Yes, the gag becomes obvious when you get to the end of the "repeat" page - Matsuri repeated her dramatic entrance routine until she got the response she wanted. (Sayaka's expression changes too; ideally some of the background characters would have moved & maybe more heads turning their way with the repeat, but I can understand the temptation to economize... ).

Sayaka told Matsuri that it's not ok to enter a class without permission. Matsuri left,then came back after class ,probably asked permission and told her she needed to talk

That's hilarious but so subtle that it completely flew over my head. My bad.

If you want really subtle, I'm now wondering if re-using the background with the students in the same position was a meta-joke about the Academy student's devotion to routine.

Also, something that has been bugging me since I saw the raws was why there are two versions of the first page?

Actually they're different, Matsuri came in when class started than left & came back after class ended. Look at the clock & schedule on the blackboard between the two page.

Yes, the gag becomes obvious when you get to the end of the "repeat" page - Matsuri repeated her dramatic entrance routine until she got the response she wanted. (Sayaka's expression changes too; ideally some of the background characters would have moved & maybe more heads turning their way with the repeat, but I can understand the temptation to economize... ).

I actually think it is more likely than not that Yuzu/Mei will eventually have sex in Citrus+... but have all those clamoring for that considered that it almost certainly won't be what they are hoping for?

It is highly unlikely to be explicit, and there is a very good chance it won't even happen "on screen", it might be a milestone, but the actual mechanics aren't relevant at all - Y&M's sexual desire/chemistry is already long-established. Citrus's infamous "sexy" energy has always been related to misdirection (including the covers!) and misunderstanding - the genuine moments have always been soft and touching - so pillow talk would be the order of the day, not rubbing naked body parts together.

Also, although I'm not coming at this from a waiting-for-sex angle, has anyone "done the math" on the timeline: we are only around 5 weeks in at 1 July. Spring/April - high school graduation and likely date for the wedding is seeming a very long way off. Are we looking at Saburouta's long term job-security plan?

And now I know you're just messing up with me.
Homura is and always will be the best character in anime history ( don't change my mind) and madoka was Aoi Yuki's one of her best voice works. ( Don't change my mind about that either)
I think you just like to be edgy or really you're just an idiot with an opinion about everything ( you wanna know more about Nene? The most insignificant character in citrus?? really???)

Just remember that you are dealing with someone who thinks "Matsuri is the most mature character in the series" https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/posts/637415 , and what sort of person that would be.

Then it all makes sense (and doesn't seem worth arguing about).

last edited at Nov 23, 2020 4:23AM

OK, Erogequeen, we get it—your readings are always right because of your superior understanding of Japanese language and your deep insight into the nuances of Japanese culture, and your freedom from the blinders that prevent we benighted Westerners from grasping the true significance of what we’re looking at.

I understand why condescension must be so unavoidable when redressing the ignorance of others,

Personally I'm looking forward to the reasoning as to how their cultural knowledge and familiarity with the plot is superior to Saburouta's when things don't go the way they want.

So that simple question stands - are you criticizing Citrus+ as the story it is, or for failing to be the different story you wish Saburouta had written instead?

Both. (This is my opinion—my “subjective reaction,” if you will, so of course others will disagree):

• Mei used to be an interesting, complex, and forceful character.

• Now she is (with some rare exceptions) a boring cringing ninny.

I am criticizing Citrus+ for featuring Mei as a boring cringing ninny.

I wish Saburouta had written a different story in which Mei had remained an interesting, complex, and forceful character.

I mean, yeah if you are saying that Mei's non-entity status is purely a subjective impression (as opposed to just the reaction to it being subjective), there isn't much I can say. You feel what you feel.

Others have outlined specific story events that give them a different impression, I don't need to repeat that. I will note that I think what I was saying in the shift in writing style might have contributed to such an impression - both the time line effect diluting the action (18 chapters/only 5 weeks), and the change in dramatic focus reducing the emphasis on the actions that Mei does make (compounded by Mei becoming more well-adjusted, reducing her intrinsic drama intensity).

