Forum › Posts by Licentious Lantern
The villainess role is to be a stepping stone for other characters to grow or achieve self-actualization. This is just a narrative fact. But in a real living world things cannot be so clean cut, people are not character growth catalysts. It seems that the game did not really go into the prince's thoughts on Lapis much at all. It frames the events very differently.
Even now things that happen out of turn are only existing events however. Like the line that should have happened in the final battle being used dismissively now. The pieces are the same, but context changes. Intriguing.
Even the prince knows that Diana's interest in Natori is "impure" haha
Funny you say that when It's even contested among the experts...
Oh the popularized form of Stockholm syndrome is not accepted as a clinical term at all, I'm talking about the underlying concept of traumatic bonding and suspension bridge effect. Attachment to captor or abuser. These phenomena are real. I assumed that the concept itself was put into question rather than the colloquial term used for it.
It is always curious how a simple joke from my initial post can be used as a platform to deep dive into at best tangential topics. But I suppose if posters are willing to find discourse about Machiavelli in a gag manga nothing is off the table.
Is there such a thing as being Stockholm'd into becoming wingwomen?
There probably isn't generally such a thing as Stockholm syndrome at all.
That is just not true. The phenomenon is very real (at least in certain applications), regardless of whether the original case applies or not. It is completely within human psychology, it is the same reason people keep loving their abusers or people sympathize more with the villain. A mixture of the suspension bridge effect and the need to fix another individual.
Then again, every person on the internet considers themselves more qualified than experts on every topic, so we are both most likely not going to revolutionize psychology with our thoughts.
Hiyama is more of a glass cannon than I thought xD
It was made rather clear across the last few chapters already. Every time Kimura would show any assertiveness at all Hiyama immediately crumbled. Though I agree that her case of glass-cannon-itis is remarkable.
last edited at May 11, 2023 12:49AM
Is there such a thing as being Stockholm'd into becoming wingwomen? I believe Hiyama's sidekicks would fit that description. Mizushima-kun has awakened to voyeurism completely now (also if you think something someone says is lewd then your mind is in the gutter too).
Kimura's Shoujo protagonist sensibilities lead her to have a different understanding of what expressing affection scales as. In Shoujo manga a cheek kiss is often merely a gesture of thanks or friendly affection that the male love interests don't read too much into as they are also thick as bricks. Hiyama on the other hand is an affection starved lone wolf who has not had much contact with people in her life before high school. And their constant cat and mouse game (of which half was in her own mental fabrication) has made her unable to process reciprocation.
My favorite part of this chapter may well be Hiyama defaulting to her usual standoffish facade when she told Kimura to treat her nicely from now on, as if that was a high demand she believes Kimura would not follow up on. It shows how surface all her posturing has always been, although I think by now Kimura already knows that plenty.
last edited at May 10, 2023 2:25AM
To be honest, I think this is one of the series that deserves "Parody" tag.
Because it so obviously is parodying the typical misunderstanding-romance tropes at every step, and pushing them to the breaking point and past it. There's no way to take this at face value, and you shouldn't try.
Unfortunately the way the manga is executed doesn't work too well with that premise. Suspension of disbelief is stronger or weaker the more distorted the world of a story becomes. In a proper comedy that is patently absurd on purpose in all its facets it is easy to suspend one's disbelief, because we are not meant to perceive these interactions as realistic or sound. You can watch slapstick comedy and never once fear for the character's well-being, because it is all enjoyably fake.
Meanwhile this manga has tonal issues. Ayaka appears to be from a romantic drama, while Hiroko stepped straight out of a romantic comedy. You can't laugh at the absurdity when you genuinely feel the heartbreak and pain of Ayaka not getting through to the cartoon character that is Hiroko.
