Haruka qnd Yuu canonically had sex before Yuzu and Mei.

ST takes line honours but, since Citrus started serialisation around 18 months later even that could be up for grabs in terms of series run time (maybe Citrus just makes it feel longer, lol). It's even more different in-universe: the series started at the start of high school, and at this point Haruka and Yuu have graduated high school (and didn't even actually date, let alone have sex, before graduating) while Yuzu and Mei are still in HS, so in-universe Citrus can (and probably will) beat ST to sex. Haruka & Yuu danced around romance for all three years of HS, and were BFFs in middle school. Yuzu & Mei have only known each other for just over a year.

ST is an interesting case, for most of the series the main pair mechanics are basically S-Class/bait, but the romantic framing (direction, character reactions, etc clearly frame H&Y as a couple) along with Kotone and Shizuku's definitely romantic relationship, allowed it to avoid denial and acknowledge homosexuality without actually doing it. It is also nice that it commented on the uncertainty and resolved it at the end of the main series.

It's one of my feel-good favs, although I wish the anime had been a bit less fanservicey, the excessive focus on bouncing boobs and bare thighs always makes me think twice about recommending what is otherwise a cute, fun show.

incest is the very least of my favourite, but hell this manga excites me so damn much

I've seen more than one person say something to this effect, and I think it illustrates how good a manga it is, subject matter aside. It's just really well done all around, in art and storytelling and everything else. If it keeps up the same level of quality to the end, I really think it'll go down as one of the all-time classics of yuri manga.

I have nothing against incest in stories, but I'm only interested if it goes beyond shock/titillation value. As you say this is a fairly serious and very well written story, and that makes it really stand out because it is a subject that rarely gets that treatment.

But even beyond the story telling skill I find that I really like the specifics. I love Taiyaki's wry, low key humour (the Venn diagram was my fav, but lots of others), and most of all I find Asuka incredibly relatable (though all the characters are pretty good).

I've never been romantically attracted to my mother, but apart from that she is basically me as a teenager. Quiet, into science and mathematics, avoiding humanities, she isn't particularly interested in people (hates crowds!) and doesn't have any real friends (just acquaintances). She's not lazy, but she isn't motivated either; she succeeds in school, but mostly through intelligence rather than hard work. She over-thinks and analyses every action and interaction, but almost always just "goes with the flow" (the Miyuki arc is a good demonstration of this).

I never expected to particularly like a character who resembled myself, but I have a real soft spot for that earnest little would-be mother-f*cker (which I suppose brings us back to good writing, lol).

Wow, this is on the front page "Most Popular of Past 7 Days", less niche than I thought.

*EDIT: I can't find the raws, it's probably in fanbox and I'm too uninformed to easily make a USD to JPY purchase online, for now. Not that I can afford it)

They are up on her twitter:
https://twitter.com/tiyk66/status/1228320926262910981
https://twitter.com/tiyk66/status/1228690932565827585

edit: the note beside the pile seems to be: 会社でもらったやつ

last edited at Feb 19, 2020 5:08AM

So is anyone else getting crypto-het/male pov surrogate vibes off this?

So is anyone else getting Professionally Offended vibes off this?

Not offended, just that it is something I sometimes notice reading yuri, and I was wondering if other people did. There are other interpretations too. It just seemed very conspicuous in this case because Hayami was set up pining for a good f*cking... then doesn't really seem to get one (so maybe more unsatisfied than offended).

last edited at Feb 15, 2020 7:22PM

So is anyone else getting crypto-het/male pov surrogate vibes off this? The sex has a strong emphasis on penetration (of Kohashi), Hayami (as pov char) is always on top, and attention is never drawn to her gender - eg no touching of her breasts or genitals, in the first sex scene she keeps her underwear on. We don't see much of her sexual experience at all, almost as if "she" blew her load when penetrating Kohashi.

Interesting thought - if Kaoru and Uta reconcile and work out some sort of emotional support compromise, it may be an interesting symmetry with Reiichi and Risako. Both Kaoru and Reiichi finding what they want from marriage with someone outside of it.

