Forum › Citrus + discussion

Rsz_file_000
joined May 20, 2019

A lot of people seem to feel that Mei got nerfed after the election arc. While I can understand that, I personally disagree. The way I see it, after the election arc is when Mei truly began to open up to Yuzu, but as she said in chapter 26, she doesn't know how to handle those feelings. She did start becoming demure from vulome 8-10, but that was because of the guilt she felt for going through with her arranged marriage.

Now, in Citrus+, we are seeing Mei start to act like her confident old self again, like when she told off her father for trying to give relationship advice, standing up to the academy board and declaring herself the first chairwoman, pushing over Yuzu to reveal her bruise, and shooting down Sayaka's attempts to criticize her changes to the school policies. of course, she still has moments of emotional vulnerability, like when she asked Harumin to help Yuzu because she understands her better. I believe Saburouta has found the perfect balance between Confident Mei and Vulnerable Mei with Citrus+, and I find this version of her to be both compelling and adorable.

But to each their own, of course. I know some people who claim to love Citrus but still hate Mei all across the board.

joined Oct 21, 2020

Random question but why do you guys think Matsuri is always so formal with Harumi ? She has never called her by her frst name unlike her other senpais. I kind of like it cos it means their bond is special.

More because all the weird tension between those two. Neither of them tends to act all that "natural" around each other.

While this is purely just my own inferred opinion, but I think it's probably because she knows Harumin doesn't really like her, and to portray the 'distance' between them to keep Harumin comfortable. In Japanese she uses polite speech to speak to Harumin, sure she drags an intonation or two, but the sentence structure and format falls within Japanese Keigo. Usually you use formal speech with people who are older than you, unless you are close friends. Matsuri is aware that Harumin doesn't like her, and so keigo is her way of keeping the distance between them comfortable.

Honestly if Matsuri were to suddenly break into casual speech patterns with Harumin, Harumin would probably be like "Geh! Why are you speaking so casually to me! -Sigh- well it's fine I guess..." I think in this case it's also more for her own sake. Matsuri has feelings for Harumin, has since vol 3, and has been constantly bugging and pestering Harumin but staying within Harumin's 'safe zone'. Keigo might be her own version of 'self defense mechanism' against going overboard and have Harumin pull away. Although if they do get closer and Harumin makes a comment like 'it feel kinda lonely that I'm the only one you're still so polite with' we might see some changes... Though Matsuri would probably stick to 'senpai' and we all know Harumin secretly likes being called senpai by Matsuri, despite trying to show otherwise.

Also, this is purely my own fantasy but I think that Matsuri will continue calling Harumin 'Taniguchi senpai' when they're in public and with their friends, and only switch to calling her "Harumi" in private. First name, not nickname, no honorifics.

last edited at Nov 20, 2020 11:47PM

joined Feb 14, 2019

A lot of people seem to feel that Mei got nerfed after the election arc. While I can understand that, I personally disagree. The way I see it, after the election arc is when Mei truly began to open up to Yuzu, but as she said in chapter 26, she doesn't know how to handle those feelings. She did start becoming demure from vulome 8-10, but that was because of the guilt she felt for going through with her arranged marriage.

Now, in Citrus+, we are seeing Mei start to act like her confident old self again, like when she told off her father for trying to give relationship advice, standing up to the academy board and declaring herself the first chairwoman, pushing over Yuzu to reveal her bruise, and shooting down Sayaka's attempts to criticize her changes to the school policies. of course, she still has moments of emotional vulnerability, like when she asked Harumin to help Yuzu because she understands her better. I believe Saburouta has found the perfect balance between Confident Mei and Vulnerable Mei with Citrus+, and I find this version of her to be both compelling and adorable.

Well said, saved me from making those points. Mei is a mess of contradictions, it has been explicitly noted as one of the things Yuzu loves about her - if people don't see that it is no wonder they feel the central story/pairing doesn't make sense.

joined Feb 14, 2019

I have to admit I find it strange to find people in a yuri focused site be against more official gay girls in a manga.

It is all fun and games until the shippers riot over the "betrayal" (or "bad writing") when it turns out their over-optimistically declared YAY!! CANNON!! ship wasn't canon after all.

But on a more serious note, I read yuri because I find female protagonists more relatable (f/f => double my value) and the relationships also often tend to hit the notes I like (power balance, emotional dynamic etc), but all and any f/f "just because", no thanks.
There are also other things I like, such as queer themes (identity/alienation, undermined if "everyone is gay"), but I don't want to go on forever.

