But why exactly does she hate herself, and which "self" is it that she hates?
There's what Yuu calls in Chapter 10 "your weak side and your perfect side," which together are what Touko says Yuu accepts: "all of me."

But we actually have:
1) "original Touko": shy, hiding behind her sister.
2) "perfect Touko," which she thought was an imitation of Mio Mk.2, but now has learned is not, at least not entirely.
3) "real Touko": the both sides that Yuu accepts

So does she hate herself for:
"Really" being original Touko all along but faking being Mio Mk.2
Failing to live up to being Mio Mk. 2 (and she thinks putting on the play will fix that)
"Really" being empty inside, like the girl in the play and not actually having an identity at all.
None, all, or some of the above?

She's clearly got some combo of survivor's guilt (if the rock-paper-scissors game had come out differently, she would have been the one killed) and imposter syndrome (where she feels like a fake no matter what she achieves). But it's not so clear what exactly it would take to redress that.

I think the root of Touko's self-hatred is not so much because of her doing, but because of her being. So it is not because of something she does wrong that she comes to resent herself, but because she resents her own being that she finds a flaw in everything she does.

Her original self-hatred kinda starts from a basic low self-esteem. Remember what she said in chapter 5, that she was unsatisfied with who she used to be: the weak & shy girl that didn't stand out at all whatsoever compares to her sister. Then of course when her sister died, we got the relatives telling her (as an innocent kid with an already low self-esteem) to "be like your sister," which further worsens her perception of her own identity. & how I see it, she doesn't exactly love her perfect self, either, since that identity for her is not her own, which is why she comes to resent expectations and people falling for her ideal self. Being like her sister makes her feel safe and worth something since like she said in chap 10: everyone, including her, likes her sister after all. However, I think Touko knows full well that being her ideal sister is only her way of coping with how much she hates her original identity, but it is still not her own identity. I've read someone's post on /u/ saying how she probably thought she was doing a lousy job at being her sister even before she learned the truth about her from Tomoyuki. So to answer your question (kinda), I think that Touko kinda hates all of her being and this includes all the things you listed. Her failing to be her sister, her having no real identity (in her POV), her sister identity is not her own, & the fact she can't escape from her original identity. All these things are the flaws she finds in her existence.

Although, I'd say that there is one part of her being that she doesn't hate: her love for Yuu. Sounds a bit cheesy, but that's basically what comes across in this conversation in ch 24.

So I guess you can say that Touko's problem is that she wants her existence to worth something (not just to others, but especially to herself), but is having a hard time finding any worth in it. This is the best I can get at trying to rationalize self-hatred, I guess. I'm no psychologist, so uh, take it with a grain of salt.

last edited at Oct 1, 2017 3:01PM

...Actually, why IS Touko putting herself through all this if she knows it's not good for her?

Because she hates herself. Self-hatred means that she doesn't care for her own emotional & mental well-being. She also sees herself as inadequate, so only living as someone else can make her feel a bit more worthy as a person, which is why she can't see herself stopping being Mio.

So it was a mistranslation, then?

No, not really. The Japanese phrasing might be a bit clearer, but there's nothing wrong with the TL. I think most understood that Sayaka meant her interfering with Yuu's plan would be a low move. The context of the entire chapter should be enough to help readers come to that reading.

I, uh...didn't watch Madoka. I know what happens and I'm just not really motivated to watch based on that.

Have a look at this image & see if you wanna try out the show.

I would scream if they keep these two assholes alive. yeah Jean deserves happiness!! I wonder what the angels and demons are gonna do, I hope we get Angel/demon hybrids since charioce is an asshole and it would be funny if there is more than one Bahamut, i want charioce to despair that everything he did was for nothing

Same. Jean should settle with one of the female angel, specifically Sofiel (I was shipping them the entire season), to find true happiness.

Is Made In Abyss really rough to watch? I'm kind of a wimp, horror-wise, but the visuals I've seen in screenshots are stunning so I'm tempted.