You know, when I first read this (way back when the Onsen arc was new), and then along with all the updates, I was kind of on Uta's side.

But I just re-read the whole manga, and man, she is such a selfish child.
Cutting someone you love out of your life completely (which is what I infer by the use of the black word balloon Ch. 25, Pg 27), someone who clearly loves you back, just not in the same way, someone whom you admit brings you joy and happiness because, what, because it hurts that you can't have more?

I really wouldn't attach too much blame to either of them. It is a difficult situation, Uta is fairly mature, but she is still young and inexperienced, still in school. She doesn't really have much choice about her mom taking her away, so to a great extent she is probably just trying to make the best of the situation - she didn't come up with a plan to move away, she just chose what she thought was the best path of action with the situation she found herself in.

Kaoru was being a "selfish child" too. Kaoru was stubbornly refusing to accept that things needed to change between them, refusing to acknowledge Uta's feelings and the pain her denial was causing Uta. It wasn't sustainable, so something had to give, Uta is trying to protect herself, but she is also trying to do the right thing. If Kaoru had engaged, Uta probably wouldn't have felt the need to cut off contact entirely. It is unlikely she realises how much Kaoru relied on her (Kaoru didn't either), so it isn't really fair to blame her for Kaoru's crisis (it wouldn't be a fair load to drop on a teenager anyway).

Conversely I don't think it was entirely wrong for Kaoru to accept the support Uta freely offered over the years, but she does need to be considerate of the cost for Uta (especially since Kaoru is the adult). Yet, when Uta reached out and tried to explain, she went into hard denial. If she is serious about being sisters, she needs to push down her own discomfort to help Uta. Ask Uta about her feelings, talk it out, and ask how she can make it easier (maybe lead the way by being honest about her own needs, and thanking Uta for what she has done up to now).

I'm sorry but I can't and don't wanna imagine myself with my mom shivers

When you are reading middle/high school manga are you imagining yourself with schoolgirls? (Maybe I don't want to know).

I have a couple of good rants about independence and time-skips/taking a break in general, but I'm late for work, so maybe later.

I love that you made this post even though you are already late for work. We are so dedicated to this manga that we don't care about our own lives anymore LOL

Flextime, so just means I have to work later, though I try to be in at a reasonable time.

But I've read 1 x ½ at least 6 times now and I only found it a couple of months ago, so maybe a bit dedicated too.

if this story is going to end in a positive place for both of them, a timeskip and some time apart is probably necessary

"time apart" would be making Asuka an orphan (severing emotional ties with her only parent, and to a large extent her only family). Destroying familial relationships, which is what I was talking about being the risk with incest.

It seems like a lot of people are seeing their familial relationship as a direct obstacle to their romance here, probably because it is hard for them to emphasise with mixing the two. But for the characters it is different.

Asuka didn't fall in love with some older woman who just happened to be related to her, she fell in love with her mother, in the role of her mother. We've seen in earlier chapters - she doesn't feel there is a line between her familial feelings and her romantic ones. In her fantasies she calls Ayako "mom" while having sex; she doesn't like using her name. She considered the "if you were strangers" scenario when Miyuki suggested it, she didn't like it.

Even Ayako the problem isn't being able to mix maternal and sexual feelings... she just did, that is what she is feeling guilty and ashamed about. Abandoning Asuka wouldn't fix her feelings of being a failure as a mother, it would consolidate them.

I have a couple of good rants about independence and time-skips/taking a break in general, but I'm late for work, so maybe later.

last edited at Jan 27, 2020 5:50PM

Do you feel like there might be a time skip in the future? Akira pointed out that whole waiting 2 years thing, then there was that one lady at the wedding talking about putting a research team together, and now Ayako’s left....
Some time apart would benefit them. They need to figure out whether they love each other out of necessity or desperation.
They both need some time to grow without the other....

Mother and dependent daughter can't actually take time apart, that is kind of the problem that Akira was pointing out.
It's the fundamental problem with incest, you're stuck with family, so you have to tread very carefully.

[...] age-gap between Asuka and Miyuki than senpai and kohai = a year or two) [...]