I can't see how all of that could be changed without being a fundamentally different story... hence my comments along that line.

circamore, you do so much projecting and speculating about my motivations that there’s really no point in me trying to clarify each of your individual misapprehensions one by one. (Your juvenile canard that I think “there is only one right way to tell a story” most of all.)

I think I’m a pretty clear writer, and I’ve already said what I have to say here.

I admit that presenting guessed positions is not "option A" for constructive engagement. It is a fallback when you suspect you have missed the other party's point, and are trying to elicit clarification, by presenting options for what you think was being communicated. Because of the asynchronous nature of forum posting I also sometimes (often? usually?) get ahead of myself and "save time" by incorporating counter points (and snark) along with the guessed positions. It is a bad habit, but at least that way I get some sort of satisfaction/mental stimulation out of it (maybe on some level I've given up on getting an actual response).

tbh I'm still not sure whether you feel Mei's actions are internally consistent or not. My best guess at this time is that your dissatisfaction is actually down to what most people would call personal "taste" (in the preference sense, not the good/bad one).

btw I very specifically said "seeming" on the "only one way" thing - a subjective emotional impression, not an assertion of fact.... but it occurs to me anything more I could say on this would probably make it worse.

edit: I left this one sitting for a really long time while I mulled it over, and ended up actually overlapping a later Blastaar post that clarified things a bit.. but it is getting late here, so I won't stay up to get into that right now.

last edited at Nov 22, 2020 7:41AM

circamore, you do so much projecting and speculating about my motivations that there’s really no point in me trying to clarify each of your individual misapprehensions one by one. (Your juvenile canard that I think “there is only one right way to tell a story” most of all.)

I think I’m a pretty clear writer, and I’ve already said what I have to say here.

Don't worry, your opinion of your own writing and critical skills is abundantly clear.

Once again I regret trying to engage, but take comfort in not being the only one who finds your meaning obscure.

I admit that my first response was cumbersome, but I think by second one was pretty simple.

afaics you have conceded the issue is not one of character or plot consistency, but in the way the characters are being used in the storytelling mechanics, and in the focus and tone of the story that is being told.
But these are consequences of the sort of story Citrus+ is.

So that simple question stands - are you criticizing Citrus+ as the story it is, or for failing to be the different story you wish Saburouta had written instead?

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

Except that it didn't. Citrus+ is not the same story, it may be in the same continuity, but it is quite deliberately a spin-off: a different story with a different tone, a different pace and different focus.

Of course, this is just mincing words.

Your description is accurate (as far as it goes) and so is mine--they're the same characters in the two series, with the same past, and the same motivations, and the same development, existing in the same setting. The later series may be a spinoff with a different focus than the first, but these are not "different" characters--they're characters who have been continuous from Citrus, Chapter 1 to Citrus +, Volume 3.

Nothing in Citrus + suggests that anything in Citrus has been retconned, rendered non-canonical, or declared null and void.

Double reply, since it occurred to me that I could perhaps have continued this thread in a much more succinct way:

Are you saying that your objections to Citrus+, rather than rather than problems with it as it is, actually boil down to the fact that it just isn't the spin-off direction that you wanted?

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

Except that it didn't. Citrus+ is not the same story, it may be in the same continuity, but it is quite deliberately a spin-off: a different story with a different tone, a different pace and different focus.

Of course, this is just mincing words.

Your description is accurate (as far as it goes) and so is mine--they're the same characters in the two series, with the same past, and the same motivations, and the same development, existing in the same setting. The later series may be a spinoff with a different focus than the first, but these are not "different" characters--they're characters who have been continuous from Citrus, Chapter 1 to Citrus +, Volume 3.

Nothing in Citrus + suggests that anything in Citrus has been retconned, rendered non-canonical, or declared null and void.

Just to be clear there are two domains here - storytelling tools, things like symbolism, structure, emphasis and manipulating tension for reader engagement (dramatic "pulse", 4 act narrative etc). Then there are storyworld elements such as characters and plots.

These of course all are author choices (and aren't entirely independent), but there is also authorial choice in how they are combined into the story, how storyworld elements filled into the dramatic tools and tools are used to bring the storyworld elements to the readers.