I'm not a horror fan either, actually. I would say that it is not exactly scary as it is disturbing since the show keeps getting darker & heavier as it goes (think Madoka, but more slow-burn in how disturbing it gets). Keep in mind that all these disturbing things happen to children, so if you think that that's too much, maybe not? I think it's worth the shot though.

last edited at Sep 30, 2017 9:40PM

if they do another season hopefully charioce is being killed by his own people, since bahamut didnt die, then nina kills herself. I'm glad he failed to end bahamut. Hopefully azazel and jean, favaro team up and make their own group to fight bahamut.

Watch them kill the latter group of good characters while keeping those two alive somehow.

VG was such a disappointment. It started out so strong, too. Then every new ep in the second cour just kept getting worser than the one before it thanks to those two. Poor Jean though, she keeps losing precious people in her life every season.

Speaking of which, there is this line about Touko imagining smelling incense that goes over my head. Is there a particular cultural/symbolic imagery that I'm missing? There's something about burning incense for the dead that comes to mind, but not sure about this.

Yeah, basically. Incense burning is something we do for the dead in some Asian countries, so it is associated with death. The incense is used call back to Mio's death as well as the symbolic death of Touko's own identity when she was a kid as shown in ch 10, while also evoke the imminent danger of her current life heading down the same road.

It enhances the trope similarity even more, heh! I'll just have to apply my own advice and ignore the complaints about it being cheap/bad/unnecessary or whatever.

Just like what you like, really. It's hard to give 0 shits about others' opinions, but it's better to try not getting triggered by them.

As long as we’re mentioning imagery that may or may not be significant, with this latest chapter I keep thinking of the Yuu-to-Sayaka baton relay in Chap. 14. But this feels like it goes the other way—Sayaka in some way passing something (I can’t quite say what, exactly) on to Yuu.

Well, Yuu kinda passes her conviction to help Touko onto Sayaka. & as for Sayaka to Yuu, her confidence in her love for Touko might help Yuu come closer to openly admitting her own feelings.

last edited at Sep 30, 2017 5:08PM

Made in Abyss finale. Wow. My god, I was almost reminded of how I felt when I first read Berserk's Eclipse arc. Was prepared for dark twists & child torture pornz in this series, but damn, seeing child experimentation & watching them trying to kill Mitty to free her from suffering kinda hit really hard. Didn't really cry, but I could feel my heart breaking.

While it was obvious that it would end on "& their journey continues... now go read the fucking manga," I still think that having the sequence showing the balloon message's journey going all the way back up to the overworld again was a really neat way of tying together their journey so far. & while there were mostly just expositions this season, how it handles character interactions, foreshadowings, & world-buildings was impressive. Then ofc, the amazing production value with them stunning BG visuals & great OST was to die for. I really hope that ending means that there will be a second season. If not, I'll gladly go read the manga. Best non-comedic show this season, hands down.

having a hard time watching anime spoiled myself on rage of bahamut .....only thing i got to say is Charioce sucks. :(

Him & his melodramatic romance with Nina ruined the show. His character & genocide acts are not justified just because "oh, it actually turns out he wanted to destroy the Bahamut even at the risk of his life all along." & the fact that the romance that supposed to be the thing that "changed" him is a horribly written mess doesn't make it any better. Him staying alive with minimal consequences & getting a happy ending with Nina is a joke. The entire scene of them empowering each other thanks to the power of bullshit love & destroyed Bahamut was a joke.

It's a shame cuz the finale would've actually been pretty good if it weren't because of that. The production quality was top-notch & the rest of the cast received some decent resolutions even if they were rather poorly handled throughout the show. Although Kaisar's death is infuriating when Cheerio managed to stay alive somehow.

last edited at Sep 30, 2017 12:26PM

Even so, while there has been death and 'future less train' imagery, I don't see Touko as having that much of a desire to die or a lack of will to live.

