This idea of "staying shōjo" is what we found in Hanjuku Joshi, the story of the "immature women", it's the normal evolution of the class S tropes, now that women can more easily escape heterosexual marriage. Many class S stories had this idea too, of wanting to stay shōjo forever, but between the social context and the censorship, well, that's ended in suicide-type bad ending.

Wait, have you read Hanjuku Joshi? That's not what it says at all.

I dunno, the title of Hanjuku Joshi means “immature women”. That's also the critics of Hanashima at the beginning, saying that Yae and Chitose were immatures for loving each other. The story convey the message that it's fine to stay “immature” (loving each other).
(But it's possible that I over-interpret the story.)

This idea of “immature” is linked to the “shōjo”. As you said, homosexuality between girls is mainly considered as a phase in Japan, a sign of “immaturity”.
The identity of “shōjo” has many characteristics, and “being homosexual” is one of these.

That's why I consider this story as a continuation of class S, as an evolution if you prefer. And that evolution was foreshadowed by Yaneura no Nishojo.
You said that Morishima Akiko is bisexual. I said that "yuri absorbed the lesbian stuffs" (in the occidental meaning of “lesbian”). The modern Japenese homosexuality isn't only influenced by our western standards, but is also influenced by the past homosexuality in Japan, from the pre-Meiji period, and –for the lesbian– from the class S too.

So yeah. You can call that “subverting the class S”, for me it's simply a continuation, an evolution. As the class S system influenced modern lesbianism. It's not for nothing that Yoshiya is considered a “pioneer in Japanese lesbian literature”. Because you can't separate the two.

But Class S is blatantly saying that teen girls don't have real feelings or emotions for each other, and any romantic inclinations they have are false and temporary. It's an idealized insult writ large, based on a homophobic society finding a way to explain away girls finding each other attractive.

As OriginalGengar said, Nobuko Yoshiya was the most influential class S author with some of her works were autobiographical. Interestingly, she lived her whole life with her female lover, until her death at 77.
So yeah, that kind of feelings isn't real… or maybe not.

As I said, class S is profoundly interlinked with the idea of the “shōjo”, which is, as explained in the study I've linked before:

As indicated by several critics, such as John Treat (1993: 364), Tomoko Aoyama (2005: 53), and Sharalyn Orbaugh (2002: 458), the shōjo identity has a significant place in Japanese gender discourse, in that it appears to approach the notion of an asexual, kawaii being. Treat (1993) emphasizes that a distinction can be drawn between shōjo and women, precisely because the primary and unique signifier of shōjo identity depends on its representation in terms of a lack of sexual fecundity. Thus, since the concept of shōjo does not possess binary gender implications, it escapes complicity with any reaffirmation of the master social narrative of gender determination—e.g. the vaginal woman. In this regard, shōjo identity should be discussed as a specific form of cultural discourse, which presents the ideological possibility of escape from patriarchal heterosexual structures.

At the time of Nobuko Yoshiya, being a “shōjo” was a temporary situation in general, there were some exception, like Yoshiya, and the Modern Girls in general, and some actresses of Takarazuka. But in general it was temporary, limited to childhood and adolescence due to social contraints.
Today, it's more easy to stay shōjo while adult.

There is a thing to understand: that was the patriarchal society which isolated the girls and encouraged (at first, they quickly discouraged it afterward) the class S system. But the girls themselves reinvested it, like did Yoshiya, some Modern Girls continued the practice after the school too, and there were a significant amount of suicides, marking the fact that those girls really loved each other and didn't wanted to be married.
The situation is far more complex than what you say. With two faces; what the patriarchal system wanted (the "phase love") and what the girls actually did. What you say is simply neglecting what the girls/women did at that time just to conserve the idea of the patriarchal system, which as I said, quickly discouraged it afterward because they were losing control on it. The practice (and the stories) of class S became illegal by the government by 1937. (Takarazuka theater has a similar story, with a very patriarchal objective at first, but which quickly mutated in a more queer institution.)