This dissonance is most likely why many have negative reactions now. I have read plenty of works with slowburn romance, misunderstanding based drama or even a seemingly unbreakable status quo. But people are more forgiving of those when there is a coherence to the emotions and plot. The misunderstanding must be something that can be misunderstood by a human being (even if it could be solved simply by talking once as usual). The love interests usually do not confess directly out of some personal circumstance. Ayaka left not room for interpretation. The only move she could still pull is to outright kiss Hiroko, but even then author will find an excuse.
It's just suffering for suffering's sake.
This level of forced misunderstandings and unnecessary prolonged suffering is highly unappealing to me and borders on sadistic. This author managed to firmly break through my range for suspension of disbelief. Unfortunately I will drop this now, despite the unqiue artstyle.
last edited at May 9, 2023 1:15AM
The Tohsaka incest pairing has actually always been a staple of the Fate fanbase. There is certainly an indescribably electrifying dynamic between Rin and Sakura. This doujin in particular seemed to be in the subtext category more than anything, relying more on the sisterly part of their interactions, but if the artist does proper yuri works for them it is not too hard to see the hints here as well.
It is ironic that Rin has pairings with most characters in the story, perhaps more than even Shirou. As the deuteragonist she certainly has enough reason to get involved. Her canonical bisexuality also enables pairings far more easily.
As for what route this is based on, as there is no sign of Saber and both Shirou and Illya are alive, only the Fate route would make sense... The fact that they don't seem too surprised of seeing dark grail Sakura beyond how she arrived would imply Heaven's Feel though. But the Fate/Hollow Ataraxia scenario is far more likely overall. F/HA is full of random and seemingly nonsensical events like this and it mixes information and plot points from all possible routes, meaning Sakura being revealed as Rin's sister, Illya being alive, Rin living at the Emiya household and the awarenss of Dark Sakura would all make sense.
What I particularly liked about this work are the subtle things. To Sakura who always yearned for her sister's affection (platonic or otherwise), but was unable to approach her or get involved with her there are not many opportunities to get spoiled. Indeed, the only positive interaction between them in the entire Fate/Stay Night visual novel is when Rin accepts Sakura even as she is possessed by all the evils in the world. The scene was recreated here with the embrace of dark Sakura and to a player who gets the context this is basically the most affectionate "spoiling" that Rin can possibly deliver to her sister. That's why she baited her into it I surmise, by asking her to kill her. Rin expresses her kindness in rejecting that notion and that's enough.
Oh and for those who are not aware, Rin is skilled only at making Chinese food. She also learned Chinese martial arts (both most likely a result of growing up around Kotomine Kirei). So Sakura wishing to make Chinese food is a gesture to invite Rin to tutor her.
last edited at May 8, 2023 3:27PM
You would think that a staunch lesbian womanizer with 50 conquests and dating experience to the max would have a better gaydar than that.
Indeed, I believe Hiyama's flunkies can take credit for the outcome this time. Their scheme is the reason Hiyama could bumble her ways into getting a confession from Kimura.
Of course they have been aware of Hiyama's crush on Kimura for ages. She never fails to tell them after all. Perhaps I will be giving them too much credit myself now, but I believe they went through some character development too. The cronies were introduced as leeches who only hang out with Hiyama because she is the popular girl, but by now they seem genuinely distressed by her depressed mood and actively wished to help her as friends (even if they defaulted to their usual dastardly scheming to do it).
How... peculiar of Mizushima to come running for Kimura instead of diffusing the situation himself. Is this too part of his subconscious desire for drama? The proverbial rollercoaster he felt addicted to? He may not be such a good boy after all, although it worked out splendidly because of that.
Ultimately I'm most impressed with Kimura for first not believing the tall tale of the mob girls and then when seemingly confronted with "proof" she still stuck to her guns. That possessive streak is really growing into a full-blown charater trait. I will be looking forward to Hiyama completely falling apart now that she got what she wished for~
last edited at May 5, 2023 1:13PM
I'll keep defending that my "het" title choices are good though, hahaha
I could not disagree more, no offense. It is mostly generic stuff that people would not even read on sites that focus on het works. They only stand out on Dynasty, because well, it is a yuri focused site. There also seems to be a certain pattern to your preferences/fetishes involved... Oh well.