You can take the same dramatic form and plug in different worlds/characters/plots, and you can take the same words/characters and put them in different dramatic forms. Even with the same form and world you can still vary how the two sets relate focusing in different characters or plots even in the same style of story on the same events. The same characters can be used in very different ways in different stories, giving different perspectives on them, while still being very much the same.

If Citrus had been told from Mei's pov, there would have been more of an emphasis on Yuzu as a mysterious stubborn "driver".

In the original Citrus the rollercoaster of Yuzu and Mei's relationship was both the main long run plot focus and the main engine for episodic drama. As part of that dramatic engine, it was inevitable that Mei would be a "driver" in this context.

In Citrus+ the fact of their relationship is established. Although the growth their relationship is a recurring theme, it is most definitely not the dramatic pulse driving reader engagement scene by scene - it is a slow linear series arc (and cute couple-ey fanservice). Episodic drama is coming from side story plots involving supporting characters, Yuzu and Mei's "driving" will be mainly though their interaction with these characters.

Furthermore while Citrus was "Drama max" condensing the dramatic incidents and including many time skips, Citrus+ is slow slice of life with drama highlights. The entire run of the series to date (and how long Y&M have been back together) is from May 27-July 1, little over a month. I've had dirty dishes on my sink longer than that. Y&M are taking it slow for a reason; that urgent "sexy" edge in scenes from Citrus was grounded in insecurity and desperation - not a vibe either character would be eager to revisit.

I feel like that in insisting on the sameness between Citrus and Citrus+ you are missing the storytelling pluralism (in general your seeming insistence that there is only one right way to tell a story), and the potential for character evolution. With the switch to the new story, not only has Saburouta re-dealt the way she is using story elements in the storytelling, she has switched to an entirely different form.

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

Except that it didn't. Citrus+ is not the same story, it may be in the same continuity, but it is quite deliberately a spin-off: a different story with a different tone, a different pace and different focus.

my 10c worth: for me everything from deliberately drawing attention to Harumi's flawed relationship with her big sister at the start, to the hints at Matsuri secretly not coping at the end seems to point to this arc being about Harumi starting to find herself as a role-model/mentor big sister figure, and Matsuri learning to accept that sort of influence in her life.

Kids (even adults) need boundaries, and I think Matsuri is drawn to Harumi as the first person to consistently call her out on her shit. But I don't think it is romantic, not every human tie is based around sex (which is another thing Matsuri needs to learn). Both of them are being pushed outside their comfort zones (and since we now know Matsuri is a big sister, it is a role-reversal for both of them), it should be interesting.

I have to admit I find it strange to find people in a yuri focused site be against more official gay girls in a manga.

It is all fun and games until the shippers riot over the "betrayal" (or "bad writing") when it turns out their over-optimistically declared YAY!! CANNON!! ship wasn't canon after all.

But on a more serious note, I read yuri because I find female protagonists more relatable (f/f => double my value) and the relationships also often tend to hit the notes I like (power balance, emotional dynamic etc), but all and any f/f "just because", no thanks.
There are also other things I like, such as queer themes (identity/alienation, undermined if "everyone is gay"), but I don't want to go on forever.

Focusing on yuri also has the convenient effect of cutting the vast unmanageable universe of anime/manga possibilities to a more manageable locality.

A lot of people seem to feel that Mei got nerfed after the election arc. While I can understand that, I personally disagree. The way I see it, after the election arc is when Mei truly began to open up to Yuzu, but as she said in chapter 26, she doesn't know how to handle those feelings. She did start becoming demure from vulome 8-10, but that was because of the guilt she felt for going through with her arranged marriage.

Now, in Citrus+, we are seeing Mei start to act like her confident old self again, like when she told off her father for trying to give relationship advice, standing up to the academy board and declaring herself the first chairwoman, pushing over Yuzu to reveal her bruise, and shooting down Sayaka's attempts to criticize her changes to the school policies. of course, she still has moments of emotional vulnerability, like when she asked Harumin to help Yuzu because she understands her better. I believe Saburouta has found the perfect balance between Confident Mei and Vulnerable Mei with Citrus+, and I find this version of her to be both compelling and adorable.