Focusing on yuri also has the convenient effect of cutting the vast unmanageable universe of anime/manga possibilities to a more manageable locality.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

A lot of people seem to feel that Mei got nerfed after the election arc. While I can understand that, I personally disagree. The way I see it, after the election arc is when Mei truly began to open up to Yuzu, but as she said in chapter 26, she doesn't know how to handle those feelings. She did start becoming demure from vulome 8-10, but that was because of the guilt she felt for going through with her arranged marriage.

I’m quite familiar with the defense of the latter-day Mei on “realism/consistency of character” grounds. I don’t look at Mei as a imaginary person; I see her as an authorial construct, and as such I find her to be much less interesting and much more two-dimensional than she was earlier in the series.

I used to be genuinely curious about what Mei would do; now I’m just relieved when she does anything at all.

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 1:05AM

Soralaylaff
joined Oct 16, 2013

I'm happy we finally got HaruMatsu Canon (I've been looking forward to it since the first series because their Cat and Mouse dynamic is fun), but not sure how I feel about the kiss. On one hand I felt it was totally in character for it to be random like that from Matsuri, but on the other hand I still don't really get why she did it or got the urge to? Like I assumed it's because she was touched Harumin was worried and cared enough to check up on her, but even with the new translation, this chapter's dialouge was all over the place or too vague for me to understand what exactly was going on.

Also would've wished for more of a reaction from Harumin, but we already knew very few things Matsuri does actually phase her since she figures it's Matsuri acting up again.

I hope the later chapters will be able to clear things up their motives a little more, but I felt a bit disappointed with how it played out between the two.

67763073_p3
joined Dec 18, 2013

I’m quite familiar with the defense of the latter-day Mei on “realism/consistency of character” grounds. I don’t look at Mei as a imaginary person; I see her as an authorial construct, and as such I find her to be much less interesting and much more two-dimensional than she was earlier in the series.

Mei's characterization in Citrus Plus, is still the right approach from an authorial construct since is the logical evolution of her character both through the events Saburota laid before her to develop her character and the reveal of more facets of her character.

I find this criticism about Mei to be baffling. First Mei is a horrible character because she keeps ignoring Yuzu's advances and just acting out of her perceived selfish desires. Then Mei is shown to learn from her mistakes and work hard to make up for her previous actions while having a more open and honest relationship with Yuzu, and now she's a horrible character because she no longer has the "no fucks given" attitude.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

I’m quite familiar with the defense of the latter-day Mei on “realism/consistency of character” grounds. I don’t look at Mei as a imaginary person; I see her as an authorial construct, and as such I find her to be much less interesting and much more two-dimensional than she was earlier in the series.

Mei's characterization in Citrus Plus, is still the right approach from an authorial construct since is the logical evolution of her character both through the events Saburota laid before her to develop her character and the reveal of more facets of her character.

I find this criticism about Mei to be baffling. First Mei is a horrible character because she keeps ignoring Yuzu's advances and just acting out of her perceived selfish desires. Then Mei is shown to learn from her mistakes and work hard to make up for her previous actions while having a more open and honest relationship with Yuzu, and now she's a horrible character because she no longer has the "no fucks given" attitude.

See, this is still all judgements about an imaginary person—absolutely none of which I made, by the way. Mei is not a “horrible” character—she’s just not a source of significant narrative energy anymore. She’s passive, insecure, lacks communication skills that she used to have, and is no longer the driver of significant plot or character developments.

I’m not surprised that people find the quivering “broken bird” version of Mei appealing, but to me “nerfed” is absolutely a precise description of what the author has done to the character.

joined Jul 26, 2016

and now she's a horrible character because she no longer has the "no fucks given" attitude.

More like because now she no longer has any attitude, period.

Rsz_file_000
joined May 20, 2019

—she’s just not a source of significant narrative energy anymore. She’s passive, insecure, lacks communication skills that she used to have, and is no longer the driver of significant plot or character developments.

Also Mei in Citrus+: Stands up to the academy board declaring herself the first chairwoman, works with Yuzu to help Sayaka, convinces Harumin to go after Matsuri.

Just sayin’

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 2:50AM

joined Feb 14, 2019

my 10c worth: for me everything from deliberately drawing attention to Harumi's flawed relationship with her big sister at the start, to the hints at Matsuri secretly not coping at the end seems to point to this arc being about Harumi starting to find herself as a role-model/mentor big sister figure, and Matsuri learning to accept that sort of influence in her life.

