4:27PM

The final FLOWERS game is now translated and available in the store. Le volume sur Hiver finally finishes the series.

It's bittersweet to see one of my favorite yuri series end, but I am so very glad that I got to experience it. I may have my issues with the plot of this game in particular (it is a major step down from the brilliant Autumn chapter), but there is not much in the way of such polished and beautiful works of art out there that I can wholeheartedly recommend, so do not take that criticism as a knock against the series.

I am still not ready to write my full recommendation for the entire series, but I urge anyone who loves in-depth character driven writing or a slightly Class-S setting with mystery aspects to it... read it. Read it all and be assured that it will be worth it in the end.

I still need to digest what I just finished, but discussing Hiver would also be appreciated as I wonder if my impressions are congruent with fellow readers.

I have added it to the list (alongside a lot of other VNs). Sorry for my absence and lack of updates. Life is always a whimsical thing.

I've "finished" Hiver.
Or, to be precise, I was finished by Hiver.

I've no idea how to properly, adequately and fully describe what I've seen, heard and felt for the last two days and 25 hours without resorting to baby talk and onomatopoeia. This is no mere mortal, secular masterpiece — this a full-on cathartic religious experience. I've shed more tears of joy and sorrow during it than during any other entry.

Currently I'm just marinating in emotions, feelings and thoughts, so I'm not planning on writing an actual review on the series yet. But I'll mention one thing: Hiver cements "love" as the core theme of the series, and not just in a trite romantic sense. Over the year, these girls have become each other's sisterly and motherly figures, friends, fans, admirers and lovers. They will do anything for each other, anything to lift and to support each other, anything to protect each other, and that is the most blindingly beautiful part of an otherwise incredibly dark, compared to other entries, narrative of Hiver. Forget Automne's brooding and soul-crushing tonality, because this right here is the most oppressive, harrowing, freezing-cold and sometimes straight up terrifying tone and atmosphere in all of the series.

Yet in darkness search for light and hope.

I am glad you enjoyed it this much. I agree on your assessment of what the overall theme of the series may actually be too. Love is central in every aspect and everything that denies love is portrayed as something foreign and bad (for example Suoh's spectre of her Stepmother). The final theme before the true credits was also quite distinctly about same-sex love. Love between two girls can't be wrong, the heart wants what it does and there is no need to deny it.

The oppressive feeling of Hiver is one of its strengths. Indeed, atmosphere, tone and emotions are what holds it higher and makes up for its more lacking aspects, like the plot.

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No Akai ito, Amaranto, Expression Amrilato, Distant Memorajo, Letters From A Rainy Day, Nurse Love Addiction, Nurse Love Syndrome, Yumeutsutsu Re After, Yumeutsutsu Re Master, and Yuuki Yuuna VN series? Blasphemy!

Pardon me, but Letters from a Rainy Day and both Yumeutsu titles have been on the list since I created this thread.
As for the others, I am aware of the Nurse Love games and the Yuuki Yuuna anime, but I cannot claim to be aware of the others. If you can recommend them I will add them to the list.

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I'll try my hand at a sort of description akin to the OP

Seabed: https://vndb.org/v19273

Ah yes, Seabed. I feel ashamed for not putting it on my initial list. I have read it, lived it and breathed it for that one memorable week in summer years ago... and then I sealed it away for some reason.

Famously this was the VN that got now beloved Adachi & Shimamura writer, Hitoma Iruma, into yuri. This may well be its greatest legacy haha

last edited at Jul 15, 2022 12:34AM