I am worried about her possibly feeling trapped, because no one supports her twisted ideal now and trapped animals/people tend to be the most desperate. But she is contemplating this turn of events seriously. That could mean she will imagine what it is like to play this new role and maybe she'll find it's not as impossible or undesirable as she feels it is. A trial run potentially.

Back in ch 23, I was thinking the same, that the suicide imageries are more just narrative reminder of the weight of Touko's problem and are more symbolic in nature than actually depicting her starting to harbor suicidal thoughts. But my opinion is kinda shifting with this chapter due to the event that happened in it as well as that ominous last page with yet another suicide imagery. Recall her current situation: the perfect image she has of her sister turns out to be her own projection and not a reality (from her POV), her life goal of living as her sister is losing meaning, her future is unsure, & she doesn't even know who she is as a person. & remember that all these things hit her almost all at once. For someone who has been living and believing in her way of life for so long & who is also drowned in self-hatred, change is a scary thing, leaving her comfort zone is a scary thing. Even when her little "utopia" is falling apart, she still can't really see the possibilities beyond it (& this is why she opposes the changed script so much). I think she is indeed trapped--trapped in her own unhealthy worldview. & now that the two supports she had left in her ideal are turning against her (again, from her POV), I think Touko is at the point of "what's left?" The final page with her just looking down from the building then leaving with a grim face is very evocative of a suicide consideration, IMO. In ch 23, she was able to at least turn to Yuu to help comfort her and clear her from dark thoughts, but here, she's turning to no one.

With how unstable she currently is, I don't think Touko can come to a more optimistic conclusion on her own & even worse, she's too stubborn to really listen to anyone. Logic is not gonna penetrate her head, either. There has to be a big catalyst of some sort that will knock some senses into her so that she can at least come to be more open about slowly leaving behind the life of her sister & applying the play's ending to start her own life again. What it is, I'm not sure. I was speculating about the possibility of some confrontation between her and Yuu that will lead to Yuu breaking down for real for the first time and that will shake her somehow (since part of her development is that she is slowly becoming more considerate of Yuu), but I dunno, just gonna sit back & see how things will turn out.

For Sayaka, I'm very happy I was wrong about her keeping the status quo and going along with what Touko wants. The manner in which she acts is very noble too, admitting she was afraid, she didn't act when she could have, and "who am I to interfere?" I don't see any love rivalry going on with her confession; it's the answer to why she agreed to use the new script and an acknowledgement that Yuu is motivated by the same reason.

Yeh, I think for Sayaka and Yuu, "love allies" is probably a more appropriate term to describe their relationships right now. A friend and I were talking about how the irony in this chapter is that the supposed "love rival" becomes the ally while the one who actually poses a real threat to the relationship is the love interest herself lol

Yuu is the best. No more needs be said.

Simply an angel.

Seriously though, if Bloom into You turns into a tragedy, I am going to cry.

If this series doesn't get a good anime adaptation, I am going to cry.

I'd be surprise they go towards the suicide route, but I believe there'll be a lot of inner turmoil for Touko, on how she will live her life afterwards. I'm loving it

There have been quite a few suicide imageries popping up here and there, in ch 23 especially & that last scene with Touko looking down the building this chapter. I'm not exactly sure if it'll be explicitly addressed (as in we will see Touko actually attempting suicide) or will it be kept implicit and subtle as it has been. Like Scarlet said, suicide is a delicate subject so it has to be handled with care. I prefer the implicit approach, but if it turns out to be explicit, I'll trust Nakatani to deliver as well as she has been building up this internal conflict in Touko.

a discussion with Gudetamago

Welp, I left you hanging, didn't I. Sorry, school started again, so I can't find the time to write blogpost responses lol

I'm glad, I'm not on this website since long ago, but hating on a story each time melodrama appears looks like a trope.