Of course as long as the staff does not mind you are free to post whatever you want. We have had far more complicated releases across the years that are far more deserving of... let's call it "controversy". People overreacting to your harmless releases need to simmer down considerably. Yes, they are not really suited for this site at all, but ultimately it's not hurting anyone. The site is not flooded by het content or anything.
You see in the covers the roles get reversed
Indeed the Volume 4 cover still has them in the kabedon position, but Hiyama is looking away shyly and Kimura confidently intercepted her hand and is weaving their fingers together. It is quite the nice contrast.
Volume 4 is shaping up to be the crescendo of the series. Everything about it right now is perfect. Kimura is using the Shoujo manga trope of improving yourself for your love interest for the sake of yuri now. She understands her own feelings now and is starting to comprehend Hiyama's erratic thought patterns as well. I believe she already instinctively could tell Hiyama's true thoughts and wishes before, but now she is actively working with those assumptions... and succeeds.
Mizushima (finally elevated from boytoy status) has awakened to the yuridanshi side it appears. He has been more or less a plot device for most of the manga and a total doofus, but I'm now honestly glad for such a refreshing take on an eyesore role. He knows exactly where he stands and he just seems to enjoy when the people around him are happy. Playing wingman is clearly not his strong suit, but at least his straightforward honesty resolved a lot of issues.
There was a rough patch with all the misunderstanding drama and the world-shattering logical nonsense of Kimura thinking Hiyama would consider her weird for liking her (what happened to the last 30ish chapters of her confessing every day, Kimura you dolt?), but the moment she finally stopped deceiving herself things have only become positive. And even that very tedious drama was actually a really clever subversion of Shoujo manga tropes. Every line and set-up was so misleading on purpose. I think I have never appreciated how being dedicated to sticking to a Shoujo manga script while still totally being 100% yuri is quite amazing.
Natori's feelings for Lapis have gone beyond employer/employee for quite some time.
It was not my intention to imply Natori actually feels only a platonic employer/employee bond between them, but rather that she is capable of deluding herself into thinking such. By default she has created her own barrier that prevents her from accepting that it is anything else.
I'd also argue that Diana is like her "Oshi."
Hence why I said she is like her idol and solace...
She blushes in the way any character does in manga when someone presses them or flatters them but it's been platonic when compared to how she blushes for Lapis and how she's specifically thought about Lapis
...however like with most cases of idol obssession it is nearly always a delusion to claim it to be purely platonic. Especially when that idol suits your sexuality. To twist Natori's reaction to Diana into platonic territory would be the same as claiming her attraction to Lapis is purely employee/master platonic. In both cases one would have to purposefully ignore the intention.
She treats Diana like a young naive girl to be doted on and protected. In fact she's actually referred to Diana as a small 15 year old girl.
Lapis is in the same age range. They are both far younger than her. Naievete is not contra to feeling romantic affection anyway. The desire to protect a lover or dote on them is inherently natural. Natori has the same intentions for Lapis with the difference that she expresses it differently.
I think these two are far more similar cases than some people may want to admit.
Diana will lose Natori because she simply wants to protect Natori.
Lapis wants Natori to grow and to become a proper individual. She will protect her if she needs to but I think she's wanting Natori to be her own person. Natori, in theory, will eventually recognize that (as well as the fact that Lapis makes her heart race and that she, herself, wants Lapis to change and grow because she loves her).
It's not enough to want to treasure someone you love, which is what Diana wants currently, one has to be willing to encourage and push your beloved to better heights.
It is somewhat ironic that the last two chapters are rather strong counter to this claim, at least in regards to Diana.