FYI Miyuki is four years older than Asuka - she was in fifth grade when Asuka was in first, and in final year high school (17 or 18) when she tried to seduce her (Asuka second year middle school, 14).

I'm pretty sure the post the post you were responding to is just humour/trolling about the tangled relationships... and even more farfetched/tangled fan-theories.
Edit: tho the way these comments have been going I suppose Poe's law applies.

last edited at Jan 27, 2020 4:59AM

But can y'all imagine Asuka running to Akiras place and just NOT letting her mom stay over Akiras place! Lol

Yes, although it will depend on how Asuka reads the situation: if she thinks Ayako is blaming her, she may be afraid to face her. If she (correctly) thinks Ayako is blaming herself... then there will be no stopping her on her mission of reassurance.

A lot may depend on Akira (particularly in the first scenario)... unlike Ayako she seemed to take Asuka's feelings seriously from the start (but probably believed Ayako would never reciprocate, despite teasing her). Akira is in a good position to talk Ayako down and clear up misunderstandings between them... but faced with real possibility of them getting together... does she want to?

Why the hell did Asuka tell her to stop? That was your moment dammit. Your wing woman set it up for you girl! Jeez.

Even Asuka realise Ayako wasn't really in her right mind and even if she wants it, she know that doing it here will only leave regrets for both of them because Ayako isn't fully ready to go all the way.

Yes! Asuka doesn't just want to have sex with her mother, she is in love with her and wants a relationship. Her greatest hope is for her mother to reciprocate her feelings, but she cares about her, and she doesn't want hurt her or have her her to do something she will regret afterwards.

Asuka's greatest fear is that her mother will be disgusted, reject and abandon her... which makes Ayako's leaving rather unfortunate.

sexual abuse leads to kinks and promiscuous behavior

You're gonna wanna think about amending your opinions by doing some reading and research. I won't say it never happens, but this blanket statement is troubling in and of itself for many reasons.

As a child I was pressed into things with a relative and a friend of that relative a handful of times. I also fought off an attempted rape in a middle school bathroom. And I came out completely normal. I'm obsessed with incest stories. I've had 5 separate dreams of having sex with immediate family members, at least once for each. I sometimes get into things like watersports. I've... got other kinks that I will never tell anyone. Isn't everyone like this?

Yep I'm perfectly normal despite sexual abuse as a child.

I only said it because I’m in the same boat and know many others who are the same
Also there's an extensive body of studies and evidence out there.

Not wanting to put words in anyone's mouth, but from my pov the problem was that you framed it as a blanket statement - an inevitability or at least highly probable. Your full post was:

people who suffer child abuse exhibit mental troubles as adults
have yall seen the show about all sorts of weird addictions/OCDs that people have? pretty much all those people have been abused as kids
sexual abuse leads to kinks and promiscuous behavior

All three statements read as strong certain assertions. It wouldn't have been a problem if less definite, eg "can lead to", otherwise it seems like you are all child sexual abuse victims are like this.

It really isn't so. CSA is an "iceberg" problem in our society, you see the tip, survivors who's lives are a wreck, but the majority are unseen, people who though some combination of recovery or repression are living "normal" lives. You could meet them, even be friends with them and you would never know (ironically the same applies for abusers too).

Due to genetics and environment people vary in their stress and anxiety responses, in their tendency to develop lasting trauma and in resilience and their ability to recover (and the support networks they have). Some people shrug off events that would wreck others, and vice versa. People prone to anxiety can be traumatised by a reaction to a "normal" event.

It isn't about blame or weakness - we don't blame someone with brittle bones for getting a fracture if they get knocked down, even though an average person would just walk away from the same event.

Effects can be exacerbated because abusers pick vulnerable victims - children who are already isolated, marginalised or different.

One of the problems is that survivors are afraid to come forward, and one of the reasons they are afraid is that they may get stereotyped as broken, fucked up, prone to sexual deviancy (that and the misperception they will be prone to be abusers themselves - that is a real doozie).