This idea of "staying shōjo" is what we found in Hanjuku Joshi, the story of the "immature women", it's the normal evolution of the class S tropes, now that women can more easily escape heterosexual marriage. Many class S stories had this idea too, of wanting to stay shōjo forever, but between the social context and the censorship, well, that's ended in suicide-type bad ending.
But if you prefer a full-fledged class S and not things like Hanjuku Joshi, the story of the grandma at the end of the second season of Marimite shows that class S relationship aren't false at all, because she is still in love with her class S lover from school.

That's why in yuri, we have mainly girls (shōjo) and not women, rarely marriage, rarely "I'm a lesbian", next to no LGBT militantism or homophobia. Because yuri isn't about lesbian in the majority of case.

Wait, there's TONS of homophobia in yuri. Why do you think they're always keeping their relationships a secret? Or in some cases the girls getting separated due to being too close? It's the background radiation of the whole genre.

Well, maybe the “next to no homophobia” was too much, as yes, there is many yuri works where the girls keep there relationship secret, but is not "always" either. I don't think there is a dominant trait here, between the “secret”, the “open” or the “not specified” relationship.

Gotta laugh about the weird image of lesbians in the west though, with all this stuff about "ideology" and "militantism", though. Most lesbians here just go about their lives, just like straight people. What you're probably seeing is a class of people being a bit emboldened by the boot on their neck lifting a little bit. But in Japan, the boot's still there to a great degree, so you gotta be subtle.

It's more like there is different definitions of the word “lesbian” and different definitions of the word “yuri”, and the boundaries between those two words are blurred: I tend to think that the concept of “yuri” is larger and encompass the majority (totality?) of the concept “lesbian” (in Japenese context at least).

And yeah, I know that there is a lot of lesbians who simply don't care of any political/social agenda, that's precisely why I've said “I mean “lesbian” in the LGBT political and social ways like we have in the West.“. As I just said, the word “lesbian” has different definitions, form a simply sexual definition to a totally political definition (notably in the Western feminist context), and I'm under the impression that in most case, the general definition is a mixture of both sexual and political.

But why I reacted like this, it was because I'm sick of seeing the class S called things like “bullshit” or “yuri baiting” and compared to the idea of “lesbian until graduation” like in this topic, or even called “homophobic” on other websites.
The class S gives that kinds of impression because of the context where it was born (the patriarchal pre-war Japan) and by the fact it's profoundly intermingle with the idea of “shōjo”, which is mostly considered as a temporary state before adulthood. But today, adult can still be more or less “shōjo” thank to the advancement of the women rights in Japan. And thus the class S is today more open: the main couple in Hanjuku Joshi (I forgot the story of the secondary couple) or the whole idea behind Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter (especially the teachers couple) are heavily influenced by the class S tropes. And I don't think that those works are “yuri baiting”, “homophobic” or limited to the idea of “lesbian until graduation” (quite the contrary in fact).

It's not new: at the golden age of the class S, the novel Yaneura no Nishojo was similar. It's just that, at that time, the censorship made that kind of works more difficult to publish.

You need to forget it. Yumi and Sachiko are dear to each other, close as sisters, but not lovers. It’s a story about this relationship – close as sisters – that is the point of almost every relationship in the series. That is why they are “soeur”.

WHAT!! marimite is not yuri!!!??

Why are people suprised about that? It's class S yuri. That's literally Yuri Bait - The Genre.

I know this conversation is somewhat old.
But it's the contrary: yuri, in general, isn't about lesbian, and by this, I mean “lesbian” in the LGBT political and social ways like we have in the West.

But the yuri absorbed the lesbian stuffs, not the other way around. And thus Marimite is far more a “traditional yuri” than something like Morinaga's Girl Friends, which is pretty much lesbian.