She has (much like Lapis) taken note of Natori's self-depreciating nature and actively wishes for her to acknowledge her own worth. You are correct that she plays a more active role and approaches problems in the way of a protector, but I think the most significant moment of their interactions until now was when she told Natori not to look down on herself.
In my view the difference between Diana and Lapis is their approach towards the same goal. Lapis sees Nator's virtues and tries to nurture them until she reaches her potential and sees her self-worth. Diana is far more straightforward and sees that Natori is already the great person she thinks she is, but doesn't realize it herself. Instead of trying to manipulate her into accepting herself, she directly asks why she feels the way she does and promises to help her.
It was mentioned by the comments above that their core philosophies seem to be active vs. passive interference. The protagonist is one who seeks to approach problems directly, reactionarily almost, while the villainness is the schemer who plays the long game and believes herself to be the outside force that reaps the benefits at the end. There is also the matter of image. Diana has no image, what you see is what you get. She can be direct, because she has nothing to lose beyond her own values. Lapis has created a persona for every person she interacts with and cannot overstep the boundaries she set for herself without letting the house of cards collapse. Her overarching plan is too big for her to show her true self unambiguously. Lapis holds more power and sway, but is more confined. Diana is a fish out of water on the back leg, but she is free.
Also, to finish off this uneccessary rant of mine, Diana has a prime advantage when it concerns Natori's heart: She was already favored by her. Natori sees Diana as her solace and someone she has grown fond of long before coming to this world. These two chapters had her react strongly with heart pounding and fierce flushing towards Diana's smile and attention. When she is with Lapis she sees her as an employer that makes her feel needed, with Diana she sees her idol and soulmate that makes her feel purified.
If looked at objectively this is far from a one-sided affair.
With Natori's penchant for standing around uselessly and getting attacked I fear her cover of having "precognition" becomes less and less believable if anyone were to scrutinize the scenarios she finds herself in. While not useful in combat per se, the idea that she would not predict a sneak attack or a certain turn of events makes her appear increasingly unreliable. Lapis at this point has not tried to rely on Natori's alleged abilities much at all either, mostly just accepting her other support qualities and wishing for her to self-actualize.
It would be fine just from a social bonding perspective as both Lapis and Diana like her regardless of her powers, but from a plot standpoint this should become an issue eventually. At the very least "fate" seems to keep the "plot" of the game mostly coherent even with Natori's meddling on the specifics. That way her long term knowledge of the plot will continue to be relevant. It would just be unfortunate if someone actually tried to rely on her imaginary powers in critical situations. And if the timeline keeps adjusting and railroading regardless of interference then it will be that much harder to change the ultimate outcome of the story.
last edited at May 19, 2023 4:00AM
Hiyama's utter lack of filter is truly a sight to behold. She couldn't care less about tropes or reading the room. Tomoe's mistake was to think she was dealing with a person when she was instead grappling a wrecking ball.
It is fascinating to see Kimura's change, not only of her target of affection, but also of how she approaches these confrontations. She finds it easier to converse with the boytoy now than to face Hiyama due to being too conscious of her. But at the same time she is far more honest with Hiyama as well. She is clearly starting to go along with her and predict her reactions in a more adaptive way than when she still pretended she was being bullied.
The morning walk chapter implies that she agreed to locking arms while going to school and that they go to school together regularly at the same time. She lets Hiyama close in and get more physical on purpose.
And the make-up chapter shows that she already predicated Hiyama's reaction to her wearing make-up and didn't misinterpret it this time. She learned her lesson from the change of hairstyle chapter about Hiyama's possessiveness and dislike of Kimura showing off her cuteness to others and actively wanted to avoid it. That's also why she reacted so mellowly to getting fussed over at the end.
I simply enjoy seeing a character who at best was resetting her expectations and perception every chapter shapeshift to suit the girl who she has true feelings for now. The contrast between her mostly being passive or self-depreciating when approaching the boytoy compared to her actively adapting to Hiyama is great.