People in the kink community tend to be much more open about sexual issues, including abuse - "normal" people aren't just going to walk up to you and talk about it, so this tends to distort your perception (and people on reality TV are literally pre-screened to have a salacious backstory and be fucked-up in one way or another)

Getting to the research issue I didn't notice anything specifically on "kink", but in general the headline correlations are depression, self-harm/suicide, anxiety, substance abuse and re-victimisation. The literature reviews I checked all listed some combination of these (Wikipedia did too, so good for them). In addition there is some research suggesting a moderate level of correlation with "high risk sexual behaviour" and/or sexual promiscuity - but bear in mind this just means it is somewhat more likely among CSA survivors than the general population - many don't, and many others show this behaviour without any abuse history. Also worth noting that almost all the issues above are associated with trauma and PTSD in general, and in addition have a strong genetic component.

Just so this isn't completely OT: Ayako doesn't show consistent signs of any of those headline correlations.

Interesting links:
Literature review done for Australian Government (Institute of Family Studies) "The long-term effects of child sexual abuse" https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/long-term-effects-child-sexual-abuse/export
One of their key findings: "Not all victims experience these difficulties"

Not relevant here, but since I'm on the subject, I think everyone should read this before talking about CSA: https://aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi429 "Misperceptions about child sex offenders.", Richards 2011, Trends & issues in crime and criminal justice no. 429. Canberra: Australian Institute of Criminology.

I'm feeling very optimistic about Asuka/Ayako after this chapter:
Ayako has very obviously been in denial up to this point (as if sharing a bed permanently is as simple as making sure there is enough room). Logically, if the relationship was ever going to get further than an "accidental" one night stand, she had to face reality, that it is a sexual relationship with her own daughter. There had to be a point where her denial is shattered, and the earlier that happens the lower the stakes (and the angst). What just happened was almost the least dramatic way that could happen (at least so far) - without doing anything too unforgivable she has finally faced up to the fact that what they are doing is romantic-sexual in nature, and furthermore, that she wants it. She freaked out, honestly it would be a worse sign for her mental health if she didn't, and has gone away for a day to get her head together.

tbh I don't think she has really been taking Asuka seriously, that Asuka really does want to "go all the way", wants to be her lover. She may not even have got there yet, since the is preoccupied by her own revelations.

"Asuka is my ..." she still can't even think the sentence, but now she keeps coming back to it, and that weight tells us she is finally taking it seriously. At the start of the series Asuka had had two years to get used to her feelings, and she still felt disgusted by herself. Ayako has had less than a day.

I saw this coming Asuka is moments away from getting what she claims she wanted only to get cold feet at the last possible second, and Ayako completely freaking out knowing what she was about to do. Completely predictable outcome.

I think mostly she was worried by Ayako's sudden change in behaviour and wanted reassurance everything was ok (that and her legs were about to give out!).

I'm inclined to see her as demi (functionally ace/aro until Asuka started pushing her buttons).

Still feeling pretty good about this interpretation even after the new part, and also my previous comments about alexithymia (see my posting history for more detailed discussion).
Link again for good measure since the condition is not very well known: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia
Wp definition: "Alexithymia is a personality construct characterized by the subclinical inability to identify and describe emotions experienced by one's self or others."

That's what I think her "someone like me" comment was about (or asexuality which has similar implications), the self-doubt that she is even capable of real feelings/relationships. Up until now her maternal feelings for Asuka have been the one (emotional) thing she was absolutely certain of... and now that is shattered.

Feeling guilty/ashamed after all but assaulting your 16 year old daughter in a fit of jealous lust is pretty natural. She doesn't understand her own motives so she can't even start to forgive herself (or realise that Asuka wasn't particularly upset).

I won't bother with spoiler format, since I'm only discussing earlier chapters:
If Ayako saw herself as a lesbian I really don't think she would have so lightly proposed kissing Asuka after she confessed (and been so surprised when it escalated).
Also the carefree way she shrugs off Akira's flirting. She has a child and her husband has been gone for 16 years... if she had any impulse to settle down with a woman she has had plenty of opportunity, as observed in earlier chapters Ayako and Akira were functionally Asuka's parents in the early years, but it appears Ayako never tried to make it into a relationship (even though Akira desired it).