Melodrama is often shunned almost everywhere on the internet, not just here on Dynasty.

last edited at Sep 29, 2017 5:43PM

I am massively frustrated at how modern internet has perverted the classic literary terms. "Drama" is what this manga is all about -- the best kind of drama in fact, the believable, human, character-driven one. Please don't say that this manga has "no drama" when you, in fact, mean "melodrama" and "poorly written and unnecessary complications".

Eeeyy. I'm not really as bothered by people using drama to denote melodrama as much since I know what they mean (it's kinda like the deal with font & typeface in the graphic design world), but yeah, I agree that YagaKimi is indeed drama & the best kind at that.

Even if the thought enters her silly young head, she has two very committed women in her life who would keep her from it. As I said earlier, the girl is lucky AF.

She is indeed one lucky gal. I want a Yuu to care for me too.

last edited at Sep 29, 2017 3:33AM

I almost feel a bit silly saying this, maybe a bit biased too, but I believe this is factually a literary masterpiece, especially for what manga can usually accomplish.

Silly Mizu, we all know that the only literary masterpiece there is in the yuri genre is the Yuri Mekuru series.

Humble angel Yuu

Yes.

This chapter effectively clears the decks for a big finale (the performance of the play and Touko's response to it), but I almost wish there had been some plot twist or emotional puzzle for us to chew over for a month while we're waiting to find out what happens next.

Well, there's one thing that's been on my mind: the possibility of Touko's suicide. I kinda doubt this is the route the story is taking, but damn, her emotional & mental state right now is so unstable, if you just consider her character alone without the whole picture of the story, she honestly is someone who is at the brink of doing it.

Now did Yuu take her declaration of love as love as a friend or in a romantic way is my question?

Since Yuu brought up the question of "Is it that kind of like?" before in chap 14 & their entire conversation this chapter has been alluding back to that conversation, I think they both understood the kind of love Sayaka was talking about.

I dunno why we are suddenly putting stuff in spoilers for a released chapter..

Me neither, but if everyone wants to make this a thing, why not, I guess?

last edited at Sep 28, 2017 11:52AM

The triangle has turned on its head

Huh, Yuu mentioned Sayaka said she wondered how would it be if Touko stopped acting like her sister, when did Sayaka say that? In chapter 14 it was Yuu who wondered that and Sayaka was the one who replied with "I don't think that's Touko's goal"

It's a slight TL mistake. I checked the raw & what Yuu said was "Mae ni hanashitajanai desu ka" which has no subject, so it's more accurate to TL it to "We talked about this before, didn't we?" based on the context of ch 14.

^ You just put == at the beginning and end of whatever sentence or paragraph that you're spoiling.
Sayaka definitely hasn't given up. Her asking Yuu & then declaring her love for Touko is her answer to Yuu's similar question in ch 14. She's confirming her motivation in helping Yuu with the play is because she loves Touko while also acknowledging the fact that Yuu's motivation also spawns from her love for Touko. So in a way, it's her declaring that they are love rivals, or more like love allies (?) at this point since they're both trying to help her rather than competing for her affection.

TL is out: http://www.mediafire.com/file/xrg5z1119f5i0a7/%5B4s%5D_Yagate_Kimi_ni_Naru_-_26.zip

Well, we finally have some interesting resolutions to Sayaka and Yuu's interactions in ch 14. Expected a bit more tension between the two, but what I had hoped about them working together has come true (yay) & in the final scene, Sayaka implicitly acknowledged that they are love rivals, unlike here. Now that Touko has lost both of her supports in her ideal, all tensions are now piled on her. She's a time bomb at this point. 2 more chapters until volume release and I'm not entirely sure how the rest of the volume will play out. Will there be some catalyst prior to the play that can trigger a change in Touko's perception of her current situation? Right now, this girl is too drowned in her own confusion & angst to see any way out of it. Just having her doing the play alone probably wouldn't be enough to help opening her eyes at this point.

last edited at Sep 28, 2017 12:56AM

Months ago, I said this:

So for S2, I want to see it ends with Kou public proposes Rin, they get married for realz, science babies are born, & Aoba is their godmother. I won't have it any other way ( ಠ_ಠ)

& while it did not happen exactly, we still kinda got a Kou x Rin public proposal in a way & even with lewd handholding to top it off at that in the finale.