If you heard the Japenese people behind the yuri, they say something like “yuri is about spiritual connection” or “something between friendship and love”.
In a more western way to say this, yuri is about homosocial bonds between “women” (well, mainly “shōjo”). The homosexuality we can find in the yuri is simply an extension of this homosociality.

That's why in yuri, we have mainly girls (shōjo) and not women, rarely marriage, rarely "I'm a lesbian", next to no LGBT militantism or homophobia. Because yuri isn't about lesbian in the majority of case.

Yuri is a mixture between the homosexual behavior during the pre-Meiji period, female romanticism in the prewar Japan (the “class S”), and more recently the Western-LGBT-lesbian ideology.

So yeah, “lesbian yuri” is a subgenre of yuri, like “class S yuri” is one another, or the recent “soft-yuri”. And personally, I'm glad that yuri isn't about lesbian-only, but is in fact very diverse. And “class S” isn't a bullshit, it was an odd thing born from three different things: the romanticism imported from the West, the patriarchal society who wanted to “preserve” the shōjo in order to have “good wives”, and an act of resistance of those shōjo against the patriarchy, so it's partly feminist and partly patriarchal, like the rest of the “shōjo culture” (Takarazuka, Yaoi…). It's a complex and interesting matter, not “bullshit”.

For those interested by the subject: here a quick read about how yuri is more complex and subtle than just “lesbian”.

Don't know much about the author and I'm very new to Yuri, from 'known' stuff I can only remember watching this, Ano Hana (but I dropd because the anime made me think the two girls touching each other naked in the opening would be together but the story is not about that ¬¬')

Welcome in the wonderful world of yuri!

Sidenote: If you're speaking of "Aoi Hana", in fact the story is about those two girls, it just that it's a very, very slow paced story. And anyway, the story in the anime is far from complete; it needs at least 2 or 3 seasons, but the 1st season didn't sell well enough, so no second season… TT

And is it just me or is the term yaoi offensive as fuck?
「…」
^Yeah, nevermind. I thought the whole no climax no meaning thing was about gay people in general but it's just about like, the plot structure of porn.

Well, the dōjinshi community tend to be self-deprecating, it's like the word “fujoshi” which mean “rotten girl”.
The term “yaoi” was used at first to describe any dōjinshi by the authors themselves during the 70s, they were mostly doing parody, so that's a good name; a parodic title for a parody.
It was latter coined to male-homosexual stuffs latter, around 1979.

Amusing enough, the term “yaoi” has many meanings, and the first used for male-homosexuality was a more romantic meaning than the usual “no climax, no point, no meaning” :

Ravuri member Maru Mikiko created a male homoerotic manga which she titled “Yaoi,” writing the term in kanji characters meaning “chasing the night.” — Boys Love Manga and Beyond

last edited at Dec 11, 2015 11:11AM

Honestly, in Renai idenshi XX, they used sperm bank for IVF, not science

IVF isn't science? Well, that's a new one! :D

So if I understand well, you don't want any kind of homoparental situation, but only homosexual reproduction, right?
Well, good luck, because that's true, there isn't that much yuri with homoparentality to begin with, but yuri with homosexual reproduction is rarity.

Oh, and I dunno why I have forgot about that one, because it's in my library and I really love this author, but the second story in Sweet Guilty Love Bites is about an homoparental situation too.
But it's a child of a previous relationship, so you'll pass too? ^^

last edited at Dec 11, 2015 10:42AM

Ah, I forgot about it, but Ebisu-san and Hotei-san have some kind of "family ending". The girl at the end is too sweet with her "I have three mommies" (and there is no love-triangle or threesome).

And I heard about Ohana Holoholo, but I didn't read it…

Yeeeeessss Ebisu-san and Hotei-san!!
One of my absolute favourites! It doesnt kinda have a family ending, it's so sweet ;u;
I prefer my manga in english, but for the absolute sake of owning it I'd totally buy it in fernch, if only it was more accessbile.. sigh...