Kids (even adults) need boundaries, and I think Matsuri is drawn to Harumi as the first person to consistently call her out on her shit. But I don't think it is romantic, not every human tie is based around sex (which is another thing Matsuri needs to learn). Both of them are being pushed outside their comfort zones (and since we now know Matsuri is a big sister, it is a role-reversal for both of them), it should be interesting.

joined Oct 21, 2020

I think the previous version of the translation made more sense...
Pg 00109 “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me”

This line is NOT SPOKEN BY HARUMIN! It’s spoken from Matsuri to Harumin. Seriously the translators aren’t new are they? They should have understood the speech patterns of each of the characters and gotten them down pat by now... Harumin refers to herself as ‘Atashi (あたし)’ Matsuri refers to herself as ‘Watashi (私)’ The line here in Japanese is ‘それは私を心配しての言葉なのか’ this is a Matsuri line. This bubble the next bubble and the following conjoined bubbles are spoken as as one line.

“Are you saying that because you’re worried about me?
or is this another one of your selfish ‘defensive instincts’?
By concerning yourself with the matters of everyone around you
Are you that desperate to be loved?”

Pg 00101 “I understand that Yuzu Chan is so worried to the point that she might come busting through my door at any moment”

Last page: “Is you choosing not to tell anyone your principle as a ‘Stealth Gyaru’?”

To be honest there’s a few more minor ones in between, especially the bridge scene which I mentioned earlier cuz everyone who’s translating it translates it as though Harumin is reprimanding Matsuri “go on loving ‘that part of yourself’” when it’s actually Harumin telling Matsuri that she needs to learn to love that part of herself that she’s hiding away so desperately to make sure no one sees through her facade.

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 5:06AM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

—she’s just not a source of significant narrative energy anymore. She’s passive, insecure, lacks communication skills that she used to have, and is no longer the driver of significant plot or character developments.

Also Mei in Citrus+: Stands up to the academy board declaring herself the first chairwoman,

Something she said she was going to do roughly 50 chapters earlier.

works with Yuzu to help Sayaka,

Yuzu talks Mei into letting her handle it, even though technically it’s her job as president

convinces Harumin to go after Matsuri.

Even though it’s technically her job.

“Mei displays effective administrative ability by delegating authority” isn’t quite the sort of thing I had in mind by the term ”narrative energy.”

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 5:31AM

005ejqrjgy1fzoq9y1j6fj319c1sw7sj-
joined Jul 6, 2018

bruh why still reading the series if u hate the plot and main character lol xD

anyways, I also think that the defensive instinct dialogue was spoken by Matsuri for it reflects with their convo on volume 3 extra

Rsz_file_000
joined May 20, 2019

“Mei displays effective administrative ability by delegating authority” isn’t quite the sort of thing I had in mind by the term "narrative energy."

Mei from earlier volumes would've likely tried to handle the situation herself be exerting her authority and trying to put Sayaka and Matsuri back in line. But Mei "delegating authority" to people she knows could handle the situation better, especially in Matsuri's case since she acknowledges that even Yuzu wouldn't have worked, shows that she's becoming more emotionally sensitive and knows when the time is right to be the strict authority figure. This was the case for Sayaka, who Mei only punished after Yuzu helped her come out.

TL;DR, Mei is showing emotions and is taking action when necessary, but at the same time is still developing as a character. Try as I might, I just can't see her with the criticisms you have no matter how many angles I look from.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

bruh why still reading the series if u hate the plot and main character lol xD

“Bruh,” why don’t you learn to read English?

I never said I “hate the plot,” and Mei hasn’t remotely been “the main character” for quite some time, as indicated by the fact that the original series went through its final arc with Mei almost entirely offscreen.

I did say that I once thought that Mei was the most interesting and vivid character in the story, and I don’t think that anymore.

bruh.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

TL;DR, Mei is showing emotions and is taking action when necessary, but at the same time is still developing as a character. Try as I might, I just can't see her with the criticisms you have no matter how many angles I look from.

Look, I get it. A story that goes from “A couple of hotties can’t keep their hands off each other” and then morphs into “A couple of Good Girls blush and stutter when looking at each other from across the room” apparently meets the requirements of many readers.

I personally don’t see it as the optimal development of the series’ potential narrative energy, but to each their own.

Soralaylaff
joined Oct 16, 2013

I think the previous version of the translation made more sense...
Pg 00109 “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me”

This line is NOT SPOKEN BY HARUMIN! It’s spoken from Matsuri to Harumin. Seriously the translators aren’t new are they? They should have understood the speech patterns of each of the characters and gotten them down pat by now... Harumin refers to herself as ‘Atashi (あたし)’ Matsuri refers to herself as ‘Watashi (私)’ The line here in Japanese is ‘それは私を心配しての言葉なのか’ this is a Matsuri line. This bubble the next bubble and the following conjoined bubbles are spoken as as one line.