I'm inclined to see her as demi (functionally ace/aro until Asuka started pushing her buttons).

I agree with this conclusion. But the thing I find weird is that she would be trying to win Uta back for the wrong reasons. I don't think she loves Uta romantically, she is just emotionally dependent on her. I mean, could that be considered healthy? It would be best if she learns to stand on her own, and then, later on, decides on her own that she loves Uta, rather than out of desperation.

"Wrong reasons", and what is healthy can be rather context specific. Kaoru's needs aren't unreasonable - she isn't demanding constant attention/affirmation/compliments, or demanding Uta drop everything to attend to her, she just needs regular social contact & someone to "be there" when she is feeling low. She seems to be able to handle a day or two, it was long unexpected delays that seemed to be getting to her (and case-by-case relationship drama back when she was at school)... a lot of people "need" social contact at this level. The idea that everyone should be able to stand "alone against the world" is BS, humans are a social species (often it is just a storytelling technique - a way to "show" independence). But I do get the feeling if Kaoru left Reiichi her emotional support needs would actually decrease a lot, since his unreliability seems to cause a lot of her crises.

It is important to be aware of how you interact with others, and try to keep things healthy and balanced. Uta liked being there for Kaoru, her only problem was the pain/frustration of not being able to have more. Obviously Kaoru's initial attempt to get Uta to just deny her feelings was a selfish impulse, but longer term it is not unusual for people to re-evaluate their relationships when faced with change. Fear of loss can show us just how deeply we care about someone. She may come to the conclusion that her feelings aren't that far removed from romantic love.

I wouldn't put it past her to behave a little badly in the first instance if she is lonely/panicking (she already has, but maybe for a bit longer), but in the overall feelings are mutable and sometimes there isn't that much difference between "kinds" of love (in either direction). Cynically faking feelings to get Uta back, or trying to trap her back into the way things were would be bad, but pushing a bit trying to find a compromise, or re-framing her already intense love and "leaning in" to the romantic aspect instead of away from it could be healthy. Equally Uta may decide her platonic desire to care for Kaoru trumps her romantic feelings, and find a way to deal.

A plausible first conversion would be telling Uta how lonely she has been, how much she misses her and how much she means to her, with some apology and thanks thrown in... which could be seen as emotional blackmail, but on the other hand is basically the same as Uta did to her (dumping a load of inconvenient feelings).

I think the main reason for a break, leaving Reiichi some time before anything happens with Uta, is back to story telling again - it would make it clear that she left Reiichi for herself, because the marriage failed, not simply to "upgrade" (also avoid casting Uta as a homewrecker).

does anyone believe uta and kaoru can still be endgame or am i just holding onto false hope

I certainly wouldn't rule it out, the author is definitely keeping that option open. Kaoru's dissatisfaction with Reiichi is at an all time high, and she is starting to take a good hard look at her life, which will probably include acknowledging how much Uta had been supporting her before she left, and how little she is getting out of her marriage.

It also looks like Kaoru and Reiichi will probably break up ("making it work" is possible, but probably wouldn't be good for either of them. Their problems seem to be deeper than miscommunication, with a fundamental mismatch of personalities & expectations, so I don't think the story will go there). With Kaoru single, Kaoru/Uta becomes a lot more possible (I don't think Uta would be ok with cheating).

Communication about feelings and expectations has been a recurring theme in the series, and I think Kaoru and Uta have quite a lot left to do. Kaoru hasn't yet been able to fully and honestly express her feelings (whatever they are) to Uta, she couldn't even form words when trying to stop Uta leaving, and she hasn't really responded to Uta's confession either - we have seen shock and denial, but not a response based on processing it.

I think we will know a lot more about the intended direction when that conversation happens (we also don't know how Uta has been going with her "cold turkey" approach).

Plausible post, circamoore, but could you say some more about how the apparent discrepancy between Risako admitting to Uta that she was at the scene of Kaoru’s accident and her denial to Kaoru of having seen Reiichi since the wedding fits into your theory?