Well, I don't have this problem as I'm French. :D
But it seems accessible outside France, even if the cost (shipping included) is nearly the double compared to France. :(

I mean an original yuri manga story with a science baby or ips cells aspect. That hasn't been made yet but I really hope in future.

Context-wise, it was already made, in Ren'ai Idenshi XX. Because it's a world of women only, so no choice.

The story isn't about a family at all, but the context is here, as every character of the manga is a science-baby with two mothers.

NanoFate is canon just check Vivid life xD

Totally, even if the author didn't say a thing, it's absolutely obvious every angles you look at.

last edited at Dec 11, 2015 5:41AM

Ah, I forgot about it, but Ebisu-san and Hotei-san have some kind of "family ending". The girl at the end is too sweet with her "I have three mommies" (and there is no love-triangle or threesome).

And I heard about Ohana Holoholo, but I didn't read it…

Ah right, NanoFate is actually canon now isn't it

Anime-wise, no. They aren't married from what I know, we don't see them kissing…
In the manga, I dunno. I really have to read it someday.

But even if the coupling isn't canon; they are living together, sleeping together too, and they are both the mothers of Vivio (Nanoha is the only official mother, Fate is the "second mama" if I remember correctly).

So even if the yuri goggles aren't my thing usually, for me it was pretty obvious that they are a family.

The first example which came in mind is Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.

It's mainly a magical girl serie as hinted by the title, but we have a yuri family with Nanoha x Fate with Vivio as their daughter, it's pretty cute: http://static.zerochan.net/Mahou.Shoujo.Lyrical.Nanoha.StrikerS.full.1221323.jpg

But in the anime, the family only begin at the 3rd season (I didn't read the manga), Vivio is adopted (no science baby), and the serie isn't focused on the family trope at all, there is only cute passages here and there and subtexts.
Oh, and the 4th season (the most focused on Vivio) is the worst by far.

yaoi tag

I guess the bara tag covers that.
I've been eyeing this on other sites, kinda interesting premise. Maybe I should take a look as it's been accepted through the RIGID AND VIOLENT QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS of dynasty.

I thought bara tags were just for really masculine men, didn't know that they were in the yaoi genre

Bara came first, stories aimed at gay men usually featuring large gay men with masculine features like in this.
Yaoi came later aimed at heterosexual men and women.

It depends.
The first gay stuffs began in the 50s ans 60s, but they were totally underground and private stuffs, limited to clubs or private circles. The first commercial gay stuffs (and manga) were in the magazine Barazoku, launched in 1971.
Well, more exactly, there were some commercial homoerotic stuffs before Barazoku, like the movie Bara no sōretsu in 1968 or the collection of photos Barakei in 1963.

While the first "yaoi" (or "tanbi" as called at that time) was the novels trilogy of Mari Mori (A Lover's Forest ; I Don't Go on Sundays ; The Bed of Dead Leaves), published from 1961 to 1962. And even the very first "shōnen'ai" manga from the Forty-Niners was In the Sunroom in 1970 by Keiko Takemiya.

So, I'd say they were both born at the same time.

In addition, in Japan they use "men's love" (ML), and not "bara". The bara is the symbol of the japanese gay community and is used for the movies (bara-eiga), but not for the manga. Only the westerners use "bara" to describe gay manga.
As usual the westerners misused the japanese terms, nothing new here, it's like "shōjo-ai" (pedophilia) or "shōnen'ai" (pedophilia OR the very first yaoi manga (during the 70s and 80s), which were as erotic/pornographic as the rest).