Now I'll be patiently waiting for S3. S2 was a delight.

Raw is out: https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5343588549

Sadly, too busy to read it right now ; ;

https://twitter.com/yagakimi/status/911803737584295936

Well guys, guess who's wearing their strap to school?

Well first thing I remembered and looked for was if the hair was covering their eyes and it does not. Then after re-watching the video, I looked at the comparison again (as this and trailer is only things I saw). As I said, the look is more modern, but they still try to give their faces more details and features instead of just making them all identical bishes (I know it's not huge, but when you compare their shapes to originals, they don't really have that much distinguish either, but they still try to make everyone look a but different.) As I mentioned, hair doesn't cover their eyes and their hair-style seems realistic and not over-the-top or anything like that. In fact, they have the exact same hair-cuts as the previous one, just more polished because of modern style. I mean, the old school way of drawing everything by hand definitely had it's charm and had more details, especially in hair, but I can't say new anime didn't try to adopt it. Also as was mentioned in the video, the old designs, didn't focus on it, but guys still were pretty handsome, again the same thing I see here. Maybe a bit more obvious, but I can tell they tried to not make them too pretty and give them more of a personality. My point was, sure, it looks prettier, but at least to me it looks like they are actually trying, so dismissing entire show, because characters are too bish looking sounds a bit disrespectful to creators. At least it seems like they try to hit all the good notes the old adaptation did.

I never dismiss the entire show for the designs though, I just dismiss the designs. I'm definitely gonna watch it & judge it for how good it is on its own, but I still think that the new designs don't fit the tone of the story the same way the old designs did (assuming that they are still trying to keep the same tone. I sure hope there will still be classical music playing in the BG while giant spaceships shoot each other apart). Hair not covering eyes isn't the only thing that makes realistic hair though. The huge chunks of spiky hair just screams anime. I would have been ok if they had gone for even something like the YOI's hair rendering style: finer hair strands to actually resemble realistic hair. & replacing curlies with spiky hair doesn't speak well of keeping the same hairstyle, at least for me. About the personalities of the designs, this one is also something that bothers me. Look at the two Yang Wenli & tell me which character design evokes the image of a 30 year-old super laid back dude who loves tea time more than his job? Maybe he'll look less serious in the actual show than the trailer/poster, but for now, I'm a bit iffy about the personality that is being projected by this new design.

Now, I don't think the new designs are utter garbage, they just don't live up to my image of LOGH, I guess.

last edited at Sep 22, 2017 6:54PM

I don't see why they can't keep the original designs though. These new ones just lack that really formal & dignified look of the original designs. & people can say what they want about the old designs being the old school equivalent of the modern bishie style, one can't deny that the old designs follow a way more realistic aesthetic, which captures the serious tone of the show. These new ones are just... too anime.

Them looking more bish is not really a problem. The new designs looks more modern but they still seem to keep to the old aesthetics. If you are interested, here is a great video on that exact issue and how to do it poorly.

I'm confused, so are you saying that you think that the new designs actually stay true to the old aestethic, just a bit more modern? Based on that vid, which I've watched a while back already, the new designs go against some of the things that make the original LOGH designs good: realistic hair & non-anime face.

last edited at Sep 21, 2017 9:29PM

This is wrong

Oh wow. The character designs look like they're straight out of a bishie anime lol

That's Legend of Galactic Heroes, one of the greatest sci-fi series of all time, you cretins.