A name by itself might no have story significance, but different people using different names for the same person usually does. Not always, but often. Also, yeah, if in real life someone was corrected on a pronunciation and did nothing about it, it would seem rude to me. I don't really see an issue there.
The author gave their reasoning. Any further speculation or issue from your side are you own. Do as you must.
Ok so I'm not reading the Japanese, but someone in the comments on page 9 said this:
ナタリー na-ta-rii vs ナトリ na-to-ri
Not the same pronunciation, the last two syllables are differentI don't know what it looks like in the raws, but if it's coming up in the translation it must be different enough.
Obviously they are not the exact same. But if you are unfamiliar with Japanese names, then it sounds awfully similar. I already mentioned the context of a Western fantasy setting being more favorable of Western names. No need to repeat myself further.
Lastly, sure, broadening one's horizon by looking at outside perspectives is nice, but when you put yourself in the position of broadening someone's horizon explicitly, unless you're literally their teacher, it comes off as condescending. It's one thing to display information from another perspective, it's another to tell someone explicitly that you're going to broaden their horizon with your perspective. There's a lot of assumptions there that depend on you knowing more than me and being more correct, which inevitably come off as condescending.
I used the word "perhaps" quite purposely to make it not an absolute cerrtainty, but you are just looking to be offended now and I have no patience for such things. Think of it what you will, this is too irrelevant to me to pursue further.
Obviously we're not going to agree on this, but I do think your analogies here are not particularly fair. A name is much more personal and important than a greeting. You really don't see any difference between saying a character's name correctly and how someone says good morning? Names are usually pretty important in many stories. And I've absolutely seen films where a person saying someone's name correctly is a part of the plot. Which doesn't imply anything about this manga, but it will just be a character detail, but I do feel like you're being dismissive too early.
People use nicknames, pet names, suffixes and other such things to alter how they address someone all the time. It personalizes interactions, but unless a name has story significance it is simply not an important matter.
Your entire conceit here is that it matters because it somehow shows a lack of interest or investment from Diana, as she doesn't care about Natori's corrections, but that just appears so basic that I cannot help but call it as I see it... overanalyses.
Not that I am a stranger to such myself.
Also, unrelated, but "I just tried to perhaps broaden your perspective" is incredibly condescending. You don't know me or my perspective from reading a couple of comments I've made here. Let's not go there please.
That is your opinion. I phrased it completely neutrally actually, in fact to avoid you feeling attacked.
Maybe such a defensive reaction shows a cetain dissonance between how we perceive things, but it is obvious to me that none of us can see the full picture of things at all times, especially when locked on a very particular detail like this. You may not have been aware the Natori and Natalie are pronounced nearly the same in Japanese. Or some outside input could have allowed you to change your perspective.
That is what broadening one's horizons is. It is unfortunate that you consider it a condescending concept.
Probably I am focusing on it a little too much, but if the translation is giving us this contrast then it must be an important contrast, especially since Natori herself has tried to correct Diana and others before and Lapis never needed correcting. It could just be a sign of the level of education between the two potential love interests, but I do think since it gets focus then it probably also represents something about the relationships, otherwise there wouldn't be a difference at all.
I mean, you're basically asking me to ignore a consistent story element, which is odd to me. Why would it be there if it wasn't important? It's like the difference between the suitor that gets roses and the suitor that gets sunflowers knowing they're the love interests favorite flowers. Chekov's love details.
One character saying "G'morning" while another says "Good morning" can tell you on a surface level that one is more casual than the other. In this scenario you are determining that a character using "G'morning" will lose a love triangle romance because they are not using the proper wording.
Sometimes little details are little details that exist to be little details. It was already mentioned above, but it seems the author simply wanted to show a difference in education and status with this. A fairly standard way of characterisation with no especially deeper meaning in regards to every other plot point, let alone the blossoming romance. You cannot compare flower language, a matter that is build on deeper meaning and metaphors, to a simple character trait.