“Are you saying that because you’re worried about me?
or is this another one of your selfish ‘defensive instincts’?
By concerning yourself with the matters of everyone around you
Are you that desperate to be loved?”

Pg 00101 “I understand that Yuzu Chan is so worried to the point that she might come busting through my door at any moment”

Last page: “Is you choosing not to tell anyone your principle as a ‘Stealth Gyaru’?”

To be honest there’s a few more minor ones in between, especially the bridge scene which I mentioned earlier cuz everyone who’s translating it translates it as though Harumin is reprimanding Matsuri “go on loving ‘that part of yourself’” when it’s actually Harumin telling Matsuri that she needs to learn to love that part of herself that she’s hiding away so desperately to make sure no one sees through her facade.

Thanks your translation makes the scene make a lot more sense to me now. Even not knowing Japanese, that line “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me” REALLY threw me off because it totally didn't make sense with the flow of dialogue. The motives behind their actions is a lot clearer now.

353310-my_neighbor_totoro-totoro-studio_ghibli-anime-748x598
joined Jul 16, 2013

I think the previous version of the translation made more sense...
Pg 00109 “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me”

This line is NOT SPOKEN BY HARUMIN! It’s spoken from Matsuri to Harumin. Seriously the translators aren’t new are they? They should have understood the speech patterns of each of the characters and gotten them down pat by now... Harumin refers to herself as ‘Atashi (あたし)’ Matsuri refers to herself as ‘Watashi (私)’ The line here in Japanese is ‘それは私を心配しての言葉なのか’ this is a Matsuri line. This bubble the next bubble and the following conjoined bubbles are spoken as as one line.

To be honest there’s a few more minor ones in between, especially the bridge scene which I mentioned earlier cuz everyone who’s translating it translates it as though Harumin is reprimanding Matsuri “go on loving ‘that part of yourself’” when it’s actually Harumin telling Matsuri that she needs to learn to love that part of herself that she’s hiding away so desperately to make sure no one sees through her facade.

THANK YOU ! I love reading your comments about HaruMatsu and your translation seems so on point.
I was really confused with the new version of this chapter because yeah it doesn't make any sense that Harumi is the one asking ''Are you saying that because you’re worried about me?'' and the conversation seemed really...disconnected ?
Thanks to you, this dialogue makes more sense.
Tbf this chapter seemed really hard to translate so I don't blame Chaosteam and I'm really grateful for their work.

Images
joined Nov 21, 2020

I think the previous version of the translation made more sense...
Pg 00109 “Matsuri, are you saying that because you’re worried about me”

This line is NOT SPOKEN BY HARUMIN! It’s spoken from Matsuri to Harumin. Seriously the translators aren’t new are they? They should have understood the speech patterns of each of the characters and gotten them down pat by now... Harumin refers to herself as ‘Atashi (あたし)’ Matsuri refers to herself as ‘Watashi (私)’ The line here in Japanese is ‘それは私を心配しての言葉なのか’ this is a Matsuri line. This bubble the next bubble and the following conjoined bubbles are spoken as as one line.

“Are you saying that because you’re worried about me?
or is this another one of your selfish ‘defensive instincts’?
By concerning yourself with the matters of everyone around you
Are you that desperate to be loved?”

Pg 00101 “I understand that Yuzu Chan is so worried to the point that she might come busting through my door at any moment”

Last page: “Is you choosing not to tell anyone your principle as a ‘Stealth Gyaru’?”

To be honest there’s a few more minor ones in between, especially the bridge scene which I mentioned earlier cuz everyone who’s translating it translates it as though Harumin is reprimanding Matsuri “go on loving ‘that part of yourself’” when it’s actually Harumin telling Matsuri that she needs to learn to love that part of herself that she’s hiding away so desperately to make sure no one sees through her facade.

Hi, I'm the translator here. I'm aware that it was Matsuri that said that to Harumin. In the first translation, I was hoping people would understand that it was Matsuri saying it to Harumin. However, I had to reword things to make it so it made sense as we busted it out so quickly that I didn't exactly have time to go over everything and finalize it. It was a mistake I made since I hadn't read Citrus in Japanese for a long time now so forgot that Harumin never refers to herself as "watashi". I understand the speech patterns, I immediately began rereading the first 2 volumes of Citrus+ in Japanese because of my mistake so I'm very adapted to them now. As soon as it was posted, I realized my mistake during the second process of the translation but by then it was too late and some people were just exhausted from the second rendition to fix it. Which is completely understandable so I didn't want to push it. I wanted to change the page and make it clear that Matsuri was saying this to Harumin, however I didn't want to pressure the typesetter to fix it since she's already done so much.