Well said, saved me from making those points. Mei is a mess of contradictions, it has been explicitly noted as one of the things Yuzu loves about her - if people don't see that it is no wonder they feel the central story/pairing doesn't make sense.

If the purpose of writing is communication, the author did a piss-poor job of delivering that communication, because no one knows exactly what happened at the end of this "story." It doesn't matter how many people purchase a bucket of shit for $9.99, it's still a bucket of shit.

But it is probably good shit, if you are growing roses it might be just what you want. If you put it in your sandwich, then complain about it being shit, then that says more about you.

Then what does it speak of when that bucket-o-turd is being sold for putting onto bread (and people still, ahem, eat it up)...?

Or did you just assume that it was, because it was billed as nutritious - when consumed by organisms with needs different from your own.

last edited at Oct 23, 2020 5:29AM

circamoore posted:

If the purpose of writing is communication, the author did a piss-poor job of delivering that communication, because no one knows exactly what happened at the end of this "story." It doesn't matter how many people purchase a bucket of shit for $9.99, it's still a bucket of shit.

But it is probably good shit, if you are growing roses it might be just what you want. If you put it in your sandwich, then complain about it being shit, then that says more about you.

I love how you give up on addressing all the arguments that completely invalidate yours and choose to reply to easiest to refute.

Because people have been doing exactly that to any post where I put more than one paragraph, I was restricting my responses.

I have challenged people repeatedly to explain how (other than reader projection) the question of a real concrete relationship (or not) between Kaoru and Uta could be a central theme, when the possibility only entered the text in chapter 36, and I have been met with a resounding silence (once we exclude people deciding to pick on a context sentence for an easy win).

Not to mention the related point, also repeatedly raised - Uta and Kaoru started the story being tortured by their feelings, and ended the story having come to terms with their own feelings and eachothers - how is that not a resolution?

The writing has not been perfect. My central theme over and over again is that it is more useful to see the quality of the work as a nuanced multidimensional whole - an aggregate of strengths and weaknesses, successes and failures of storytelling, rather than to write off a flawed work as "bad writing". For many of us the strengths in this work outweigh the weaknesses - it is positive for us, "good", even if not perfectly so. Perhaps for you it isn't. That doesn't mean one person's taste is better than another, it means they are different.

Good, bad, strong, weak, succeed, fail - they can all only be judged in context, with a purpose, and everybody's context is different; some things work broadly, some things fail broadly but nothing is universal. People weight different points differently, have differing assessments of a particular point, and don't even use the same set of set of points.

Popularity/success of a work is a strong indication that it has "worked" for many people, that in their contexts it did something right.

The experience of different people reading the same work is connected, but also unique - that's fandom in all its ugly splendor.

I'm going to risk an analogy, even though they always seem to bite me in the ass. Let's talk about fun.

I expect there are a lot of neurodiverse people here (it is a forum for a web manga site after all; if you aren't, you know someone who is).
As a neurodiverse person Imagine some kind happy party-going extrovert butting in on whatever you are enjoying doing and telling you that you need to get out and have some fun. Imagine that well-intentioned but clueless bastard thinking they have the universal and exclusive definition of what "real" fun is.

Now imagine they are confidently asserting that the thing you enjoy is "bad" because it doesn't meet their expectations of it.

By all means talk about what does and doesn't work for you, but don't presume that people who perceive things differently are wrong or blind.

If the purpose of writing is communication, the author did a piss-poor job of delivering that communication, because no one knows exactly what happened at the end of this "story." It doesn't matter how many people purchase a bucket of shit for $9.99, it's still a bucket of shit.

But it is probably good shit, if you are growing roses it might be just what you want. If you put it in your sandwich, then complain about it being shit, then that says more about you.

last edited at Oct 23, 2020 1:40AM

So the entire editorial staff at Yuri Hime are sado-masochists blowing money on a useless series solely to torture their readership?