If she is provoking suspicion, conflicting stories are part of it. She didn't admit it directly to Kaoru, and she didn't tell Uta her name. The most obvious explanation is that Reiichi made her promise not to tell Kaoru, she might even find using the loophole amusing. Alternatively she may just have known or guessed by this point that Kaoru didn't remember (someone called Reiichi at the hospital, presumably it was Risako) so bringing the phone herself instead of via Reiichi was a pretty effective way to make Kaoru suspect her presence, without making it seem deliberate (Kaoru has resisted "frontal" attacks before). Meeting Uta, she recognised an even better opportunity - she could make it seem like she didn't want Kaoru to know she was involved/didn't want to face her, but still ensure that she found out everything. If she hadn't run into Uta she might have used a different tactic, eg left the phone with a nurse, while making sure Kaoru found out.

Affair or not (personally I think maybe emotional cheating, but probably not physical), it would explain quite a lot if Reiichi has make Risako promise not to tell Kaoru they've been interacting... and by doing so he played into her hands (making it seem worse than it is, and making the lies his fault).

Looking at that scene reminds me of when it seemed that Risako wanted Reiichi for herself, and that Reiichi might have been cheating (I'd forgotten just how strong the implication was)... I still wouldn't rule that out, the "split up Kaoru and Reiichi" aim would be the same. Both could be true - she could genuinely feel Reiichi is unsuitable for Kaoru but suitable for herself.

Edit: .. or her ch 11 musings about "could have been me" with Reiichi were of the "phew, dodged a bullet" variety.

last edited at Jan 22, 2020 8:20PM

This will give Nanaki the opportunity to be able to interpret her feelings for Kanade as romantic love.

Nice! Nanaki has been fumbling towards a way to describe her not-exactly-friend feelings and Izumi just told her, kind of a spectacular own-goal (esp since Izumi previously equated her feelings/actions towards Nanaki with Nanaki's towards Kanade). If Nanaki is feeling particularly cruel she can thank Izumi for finally giving her a good tip.

It is hard to come up with a coherent driver for Risako's behaviour - but I recently had an idea that seems like it may fit.

It is clear that Risako does care about Kaoru - she was the only one of her friends that came when she was sick (likely Uta didn't know!). A romantic interest is seeming somewhat possible given the talk about jealousy, but her actions have been a decidedly mixed bag when it comes to getting closer to Kaoru vs hurting her.

We could pass that off as Risako being a clumsy teen, but it has continued even into the present when she is clearly quite poised and accomplished (and knows Kaoru very well, so likely can anticipate her reactions). When we look closely one thing is absolutely consistent - she has always been working to push Kaoru away from Reiichi, even at the expense of her own relationship with Kaoru or of Kaoru's feelings.

Risako has talked about how she admires and envies Kaoru's ability to live passionately and follow her emotions. The series has touched on unconventional relationships - what if it is more like a excessive stage-mom/coach, she is trying to drive Kaoru to achieve her "living passionately" potential, and she is prepared to hurt her feelings in the process (protecting her from mediocrity, Snape style).

Looking at it that way, early on Risako decided Reiichi was bad for Kaoru (seems to have been proved right over time), initially just advising her to give up, then escalated to dating him (getting him to keep away from Kaoru as a condition), then rubbing her face in it when just dating wasn't putting her off enough, and more recently she has moved on to trying to fan her paranoia about Reiichi having an affair.

From her point of view Kaoru is suffocating in an empty husk of marriage.

Her reaction to hearing that someone younger had confessed to Kaoru was interesting - while the others were making comments she kept her face neutral and was watching Kaoru's reaction; when she did say something it was in such a way as to disparage Kaoru's attractiveness ("baby face and body like a stick")... which seems almost calculated to send her looking for affirmation from someone who finds her attractive... and Risako knows that isn't Reiichi. Afterwards it seemed like she made a point of raising the topic of her being with Reiichi.

If she finds out about Uta, her reaction will be pretty diagnostic - will she try to scheme against the competition, or will she try to encourage a scandalous passionate affair (with side benefit of really killing things with Reiichi).