EDIT : and anyway, the first "shōnen'ai" from the Forty-Niners were largely read by both gays and lesbians, because even if they were tragic and unrealistic, they were good homosexual manga. The discontent from the gays (but not lesbians) began with the yaoi dōjinshi in the 1980 and 1990, especially with the "yaoi ronsō" (debate of the yaoi) between 1992-1996, were the gays began to become vocal against the yaoi stuffs.

last edited at Dec 9, 2015 5:37AM

At first I was afraid that it would be a Citrus-like, from the synopsis. But these two first episodes are pretty goods. And I like the way they use boys/men.
Can't wait for the next episodes. ^^

There's one thing I can't quite grasp about j dramas. Is it that the Japanese people and culture are so different or is it merely poor acting and directing?

I dunno for the dramas, but for the movies, it's a cultural thing.
The way they play is far more inspired by theater than our way. So for us it seems more "fake", unnatural and exaggerated.

I recently see an old yaoi movie (Summer Vacation 1999), and the actresses really played like they were on a theater stage, with totally unnatural dialogs. It demands some time to adapt and appreciate that sort of things, I guess.

Yes yes yes ! \o/

This story is a pure yuri.

The setting can be seen as "stupid", "unrealistic", "yaoi" or a "commentary about our own world", but I'd say it's mainly inspired by Takarazuka Theater, as hinted in the note of this page.
Takarazuka is a all-female revue, where the actresses are either musumeyaku (female role) or otokoyaku (male role).
When you enter in Takarazuka, you enter in a fantasy world with only "women". It's the same with Love DNA.

The otokoyaku (and thus the Adam in the manga) isn't male, but she is the incarnation of the ideal shōjo, who manage to be both the "ideal man" and the "ideal woman", the prince and the princess.
A shōjo isn't simply a "little woman", but she is more or less considered as a third gender by the japanese gender studies, distinct from male or female. There is a ton of things to say about "what is a shōjo exactly?", but I like this definition: "the shōjo is a female yet sexless being, with homosexual experience and heterosexual inexperience". That's the foundation of the yuri, especially the Class S thing of the prewar Japan, homosexuality between shōjo, and not women.

Takarazuka is one pillar of the shōjo (and thus yuri) culture/identity (the other pillar is Nobuko Yoshiya, the author of the first yuri (Class S) stories). You can find its influence everywhere in shōjo, yuri and even yaoi manga. From Princess Knight to Rose of Versailles, Utena, Sailor Moon, Oniisama e…, Kaze to Ki no Uta or Ouran High School Host Club.
Love DNA is simply a continuation of this tradition. And it's one of the more "genderfuck" yuri out there, far behind Simoun, but still. At first I was lost by Simoun too; for me the heroines in this story weren't women, or even girls, they were children, sexless, and thus speaking of "yuri" for Simoun was absurd in my eyes. But now, after reading studies about shōjo/yuri, I understand that Simoun is the best example of what yuri is. Love DNA takes another route than Simoun, but is similar in many ways.

If you're interested by the otokoyaku, the shōjo et cætera, you can easily find information about it in virtually all scientific studies of the shōjo/yuri manga, and a little in yaoi manga (where the bishōnen archetype is inspired by the otokoyaku too), many of them are freely readable on the internet.
But this one is a good start, I think : https://webspace.yale.edu/anth254/restricted/AE_1992_19-3_Robertson.pdf

as I worry that the lead character's gender may cause it to get cancelled.

The story is complete with 5 volumes in Japan.

i´m also curious if somebody can also advice me some "Gender Bender" Yuris like "Kashimashi: Girl meets Girl " or maybe Kämpfer (it was good but the end was not so good^^)

For "gender bender with yuri", I have found a few:

The best I have read is Boku wa Mari no Naka, pretty psychological. The romance takes time to shows up.
More humorous, you have Boku Girl, it's a love-triangle between a boy-turned-girl (main character), a girl, and a boy.
I guess you also have Yuri na Watashi to Akuma na Kanojo(?), which feature a girl (main character), a girly-boy-or-a-boyish-girl?-well-whatever, and a secondary girl.

But none of them are complete yet.

I haven't seen scans of it either, but I did order a physical copy of the book, so it's possible that we (Lililicious) will decide to scanlate it, for its historical significance if nothing else.