Though I want to end this by saying that you are free to interpret whatever you want into any aspect of a story. That is how we process art and storytelling. So I'm not telling you to stop anything, I just tried to perhaps broaden your perspective. Especially because Natori has stopped correcting her already and just accepted it.
It appears to me that it matters more to you than the actual characters.
last edited at Mar 31, 2023 10:58AM
I said that this chapter would reveal what type of story this really is and in a sense it did so. By making things more ambiguous on purpose of course.
Perhaps the bi-harem has been avoided (for now), thank the stars. But the prince is giving strong mixed signals. Airheaded, yet cunning. He seems to care about Lapis as her being happy and more relaxed around Natori seemed to excite him. On the other hand he is overly prying and may have more unsavory reasons to go so far as to use analyzing magic without consent (I do not buy the familiar mania explanation).
I am not quite sure what to think of Diana. She is being portrayed as strongly hostile and aggressive, utterly possessive, which does not seem to fit her early characterization. I doubt she was quite like this in the original game's lore, threatening people with cuttlery on their first meeting and all. The plot mostly focuses on characters being different behind the screen than how they appeared in front of it, but this is rather drastic. I have no interest in going as far as to label characters "yandere", because it is nearly always a complete exaggeration, but Diana does show a modicum of mental imbalance, just as she did by realizing that attacking people with deadly weapons and dragons can actually hurt them only a couple of weeks ago.
Lapis is surprisingly the most straighforward. She has a divise plan that she can predict will make her an enemy to many, but she cares about people, especially Natori. She is acutely aware of her strong points and starting to act a little tsundere. Adorable.
I think the prince immediately getting Natori's name right while Diana still fails to makes Diana seem even less likely to be successful in a love triangle.
Your obsssesion with the name matter is honestly baffling. Is this perhaps supposed to be a running gag of yours?
In case it is not: Natori and Natalie are pronounced almost the same in Japanese. That is the entire joke. Natalie would be a more understandable name in a Western style fantasy world. If you want to go any deeper than that you can call it a nickname or a character quirk and be done with it.
This is the least important, relevant or significant part of their entire chemistry, so perhaps it would be foolhardy to hinge the entire relationship on it, wouldn't you agree?
last edited at Mar 31, 2023 3:05AM
(I’m even hoping for a “B-b-but, we’re both girls!” confession scene.)
As hilarious as that would be, I find it hard to believe at this point, considering, well, Hiyama confessed from chapter 1. So the only one capable of still confessing is Kimura. If she were to do this it would be impossible for Hiyama to give the desired cliche reaction, barring she received an unfortunate case of amnesia (which this manga would not be above doing admittedly).
Expected kabedon, got desperate hug. Of course she wouldn't be able to be that smooth...
Correct me if I am wrong, but has there not been a chapter where she casually kabedon'd Kimura? I distinctly remember it happening once, if not twice.
In comparison a hug is far more intimate and something that they have not been capable of before. A kabedon is a more hostile gesture in Shoujo manga too, mostly used by bullies to threaten or by male love interests to corner. A hug is a wholly positive gesture, which is what Kimura needed after hearing the badmouthing by the mob girls. Unintentionally or not, this felt like the optimal way to go about it.
last edited at Mar 28, 2023 9:51AM
Just realised the red bean rice was referencing flicking the bean
I have to put doubt on that. That's a connotation more commonly made in Western spheres perhaps, but red rice is traditionally associated with wedding ceremonies and the "first night" that follows after in a Japanese context. Some more obscure references also claim that the pure white rice turning red is an analogy to losing female virginity.
In short, Seiko is alluding to the fact that she knows Shamiko and Momo had sex and assumes they are a couple now that will get married for sure. Just as the canon will no doubt confirm eventually (assuming Ito-sensei will ever become healthy enough to finish it).