We don't even know if this remake is gonna be good or not, but even if it turns out to be good, that doesn't change the fact that the character designs are drastically different from the original designs. & now it almost resembles a fujo anime lol

LOGH then vs now

last edited at Sep 21, 2017 6:24PM

Even though it's lazy, I think random appearing drama can be good for a story if done correctly and not repeated, probably.

Otherwise, I kind of agree with everything you've written. Perhaps I'm more a sucker for melodramatic stuff, so that's why I don't mind some stuff that seems unbearable for others. What I'd argue with would be, even if what the character do is really, really stupid, as long as it is in accordance with what we've seen of them so far, I don't think it's bad for the story. Stupid and toxic character aren't bad characters as long as they stay.. in characters. I guess it doesn't help to care for them though; I do in this particular case, the flashback helped me feel sorry for both girls (I was already feeling sorry for Takeda and the blonde guy doesn't need pity).

You're arguing more on the grounds of tolerance level. it’s totally fine if you can tolerate random drama & annoying characters. It's infuriating for me to watch characters being bad/stupid for the sake of being bad/stupid in drama, so consistent character writing in this case doesn't help much. But at the end of the day, we can agree that random drama & characters being stupid/toxic for the sake of being stupid/toxic are lazy writing. Lazy writing can be tolerable, but I wouldn’t call it good by any means.

Honestly, I don’t even consider all dumb/asshole characters badly-written characters either. While I do get annoyed at them, it really all comes down to how they are handled whether I consider them bad or not. Oyasumi Punpun, for example, was completely filled with fucked up characters & I still think they were incredibly well-written and compelling. & yes, consistent character writing plays a part in it, but it was ultimately because of how fleshed out & sympathetic these characters all felt in the end. Their emotional states, the stories behind their emotional struggles, their desires for change, their struggles to change, etc., each character has unique struggles of their own & they were all so clearly articulated that none of the main characters felt like walking archetypes or one-dimensional assholes. They were just pitiful human beings with their own struggles, insecurities, & emotional needs. Rounded, complex, & sympathetic asshole can be just as good of a character as a highly likeable & relatable one. This applies to nice characters, too, really. One-dimensionally nice characters (Takeda) can be likeable characters, but they’re not exactly well-written characters.

I guess the limit is blurred though. We don't know everything of a character, so what is and what isn't in character. And at which point a decision/reaction is too extreme to be believable? I guess that determine what a good drama would be for one or another.

The point of storytelling is to present the characters so that their motivations and reasons for their actions/behaviors are clear to the audience, or at least clear enough that you can understand them even if you don't like them, like "oh yeah, I can totally imagine myself doing that if I were going through the same" or "I have seen many who act this way because of similar situations." Story becomes unbelievable at the point where you start to question "are characters this stupid/evil actually exist?" or "Do situations this stupid actually happen in real life?" If you have to pull the "it's not common, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen" or the "there might be terrible people like this out there... somewhere" card to try and defend the story, it's a pretty good indication that the story is pretty unbelievable. But yeah, this can be rather subjective. If we’re just gonna talk about subjective views on what makes a good drama, then we’re going nowhere since there’s no point arguing over tastes, really. These are some of the things we can agree on about NTR: It’s a melodrama that over-exaggerates everything, characters don’t feel human and are overly dumb/toxic, the drama is at least somewhat self-contained, it tries to give backstories to its characters to explain their motivations. Now, you can look at these & think it’s good, while I can look at the same & think it’s bad. To each their own.

Edit : Thanks for the recommendations, Bloom into you seems like a very interesting read. It misses some angsty elements for my tastes but the way it's done (ch4 as of now) is really nice. This is starting to sound like a blog post, apologies.

No prob. BiY is drama. Not the kind people would expect when they think of drama though. It's more slow-burn & subtle, but still intense nevertheless. & don't worry about making blog posts here, I'm guilty of it a lot of the time myself. Like this one.

last edited at Sep 21, 2017 5:17PM

This is wrong

Oh wow. The character designs look like they're straight out of a bishie anime lol