Wow! It would be really cool if you take the time to translate it. ♥

What's up with this old school drama? First Onii-sama E, now this gahd everyone be dying

Yuri manga from 70s and 80s usually have a bad ending, with death or separation. We had to wait 90s, especially Sailor Moon (1992) to have a positive depiction of Yuri.

I don't know but I pretty sure this was the very first yuri manga

the mangaka's first? and if that is true, no matter how sad this story was, it's still a really nice piece of work.

Shiroi is usually considered as the "first yuri", as it was written in 1971. But technically it's Shīkuretto rabu, dated from 1970. A perfect love-triangle between two girls and one boy. As Shiroi it's a bad ending as the three ends up alone after some suicide attempt and on.

But Shīkuretto rabu was forgotten by history and everyone remember Shiroi as the "first yuri". I even didn't find any scan of Shīkuretto.
If someone finds it, I'm very interested by it BTW!

See here for more information about the first yuri (and yuri in general).

As for Non, she has a "canon yuri ending" it seems.
I just finished reading the French edition of the manga, and that's what I found on the back-cover : http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1441576231.jpg

Non found a girlfriend at college, she looks like as a mix of Shion and Kana.
BTW in the text bottom, they say that Shion and Kana are married (oversea?) after the approval of the father of Kana.
The twincest are still together.
Only Asami (and Kadoyama, but who care about him?) ends alone.

After reading this a couple more times, I concluded that the Ayumu character is really badly written. He doesn't make sense.

He was conflicted, I think.
Part of him wanted to being a man again, but was more and more convinced that wasn't possible any more. And thus he became resigned to being a woman, and started to appreciate some things, like his new girls friends or female fashion. But resignation isn't acceptance, so he was still resisting his fate.
Inside that, you mix a little self-destructive behaviour which is usual when you're that conflicted. (especially when he tried to ruin everything with Mori)

Any ending (staying a woman or rebecomming a man) would be bitter-sweet for him. In both cases he would lose and gain some things.

In the contrary, I think its a more "realistic"/sensible ending compared to what you usually have with that kind of scenario, where the character totally embrace his/her new life or didn't change at all.

The ending can be frustrating in some ways, because the couple seems to be more unstable than before. But in the other hand, both characters changed quite a lot. That what is important in my eyes, and it's probably a good thing in the long run for them, both as individual and couple.

My main regret is that they didn't come out as a gay couple.

last edited at Aug 27, 2015 1:26PM

They just stopped before last chapter. Dammmmmn.

Last chapter of the first volume. There is a second volume.
So, we're far from the end of the story. :(

Even if it's not the greatest romance/gender bender out there, the story is still cute, and I would love to see its ending one day.

last edited at Aug 24, 2015 3:34AM

Try reading Boku Girl . It's about a boy who looks like a girl and a God switches his gender as a prank and enjoys the comedy and romance situations that follow .

Thanks, but I already read Boku Girl, it's very funny.

I've read a ton of gender bender, from simple cross-dressing to intersex. But that's the first manga I found about how a couple handles a sudden change of sex, and that what make it unique, refreshing and interesting. It feels very different from when the MC start single, the development of the story isn't the same.

I really hope that it's not some "love overcomes orientation" thing since I feel that's just a slap in the face by erasing a defining part of Mori. Only way I see a satisfying end is if Ayumu turns back to a male or still identifies as male while still in a female body.

Wait, so if Mori loves "Ayumu with female body but who identifies as a male", then that makes Mori still completely gay? Is that really how it works?

In the ideal world, yes, absolutely.
If at the end of the story Ayumu is female but still identify himself as a boy, then he is a FtM transgender, and thus identified as a "man". Whether he choose to do some hormonal therapy/surgery or not. (But I don't see that end coming.)

But in the real world, it really depends on the individuals; a ton of people aren't able to make abstraction of the sex. It depends if Mori is that kind of person or not.