What a bizarre strawman. The magazine ultimately only cares about sales ergo audience opinion, and the paying public notoriously happily swallows much worse. like Citrus

The entire purpose of writing is to communicate with the audience, the idea that writing can be popular but bad is a complete oxymoron, founded in a superiority complex.

Ah, finally we come to it. Yes, when you create your own standards out of whole cloth like this, anything can meet them.

Bon appetit.

The purpose of writing is communication (to an audience), on what other basis could it possibly succeed or fail?

So the entire editorial staff at Yuri Hime are sado-masochists blowing money on a useless series solely to torture their readership?

What a bizarre strawman. The magazine ultimately only cares about sales ergo audience opinion, and the paying public notoriously happily swallows much worse. like Citrus

The entire purpose of writing is to communicate with the audience, the idea that writing can be popular but bad is a complete oxymoron, founded in a superiority complex.

edit: eg I may loathe popular reality television, but I'm not going to pretend it isn't an effective implementation of what it is.

last edited at Oct 22, 2020 4:36AM

tmnr has managed to tell a gripping emotional story,

I would say that this assertion—and exponentially so in regard to the ending—requires such a degree of projection by readers onto the story (as opposed to what is actually told on the page of the text itself), and such dedication to explaining away flaws and patching with headcanon gaps in the plot construction, characterization, and narrative structure as to constitute the opposite of “fanservice”: readerly authorservice.

So the entire editorial staff at Yuri Hime are sado-masochists blowing money on a useless series solely to torture their readership?

My Unresolved Love

It is true that "will they or won't they?" has been an obsession for some noisy fans, but there are probably others more interested in what sort of underwear they wear, neither should place an obligation on the author to deliver.

That's a ridiculous comparison.

I was originally going to compare to certain Citrus fans' conviction that the only legitimate development possible for Citrus+ is Yuzu and Mei having sex, but I though it was better to avoid bringing another series into it (particularly one that Blastaar is critical of). The point is fans often project their own preoccupations on to works independent of the actual content.

Judged by the standards of fanfiction I cannot say, since I have fairly limited experience with fanfic.

But judged by the standards of yuri mangaka who get to ply their craft over this many chapters of professional publication, I would call this a botched job by an inattentive author, one with a definite, albeit limited, flair for character conception and some scene construction, but with at best very erratic control over the pacing of chapters, consistency of plot and character detail, and structural proportion (as in lingering for pages over side issues and plot mechanics—getting a character from point A to point B, for example—then rushing through or abruptly ending crucially important scenes).

Doesn't that say as much about the "professional publication" as it does about the mangaka? As far as I know this was tMnR's first large work, so a level of inexperience is to be expected. One would expect an experienced mentor or hands-on editor would have helped but I don't know enough about the industry to know how realistic that is.

Finally, by posing a central narrative conflict and then not resolving it (and if properly developed any of the plausible outcomes would have been fine with me), the series ends with one of the most egregious authorial copouts that I have ever seen (worse even than Citrus, and that’s saying something).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you mean Uta's love being reciprocated or not. I feel like I'm repeating myself but how is that a central conflict? Before ch36 did Uta ever aspire to be with Kaoru? How can a conflict be something the protagonist doesn't even consider?

For 35 chapters being together romantically wasn't even conceivable for Uta, let alone a possibility. Even as she grew to value them, Uta never believed her feelings would actually lead anywhere. She started the story at war with herself wanting peace and believing she had to get rid her love to have it. At the end (ch 36) she achieved peace with her feelings, looking optimistically towards the future, regardless of how things might turn out with Kaoru, seems a lot like a resolution.

It is true that "will they or won't they?" has been an obsession for some noisy fans, but there are probably others more interested in what sort of underwear they wear, neither should place an obligation on the author to deliver.

As I said in another post a resolution one way or another would have been nice fanservice, but not mandatory. A lifetime of first level show-don't-tell writing has led us to expect that an internal emotional resolution will always be "shown"/embodied though an external one, but that is a convention not a fact.

circamoore posted:

A little goal oriented aren't we?

No clue where you got that from.

tmnr has managed to tell a gripping emotional story, and while it is a bit rough in places and the ending wasn't great, the nett experience is positive so I'm reluctant to call it bad.