With page Pg 00101 I was having trouble wording that line so it didn't sound choppy which is why I cut out the "to the point" and changed up the translation a little. It was one of the lines I didn't like the wording of, but I was exhausted from my uni work and redoing the translation the second time, that I just kept it how it was.

With the "Go on loving "that version of yourself" as well" line, my typesetter preferred that wording however I did want to change so it fit the original translation which was Harumin telling Matsuri to learn to love that version of herself. So, I'm very aware that the translation does not quite fit to original.

As for the translation on the last page, the version I did is the correct translation. 選択 means to choose, a decision, selection, etc.. She's posing the question that if Harumin has chosen not to tell anyone, then doesn't it make her a stealth gyaru by that decision. This is proven by the しちゃう which is to complete something or do something without meaning etc.. (depending on the context it can mean quite a few things).

As a translator, sometimes you have to word things in such a way that's going to make sense in english. Although someone who speaks Japanese would think the previous translation made more sense, people who don't might be finding it difficult to follow the more literate translations, which is why I had to find a way to make this chapter make more sense. The first translation was more rough and my translations are usually not like that when I'm done with them. I was trying to make the conversations flow better in the second one. People were complaining about the first and I have heard many people say they found this version much clearer (aside from the mistakes that I would change if I could).

Our team has learned our lesson. We just got super hyped to get the chapter out to the point that quality kind of went out the window. Next time, we're going to have a different process and I'm familiarizing myself with the characters speech patterns again so this doesn't happen again. I was stressed out from my uni work, exhausted from no sleep and other things in my life as well as trying to pump the chapter out that I ended up doing a crappy job. It won't happen again and I'll make sure of it.

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possibly put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so no guarantees ):

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 11:38AM

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so guarantees ):

From my POV: no worries. Just thanks for all your work, and an extra thanks for making the effort to clarify things.

Images
joined Nov 21, 2020

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so guarantees ):

From my POV: no worries. Just thanks for all your work, and an extra thanks for making the effort to clarify things.

All good, thank you for your POV (:
I added some more clarification about what Matsuri said on the last page to my message if you want to check that out ^^

last edited at Nov 21, 2020 10:44AM

005ejqrjgy1fzoq9y1j6fj319c1sw7sj-
joined Jul 6, 2018

I can read the raws as well, Matsuri always speaks formally (Keigo), so the drop of honorifics on previous chaps bothered me, that's why I'm actually glad you guys kept the formalities (senpai) this time. Some context particularly on the bridge scene is indeed confusing, so I also don't blame the translators for those minor mistakes. And even if you guys fix it again, some people will still complain lmaoo xD
Thank you so much CT, I really appreciate your dedication, hardwork and great credits~<3

Images
joined Nov 21, 2020

I can read the raws as well, Matsuri always speaks formally (Keigo), so the drop of honorifics on previous chaps bothered me, that's why I'm actually glad you guys kept the formalities (senpai) this time. Some context particularly on the bridge scene is indeed confusing, so I also don't blame the translators for those minor mistakes. And even if you guys fix it again, some people will still complain lmaoo xD
Thank you so much CT, I really appreciate your dedication, hardwork and great credits~<3

Yes, I've heard many people who speak and read Japanese found the context on the bridge scene quite confusing. I'm glad I'm not the only one. I feel this is a fault of Sabu, I love her but it was confusing!
Thank you very much for your kind words <3

joined Oct 21, 2020

Sorry guys about all this. I might ask if we could possible put a note up for the next chapter explaining the mistakes, but we're all kind of just over this chapter at this point so no guarantees ):

I understand your struggles, Japanese is a difficult language, it is even more difficult for someone who’s not lived in Japan.

Just to note, I’m not native Japanese, it’s just that what I studied in Japan, and my major happens to fall in line with reading and understanding the character.
S of a story. To put in frankly, I was in Seiyuu school, vocation major in voice acting. My understanding of the language and character study had to go beyond and above that of the normal consensus. And it’s carried over to whenever I read Manga...

I read out the characters in my head and I imagine them actually speaking when I see words. And I tend to forget that not everyone has my experience in character study... and exposure to the language

I apologise for being so harsh.

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