As for "any Westerner", someone from e.g. France or Italy might not even divide history up the same way English speaking history does.

The broad categories are the same, and indeed the Renaissance (Rebirth) was named by thinkers at the time. (That point about the name is seldom taught, even at a college level.)

I do know I read a translated French book that used 'classical period' very differently than "classical Greece and Rome".

What is called “classical” is dependent upon the subject; for example, it means different things in music and in economics.

But “Mediaeval”, “Middle Ages”, and the analogous terms in other European languages are used for the span from the fall of Rome to the supposed Rebirth that began in the Fifteenth Century and lasted until the Reformation took hold.

And you're misusing the term “layman”. While I would agree that not many people particularly care, any westerner who paid attention in grade school would know that “medieval” refers to the period between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Renaissance. So we're not writing about laypeople as such; we're writing about people who didn't pay attention, or later just said ​“fukkit” to what they learned.

{end snip}

Uwahh, do you realise how obnoxiously pedantic you come off as?

Oh, I understand that people being called-out for laziness are going to look for excuses, and tell themselves that any fault here is mine.

The point is that fantasy, stereotypically, takes place in a low-tech world, ie, pre-industrialisation.

No, since that was never disputed, it's plainly not the point.

You could as well claim that any story that were pre-indusrial could be called “stone age”, because the paleolithic and neolithic periods were also pre-industrial.

To somebody who is not a historian, or in other words a layman (since I have to spell this out for you), it might as well mean "old".

What was already spelled out was that it isn't just historians who know better, but you're trying to power-through that point. And I also explained (to your evident irritation) why laypeople ought to have a general understanding of how the social order has evolved.

the reality is that if you took 10 people off the street at random and had them read this manga, approximately zero of them would say "this is post-Renaissance fantasy" when asked to describe the setting.

That's also not under dispute.

Your usage of 'grade school' suggests that you're American, but the idea that American schoolchildren under the age of 10 are well-enough educated on European history to differentiate the eras is, frankly, preposterous.

It is preposterous to someone who either didn't attend American grade school and guesses wrongly about it, or did so somnabulistically.

I'm not a historian. I attended state-run grade schools in three different districts. A small set of publishers dominate the market for school-books, and nearly all publishers, in or out of this set, try to produce books conforming to the curricular demands of the biggest markets. So I know what was taught in almost every American grade school at the time.

There's no reason to stoop to the level of insulting people's intelligence by suggesting that they're more moronic than a child for not being that informed;

First, I didn't attribute not learning or forgetting to stupidity. But, second, to think that children are “moronic” for being uninformed is, well, itself pretty damn'd stupid.

as a non-European myself, I didn't learn anything meaningful about European history until I studied it in university.

If you're a westerner, that's your fault, and getting angry at me won't magically change things. (If you're not a westerner, then you shouldn't treat your conjecture about the curriculum as certain truth.)

It might be easier for people to learn and retain an understanding of history if popular culture didn't get so much wrong, but people such as you rise up in counter-objection when a comment is made, and then want to debate when your counter-objection is rebutted.

last edited at Jun 27, 2021 5:17AM

The popularity of sadistic, misogynistic Japanese pornography saddens me.

Broadly speaking, I think "medieval" is interchangeable with "pre-industrialisation" to the layman. I don't think the average person cares to distinguish between medieval fantasy and Renaissance-era fantasy.

Again, this fantasy is set in a world like that after the Renaissance.

And you're misusing the term “layman”. While I would agree that not many people particularly care, any westerner who paid attention in grade school would know that “medieval” refers to the period between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the Renaissance. So we're not writing about laypeople as such; we're writing about people who didn't pay attention, or later just said ​“fukkit” to what they learned.

Given that, in turn, this means that they aren't well positioned to understand how we got where we are, where we could be, or where we are currently being led, that's quite unfortunate. Indeed, as the story develops, it becomes clear that the author conceives of only two social orders as possible, aristocracy and the welfare state.

In the web novel the two fights (Seine vs Yuu and Rod vs Misha) were separate "chapters" which means that the manga is actually faster paced thanks to it being visual instead.

Okay; but it still offered far too little story for 30-something pages. I have learned that the power exhibitted by one of the characters has some bearing on a later chapter such that if one accepts the importance of that later story-telling, then some laboring was useful, but still too little story was delivered.

The setting is just your run of the mill medieval fantasy world,

This world is not like the Mediaeval period. In fact, it's closest to something post-Renaissance. There doesn't seem to be or have been anything like a Reformation, but the standard-of-living seems about that of the Enlightenment, and Leveller sentiment is stirring.

(well, technically they're not chapters but it's the only term I can think of.

“installment”

Chapter 11 did very little other than to set-up a cliff-hanger. There was not enough story for more than thirty pages.

Well, it's just following the novel exactly, this is just what happened in it.

Since the mode of story-telling is different, a one-to-one chapter adaptation would be unlikely to be the best telling in the adaptation, even on the assumption that the original had used each chapter wisely.

Chapter 11 did very little other than to set-up a cliff-hanger. There was not enough story for more than thirty pages.

The volume categorization needs correction. Chapters 6 through 11 are in Volume 2; chapters 12 through 19 are in Volume 3.

Two people who seem not to have fallen in love seem as if they're not going fall in love, and some people are irked about that. Me, I'm interested to read about two girls who have an odd but not unhealthy relationship. The only thing that I don't like here is that Aya's delayed maturation threatens to leave her with quite limited options.

Once again, in chapter 58 Nadeshiko is almost reflexively perfect.

Sorry, but this series is just excellent.

To be fair, this particular corner of English is a nightmare for native speakers, much less folks coming to it as a second (or more) language.

The term “nightmare” is worse than wild hyperbole. Native speakers of social classes corresponding to most of these characters are fairly well-read and surrounded by people who use the proper forms.

[1] For non-native translators, reference books are available, and one can create tables and pin these to the wall; and [2] even a broken clock is right twice a day, whereas these failures are consistent, a result of mis-learning.

The real problem is of people thinking that they can learn English from informal Internet communication, which is largely with other non-native writers and with under-educated native speakers.

The results actually works well enough when the translation is dialogue (rather than impersonal narration) and the characters are supposed to be under-educated; but most of these characters are suppose to have gone or be going through a demanding educational system.

“have swum”, not “have swam”

It seems as if the various translators work very hard never to use strong verbs (especially “drink”) properly.

Excellent.

Yes indeed, where were her mammers?

Broken moral compass.