You won't convince me that author that makes main character confess her love at the end of last chapter of the volume and then only in second chapter of next volume tells us how MC's unrequited crush reacted with just half page of flashbacks and narration is writing a good gripping emotional story. Leaving readers hanging and grasping for resolution for anything was a hallmark of this series. This author has no clue how to explore anything. Author of Hanigare do.

Everyone complaining here held on though 37 chapters, there must have been something there.

I have to admit I'm finding myself getting more and more sympathetic towards tmnr's decision to end ambiguously.

It would be frustrating to write a 35 chapter story about self discovery and emotional growth, only to have people's entire perception of it framed around whether they agreed (or not) with Uta ending up with Kaoru romantically (or not) in the last chapter.

circamoore posted:

I suspect this entire issue is a bit pointless, since I'm pretty sure the main reason for the lack of material on Kaoru's orientation (especially in the last chapter) is that the author was avoiding committing to a romantic outcome vs sororal.

The last chapter makes it very clear that Kaoru cherishes Uta's love for her, she even blushes when she talks about it. Her friends would presume she is talking about a hypothetical prince charming, but we know she is talking about Uta. That is about as far as it can go without committing to a romantic outcome.

I'm sorry, but then what's the point of entire manga? If you begin story with character being in love with someone they can't be with and tries to overcome it, the only satisfactory resolutions are that she accepts it and moves on, doesn't move on, but accepts it'll be forever unrequited (what first half of last chapter seemed to go with and honestly should have stuck with) or actually managed to make unrequited love requited (happy ending majority of readers here were hoping for). Ending entire thing without any kind of confirmation is literally leaving the story unresolved and robbing readers of any possible emotional climax to the story. And just to make it clear, I read this story for Uta's angst and fully expected for love staying unrequited. I was expecting the worst possible outcome and I still feel cheated by this lack of resolution and impact. Instead of people talking about how satisfying or not the emotional journey was, people instead are left questioning what this ending was even supposed to meant. You can't simply not give any reward to your readers after basic your entire story on emotional struggles of its main characters. Manga literally ended with the status quo it started with. Uta and Kaoru still live together, Uta still loves Kaoru and we still don't know whatever Kaoru will ever reciprocated Uta's feelings or not. That's definition of bad writing.

A little goal oriented aren't we? I won't say I wouldn't have preferred an ending that resolved the issue of Uta and Kaoru's relationship (preferably with them together), but I don't consider that it was required, which I suppose would make it fan-service, not that there is anything wrong with that. It would have been nice.

I have a feeling I said this many chapters ago, but the story is about dealing with feelings - the final external resolution is just a detail of the ending.

In a coming of age/quest story the protagonist goes on a dramatic journey, slays dragons etc - but that is just the medium in which their growth is painted - a literary device casting emotions into real action; at the end they return to the same town, the same people and sometimes even the same role, but grown - it is a change of perspective.

Uta starts out the story weighed down by self-loathing and guilt about her inappropriate feelings seeing them only as a burden that she must rid herself of. The story takes us on a long journey with her as she finds herself and her perspective broadens, first to recognize the happy moments, growing in understanding, articulating her feelings, embracing them as part of her identity (that she likes), and finally at the end shedding her guilt (ch36 she finally accepts her feelings as legitimate, possibly even requited one day) - dragon slayed. Then she returns home, still the same person, still in love with Kaoru, but changed and matured in her perspective.

Uta might hold on to her feelings, or not. Act on them, or not. But whatever way it goes she is at peace with them.

I'm not saying it has been an exemplar of good writing, but having been involved with fanfiction for decades I have a bar for bad writing that is on a whole other level. I prefer to dwell on what a writer has achieved in their story telling rather than what they haven't.

tmnr has managed to tell a gripping emotional story, and while it is a bit rough in places and the ending wasn't great, the nett experience is positive so I'm reluctant to call it bad.
As a fairly passive introvert, I'll even grant it an "interesting perspective" bonus in that I rarely see stories where a protagonist evolves primarily by introspection - thinking, watching and talking - rather than by doing.